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BrianDavion wrote:
can you not run a seperate detachment?

Why should that be necessary in the first place? Is that really the best defense for that you got?

As someone who played 1ksons and DG for years I agree with Slayer-Fan123 on the fact that they lost more than they gained with their codecies. Half of my armies for them became unplayable. For Deathguard I lost my bikers, havocs, obliterators, and terminators that I spent hundreds of $$ and a lot of time converting to be Deathguard. For 1ksons it was even worse since that codex is just a filler codex that zero effort was put into it. And no "JuSt TaKe An CsM dEtAtChMeNt!!!" isn't the answer as now I have to spend even more points on HQ units and other filler units that I wouldn't have had to before. My armies literally became illegal and unplayable over night and I was forced to spend even more money to make them playable.

This is made even more galling by the fact that every single loyalist space marine release in 8th has been here are all these units you didn't have access too in your specialist SM army that now you do have access too!!! Why can I not take all the new stuff that buffs daemon engines in my 1ksons army when half of my fething codex is all the daemon engines.

As a primary chaos player... who primarily played death guard and thousand sons, this is one reason why my 40k stuff was sold off.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
can you not run a seperate detachment?

Why should that be necessary in the first place? Is that really the best defense for that you got?

The idea that there can be units inside your own Codex that makes it so you can't use the rules in your own Codex is blatantly silly.

The Salt Mine wrote:
As someone who played 1ksons and DG for years I agree with Slayer-Fan123 on the fact that they lost more than they gained with their codecies. Half of my armies for them became unplayable. For Deathguard I lost my bikers, havocs, obliterators, and terminators that I spent hundreds of $$ and a lot of time converting to be Deathguard. For 1ksons it was even worse since that codex is just a filler codex that zero effort was put into it. And no "JuSt TaKe An CsM dEtAtChMeNt!!!" isn't the answer as now I have to spend even more points on HQ units and other filler units that I wouldn't have had to before. My armies literally became illegal and unplayable over night and I was forced to spend even more money to make them playable.

This is made even more galling by the fact that every single loyalist space marine release in 8th has been here are all these units you didn't have access too in your specialist SM army that now you do have access too!!! Why can I not take all the new stuff that buffs daemon engines in my 1ksons army when half of my fething codex is all the daemon engines.

That is certainly a raw deal you were dealt. I mean you could also run your army as some custom warband devoted to Nurgle/Tzeentch respectively. But even that is a lesser, option to just having a your models used how they always had been. Still, I think it could be fun to come up with your own splinter warband that disagreed so vehemently with what their parent legion was doing as to completely dissociate with them. It isn't even like you couldn't make use of Plague Marines. They would just be an Elites option. You would also get your pick of legion traits since it is your warband. Sure, Codex: Space Marine successor chapter tactics choices would be preferred, but I could see going with Alpha Legion as your warband is constantly enveloped in plague flies making getting a clear shot difficult or any other to given ideas to how they might work.

There is no good answers as I could potentially see vanilla CSM players, at least the non-Black Legion ones, could be unhappy that DG/TS gets their codex plus C:CSM. It would also work if GW gave all Chaos legions special units, but we know that isn't happening on any sensible timeline. I have a Night Lords player I still apologize to as I think Haarken should have been for them. I think even that could have been avoided if all Legions had signature units made Troop options. But that isn't what GW did. Unlike loyalists, the legion split is so recent that many players would have armies that are no longer valid like yours.

All I can offer is if you happened to play me I have no issue with units that are C:CSM but not CG or C:TS can be taken as if they were, or you run detachments or a custom warband, whatever you think would best fit your vision for your army. I personally don't think DG/TS having all the CSM options is going to make that big of a difference as with Allies, it mostly just saves a detachment anyways. Again, no good answers without GW doing something, which I never think grumbling on a 3rd party forum is going to affect GW.

As someone who played 1ksons and DG for years I agree with Slayer-Fan123 on the fact that they lost more than they gained with their codecies. Half of my armies for them became unplayable. For Deathguard I lost my bikers, havocs, obliterators, and terminators that I spent hundreds of $$ and a lot of time converting to be Deathguard. For 1ksons it was even worse since that codex is just a filler codex that zero effort was put into it. And no "JuSt TaKe An CsM dEtAtChMeNt!!!" isn't the answer as now I have to spend even more points on HQ units and other filler units that I wouldn't have had to before. My armies literally became illegal and unplayable over night and I was forced to spend even more money to make them playable.

But you can still play ... that ... exact ... army. Just give them the keyword "14th" or similar. That army still plays EXACTLY how it played in previous editions. You don't get all the new DG stuff in the same detachment, but then, you never had all the new DG stuff sooooooo ....... What did you lose?

I'm not saying it's a perfect system but damn .... "HALF MY ARMY IS INVALIDATED! RAAAAAAAAR!!!!!" No. It isn't. At one point going from fifth to sixth half of my CSM truly DID get invalidated as models were removed from the game entirely, and/or drastic rules shifts made things not work right anymore. THAT sucks, but it's entirely different than this.

It's also less than perfect that you can't give the CSM units the "Death Guard" keyword. Agree on that. But your army is still entirely playable as it was previously. You didn't ACTUALLY lose a thing .... My units that were painted up as DG are now Purge, and work great. There's even some good synergy between the too (to a degree). BUT on top of that, I now ALSO have access to a bunch of awesome fun stuff .... not sure how I can personally look at that and say "WE LOST SO MUCH!", but to each his own. I'm sorry for your loss.

You said they lost nothing, except they DID lose a bunch of stuff, and then you say ally in a bunch of non-Death Guard, which means they did lose stuff.

Ok.

Also you have zero info on what Emperors Children and World Eaters have. Hell, World Eaters have access to Obliterators!

I have no idea what you mean by this ...

Your attitude is also what allows GW to create the garbage that IS Psychic Awakening, which is the worst form of paid update we've seen in the game quite frankly.

Sincerest apologies. I had no idea!

Back when the travesty of a codex that was the 6th ed. CSM book was released, and all the CSM players (myself included) railed against how terrible it was on every level, I get very tired of hearing "BUT CHAOS PLAYERS ARE JUST NEVER HAPPY! YOU JUST WANT TO PoWerGaME!". Which, at the time, I found rediculous. Most of us just wanted a better codex that made sense for the edition it was in, didn't outright suck on the table (or actually punish the player for using it), and be a decent example of how CHaos works in the fluff. I feel like we're finally getting that, and everyone is STILL up in arms over it. Maybe it is impossible to please us? I mean, yeah, the difference in the design strategy between this book and the marine stuff is pretty drastic, and the loyalist books are for certain handled way better, but the longer we go, the more convinced I am that we, as the CSM player base, truly will, never be happy ...

Good luck with the rest of the thread.

No I can't play THAT EXACT army because I CAN"T TAKE RUBRICS OR PLAGUE MARINES AS TROOPS in any other army but DG and 1KSONS. Half my army did get invalidated because IF I WANT TO PLAY WITH MY RUBRICS AND PLAGUEMARINES AS TROOPS LIKE I HAVE FOR YEARS I CAN NO LONGER TAKE THEM WITHOUT WASTING POINTS AND DETACHMENTS ON gak I NEVER HAD TO BEFORE. How hard is that to understand?

Also lets not even mention most events require you to have 100% of the models in your army be of a single faction if you want to be counted as that faction. I want to play my 1ksons whelp cant take those oblits and havocs I converted up.

The Salt Mine wrote:
As someone who played 1ksons and DG for years I agree with Slayer-Fan123 on the fact that they lost more than they gained with their codecies. Half of my armies for them became unplayable. For Deathguard I lost my bikers, havocs, obliterators, and terminators that I spent hundreds of $$ and a lot of time converting to be Deathguard. For 1ksons it was even worse since that codex is just a filler codex that zero effort was put into it. And no "JuSt TaKe An CsM dEtAtChMeNt!!!" isn't the answer as now I have to spend even more points on HQ units and other filler units that I wouldn't have had to before. My armies literally became illegal and unplayable over night and I was forced to spend even more money to make them playable.

This is made even more galling by the fact that every single loyalist space marine release in 8th has been here are all these units you didn't have access too in your specialist SM army that now you do have access too!!! Why can I not take all the new stuff that buffs daemon engines in my 1ksons army when half of my fething codex is all the daemon engines.

Why can’t you just use units from the CSM codex and give then the Death Guard keyword in the legion slot. Does the DG codex explicitly deny this? Because I’m pretty sure you can play a death guard army straight from the CSM codex as plague bearers are in there and you can give any unit any legion in the legion keyword

mrFickle wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
As someone who played 1ksons and DG for years I agree with Slayer-Fan123 on the fact that they lost more than they gained with their codecies. Half of my armies for them became unplayable. For Deathguard I lost my bikers, havocs, obliterators, and terminators that I spent hundreds of $$ and a lot of time converting to be Deathguard. For 1ksons it was even worse since that codex is just a filler codex that zero effort was put into it. And no "JuSt TaKe An CsM dEtAtChMeNt!!!" isn't the answer as now I have to spend even more points on HQ units and other filler units that I wouldn't have had to before. My armies literally became illegal and unplayable over night and I was forced to spend even more money to make them playable.

This is made even more galling by the fact that every single loyalist space marine release in 8th has been here are all these units you didn't have access too in your specialist SM army that now you do have access too!!! Why can I not take all the new stuff that buffs daemon engines in my 1ksons army when half of my fething codex is all the daemon engines.

Why can’t you just use units from the CSM codex and give then the Death Guard keyword in the legion slot. Does the DG codex explicitly deny this? Because I’m pretty sure you can play a death guard army straight from the CSM codex as plague bearers are in there and you can give any unit any legion in the legion keyword

No , you can not thanks to the keywords system

Tycho wrote:

As someone who played 1ksons and DG for years I agree with Slayer-Fan123 on the fact that they lost more than they gained with their codecies. Half of my armies for them became unplayable. For Deathguard I lost my bikers, havocs, obliterators, and terminators that I spent hundreds of $$ and a lot of time converting to be Deathguard. For 1ksons it was even worse since that codex is just a filler codex that zero effort was put into it. And no "JuSt TaKe An CsM dEtAtChMeNt!!!" isn't the answer as now I have to spend even more points on HQ units and other filler units that I wouldn't have had to before. My armies literally became illegal and unplayable over night and I was forced to spend even more money to make them playable.

But you can still play ... that ... exact ... army. Just give them the keyword "14th" or similar. That army still plays EXACTLY how it played in previous editions. You don't get all the new DG stuff in the same detachment, but then, you never had all the new DG stuff sooooooo ....... What did you lose?

I'm not saying it's a perfect system but damn .... "HALF MY ARMY IS INVALIDATED! RAAAAAAAAR!!!!!" No. It isn't. At one point going from fifth to sixth half of my CSM truly DID get invalidated as models were removed from the game entirely, and/or drastic rules shifts made things not work right anymore. THAT sucks, but it's entirely different than this.

It's also less than perfect that you can't give the CSM units the "Death Guard" keyword. Agree on that. But your army is still entirely playable as it was previously. You didn't ACTUALLY lose a thing .... My units that were painted up as DG are now Purge, and work great. There's even some good synergy between the too (to a degree). BUT on top of that, I now ALSO have access to a bunch of awesome fun stuff .... not sure how I can personally look at that and say "WE LOST SO MUCH!", but to each his own. I'm sorry for your loss.

You said they lost nothing, except they DID lose a bunch of stuff, and then you say ally in a bunch of non-Death Guard, which means they did lose stuff.

Ok.

Also you have zero info on what Emperors Children and World Eaters have. Hell, World Eaters have access to Obliterators!

I have no idea what you mean by this ...

Your attitude is also what allows GW to create the garbage that IS Psychic Awakening, which is the worst form of paid update we've seen in the game quite frankly.

Sincerest apologies. I had no idea!

Back when the travesty of a codex that was the 6th ed. CSM book was released, and all the CSM players (myself included) railed against how terrible it was on every level, I get very tired of hearing "BUT CHAOS PLAYERS ARE JUST NEVER HAPPY! YOU JUST WANT TO PoWerGaME!". Which, at the time, I found rediculous. Most of us just wanted a better codex that made sense for the edition it was in, didn't outright suck on the table (or actually punish the player for using it), and be a decent example of how CHaos works in the fluff. I feel like we're finally getting that, and everyone is STILL up in arms over it. Maybe it is impossible to please us? I mean, yeah, the difference in the design strategy between this book and the marine stuff is pretty drastic, and the loyalist books are for certain handled way better, but the longer we go, the more convinced I am that we, as the CSM player base, truly will, never be happy ...

Good luck with the rest of the thread.

I think this is a great post and I agree with you mostly. After a decade or more of inept design choices and uncaring on GW's part to make us anything other than a punching bag for loyalists, alot of us have taken on a bit of a victim complex. Myself included. In truth this edition is the best we have had since the glory days. But that does not mean somethings are still gaf. For instance, and my favorite personal bitching point, is no drop pods in a army that is crying for ways to transport their melee heavy force outside of walking and rhinos. My point being is the faction is still thrown bones by GW and our releases, when we get them, are poorly planned and end up offering us nothing to fix what is wrong.

Now, as a chaos player I feel that other chaos players need to understand that Chaos is NEVER going to be on the level of loyalists. Ever. If you have a problem with this you need to find another army. I accept I am playing a sub optimal force but that doesnt prevent me from calling out the issue. I try to keep the bitching local to threads were it is warranted. I think it is possible to please us. But GW will not expend the effort to do so. Our sales just are not there.

I think this is a great post and I agree with you mostly. After a decade or more of inept design choices and uncaring on GW's part to make us anything other than a punching bag for loyalists, alot of us have taken on a bit of a victim complex. Myself included. In truth this edition is the best we have had since the glory days. But that does not mean somethings are still gaf. For instance, and my favorite personal bitching point, is no drop pods in a army that is crying for ways to transport their melee heavy force outside of walking and rhinos. My point being is the faction is still thrown bones by GW and our releases, when we get them, are poorly planned and end up offering us nothing to fix what is wrong.

Now, as a chaos player I feel that other chaos players need to understand that Chaos is NEVER going to be on the level of loyalists. Ever. If you have a problem with this you need to find another army. I accept I am playing a sub optimal force but that doesnt prevent me from calling out the issue. I try to keep the bitching local to threads were it is warranted. I think it is possible to please us. But GW will not expend the effort to do so. Our sales just are not there.

CSM in 8th are infinitely better than the gak show that was 6th and 7th edition for sure. And to be completely honest for a good portion of 8th CSM were actually way better than the loyalists. I think the big thing that is causing so much butthurt at the moment for chaos players and xenos player to an extent is the blatant favoritism being displayed towards IOM forces right now. For instance as I mentioned earlier almost every SM release in 8th has been here are all the things from the base SM codex your special SM codex never had access too. Where as the two new CSM codex last access to all the things they had access to from when they were in the CSM codex which was hugely frustrating for many people. Another example is the gak show that has been "Psychic Awakening" which may as well have been called "Loyalist Space Marine Awakening". Now its even more annoying as another IOM army is getting an entirely whole new set of models (admech). There are so many more armies that are both older than admech and IMO more important that admech that need new models and updates Necrons come to mind here. And lets not even get into the disparity between CSM codex 2.0 and SM codex 2.0 which was so broken it totally reshaped the competitive 40k scene over night.

The Salt Mine wrote:

I think this is a great post and I agree with you mostly. After a decade or more of inept design choices and uncaring on GW's part to make us anything other than a punching bag for loyalists, alot of us have taken on a bit of a victim complex. Myself included. In truth this edition is the best we have had since the glory days. But that does not mean somethings are still gaf. For instance, and my favorite personal bitching point, is no drop pods in a army that is crying for ways to transport their melee heavy force outside of walking and rhinos. My point being is the faction is still thrown bones by GW and our releases, when we get them, are poorly planned and end up offering us nothing to fix what is wrong.

Now, as a chaos player I feel that other chaos players need to understand that Chaos is NEVER going to be on the level of loyalists. Ever. If you have a problem with this you need to find another army. I accept I am playing a sub optimal force but that doesnt prevent me from calling out the issue. I try to keep the bitching local to threads were it is warranted. I think it is possible to please us. But GW will not expend the effort to do so. Our sales just are not there.

CSM in 8th are infinitely better than the gak show that was 6th and 7th edition for sure. And to be completely honest for a good portion of 8th CSM were actually way better than the loyalists. I think the big thing that is causing so much butthurt at the moment for chaos players and xenos player to an extent is the blatant favoritism being displayed towards IOM forces right now. For instance as I mentioned earlier almost every SM release in 8th has been here are all the things from the base SM codex your special SM codex never had access too. Where as the two new CSM codex last access to all the things they had access to from when they were in the CSM codex which was hugely frustrating for many people. Another example is the gak show that has been "Psychic Awakening" which may as well have been called "Loyalist Space Marine Awakening". Now its even more annoying as another IOM army is getting an entirely whole new set of models (admech). There are so many more armies that are both older than admech and IMO more important that admech that need new models and updates Necrons come to mind here. And lets not even get into the disparity between CSM codex 2.0 and SM codex 2.0 which was so broken it totally reshaped the competitive 40k scene over night.

Not even called for for Admech or Sisters tbh. That atleast is Fresh and actually new, and not just upscalled better because 10$ pricier marine stuff.

However, faction wide fillling up slots and auxilia would do them some favour.

F.e. R&H got completly cut out of the picture, making any attempt at building lost and the damned ( a HUGE PART OF THE LORE MIND YOU) basically impossible thanks to internal politicking.

We have yet to see an allied Race to TAU. that is actually you know, allied.

CSM still lack codex coverage, heck we got IW and daemonforges, yet we can't figure out to build a greater HAVOC hwacha. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwacha nor do we have any actual infiltraiting units, even though we got AL supposedly.

Eldar have everything but it's ancient, or in the case of the new banshees just outright taking the piss pricewise. And i am betting my hat on it that it is actually done to drive a point home in GW, aka selling new Eldar kits is not worht the effort.

Ghazkull is so geniously written atm, the new one that he can't even Waaagh! propperly. Like WTF?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
can you not run a seperate detachment?

Why should that be necessary in the first place? Is that really the best defense for that you got?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
can you not run a seperate detachment?

Why should that be necessary in the first place? Is that really the best defense for that you got?

The idea that there can be units inside your own Codex that makes it so you can't use the rules in your own Codex is blatantly silly.

The datasheets are not there so you can use them in detachments. The datasheets are there so you can use Daemonic Ritual without needing to buy another book.

I think that was stated in a WC blog post or designer's commentary or something.

The Salt Mine wrote:As someone who played 1ksons and DG for years I agree with Slayer-Fan123 on the fact that they lost more than they gained with their codecies. Half of my armies for them became unplayable. For Deathguard I lost my bikers, havocs, obliterators, and terminators that I spent hundreds of $$ and a lot of time converting to be Deathguard. For 1ksons it was even worse since that codex is just a filler codex that zero effort was put into it. And no "JuSt TaKe An CsM dEtAtChMeNt!!!" isn't the answer as now I have to spend even more points on HQ units and other filler units that I wouldn't have had to before. My armies literally became illegal and unplayable over night and I was forced to spend even more money to make them playable.

This is made even more galling by the fact that every single loyalist space marine release in 8th has been here are all these units you didn't have access too in your specialist SM army that now you do have access too!!! Why can I not take all the new stuff that buffs daemon engines in my 1ksons army when half of my fething codex is all the daemon engines.

Nothing is ever gained by comparing CSM to SM. Just more frustration.

DG and TS did lose a lot by getting their own Codex. Long term, it's probably a gain - having their own Codex means GW will eventually expand their line with unique units. But I would hate to have invested in a bunch of Deredeos and Leviathans and not be able to use them.

Unlike my poor Black Legion. All we get are characters. We don't even have the conversion compulsion characteristic of armies without unique characters.

The Salt Mine wrote:

I think this is a great post and I agree with you mostly. After a decade or more of inept design choices and uncaring on GW's part to make us anything other than a punching bag for loyalists, alot of us have taken on a bit of a victim complex. Myself included. In truth this edition is the best we have had since the glory days. But that does not mean somethings are still gaf. For instance, and my favorite personal bitching point, is no drop pods in a army that is crying for ways to transport their melee heavy force outside of walking and rhinos. My point being is the faction is still thrown bones by GW and our releases, when we get them, are poorly planned and end up offering us nothing to fix what is wrong.

Now, as a chaos player I feel that other chaos players need to understand that Chaos is NEVER going to be on the level of loyalists. Ever. If you have a problem with this you need to find another army. I accept I am playing a sub optimal force but that doesnt prevent me from calling out the issue. I try to keep the bitching local to threads were it is warranted. I think it is possible to please us. But GW will not expend the effort to do so. Our sales just are not there.

CSM in 8th are infinitely better than the gak show that was 6th and 7th edition for sure. And to be completely honest for a good portion of 8th CSM were actually way better than the loyalists. I think the big thing that is causing so much butthurt at the moment for chaos players and xenos player to an extent is the blatant favoritism being displayed towards IOM forces right now. For instance as I mentioned earlier almost every SM release in 8th has been here are all the things from the base SM codex your special SM codex never had access too. Where as the two new CSM codex last access to all the things they had access to from when they were in the CSM codex which was hugely frustrating for many people. Another example is the gak show that has been "Psychic Awakening" which may as well have been called "Loyalist Space Marine Awakening". Now its even more annoying as another IOM army is getting an entirely whole new set of models (admech). There are so many more armies that are both older than admech and IMO more important that admech that need new models and updates Necrons come to mind here. And lets not even get into the disparity between CSM codex 2.0 and SM codex 2.0 which was so broken it totally reshaped the competitive 40k scene over night.

LOL they're not better. Heldrake spam in 6th is still better than what we have now because at least that was an extremely dangerous model, on top of flying Daemon Princes to boot. Even as more AA came in by 7th, they still had use as allies, and then the Legion supplement was released, as imbalanced as it was. Compare that to the gak show now and to say CSM is in a better spot is, like, just WRONG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
can you not run a seperate detachment?

Why should that be necessary in the first place? Is that really the best defense for that you got?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
can you not run a seperate detachment?

Why should that be necessary in the first place? Is that really the best defense for that you got?

The idea that there can be units inside your own Codex that makes it so you can't use the rules in your own Codex is blatantly silly.

The datasheets are not there so you can use them in detachments. The datasheets are there so you can use Daemonic Ritual without needing to buy another book.

I think that was stated in a WC blog post or designer's commentary or something.

The Salt Mine wrote:As someone who played 1ksons and DG for years I agree with Slayer-Fan123 on the fact that they lost more than they gained with their codecies. Half of my armies for them became unplayable. For Deathguard I lost my bikers, havocs, obliterators, and terminators that I spent hundreds of $$ and a lot of time converting to be Deathguard. For 1ksons it was even worse since that codex is just a filler codex that zero effort was put into it. And no "JuSt TaKe An CsM dEtAtChMeNt!!!" isn't the answer as now I have to spend even more points on HQ units and other filler units that I wouldn't have had to before. My armies literally became illegal and unplayable over night and I was forced to spend even more money to make them playable.

This is made even more galling by the fact that every single loyalist space marine release in 8th has been here are all these units you didn't have access too in your specialist SM army that now you do have access too!!! Why can I not take all the new stuff that buffs daemon engines in my 1ksons army when half of my fething codex is all the daemon engines.

Nothing is ever gained by comparing CSM to SM. Just more frustration.

DG and TS did lose a lot by getting their own Codex. Long term, it's probably a gain - having their own Codex means GW will eventually expand their line with unique units. But I would hate to have invested in a bunch of Deredeos and Leviathans and not be able to use them.

Unlike my poor Black Legion. All we get are characters. We don't even have the conversion compulsion characteristic of armies without unique characters.

What's the long term though you're willing to wait for said expansion? Honest question.

LOL they're not better. Heldrake spam in 6th is still better than what we have now because at least that was an extremely dangerous model, on top of flying Daemon Princes to boot. Even as more AA came in by 7th, they still had use as allies, and then the Legion supplement was released, as imbalanced as it was. Compare that to the gak show now and to say CSM is in a better spot is, like, just WRONG.

Umm what? Heldrake spam was good for like the first month of 6th ed. For the rest of 6th ed and 7th ed CSM were the worst codex in the game. Competitive chaos lists were daemons and renegade guard or bust. Even with traitor legions CSM had nothing to compete with all the 2++ rerollable deathstars rolling around in the competitive scene or Taudar or playing against a 3000 point SM list with 2000 points of CSM because FREE gak detachments. Hell my competitive list for the tail end of 7th ed had a screamer bomb, Magnus, and Fateweaver all rolling around with 2++ rerollable invuln saves it was the dumbest list I have ever played and there was nothing in the CSM codex that could touch that.

For the majority of 8th ed CSM were better than the loyalists until the 2.0 SM codex came out not sure how this is even arguable as Chaos soup lists were dominating pretty solidly right before SM 2.0 came out. Most competitive Chaos lists had many elements from the CSM codex. The only SM elements I remember seeing from Imperial soup lists were BA smash captains. Hell even know CSM can put up some pretty competitive builds such as possessed bomb. Its just that the SM are still so absurdly broken and warping the meta that its stupid. Once the April faq comes around and brings more nerfs to the SM I think Chaos will be able to compete pretty well again.

The Salt Mine wrote:

LOL they're not better. Heldrake spam in 6th is still better than what we have now because at least that was an extremely dangerous model, on top of flying Daemon Princes to boot. Even as more AA came in by 7th, they still had use as allies, and then the Legion supplement was released, as imbalanced as it was. Compare that to the gak show now and to say CSM is in a better spot is, like, just WRONG.

Umm what? Heldrake spam was good for like the first month of 6th ed. For the rest of 6th ed and 7th ed CSM were the worst codex in the game. Competitive chaos lists were daemons and renegade guard or bust. Even with traitor legions CSM had nothing to compete with all the 2++ rerollable deathstars rolling around in the competitive scene or Taudar or playing against a 3000 point SM list with 2000 points of CSM because FREE gak detachments. Hell my competitive list for the tail end of 7th ed had a screamer bomb, Magnus, and Fateweaver all rolling around with 2++ rerollable invuln saves it was the dumbest list I have ever played and there was nothing in the CSM codex that could touch that.

For the majority of 8th ed CSM were better than the loyalists until the 2.0 SM codex came out not sure how this is even arguable as Chaos soup lists were dominating pretty solidly right before SM 2.0 came out. Most competitive Chaos lists had many elements from the CSM codex. The only SM elements I remember seeing from Imperial soup lists were BA smash captains. Hell even know CSM can put up some pretty competitive builds such as possessed bomb. Its just that the SM are still so absurdly broken and warping the meta that its stupid. Once the April faq comes around and brings more nerfs to the SM I think Chaos will be able to compete pretty well again.

This is correct. Though I'd argue that heldrake spam was viable a bit longer it never was as competitive as Chaos lists are today and obviousely saying the CSM codex in 6th was good is like saying the tyranid codex was good when effectively both of these codizes had just one OP model (heldrake and flyrants respectively) that tried to carry the codex. Yes, Nurgle CSM could still hold their own in 6th and 7th but they were outclassed by Necrons, SM, Eldar, Tau, Space Wolves, Mechanicus and Daemons - like most codizes were.
Competitive chaos lists still mean soup just like in prior editions, unfortunately. But since many tournament players don't seem to care about fluff anyway judging from dakka posts, that might be a minor complaint.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

LOL they're not better. Heldrake spam in 6th is still better than what we have now because at least that was an extremely dangerous model, on top of flying Daemon Princes to boot. Even as more AA came in by 7th, they still had use as allies, and then the Legion supplement was released, as imbalanced as it was. Compare that to the gak show now and to say CSM is in a better spot is, like, just WRONG.

Umm what? Heldrake spam was good for like the first month of 6th ed. For the rest of 6th ed and 7th ed CSM were the worst codex in the game. Competitive chaos lists were daemons and renegade guard or bust. Even with traitor legions CSM had nothing to compete with all the 2++ rerollable deathstars rolling around in the competitive scene or Taudar or playing against a 3000 point SM list with 2000 points of CSM because FREE gak detachments. Hell my competitive list for the tail end of 7th ed had a screamer bomb, Magnus, and Fateweaver all rolling around with 2++ rerollable invuln saves it was the dumbest list I have ever played and there was nothing in the CSM codex that could touch that.

For the majority of 8th ed CSM were better than the loyalists until the 2.0 SM codex came out not sure how this is even arguable as Chaos soup lists were dominating pretty solidly right before SM 2.0 came out. Most competitive Chaos lists had many elements from the CSM codex. The only SM elements I remember seeing from Imperial soup lists were BA smash captains. Hell even know CSM can put up some pretty competitive builds such as possessed bomb. Its just that the SM are still so absurdly broken and warping the meta that its stupid. Once the April faq comes around and brings more nerfs to the SM I think Chaos will be able to compete pretty well again.

This is correct. Though I'd argue that heldrake spam was viable a bit longer it never was as competitive as Chaos lists are today and obviousely saying the CSM codex in 6th was good is like saying the tyranid codex was good when effectively both of these codizes had just one OP model (heldrake and flyrants respectively) that tried to carry the codex. Yes, Nurgle CSM could still hold their own in 6th and 7th but they were outclassed by Necrons, SM, Eldar, Tau, Space Wolves, Mechanicus and Daemons - like most codizes were.
Competitive chaos lists still mean soup just like in prior editions, unfortunately. But since many tournament players don't seem to care about fluff anyway judging from dakka posts, that might be a minor complaint.

Heldrake spam at its peak was absolutely more viable than the current lists, and was still viable onwards even in 7th (hence why they're allied in often enough), and since neither are focused on CSM themselves it's impossible to argue the current codex writing is any better. Simply because it isn't.

 techsoldaten wrote:
DG and TS did lose a lot by getting their own Codex. Long term, it's probably a gain - having their own Codex means GW will eventually expand their line with unique units. But I would hate to have invested in a bunch of Deredeos and Leviathans and not be able to use them.

I don't have the Chaos IA, but do the Hellforged Deredeos & Leviathans not have <MARK OF CHAOS> as a keyword?

Heldrake spam at its peak was absolutely more viable than the current lists, and was still viable onwards even in 7th (hence why they're allied in often enough), and since neither are focused on CSM themselves it's impossible to argue the current codex writing is any better. Simply because it isn't.

I mean your more than entitled to think that but you are so unbelievably wrong its hilarious.

The Salt Mine wrote:

Heldrake spam at its peak was absolutely more viable than the current lists, and was still viable onwards even in 7th (hence why they're allied in often enough), and since neither are focused on CSM themselves it's impossible to argue the current codex writing is any better. Simply because it isn't.

I mean your more than entitled to think that but you are so unbelievably wrong its hilarious.

Well pray tell all the viable lists for the current writing that have wowed us. It will be surprisingly short.

https://nightsatthegametable.com/slaanesh-tournament-winning-list-warhammer-40k/

https://www.40kstats.com/gowix

https://www.40kstats.com/cagbashxiii

These are just from a quick google search all lists that made it to the top 4. There is also the triple lord of skulls list kicking that has been doing well. I saw another event that a chaos player took second in that had a large blob of rubrics and noise marines. There are a lot more that I have seen. All pretty varied and way more than just triple hell drake. Do some basic research before posting nonsense claims.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are some more lists that made it to the top 4 for a lot of factions if you want to look through them.

https://www.40kstats.com/topfactionlists

The Salt Mine wrote:
https://nightsatthegametable.com/slaanesh-tournament-winning-list-warhammer-40k/

https://www.40kstats.com/gowix

https://www.40kstats.com/cagbashxiii

These are just from a quick google search all lists that made it to the top 4. There is also the triple lord of skulls list kicking that has been doing well. I saw another event that a chaos player took second in that had a large blob of rubrics and noise marines. There are a lot more that I have seen. All pretty varied and way more than just triple hell drake. Do some basic research before posting nonsense claims.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are some more lists that made it to the top 4 for a lot of factions if you want to look through them.

https://www.40kstats.com/topfactionlists

Wow, imagine thinking something happens once or twice and that's the data point you want to use LOL, all you shown is they're an inconsistent army that does something once and then it's THAT easily encountered that it never bothers to pop up again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, spoiler alert, we all know about 40k stats. It collects data from basically ANYTHING slightly organized, including small tournaments nobody cares about.

Makes outrageous wrong claims gets proven wrong by facts has no other argument other than lol you are wrong. yep no point arguing with someone this delusional.

The Salt Mine wrote:
Makes outrageous wrong claims gets proven wrong by facts has no other argument other than lol you are wrong. yep no point arguing with someone this delusional.

It's not anymore an outrageous claim than the one time Rubric Marines + Ahriman topped sar one tournament in 6th and someone proclaiming that as evidence they're good. Little anecdotal evidence is essentially not having evidence at all. Consistency is the name of the game, which is why tactics that rely rely on randumb aren't good.

The Salt Mine wrote:
https://nightsatthegametable.com/slaanesh-tournament-winning-list-warhammer-40k/

https://www.40kstats.com/gowix

https://www.40kstats.com/cagbashxiii

These are just from a quick google search all lists that made it to the top 4. There is also the triple lord of skulls list kicking that has been doing well. I saw another event that a chaos player took second in that had a large blob of rubrics and noise marines. There are a lot more that I have seen. All pretty varied and way more than just triple hell drake. Do some basic research before posting nonsense claims.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are some more lists that made it to the top 4 for a lot of factions if you want to look through them.

https://www.40kstats.com/topfactionlists

All those lists prove is that csm can be competitive when used in soup and when using gimmicks like possessed bombs and triple klos. That's not new information. If the csm codex were actually designed right you wouldn't need soup or gimmicks. I know that doesn't bother hardcore competitive players but it does bother those of us who prefer not to resort to such things.

Csm should be viable without soup or gimmicks.

The Salt Mine wrote:
https://nightsatthegametable.com/slaanesh-tournament-winning-list-warhammer-40k/

https://www.40kstats.com/gowix

https://www.40kstats.com/cagbashxiii

These are just from a quick google search all lists that made it to the top 4. There is also the triple lord of skulls list kicking that has been doing well. I saw another event that a chaos player took second in that had a large blob of rubrics and noise marines. There are a lot more that I have seen. All pretty varied and way more than just triple hell drake. Do some basic research before posting nonsense claims.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are some more lists that made it to the top 4 for a lot of factions if you want to look through them.

https://www.40kstats.com/topfactionlists

I played against Phils triple lord of skulls last friday and got absolutely crushed... in T1 I had no real army left lol. You might thing its a a gimmick outlier etc. And yeah it sort of is.. BUT it does not make it a bad list/army
Hes currently ranked 3rd globaly on BCP and is #1. chaos player. I made a thread about how people would fight it because quite frankly, Eldar have no real answer.

We spoke about out and it seems like such a silly unit etc. but as soon as you have three of them and all the new PA/shadow spear buffs and relics all of a sudden its just savage.. Apprently Vik said hes the only army that managed to kill the pre-nerf IH levi.. that the kind of firepower you are dealing with.. It seems nobody considered those units when handing out the relics, strats and auras..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
https://nightsatthegametable.com/slaanesh-tournament-winning-list-warhammer-40k/

https://www.40kstats.com/gowix

https://www.40kstats.com/cagbashxiii

These are just from a quick google search all lists that made it to the top 4. There is also the triple lord of skulls list kicking that has been doing well. I saw another event that a chaos player took second in that had a large blob of rubrics and noise marines. There are a lot more that I have seen. All pretty varied and way more than just triple hell drake. Do some basic research before posting nonsense claims.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are some more lists that made it to the top 4 for a lot of factions if you want to look through them.

https://www.40kstats.com/topfactionlists

All those lists prove is that csm can be competitive when used in soup and when using gimmicks like possessed bombs and triple klos. That's not new information. If the csm codex were actually designed right you wouldn't need soup or gimmicks. I know that doesn't bother hardcore competitive players but it does bother those of us who prefer not to resort to such things.

Csm should be viable without soup or gimmicks.

EVERY FACTION in 8th thus far had "one or two gimmicks/soups" that worked competitively above all else.. Its not a chaos only phenomenon. (apart from marines.. but lets not start that discussion we all know what it is).

 Argive wrote:
EVERY FACTION in 8th thus far had "one or two gimmicks/soups" that worked competitively above all else.. Its not a chaos only phenomenon. (apart from marines.. but lets not start that discussion we all know what it is).

Yes but csm rely on the really big overly contrived ones more than most. And my point was that although such lists may be ok for strictly competitive they aren't what most people would like to play in more casual games. I'm personally sick of csm being the wombo combo faction. The army should work without such tricks.

I don't agree... I don't think its more than most. Combo wombo is the name of the game... Sadly... For everyone.

The wealth of options in terms of traits, relics, strats available to Chaos rivals only that of SM. hence you get Triple Klos nonsense appearing..

 Argive wrote:
I don't agree... I don't think its more than most. Combo wombo is the name of the game... Sadly... For everyone.

The wealth of options in terms of traits, relics, strats available to Chaos rivals only that of SM. hence you get Triple Klos nonsense appearing..

I'll give you the argument on strategems, but csm have the same limit on warlord traits and relics as everyone else except sm have. And you have to be joking about traits.

Agreed the whole combo thing sucks.

 Argive wrote:
I don't agree... I don't think its more than most. Combo wombo is the name of the game... Sadly... For everyone.

The wealth of options in terms of traits, relics, strats available to Chaos rivals only that of SM. hence you get Triple Klos nonsense appearing..

I think most armies are in a very good spot right now. Its just the SM bs is so ridiculously oppressive that it hold a lot of gak back but again as was said earlier that is a different topic. I do think its funny that you can compare the entirety of the Chaos faction to just the SM faction and not be far off though lol.

As far as wombo combos and such I have to agree with stratagems and keywords working the way they do that is kind of the name of the game for every army now a days.

In an ideal world every codex would be viable by itself but that is just not the way the armies that can ally with one another have been designed. With the exception of SM of course but that should have never been allowed to happened and was either complete incompetence that that codex was allowed to release or a money grab either of which are not good for the game.