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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You keep trying to squish Chaos Daemons in this to make some sort of point.

You know what a "false dilemma" is, right?

Wasn't that the point of "getting back to 3.5"? This is what people were arguing for is it not?

You know what 3.5 did? Squashed all daemons of the same type into one 'datasheet'. Horrors, Bloodletters, Daemonettes and Plague Bearers were all one item, for example. Things can be plenty condensed of you wanted it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You keep trying to squish Chaos Daemons in this to make some sort of point.

You know what a "false dilemma" is, right?

Wasn't that the point of "getting back to 3.5"? This is what people were arguing for is it not?

We're arguing for a return to the design philosophy of 3.5 for chaos space marines. A new codex could contain a few daemon entries, but if someone wants access to the full selection of daemonic units they can run them as soup with the chaos daemons codex.

 Insectum7 wrote:


You know what 3.5 did? Squashed all daemons of the same type into one 'datasheet'. Horrors, Bloodletters, Daemonettes and Plague Bearers were all one item, for example. Things can be plenty condensed of you wanted it.

Lots of stuff can be squished if you wanted to, but I think you'd have a hard time making such different units fit on one sheet - especially horrors.

You could sacrifice the weapon lists, but then I have to flip between a datasheet for a damage table and the back of the book and scan all the weapons to find the one I want.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


You know what 3.5 did? Squashed all daemons of the same type into one 'datasheet'. Horrors, Bloodletters, Daemonettes and Plague Bearers were all one item, for example. Things can be plenty condensed of you wanted it.

Lots of stuff can be squished if you wanted to, but I think you'd have a hard time making such different units fit on one sheet - especially horrors.

You could sacrifice the weapon lists, but then I have to flip between a datasheet for a damage table and the back of the book and scan all the weapons to find the one I want.

But how many daemons would you expect to be included in a csm codex? Your original page count included all the units, strategems, etc from the daemons codex. Wouldn't that be a bit much? Would you include all of the Custodes codex in a guard codex because they can be used as allies?

Don't lose sight of the real goal. Being spread over multiple books is annoying, but it doesn't really matter if we get decent rules. And nobody will care how optimized a book is if the faction isn't worth playing.

What matters is getting basic marine troops worth using again. Why talk of stuff like making chosen troops, but giving them less options? That's called a Chaos Marine, guys. They are already troops. How about making CSM good as troops, and Chosen good as elites? Don't reinvent the wheel, fix it.

And the fixes are another layer of special rules, just like vanilla marines got. And perhaps some point changes. Those special rules need to give some increases to firepower, and then there should be options for either more defensive, or further increases to firepower.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Don't lose sight of the real goal. Being spread over multiple books is annoying, but it doesn't really matter if we get decent rules. And nobody will care how optimized a book is if the faction isn't worth playing.

What matters is getting basic marine troops worth using again. Why talk of stuff like making chosen troops, but giving them less options? That's called a Chaos Marine, guys. They are already troops. How about making CSM good as troops, and Chosen good as elites? Don't reinvent the wheel, fix it.

And the fixes are another layer of special rules, just like vanilla marines got. And perhaps some point changes. Those special rules need to give some increases to firepower, and then there should be options for either more defensive, or further increases to firepower.

Because part of the problem is treating the two factions as mirrors. A rewrite of Chosen being troops establishes the lower numbers of the Legions but them being more elite as well.

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
consolidation isn't going to happen. it's clear GW's looking at expanding their armies not chopping it down

Correction consolidation isn't happening because more books to sell

potato potatoe. GW is a company and thus wants to make more money, right now they've detirmined the best avenue to that is a host of books, allowing for more focused armies. a decade from now they could indeed detirmine that consolidation is most important, but at the end of the day they're a mini gaming company and that means having gak to sell.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Don't lose sight of the real goal. Being spread over multiple books is annoying, but it doesn't really matter if we get decent rules. And nobody will care how optimized a book is if the faction isn't worth playing.

What matters is getting basic marine troops worth using again. Why talk of stuff like making chosen troops, but giving them less options? That's called a Chaos Marine, guys. They are already troops. How about making CSM good as troops, and Chosen good as elites? Don't reinvent the wheel, fix it.

And the fixes are another layer of special rules, just like vanilla marines got. And perhaps some point changes. Those special rules need to give some increases to firepower, and then there should be options for either more defensive, or further increases to firepower.

Limiting the options for chosen was predicated on them going to two wounds. But more rules could fix the problem, assuming gw doesn't give us another gak show like they did with loyalists.

What would you suggest? We don't just want a reprint of c:sm but with more spikes, after all.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Don't lose sight of the real goal. Being spread over multiple books is annoying, but it doesn't really matter if we get decent rules. And nobody will care how optimized a book is if the faction isn't worth playing.

What matters is getting basic marine troops worth using again. Why talk of stuff like making chosen troops, but giving them less options? That's called a Chaos Marine, guys. They are already troops. How about making CSM good as troops, and Chosen good as elites? Don't reinvent the wheel, fix it.

And the fixes are another layer of special rules, just like vanilla marines got. And perhaps some point changes. Those special rules need to give some increases to firepower, and then there should be options for either more defensive, or further increases to firepower.

Because part of the problem is treating the two factions as mirrors. A rewrite of Chosen being troops establishes the lower numbers of the Legions but them being more elite as well.

That's not what Chosen are though. You're looking for there to be a distinction between Legionnaires and Renegades, which there ought to be. But there's still a difference between Elite Legionnaires and regular ones. 'Chosen' is a higher rank even among older troops that denotes veteran skills, gifts, etc.

The proper solution is to have separate profiles for Legionnaires and Renegades, with the difference being a few points and a stat point here or there, and perhaps what Strats they can access. Chosen should be left as the elite units they are meant to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Don't lose sight of the real goal. Being spread over multiple books is annoying, but it doesn't really matter if we get decent rules. And nobody will care how optimized a book is if the faction isn't worth playing.

What matters is getting basic marine troops worth using again. Why talk of stuff like making chosen troops, but giving them less options? That's called a Chaos Marine, guys. They are already troops. How about making CSM good as troops, and Chosen good as elites? Don't reinvent the wheel, fix it.

And the fixes are another layer of special rules, just like vanilla marines got. And perhaps some point changes. Those special rules need to give some increases to firepower, and then there should be options for either more defensive, or further increases to firepower.

Limiting the options for chosen was predicated on them going to two wounds. But more rules could fix the problem, assuming gw doesn't give us another gak show like they did with loyalists.

What would you suggest? We don't just want a reprint of c:sm but with more spikes, after all.

There's several things that are needed. But first, there has always been a lot of similarity between the basic roster of chaos and loyalist marine infantry. This is fine. Its fine for CSM and Tacs to be basically the same units but with slightly different rules. There's so many other units out there now for both armies, and traits, strats and relics are so different, that we're in no danger of being just spikey marines, as was often complained about in the past. However, I think splitting CSM into Renegades and Legionnaires would address this problem. Renegades should be a bit cheaper than Tacs but with less special rules, and Legionnaires should be slightly more powerful.

Now, on to the problems that need addressing:

First, we need CSM infantry to catch up to where loyalist infantry is. For that, we need new, 2 part traits like they have. And we need something equivalent to doctrines. IE, roughly the equivalent of -1 AP, but in a less flexible form. And then some super doctrine equivalent if the whole army is Chaos Marines. Marks are an obvious option. Either on troops providing small buffs, or perhaps on characters buffing their auras (making Chaos more character-centric than loyalists, which would be appropriate.) For example, a normal lord gives re-roll 1's to hit to anything. But you could have the option to give the lord Mark of Khorne, which would boost them to full re-rolls, but only for <Khorne> <Legion> units (and perhaps khorne daemons.) Or instead of full re-rolls, perhaps re-roll 1's to wound instead as well as 1's to hit (but again, with new restrictions.)

Second, there's the problem that veteran units aren't viable. This is a problem for both loyalists and chaos actually. Even if CSM got what I say above, Chosen still won't be great. And we know that because Veterans aren't good for Loyalists. To fix this, we need a new veteran traits system for both loyalists and chaos. Or just give both another wound or something. The point is that this isn't just a Chaos problem, this is still a Marine problem.

With perhaps a better mono faction bonus for the legions who don't worship chaos and wouldn't take specific chaos marks?

Gadzilla666 wrote:
With perhaps a better mono faction bonus for the legions who don't worship chaos and wouldn't take specific chaos marks?

Something like that. The Legions vary so much that they basically each need their own mechanic.

Black Legion could use an existing Mark/Alignment system, and just ignore the restrictions of mixing units, etc.
Word Bearers should be able to align but not mark units, but get some really nice undivided bonuses.
Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warriors ought to have their own mechanics, but still have the option to align/mark units, but maybe at extra cost because it'd be stacking on their other bonuses.

This can be most easily handled by a 3.5 style system where you pay some price per model or per unit for rules, and then you can vary the price or even give it free if the army meets certain requirements. But I doubt GW is going to return to this model of rules because it'll be hard to make it work now that everything is cheaper, and they haven't used it anywhere else. And its a bunch of book keeping (although other things are too.)

I think it's more likely that whatever we get won't be this tailored to the specific legions. If we got Marks, it'd probably work the same on every legion, despite the fluff violations. Which wouldn't be ideal, but better than nothing still.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
With perhaps a better mono faction bonus for the legions who don't worship chaos and wouldn't take specific chaos marks?

Something like that. The Legions vary so much that they basically each need their own mechanic.

Black Legion could use an existing Mark/Alignment system, and just ignore the restrictions of mixing units, etc.
Word Bearers should be able to align but not mark units, but get some really nice undivided bonuses.
Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warriors ought to have their own mechanics, but still have the option to align/mark units, but maybe at extra cost because it'd be stacking on their other bonuses.

This can be most easily handled by a 3.5 style system where you pay some price per model or per unit for rules, and then you can vary the price or even give it free if the army meets certain requirements. But I doubt GW is going to return to this model of rules because it'll be hard to make it work now that everything is cheaper, and they haven't used it anywhere else. And its a bunch of book keeping (although other things are too.)

I think it's more likely that whatever we get won't be this tailored to the specific legions. If we got Marks, it'd probably work the same on every legion, despite the fluff violations. Which wouldn't be ideal, but better than nothing still.

Agreed. A 3.5 type system would be best, but probably more work than gw would want to put into it. Guess we'll take what we can get.

I'm of the opinion that people being interviewed to work at the GW Design Studio should be presented with a copy of the 3.5 Chaos Codex and left to read it for an hour.

As part of the following interview, they should then be asked if there are any elements they would look to use from it in modern design work.

If they answer with a yes, they should promptly be shown the door.

 Dysartes wrote:
I'm of the opinion that people being interviewed to work at the GW Design Studio should be presented with a copy of the 3.5 Chaos Codex and left to read it for an hour.

As part of the following interview, they should then be asked if there are any elements they would look to use from it in modern design work.

If they answer with a yes, they should promptly be shown the door.

ha and why is that?

From a design perspective it grasped perfectly what CSM should be.

What it also shows is the utter failure commonly associateable with GW at balance.


An better alternative, from the same company no less, one which still could easily teach GW a thing or two would be the IA 13 list that does preciscly that for Renegades and does so in a manner that is even dare i say, balanced no less in 7th edition?

 Dysartes wrote:
I'm of the opinion that people being interviewed to work at the GW Design Studio should be presented with a copy of the 3.5 Chaos Codex and left to read it for an hour.

As part of the following interview, they should then be asked if there are any elements they would look to use from it in modern design work.

If they answer with a yes, they should promptly be shown the door.

Show us on the bear where the Iron Warrior touched you.

 Dysartes wrote:
I'm of the opinion that people being interviewed to work at the GW Design Studio should be presented with a copy of the 3.5 Chaos Codex and left to read it for an hour.

As part of the following interview, they should then be asked if there are any elements they would look to use from it in modern design work.

If they answer with a yes, they should promptly be shown the door.

BuT Meh EthEr LanCE is FlUfFy!

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Don't lose sight of the real goal. Being spread over multiple books is annoying, but it doesn't really matter if we get decent rules. And nobody will care how optimized a book is if the faction isn't worth playing.

What matters is getting basic marine troops worth using again. Why talk of stuff like making chosen troops, but giving them less options? That's called a Chaos Marine, guys. They are already troops. How about making CSM good as troops, and Chosen good as elites? Don't reinvent the wheel, fix it.

And the fixes are another layer of special rules, just like vanilla marines got. And perhaps some point changes. Those special rules need to give some increases to firepower, and then there should be options for either more defensive, or further increases to firepower.

Because part of the problem is treating the two factions as mirrors. A rewrite of Chosen being troops establishes the lower numbers of the Legions but them being more elite as well.

That's not what Chosen are though. You're looking for there to be a distinction between Legionnaires and Renegades, which there ought to be. But there's still a difference between Elite Legionnaires and regular ones. 'Chosen' is a higher rank even among older troops that denotes veteran skills, gifts, etc.

The proper solution is to have separate profiles for Legionnaires and Renegades, with the difference being a few points and a stat point here or there, and perhaps what Strats they can access. Chosen should be left as the elite units they are meant to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Don't lose sight of the real goal. Being spread over multiple books is annoying, but it doesn't really matter if we get decent rules. And nobody will care how optimized a book is if the faction isn't worth playing.

What matters is getting basic marine troops worth using again. Why talk of stuff like making chosen troops, but giving them less options? That's called a Chaos Marine, guys. They are already troops. How about making CSM good as troops, and Chosen good as elites? Don't reinvent the wheel, fix it.

And the fixes are another layer of special rules, just like vanilla marines got. And perhaps some point changes. Those special rules need to give some increases to firepower, and then there should be options for either more defensive, or further increases to firepower.

Limiting the options for chosen was predicated on them going to two wounds. But more rules could fix the problem, assuming gw doesn't give us another gak show like they did with loyalists.

What would you suggest? We don't just want a reprint of c:sm but with more spikes, after all.

There's several things that are needed. But first, there has always been a lot of similarity between the basic roster of chaos and loyalist marine infantry. This is fine. Its fine for CSM and Tacs to be basically the same units but with slightly different rules. There's so many other units out there now for both armies, and traits, strats and relics are so different, that we're in no danger of being just spikey marines, as was often complained about in the past. However, I think splitting CSM into Renegades and Legionnaires would address this problem. Renegades should be a bit cheaper than Tacs but with less special rules, and Legionnaires should be slightly more powerful.

Now, on to the problems that need addressing:

First, we need CSM infantry to catch up to where loyalist infantry is. For that, we need new, 2 part traits like they have. And we need something equivalent to doctrines. IE, roughly the equivalent of -1 AP, but in a less flexible form. And then some super doctrine equivalent if the whole army is Chaos Marines. Marks are an obvious option. Either on troops providing small buffs, or perhaps on characters buffing their auras (making Chaos more character-centric than loyalists, which would be appropriate.) For example, a normal lord gives re-roll 1's to hit to anything. But you could have the option to give the lord Mark of Khorne, which would boost them to full re-rolls, but only for <Khorne> <Legion> units (and perhaps khorne daemons.) Or instead of full re-rolls, perhaps re-roll 1's to wound instead as well as 1's to hit (but again, with new restrictions.)

Second, there's the problem that veteran units aren't viable. This is a problem for both loyalists and chaos actually. Even if CSM got what I say above, Chosen still won't be great. And we know that because Veterans aren't good for Loyalists. To fix this, we need a new veteran traits system for both loyalists and chaos. Or just give both another wound or something. The point is that this isn't just a Chaos problem, this is still a Marine problem.

Which means you still fall into the trap of making them mirror factions still under your logic.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Don't lose sight of the real goal. Being spread over multiple books is annoying, but it doesn't really matter if we get decent rules. And nobody will care how optimized a book is if the faction isn't worth playing.

What matters is getting basic marine troops worth using again. Why talk of stuff like making chosen troops, but giving them less options? That's called a Chaos Marine, guys. They are already troops. How about making CSM good as troops, and Chosen good as elites? Don't reinvent the wheel, fix it.

And the fixes are another layer of special rules, just like vanilla marines got. And perhaps some point changes. Those special rules need to give some increases to firepower, and then there should be options for either more defensive, or further increases to firepower.

Because part of the problem is treating the two factions as mirrors. A rewrite of Chosen being troops establishes the lower numbers of the Legions but them being more elite as well.

That's not what Chosen are though. You're looking for there to be a distinction between Legionnaires and Renegades, which there ought to be. But there's still a difference between Elite Legionnaires and regular ones. 'Chosen' is a higher rank even among older troops that denotes veteran skills, gifts, etc.

The proper solution is to have separate profiles for Legionnaires and Renegades, with the difference being a few points and a stat point here or there, and perhaps what Strats they can access. Chosen should be left as the elite units they are meant to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Don't lose sight of the real goal. Being spread over multiple books is annoying, but it doesn't really matter if we get decent rules. And nobody will care how optimized a book is if the faction isn't worth playing.

What matters is getting basic marine troops worth using again. Why talk of stuff like making chosen troops, but giving them less options? That's called a Chaos Marine, guys. They are already troops. How about making CSM good as troops, and Chosen good as elites? Don't reinvent the wheel, fix it.

And the fixes are another layer of special rules, just like vanilla marines got. And perhaps some point changes. Those special rules need to give some increases to firepower, and then there should be options for either more defensive, or further increases to firepower.

Limiting the options for chosen was predicated on them going to two wounds. But more rules could fix the problem, assuming gw doesn't give us another gak show like they did with loyalists.

What would you suggest? We don't just want a reprint of c:sm but with more spikes, after all.

There's several things that are needed. But first, there has always been a lot of similarity between the basic roster of chaos and loyalist marine infantry. This is fine. Its fine for CSM and Tacs to be basically the same units but with slightly different rules. There's so many other units out there now for both armies, and traits, strats and relics are so different, that we're in no danger of being just spikey marines, as was often complained about in the past. However, I think splitting CSM into Renegades and Legionnaires would address this problem. Renegades should be a bit cheaper than Tacs but with less special rules, and Legionnaires should be slightly more powerful.

Now, on to the problems that need addressing:

First, we need CSM infantry to catch up to where loyalist infantry is. For that, we need new, 2 part traits like they have. And we need something equivalent to doctrines. IE, roughly the equivalent of -1 AP, but in a less flexible form. And then some super doctrine equivalent if the whole army is Chaos Marines. Marks are an obvious option. Either on troops providing small buffs, or perhaps on characters buffing their auras (making Chaos more character-centric than loyalists, which would be appropriate.) For example, a normal lord gives re-roll 1's to hit to anything. But you could have the option to give the lord Mark of Khorne, which would boost them to full re-rolls, but only for <Khorne> <Legion> units (and perhaps khorne daemons.) Or instead of full re-rolls, perhaps re-roll 1's to wound instead as well as 1's to hit (but again, with new restrictions.)

Second, there's the problem that veteran units aren't viable. This is a problem for both loyalists and chaos actually. Even if CSM got what I say above, Chosen still won't be great. And we know that because Veterans aren't good for Loyalists. To fix this, we need a new veteran traits system for both loyalists and chaos. Or just give both another wound or something. The point is that this isn't just a Chaos problem, this is still a Marine problem.

Which means you still fall into the trap of making them mirror factions still under your logic.

The marine statline is supposed to be the same for both, because they are both marines. Basically nothing else is mirrored. This was a silly complaint even in 5th when lots of the units were analogous, because the armies still played totally differently. And its even sillier now that there are primaris, daemon engines, cultists, allies, and tons of different traits, strats, and relics.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
Chosen moving to troops is an interesting idea. Would allow legions that can't take the cult options as troops some elite troop choices. But I think the options available to chosen would need to be curtailed a bit.

I could see that, if they were given two wounds. How exactly would curtail their options?

I would just reduce the amount of special weapons they can take. So 1 special per 5 models taken instead of just being able to take 4.

The Salt Mine wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
Chosen moving to troops is an interesting idea. Would allow legions that can't take the cult options as troops some elite troop choices. But I think the options available to chosen would need to be curtailed a bit.

I could see that, if they were given two wounds. How exactly would curtail their options?

I would just reduce the amount of special weapons they can take. So 1 special per 5 models taken instead of just being able to take 4.

Nobody would call Hellblasters broken if they were troops, so I doubt this would be an actual issue.

Undivided princes could be limited to only the smite power and denying enemy psychics, but to make up for it, they could have an option to take a weapon with the same stats as a maulerfiend's magma cutter but with a 24' range and being Assault D3 instead of Pistol 1, as well as maybe having a unique relic. Speaking of maulerfiends, they could also have the forge's daemon jaws attack on top of their other stuff, with the rules stating that they can make one additional attack with them in addition to the tendrils and fists. I don't think that it would make them OP, just improve them by a bit. As for forgefiends, there could be a rule that if they kill a model in a unit with their jaws, they can then immediately shoot again at any units within six inches of them, including the one they are in combat with. This fits with their fluff I think that they generate ammo through doing just that. This would obviously be most beneficial against infantry units, but could also unleash a nasty surprise against a unit that thinks it's safe, and would go a long way in upping the forgefiend's mediocre firepower.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Don't lose sight of the real goal. Being spread over multiple books is annoying, but it doesn't really matter if we get decent rules. And nobody will care how optimized a book is if the faction isn't worth playing.

What matters is getting basic marine troops worth using again. Why talk of stuff like making chosen troops, but giving them less options? That's called a Chaos Marine, guys. They are already troops. How about making CSM good as troops, and Chosen good as elites? Don't reinvent the wheel, fix it.

And the fixes are another layer of special rules, just like vanilla marines got. And perhaps some point changes. Those special rules need to give some increases to firepower, and then there should be options for either more defensive, or further increases to firepower.

Because part of the problem is treating the two factions as mirrors. A rewrite of Chosen being troops establishes the lower numbers of the Legions but them being more elite as well.

That's not what Chosen are though. You're looking for there to be a distinction between Legionnaires and Renegades, which there ought to be. But there's still a difference between Elite Legionnaires and regular ones. 'Chosen' is a higher rank even among older troops that denotes veteran skills, gifts, etc.

The proper solution is to have separate profiles for Legionnaires and Renegades, with the difference being a few points and a stat point here or there, and perhaps what Strats they can access. Chosen should be left as the elite units they are meant to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Don't lose sight of the real goal. Being spread over multiple books is annoying, but it doesn't really matter if we get decent rules. And nobody will care how optimized a book is if the faction isn't worth playing.

What matters is getting basic marine troops worth using again. Why talk of stuff like making chosen troops, but giving them less options? That's called a Chaos Marine, guys. They are already troops. How about making CSM good as troops, and Chosen good as elites? Don't reinvent the wheel, fix it.

And the fixes are another layer of special rules, just like vanilla marines got. And perhaps some point changes. Those special rules need to give some increases to firepower, and then there should be options for either more defensive, or further increases to firepower.

Limiting the options for chosen was predicated on them going to two wounds. But more rules could fix the problem, assuming gw doesn't give us another gak show like they did with loyalists.

What would you suggest? We don't just want a reprint of c:sm but with more spikes, after all.

There's several things that are needed. But first, there has always been a lot of similarity between the basic roster of chaos and loyalist marine infantry. This is fine. Its fine for CSM and Tacs to be basically the same units but with slightly different rules. There's so many other units out there now for both armies, and traits, strats and relics are so different, that we're in no danger of being just spikey marines, as was often complained about in the past. However, I think splitting CSM into Renegades and Legionnaires would address this problem. Renegades should be a bit cheaper than Tacs but with less special rules, and Legionnaires should be slightly more powerful.

Now, on to the problems that need addressing:

First, we need CSM infantry to catch up to where loyalist infantry is. For that, we need new, 2 part traits like they have. And we need something equivalent to doctrines. IE, roughly the equivalent of -1 AP, but in a less flexible form. And then some super doctrine equivalent if the whole army is Chaos Marines. Marks are an obvious option. Either on troops providing small buffs, or perhaps on characters buffing their auras (making Chaos more character-centric than loyalists, which would be appropriate.) For example, a normal lord gives re-roll 1's to hit to anything. But you could have the option to give the lord Mark of Khorne, which would boost them to full re-rolls, but only for <Khorne> <Legion> units (and perhaps khorne daemons.) Or instead of full re-rolls, perhaps re-roll 1's to wound instead as well as 1's to hit (but again, with new restrictions.)

Second, there's the problem that veteran units aren't viable. This is a problem for both loyalists and chaos actually. Even if CSM got what I say above, Chosen still won't be great. And we know that because Veterans aren't good for Loyalists. To fix this, we need a new veteran traits system for both loyalists and chaos. Or just give both another wound or something. The point is that this isn't just a Chaos problem, this is still a Marine problem.

Which means you still fall into the trap of making them mirror factions still under your logic.

The marine statline is supposed to be the same for both, because they are both marines. Basically nothing else is mirrored. This was a silly complaint even in 5th when lots of the units were analogous, because the armies still played totally differently. And its even sillier now that there are primaris, daemon engines, cultists, allies, and tons of different traits, strats, and relics.

Actually everything else becomes mirrored because of that exact problem, and are priced based on that. The exceptions are not the norm to look for.

The Salt Mine wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
Chosen moving to troops is an interesting idea. Would allow legions that can't take the cult options as troops some elite troop choices. But I think the options available to chosen would need to be curtailed a bit.

I could see that, if they were given two wounds. How exactly would curtail their options?

I would just reduce the amount of special weapons they can take. So 1 special per 5 models taken instead of just being able to take 4.

But keeping the ability to take a cc weapon in addition for all models? So primaris would win in a shootout but chosen would win in cc? I can see that thematically, but in game terms primaris would be superior because of how inferior cc is compared to shooting in 8th.

Used to be that all CSM could have bolter, bolt pistol and chainsword. I'd go back to that model and make the additional boltgun/chainsword cost a point.

As for Chosen, I don't see why they're limited in Combi/Special Weapons etc. when Sternguard and Command Squads are not.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Don't lose sight of the real goal. Being spread over multiple books is annoying, but it doesn't really matter if we get decent rules. And nobody will care how optimized a book is if the faction isn't worth playing.

What matters is getting basic marine troops worth using again. Why talk of stuff like making chosen troops, but giving them less options? That's called a Chaos Marine, guys. They are already troops. How about making CSM good as troops, and Chosen good as elites? Don't reinvent the wheel, fix it.

And the fixes are another layer of special rules, just like vanilla marines got. And perhaps some point changes. Those special rules need to give some increases to firepower, and then there should be options for either more defensive, or further increases to firepower.

Because part of the problem is treating the two factions as mirrors. A rewrite of Chosen being troops establishes the lower numbers of the Legions but them being more elite as well.

That's not what Chosen are though. You're looking for there to be a distinction between Legionnaires and Renegades, which there ought to be. But there's still a difference between Elite Legionnaires and regular ones. 'Chosen' is a higher rank even among older troops that denotes veteran skills, gifts, etc.

The proper solution is to have separate profiles for Legionnaires and Renegades, with the difference being a few points and a stat point here or there, and perhaps what Strats they can access. Chosen should be left as the elite units they are meant to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Don't lose sight of the real goal. Being spread over multiple books is annoying, but it doesn't really matter if we get decent rules. And nobody will care how optimized a book is if the faction isn't worth playing.

What matters is getting basic marine troops worth using again. Why talk of stuff like making chosen troops, but giving them less options? That's called a Chaos Marine, guys. They are already troops. How about making CSM good as troops, and Chosen good as elites? Don't reinvent the wheel, fix it.

And the fixes are another layer of special rules, just like vanilla marines got. And perhaps some point changes. Those special rules need to give some increases to firepower, and then there should be options for either more defensive, or further increases to firepower.

Limiting the options for chosen was predicated on them going to two wounds. But more rules could fix the problem, assuming gw doesn't give us another gak show like they did with loyalists.

What would you suggest? We don't just want a reprint of c:sm but with more spikes, after all.

There's several things that are needed. But first, there has always been a lot of similarity between the basic roster of chaos and loyalist marine infantry. This is fine. Its fine for CSM and Tacs to be basically the same units but with slightly different rules. There's so many other units out there now for both armies, and traits, strats and relics are so different, that we're in no danger of being just spikey marines, as was often complained about in the past. However, I think splitting CSM into Renegades and Legionnaires would address this problem. Renegades should be a bit cheaper than Tacs but with less special rules, and Legionnaires should be slightly more powerful.

Now, on to the problems that need addressing:

First, we need CSM infantry to catch up to where loyalist infantry is. For that, we need new, 2 part traits like they have. And we need something equivalent to doctrines. IE, roughly the equivalent of -1 AP, but in a less flexible form. And then some super doctrine equivalent if the whole army is Chaos Marines. Marks are an obvious option. Either on troops providing small buffs, or perhaps on characters buffing their auras (making Chaos more character-centric than loyalists, which would be appropriate.) For example, a normal lord gives re-roll 1's to hit to anything. But you could have the option to give the lord Mark of Khorne, which would boost them to full re-rolls, but only for <Khorne> <Legion> units (and perhaps khorne daemons.) Or instead of full re-rolls, perhaps re-roll 1's to wound instead as well as 1's to hit (but again, with new restrictions.)

Second, there's the problem that veteran units aren't viable. This is a problem for both loyalists and chaos actually. Even if CSM got what I say above, Chosen still won't be great. And we know that because Veterans aren't good for Loyalists. To fix this, we need a new veteran traits system for both loyalists and chaos. Or just give both another wound or something. The point is that this isn't just a Chaos problem, this is still a Marine problem.

Which means you still fall into the trap of making them mirror factions still under your logic.

The marine statline is supposed to be the same for both, because they are both marines. Basically nothing else is mirrored. This was a silly complaint even in 5th when lots of the units were analogous, because the armies still played totally differently. And its even sillier now that there are primaris, daemon engines, cultists, allies, and tons of different traits, strats, and relics.

Actually everything else becomes mirrored because of that exact problem, and are priced based on that. The exceptions are not the norm to look for.

I'm not clear on what you're saying here. What has become mirrored?

New Fabius Bile spotted at GAMA. Think this means anything other than a refresh of his sculpt?

Gadzilla666 wrote:
New Fabius Bile spotted at GAMA. Think this means anything other than a refresh of his sculpt?

Don't think it means anything to CSM's problems as far as I've been describing them here. Bile could come with a new option for enhancing CSM (or enhanced CSM unit), which could be fun. But even if its a good unit on its own, it won't address the overall problem of the faction. And it would be a shame if CSM infantry wasn't good normally, but was good with Bile's enhancement, as that would pigeonhole people into running Bile.

He could also mean new Noise Marine sculpt, which has been rumored. That'd be great to see, but also probably won't fix the overall state of CSM.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Don't lose sight of the real goal. Being spread over multiple books is annoying, but it doesn't really matter if we get decent rules. And nobody will care how optimized a book is if the faction isn't worth playing.

What matters is getting basic marine troops worth using again. Why talk of stuff like making chosen troops, but giving them less options? That's called a Chaos Marine, guys. They are already troops. How about making CSM good as troops, and Chosen good as elites? Don't reinvent the wheel, fix it.

And the fixes are another layer of special rules, just like vanilla marines got. And perhaps some point changes. Those special rules need to give some increases to firepower, and then there should be options for either more defensive, or further increases to firepower.

Because part of the problem is treating the two factions as mirrors. A rewrite of Chosen being troops establishes the lower numbers of the Legions but them being more elite as well.

That's not what Chosen are though. You're looking for there to be a distinction between Legionnaires and Renegades, which there ought to be. But there's still a difference between Elite Legionnaires and regular ones. 'Chosen' is a higher rank even among older troops that denotes veteran skills, gifts, etc.

The proper solution is to have separate profiles for Legionnaires and Renegades, with the difference being a few points and a stat point here or there, and perhaps what Strats they can access. Chosen should be left as the elite units they are meant to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Don't lose sight of the real goal. Being spread over multiple books is annoying, but it doesn't really matter if we get decent rules. And nobody will care how optimized a book is if the faction isn't worth playing.

What matters is getting basic marine troops worth using again. Why talk of stuff like making chosen troops, but giving them less options? That's called a Chaos Marine, guys. They are already troops. How about making CSM good as troops, and Chosen good as elites? Don't reinvent the wheel, fix it.

And the fixes are another layer of special rules, just like vanilla marines got. And perhaps some point changes. Those special rules need to give some increases to firepower, and then there should be options for either more defensive, or further increases to firepower.

Limiting the options for chosen was predicated on them going to two wounds. But more rules could fix the problem, assuming gw doesn't give us another gak show like they did with loyalists.

What would you suggest? We don't just want a reprint of c:sm but with more spikes, after all.

There's several things that are needed. But first, there has always been a lot of similarity between the basic roster of chaos and loyalist marine infantry. This is fine. Its fine for CSM and Tacs to be basically the same units but with slightly different rules. There's so many other units out there now for both armies, and traits, strats and relics are so different, that we're in no danger of being just spikey marines, as was often complained about in the past. However, I think splitting CSM into Renegades and Legionnaires would address this problem. Renegades should be a bit cheaper than Tacs but with less special rules, and Legionnaires should be slightly more powerful.

Now, on to the problems that need addressing:

First, we need CSM infantry to catch up to where loyalist infantry is. For that, we need new, 2 part traits like they have. And we need something equivalent to doctrines. IE, roughly the equivalent of -1 AP, but in a less flexible form. And then some super doctrine equivalent if the whole army is Chaos Marines. Marks are an obvious option. Either on troops providing small buffs, or perhaps on characters buffing their auras (making Chaos more character-centric than loyalists, which would be appropriate.) For example, a normal lord gives re-roll 1's to hit to anything. But you could have the option to give the lord Mark of Khorne, which would boost them to full re-rolls, but only for <Khorne> <Legion> units (and perhaps khorne daemons.) Or instead of full re-rolls, perhaps re-roll 1's to wound instead as well as 1's to hit (but again, with new restrictions.)

Second, there's the problem that veteran units aren't viable. This is a problem for both loyalists and chaos actually. Even if CSM got what I say above, Chosen still won't be great. And we know that because Veterans aren't good for Loyalists. To fix this, we need a new veteran traits system for both loyalists and chaos. Or just give both another wound or something. The point is that this isn't just a Chaos problem, this is still a Marine problem.

Which means you still fall into the trap of making them mirror factions still under your logic.

The marine statline is supposed to be the same for both, because they are both marines. Basically nothing else is mirrored. This was a silly complaint even in 5th when lots of the units were analogous, because the armies still played totally differently. And its even sillier now that there are primaris, daemon engines, cultists, allies, and tons of different traits, strats, and relics.

Actually everything else becomes mirrored because of that exact problem, and are priced based on that. The exceptions are not the norm to look for.

I'm not clear on what you're saying here. What has become mirrored?

The basic troop itself was mirrored, which therefore leads to the rest of the codex being based on that mirrored troop. CSM just being worse Loyalists as usual means that most of the tools and units from that statline end up being worse than the Loyalist counterparts. Not sure how that doesn't make sense.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Don't lose sight of the real goal. Being spread over multiple books is annoying, but it doesn't really matter if we get decent rules. And nobody will care how optimized a book is if the faction isn't worth playing.

What matters is getting basic marine troops worth using again. Why talk of stuff like making chosen troops, but giving them less options? That's called a Chaos Marine, guys. They are already troops. How about making CSM good as troops, and Chosen good as elites? Don't reinvent the wheel, fix it.

And the fixes are another layer of special rules, just like vanilla marines got. And perhaps some point changes. Those special rules need to give some increases to firepower, and then there should be options for either more defensive, or further increases to firepower.

Because part of the problem is treating the two factions as mirrors. A rewrite of Chosen being troops establishes the lower numbers of the Legions but them being more elite as well.

That's not what Chosen are though. You're looking for there to be a distinction between Legionnaires and Renegades, which there ought to be. But there's still a difference between Elite Legionnaires and regular ones. 'Chosen' is a higher rank even among older troops that denotes veteran skills, gifts, etc.

The proper solution is to have separate profiles for Legionnaires and Renegades, with the difference being a few points and a stat point here or there, and perhaps what Strats they can access. Chosen should be left as the elite units they are meant to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Don't lose sight of the real goal. Being spread over multiple books is annoying, but it doesn't really matter if we get decent rules. And nobody will care how optimized a book is if the faction isn't worth playing.

What matters is getting basic marine troops worth using again. Why talk of stuff like making chosen troops, but giving them less options? That's called a Chaos Marine, guys. They are already troops. How about making CSM good as troops, and Chosen good as elites? Don't reinvent the wheel, fix it.

And the fixes are another layer of special rules, just like vanilla marines got. And perhaps some point changes. Those special rules need to give some increases to firepower, and then there should be options for either more defensive, or further increases to firepower.

Limiting the options for chosen was predicated on them going to two wounds. But more rules could fix the problem, assuming gw doesn't give us another gak show like they did with loyalists.

What would you suggest? We don't just want a reprint of c:sm but with more spikes, after all.

There's several things that are needed. But first, there has always been a lot of similarity between the basic roster of chaos and loyalist marine infantry. This is fine. Its fine for CSM and Tacs to be basically the same units but with slightly different rules. There's so many other units out there now for both armies, and traits, strats and relics are so different, that we're in no danger of being just spikey marines, as was often complained about in the past. However, I think splitting CSM into Renegades and Legionnaires would address this problem. Renegades should be a bit cheaper than Tacs but with less special rules, and Legionnaires should be slightly more powerful.

Now, on to the problems that need addressing:

First, we need CSM infantry to catch up to where loyalist infantry is. For that, we need new, 2 part traits like they have. And we need something equivalent to doctrines. IE, roughly the equivalent of -1 AP, but in a less flexible form. And then some super doctrine equivalent if the whole army is Chaos Marines. Marks are an obvious option. Either on troops providing small buffs, or perhaps on characters buffing their auras (making Chaos more character-centric than loyalists, which would be appropriate.) For example, a normal lord gives re-roll 1's to hit to anything. But you could have the option to give the lord Mark of Khorne, which would boost them to full re-rolls, but only for <Khorne> <Legion> units (and perhaps khorne daemons.) Or instead of full re-rolls, perhaps re-roll 1's to wound instead as well as 1's to hit (but again, with new restrictions.)

Second, there's the problem that veteran units aren't viable. This is a problem for both loyalists and chaos actually. Even if CSM got what I say above, Chosen still won't be great. And we know that because Veterans aren't good for Loyalists. To fix this, we need a new veteran traits system for both loyalists and chaos. Or just give both another wound or something. The point is that this isn't just a Chaos problem, this is still a Marine problem.

Which means you still fall into the trap of making them mirror factions still under your logic.

The marine statline is supposed to be the same for both, because they are both marines. Basically nothing else is mirrored. This was a silly complaint even in 5th when lots of the units were analogous, because the armies still played totally differently. And its even sillier now that there are primaris, daemon engines, cultists, allies, and tons of different traits, strats, and relics.

Actually everything else becomes mirrored because of that exact problem, and are priced based on that. The exceptions are not the norm to look for.

I'm not clear on what you're saying here. What has become mirrored?

The basic troop itself was mirrored, which therefore leads to the rest of the codex being based on that mirrored troop. CSM just being worse Loyalists as usual means that most of the tools and units from that statline end up being worse than the Loyalist counterparts. Not sure how that doesn't make sense.

And its only a problem because they are worse loyalists. Mirrored stat lines wasn't a problem in 5th when they weren't worse. Which is why I'm advocating that CSM get rules to make them equivalent to what loyalists are again, as they have always been before.

It would be entirely possible for CSM infantry to NOT be mirrors of loyalist and still not be as good. The mirroring is not the issue.

Maybe stop quoting the quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote if you're just going to write 2 line replies.