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I haven't read the HH stuff. But the 40k books about the Dark Angels seem to have quite a common motif: their biggest objective is to hunt down the Fallen. Even in books where they are fighting other enemies, the Fallen is still mentioned as the main foe that the current situation must not distract the Dark Angels from. Some books such as the comic go way too far and the Dark Angels are seen fighting their own allies to hide their secrets.

As far as I am concerned, not a single Space Marine Legion during the Horus Heresy was completely free of corruption, just as not a single Traitor Legion did not have a loyalist contingent which they must purge. Most notoriously, the Space Wolves' only Successor Chapter, the Wolf Brothers became Chaos after their gene-seed experienced catastrophic failure. I mean, seriously, Space Marines in 30k are weaker and less indoctrinated. They didn't know much about Chaos and weren't even immune to fear (30k marines don't have ATSKNF) like their 40k counterparts.

So what makes the Dark Angels' case so special? Why would they go to such length trying to hide the existence of the Fallen? Just because some members betrayed 10,000 years ago doesn't implicate the current Chapter or any of its hundred Successors.

Because it was 50% of the Legion?

I find it amusing how easily people gloss over marine heresy.

The inquisition performs exterminatus on planets with a heresy count far lower than that.

If anything, marines turning traitor should be MORE policed than the average citizen,not less. The heresy is a stark reminder of what happens when you don't.

bibotot wrote:
I haven't read the HH stuff. But the 40k books about the Dark Angels seem to have quite a common motif: their biggest objective is to hunt down the Fallen. Even in books where they are fighting other enemies, the Fallen is still mentioned as the main foe that the current situation must not distract the Dark Angels from. Some books such as the comic go way too far and the Dark Angels are seen fighting their own allies to hide their secrets.

As far as I am concerned, not a single Space Marine Legion during the Horus Heresy was completely free of corruption, just as not a single Traitor Legion did not have a loyalist contingent which they must purge. Most notoriously, the Space Wolves' only Successor Chapter, the Wolf Brothers became Chaos after their gene-seed experienced catastrophic failure. I mean, seriously, Space Marines in 30k are weaker and less indoctrinated. They didn't know much about Chaos and weren't even immune to fear (30k marines don't have ATSKNF) like their 40k counterparts.

So what makes the Dark Angels' case so special? Why would they go to such length trying to hide the existence of the Fallen? Just because some members betrayed 10,000 years ago doesn't implicate the current Chapter or any of its hundred Successors.

Since some of the traitors are still running around in Dark Angels battlegear, commiting fresh heresies, it absolutely does implicate the current Chapter.

But from a game point of view, GW took this idea and ran with it, pretty much stripping the DA of any other theme or idea beyond 'Moar Plasma.' Traitors are the only signature the chapter has left. Just like Vampires, Wolves, Cybernetics and Close Combat are the signature traits for other chapters.

Hellebore wrote:
Because it was 50% of the Legion?

I find it amusing how easily people gloss over marine heresy.

The inquisition performs exterminatus on planets with a heresy count far lower than that.

If anything, marines turning traitor should be MORE policed than the average citizen,not less. The heresy is a stark reminder of what happens when you don't.

Didn't the Blood Ravens get 50% of their Chapter corrupted by Khorne as well, during Retribution? But in the end, they are declared pure and allowed to be rebuilt by the Inquisition. This is no small feat because Chapters siding with Huron during the Badab War were disallowed from replenishing their numbers until they finish their sentence.

Even the Grey Knights originally had its members coming from Traitor Legions as well.

You would think that the Dark Angels would just let the Inquisition do its stuff, if they are, of course, uncorrupted in the present day.

bibotot wrote:
Didn't the Blood Ravens get 50% of their Chapter corrupted by Khorne as well, during Retribution? But in the end, they are declared pure and allowed to be rebuilt by the Inquisition. This is no small feat because Chapters siding with Huron during the Badab War were disallowed from replenishing their numbers until they finish their sentence.

Even the Grey Knights originally had its members coming from Traitor Legions as well.

You would think that the Dark Angels would just let the Inquisition do its stuff, if they are, of course, uncorrupted in the present day.

Why should the 1st bend knee to some Inquisitor who lacks the qualities needed to reach their inner circle?

bibotot wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
Because it was 50% of the Legion?

I find it amusing how easily people gloss over marine heresy.

The inquisition performs exterminatus on planets with a heresy count far lower than that.

If anything, marines turning traitor should be MORE policed than the average citizen,not less. The heresy is a stark reminder of what happens when you don't.

Didn't the Blood Ravens get 50% of their Chapter corrupted by Khorne as well, during Retribution? But in the end, they are declared pure and allowed to be rebuilt by the Inquisition. This is no small feat because Chapters siding with Huron during the Badab War were disallowed from replenishing their numbers until they finish their sentence.

Even the Grey Knights originally had its members coming from Traitor Legions as well.

You would think that the Dark Angels would just let the Inquisition do its stuff, if they are, of course, uncorrupted in the present day.

actually apparently the inqusitor who was coming to investigate them got swallowed up by the great rift

You would think that the Dark Angels would just let the Inquisition do its stuff, if they are, of course, uncorrupted in the present day.

The Astartes answer only to the emperor, not the high lords of terra and certainly not some upstart inquisitor.

Secrecy and nobility has been the bedrock of the dark angels going back to their origins on caliban as "the order"

The rebellion led by luther is a personal stain on the chapters honor that can only be removed when all of the fallen have been called to account by those loyal to the lion and the emperor. It is essentially the largest and longest penitent crusade in the imperiums history.

I want to see a story where the DA are called in to save a planet from a Tyranid invasion, but before they get there, they get some intelligence about possible Fallen activity in the region. They drop everything and go after them and find one, maybe two or three, who are not involved in anything nefarious. Meanwhile, the planet is stripped clean of life. Somehow this gets leaked and gets back to Guilliman who is understandably enraged, who then summons the DA leaders to stand before him and other important figures in the Imperial government, along with some survivors from the planet to really hit the DA with what reality of what they've done, with those present then formally censuring the DA. They are then temporarily split up (into separate companies, not new chapters), made to be supervised by various chapters, and most importantly, are forbidden from hunting the Fallen anymore. Violating the last rule will involve excruciating penance for those involved. Any second-time offenders would be executed. The Rock is raided by huge numbers of Marines and Imperial Guard, and all prisoners are transferred elsewhere. The DA are not Chaos as some theories suggest, but they are some damn selfish donkey-caves when it comes to the issue of the Fallen and they need to be taken to task for their behavior.

The Rock is raided by huge numbers of Marines and Imperial Guard

Well they could try, but i doubt they would take it without destroying it. similair to how the inquisition and sisters tried to raid the fang.

Remember the DAs only follow the codex astartes in principle as an outward show. they still secretly operate as a legion with all their "successor" chapters answering to azrael and the inner circle.

bibotot wrote:
I haven't read the HH stuff. But the 40k books about the Dark Angels seem to have quite a common motif: their biggest objective is to hunt down the Fallen. Even in books where they are fighting other enemies, the Fallen is still mentioned as the main foe that the current situation must not distract the Dark Angels from. Some books such as the comic go way too far and the Dark Angels are seen fighting their own allies to hide their secrets.

This has always been part of the Fallen Schtik though. They will drop everything at the sound of whisper and go chasing ghosts. And they will murder allies if they find out too much, whether they be guardsmen, Inquisitors, or depending on how you interpret the text, other Astartes (I.e: Ophidium Gulf incident.)

As far as I am concerned, not a single Space Marine Legion during the Horus Heresy was completely free of corruption, just as not a single Traitor Legion did not have a loyalist contingent which they must purge. Most notoriously, the Space Wolves' only Successor Chapter, the Wolf Brothers became Chaos after their gene-seed experienced catastrophic failure. .

So what makes the Dark Angels' case so special? Why would they go to such length trying to hide the existence of the Fallen? Just because some members betrayed 10,000 years ago doesn't implicate the current Chapter or any of its hundred Successors.

Back before the Black Library authors started writing the Horus Heresy series, the Dark Angels WERE the only loyalist Legion to have had members turn traitor. They were unique in that sense because as of that point the heresy wasn't fully fleshed out the original legions didn't have the "roles" or the back story that they do today. But then to liven things up for the HH novels, and to give some other Legions a bit more depth and interest, you started to see other marines turning bad. The major one that comes to mind is the White Scars who had a couple of chapters defect. You had Raven Guard and I think Iron Hands marines switching sides. Now from a logical point of view, it makes a lot of sense for marines from multiple Legions to go traitor. But with each instance, it diluted the the uniqueness of the Dark Angels traitors. Which again, isn't a bad thing per-se. But in the end it served to make the whole Fallen situation a bit more confused. Because as you say, why would they go to such length trying to hide the existence of the Fallen when other Legions and Chapters have marines go rogue.
From my perspective though, it has a lot to do with pride. They were the 1st Legion, the Emperors test bed for every single marine that came after them. They were IT. And in their eyes this damned them not only to the wider Imperium but to their Astartes cousins too. Because if the 1st, could fall from the Emperors grace, then surely any marine could! So they covered it up initially by saying Caliban got raided by traitors, not unreasonable considering that Caliban was situated near the Eye of Terror and that's where the traitors fled after Terra.
As for other chapters turning traitor, to look at it from a Dark Angels mindset, you have to assume that the Angels see other Chapters and indeed probably other Legions as being lesser. If, for example, a Legion can wholly fall to chaos because they were disillusioned with the Emperors Plan, then it wouldn't be surprising that an 8th generation chapter of the Imperial Fists would go renegade for no other reason then some nobody with a fancy =][= told them off for using the wrong type of phosphex.

I mean, seriously, Space Marines in 30k are weaker and less indoctrinated. They didn't know much about Chaos and weren't even immune to fear (30k marines don't have ATSKNF) like their 40k counterparts

Ah you're starting to mesh table top rules and background lore into one thing now and that rarely works out well as the two tend to be a bit incompatible. If the rules reflected the lore then a tactical squad would be nigh unbeatable to anything short of a titan class enemy. And even then the sergeant would probably just pull a Battle of Hoth.

 Snrub wrote:

bibotot wrote:
I mean, seriously, Space Marines in 30k are weaker and less indoctrinated. They didn't know much about Chaos and weren't even immune to fear (30k marines don't have ATSKNF) like their 40k counterparts

Ah you're starting to mesh table top rules and background lore into one thing now and that rarely works out well as the two tend to be a bit incompatible. If the rules reflected the lore then a tactical squad would be nigh unbeatable to anything short of a titan class enemy. And even then the sergeant would probably just pull a Battle of Hoth.

First Claw says "Hi".

They are a broken legion in the same way as the Blood Angels, the loss of the Lion and the stain on their honour led them to become insular for a while and that may have ended had the first grand master not committed active treason against the Imperium by helping Cypher and then letting him go, the first betrayal during the heresy could have been forgiven but each one after that to cover up the first shows the Dark Angels to be traitors to their own legacy, themselves and the Imperium but not the Emperor.

Since azreal revealed to RG the truth and wasn’t beheaded I assume that DA are sort of forgiven but the fluff is stating that the fallen are legion sized, so 100k strong. So I assume in the future it will become a story of hatred and revenge and the DA and unforgiven chapters will remain unforgiven in their own eyes until they have wiped out the fallen.

mrFickle wrote:
Since azreal revealed to RG the truth

When was this?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Since azreal revealed to RG the truth

When was this?

When RG crosses over to the dark imperium taking the primaris Marines to reinforce those chapters stuck on that side of the galaxy. Azreal told him that Luther had escaped and about the fallen. Haven’t read the book myself I just picked that up on here so feel free to correct me anyone.

Part of the issue is that they never came forward with what happened. At first it probably seemed like it was all swept under the rug thanks to the destruction of Caliban. Suddenly traitor Dark Angels are popping up around the galaxy. If they had admitted to the problem in the beginning all would have been forgiven. Every legion had some element either throw in with Horus or turn black shield and do their own thing. But since the Dark Angels didn’t admit to it, it becomes a problem. The longer the Dark Angels maintained the lie, the worse it would look if it was discovered. Many would question why they hid it if they were innocent, but that excessive pride and tight lipped attitude to any secret is an important part of who the Dark Angels are. Personally I find that character flaw part of what makes the Dark Angels interesting. Plus it’s always fun to throw some fallen into my army when playing against a DA player.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Part of the issue is that they never came forward with what happened. At first it probably seemed like it was all swept under the rug thanks to the destruction of Caliban. Suddenly traitor Dark Angels are popping up around the galaxy. If they had admitted to the problem in the beginning all would have been forgiven. Every legion had some element either throw in with Horus or turn black shield and do their own thing. But since the Dark Angels didn’t admit to it, it becomes a problem. The longer the Dark Angels maintained the lie, the worse it would look if it was discovered. Many would question why they hid it if they were innocent, but that excessive pride and tight lipped attitude to any secret is an important part of who the Dark Angels are. Personally I find that character flaw part of what makes the Dark Angels interesting. Plus it’s always fun to throw some fallen into my army when playing against a DA player.

But the dark angles were also late getting to terra which they consider a failure of duty and believe that others may think they did it on purpose. Some fallen have claimed that the lion was waiting to see who won which is where the whole DA are traitor idea comes from. So the DA can’t have that kind of “lie” getting around.

mrFickle wrote:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Part of the issue is that they never came forward with what happened. At first it probably seemed like it was all swept under the rug thanks to the destruction of Caliban. Suddenly traitor Dark Angels are popping up around the galaxy. If they had admitted to the problem in the beginning all would have been forgiven. Every legion had some element either throw in with Horus or turn black shield and do their own thing. But since the Dark Angels didn’t admit to it, it becomes a problem. The longer the Dark Angels maintained the lie, the worse it would look if it was discovered. Many would question why they hid it if they were innocent, but that excessive pride and tight lipped attitude to any secret is an important part of who the Dark Angels are. Personally I find that character flaw part of what makes the Dark Angels interesting. Plus it’s always fun to throw some fallen into my army when playing against a DA player.

But the dark angles were also late getting to terra which they consider a failure of duty and believe that others may think they did it on purpose. Some fallen have claimed that the lion was waiting to see who won which is where the whole DA are traitor idea comes from. So the DA can’t have that kind of “lie” getting around.

That Fallen lie never made sense what with the Angels and Wolves travelling together and Russ being the one who held back the Lion because Russ wanted to liberate as many worlds as they could on the way with the Lion wanting to head straight in and abandon those worlds to their fate. It's literally one of the few parts of the Heresy that was fleshed out in 3ed ed and Gav Thorpe goes and vomits all over it with his BS.

There is more detail than can be written in this forum at the Fandom Wiki:
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_Angels

aphyon wrote:

The Rock is raided by huge numbers of Marines and Imperial Guard

Well they could try, but i doubt they would take it without destroying it. similair to how the inquisition and sisters tried to raid the fang.

Remember the DAs only follow the codex astartes in principle as an outward show. they still secretly operate as a legion with all their "successor" chapters answering to azrael and the inner circle.

I think that the Dark Angels have stated that if their secrets were discovered that they would not turn traitor and fight against the Imperium. Also, I'm talking about several chapters taking part; the DA would get smashed if they tried to fight back, and any survivors would be labeled as excommunicatis traitoris, the very thing that they are trying to avoid. My idea is that this whole thing would not be handled like how the Emperor chastised the Word Bearers, with mass destruction and physically forced to kneel and told that they are gak. There would be a simple seizure of some assets (they Rock would still be in DA hands, it just that the prisoners and maybe some other stuff would be removed), a temporary split, and a standing order to change their behavior regarding the Fallen (the cat concerning their history would probably be out of the bag by now anyway). I do know about the other chapters following Azrael; he could be part of one of the temporary split forces (though he would still maintain his title and honors), but he would be monitored as to who he communicated with. This could cut down on any subterfuge without punishing the chapters who had nothing to do with the incident.

We already know that the Dark Angels most likely aren't going to be punished for how the Unforgiven operate. Roboute literally saw them all together when he handed out the Dark Angel Primaris and didn't say a word about their very obvious legion building(which is what Azrael assumed they were there for to begin with) other than to congratulate the work they had been doing up to this point. Even if he knows about the Fallen, he neither cares nor feels the need to out the 1st Legion.

 aphyon wrote:

You would think that the Dark Angels would just let the Inquisition do its stuff, if they are, of course, uncorrupted in the present day.

The Astartes answer only to the emperor, not the high lords of terra and certainly not some upstart inquisitor.

Secrecy and nobility has been the bedrock of the dark angels going back to their origins on caliban as "the order"

The rebellion led by luther is a personal stain on the chapters honor that can only be removed when all of the fallen have been called to account by those loyal to the lion and the emperor. It is essentially the largest and longest penitent crusade in the imperiums history.

Traitors are the only signature the chapter has left

Sadly yes, i miss the days when the restricted thematic ravenwing and deathwing armies were a unique thing that only the dark angels could do.

Space Marines absolutely answer to the Inquisition - its just that the more powerful ones - like the First Founding have enough connections with the Inquisition that they can call upon that to block all but the most powerful (*). "Normal" Chapters can and have been destroyed by the Inqusiiton.

The current DA lore is not much better (IMO) where they are so obsessed with covering up their failure that they keep failing the Imperium

(*) except in the gak current Wulf-Wulf Lore where they just how alot and Inquisitors flee.

mrFickle wrote:When RG crosses over to the dark imperium taking the primaris Marines to reinforce those chapters stuck on that side of the galaxy. Azreal told him that Luther had escaped and about the fallen.

The first sentence, yes - Guilliman arrives at the Rock, with the intention to reinforce the heavily depleted DA with Primaris reinforcements. As for the latter? That doesn't happen anywhere - Guilliman knows nothing about Luther, or the Fallen, or anything like that (despite having worked with Cypher and some Fallen Angels previously, and recognising them as Dark Angels, he never makes any kind of question about them).

Azrael is tempted to fire upon Guilliman, because he thought he was being censured - however, he declines to do so, and realises that Guilliman is only there to provide reinforcement. There's no secret sharing, at least anywhere I've seen.

Haven’t read the book myself I just picked that up on here so feel free to correct me anyone.

Well, that would explain that. That's because it's not in a book, quite. It's in the DA Codex, which, as far as I'm aware, is the ONLY place it's mentioned, and there's certainly no talk at all of Azrael telling Guilliman anything.
Whoever you picked it up of here, I don't think that was canon.

Space Marines absolutely answer to the Inquisition - its just that the more powerful ones - like the First Founding have enough connections with the Inquisition that they can call upon that to block all but the most powerful (*). "Normal" Chapters can and have been destroyed by the Inqusiiton.

That is factually incorrect.

Some chapters have close ties to various ordos of the inquisition. the red hunters for example although not one of the military orders acted as such

What you will find is that the inquisition *requests* aid from the astartes chapters it does not demand it. as the astartes only directly answer to the emperor and their primarchs. in any other situation an inquitor has the authority to demand anything they wish from any member of the guard, imperial navy, sisters of battle etc..

One of the well known stories is with the space wolves and the inquisitions failed assault on the fang with the aid of the red hunters, grey knights and imperial navy.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Months_of_Shame


Any such similar attack on the rock would likely end the same way.

 aphyon wrote:

Space Marines absolutely answer to the Inquisition - its just that the more powerful ones - like the First Founding have enough connections with the Inquisition that they can call upon that to block all but the most powerful (*). "Normal" Chapters can and have been destroyed by the Inqusiiton.

That is factually incorrect.

Some chapters have close ties to various ordos of the inquisition. the red hunters for example although not one of the military orders acted as such

What you will find is that the inquisition *requests* aid from the astartes chapters it does not demand it. as the astartes only directly answer to the emperor and their primarchs. in any other situation an inquitor has the authority to demand anything they wish from any member of the guard, imperial navy, sisters of battle etc..

One of the well known stories is with the space wolves and the inquisitions failed assault on the fang with the aid of the red hunters, grey knights and imperial navy.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Months_of_Shame


Any such similar attack on the rock would likely end the same way.

That's been an argument for most of the life of the Adeptus Astartes and inquisition. Yes, space marine chapter masters answer only to the Emperor, but legally in the eyes of the Imperium a command issued under an Inquisitorial rosette IS a command from the Emperor.

It's a position that enough astartes chapters don't agree with to make it impractical to enforce but that enough other factions (like the forces who supply the Astartes toys) do accept that the marines in turn try to avoid making a big deal out of it. Therefore, nine times out of ten, the inquisition asks politely and the marines agree because it would be impolite not to. Civil disorder and the need for character (and actual) assassination are thus kept to a minimum.

This was a big part of the reasoning behind the old "chamber militant" status of the Deathwatch and grey knights (which I think has since gone by the board) - regardless of traditional astartes autonomy, they were explicitly sworn to obey their respective ordo, which was especially important as they often got ordered to do unpleasant stuff to loyal but unlucky or inconvenient imperial citizens....

Gadzilla666 wrote:
First Claw says "Hi".

Sorry, I don't get the reference.

Perhaps you could ask the Flame Falcons, Soul Drinkers or Relictors whether Space Marines can just shrug off the attentions of the Inquisition?

 Snrub wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
First Claw says "Hi".

Sorry, I don't get the reference.

The protagonists of ADB's Night Lords trilogy. A squad of Night Lords who, in one instance, manage to bring down a Warhound titan by taking out one of its legs with well placed melta bombs, thus "pulling a Battle of Hoth".

 aphyon wrote:

Space Marines absolutely answer to the Inquisition - its just that the more powerful ones - like the First Founding have enough connections with the Inquisition that they can call upon that to block all but the most powerful (*). "Normal" Chapters can and have been destroyed by the Inqusiiton.

That is factually incorrect.

Some chapters have close ties to various ordos of the inquisition. the red hunters for example although not one of the military orders acted as such

What you will find is that the inquisition *requests* aid from the astartes chapters it does not demand it. as the astartes only directly answer to the emperor and their primarchs. in any other situation an inquitor has the authority to demand anything they wish from any member of the guard, imperial navy, sisters of battle etc..

One of the well known stories is with the space wolves and the inquisitions failed assault on the fang with the aid of the red hunters, grey knights and imperial navy.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Months_of_Shame

Any such similar attack on the rock would likely end the same way.

Nope Inquisitors do often play nice with powerful institutions as it politic to do so - refusing an Inquisitor is a BAD idea but offending a Chapter Master or equivalent in various Imperial institutions is equally foolish.

As I aluded too- the current Space Wulf lore is parody of itself - truely awful - and it keeps getting worse.

The Dark Angels conceal the Fallen - Especially from the Inquisition, as they donlt want the questions.but agreed assaulting the Rock would require immense resources and would cause so much disruption that its not worth it - unless of course the Chapter like others in the past are actually in danger of or have already turned renegade.

All space marines recruited these days are not very old. Not child soldiers, but not grown adults who can make rasional long thought out dessissions. Throw them into the SM making process and place them in a militaristic structure that glorifies the Emperor and violence. I do not know how much their training prepeare them for PTS. But the bottom line is you do not get the sharpest rake in the shed.

They have merly build up a secret culture where this is one of the things they care about. Trying to buck that trend from the inside is hard.