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 Vaktathi wrote:
I really don't like the "can only do X wounds a turn" thing, but aside from that, with Ghaz at 12 wounds (and somehow growing to be bigger than a Primarch) he's much more easily engaged than most characters, and doesn't really do much that a much cheaper Warboss won't do.

At least Orks have a stated rationale for why he's so large.

Where does Guilliman sleep? How does he get onto transports like Thunderhawks? Where does he go to the bathroom? What if there is an important meeting with the High Lords he has to go to but the conference room only has doors that are 10 feet high? My questions are endless.

I'm sure if Guilliman or some stupid Space Marine Dreadnought character has a similar rule, noone would bat an eye.

They're Orks. They still suck. I have a Ghaz and a full 3000 pt army. They're still gonna remain shelved indefinitely.

Once Ghaghskull hits combat is there anything that beats him? He beats Guilliman easily. What about the Demon Primarchs or Abaddon?

 Elfric wrote:
Once Ghaghskull hits combat is there anything that beats him? He beats Guilliman easily. What about the Demon Primarchs or Abaddon?

You don't have to beat him.

Shave off four wounds in shooting. Drop a couple of smites. Then to win you just need to get the first activation with something that can do 4+ wounds before he acts. Easy as.

If he drops in and charges, eats and screening unit or two and then dies as described above. For some armies replace the smites with overwatch or any other means of doing wounds.

I didn't ask how to one shot him with your army I asked what 1 unit in the game can beat him in close combat

 Nightlord1987 wrote:


They're Orks. They still suck.

lol k

 Elfric wrote:
Once Ghaghskull hits combat is there anything that beats him? He beats Guilliman easily. What about the Demon Primarchs or Abaddon?

You sure he 'beats Guilliman' easily'?

My maths says different.

 Elfric wrote:
I didn't ask how to one shot him with your army I asked what 1 unit in the game can beat him in close combat

I don't know if that's a useful question. This isn't a pit fight. It's a battle.

However...

Archons are known to be able to punch well above their weight class when they're lucky with their Shadowfield. Of course, you can't rely on "being lucky". How good is Gazh at dishing out mortal wounds?

.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
Once Ghaghskull hits combat is there anything that beats him? He beats Guilliman easily. What about the Demon Primarchs or Abaddon?

You sure he 'beats Guilliman' easily'?

My maths says different.

6 * 1.167 * .998 * .833 * .5 * 4 = 7.8

Spend 3CP if you don't manage to do it one go. Ghaz needs 3 wounds to get through and scores 6 of them on average. If RG saves only half - he dies.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
Once Ghaghskull hits combat is there anything that beats him? He beats Guilliman easily. What about the Demon Primarchs or Abaddon?

You don't have to beat him.

Shave off four wounds in shooting. Drop a couple of smites. Then to win you just need to get the first activation with something that can do 4+ wounds before he acts. Easy as.

If he drops in and charges, eats and screening unit or two and then dies as described above. For some armies replace the smites with overwatch or any other means of doing wounds.

Not everything has smite. Necrons don't. Most space marines armies won't be doing 4 damage with smite in psychic either. So that leaves shooting and melee. Nothing is going to want to fight Ghaz in melee, he will be avoided like the plague, everyone will try and kite him. GG if he teleports into the front line of a Necrons castle and is supported by a bunch of boys. He'll merk all the arks and HQ within two turns, no more reanimation protocols. He's the best Melee unit in the game once he's in.

Roberts84 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
Once Ghaghskull hits combat is there anything that beats him? He beats Guilliman easily. What about the Demon Primarchs or Abaddon?

You don't have to beat him.

Shave off four wounds in shooting. Drop a couple of smites. Then to win you just need to get the first activation with something that can do 4+ wounds before he acts. Easy as.

If he drops in and charges, eats and screening unit or two and then dies as described above. For some armies replace the smites with overwatch or any other means of doing wounds.

Not everything has smite. Necrons don't. Most space marines armies won't be doing 4 damage with smite in psychic either. So that leaves shooting and melee. Nothing is going to want to fight Ghaz in melee, he will be avoided like the plague, everyone will try and kite him. GG if he teleports into the front line of a Necrons castle and is supported by a bunch of boys. He'll merk all the arks and HQ within two turns, no more reanimation protocols. He's the best Melee unit in the game once he's in.

...But he really super isn't though. The main reason that I'm not planning on using Ghazghkull is that, pointswise, he's pretty damn close to a gorkanaut, who puts him to absolute shame in melee because the gorkanaut can decide to go for 18 Ap-2 D2 attacks optionally. 5A S14 Ap-4 D4 sounds bonkers until you realize that he can't get through any screen.

Blood Angel smash captain is on average more effective than ghazghkull and costs less than 1/2 the points. "best melee unit in the game" is just hideous hyperbole.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
Once Ghaghskull hits combat is there anything that beats him? He beats Guilliman easily. What about the Demon Primarchs or Abaddon?

You sure he 'beats Guilliman' easily'?

My maths says different.

6 * 1.167 * .998 * .833 * .5 * 4 = 7.8

Spend 3CP if you don't manage to do it one go. Ghaz needs 3 wounds to get through and scores 6 of them on average. If RG saves only half - he dies.

3 CP for what? He can’t fight twice normally, only when he dies.

Also Necrons can do mortal wounds at the end of the movement phase with CTan (which are a more popular pick). So that, plus shooting, and then tie up with Wraiths in melee. It isn't difficult.

the_scotsman wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
Once Ghaghskull hits combat is there anything that beats him? He beats Guilliman easily. What about the Demon Primarchs or Abaddon?

You don't have to beat him.

Shave off four wounds in shooting. Drop a couple of smites. Then to win you just need to get the first activation with something that can do 4+ wounds before he acts. Easy as.

If he drops in and charges, eats and screening unit or two and then dies as described above. For some armies replace the smites with overwatch or any other means of doing wounds.

Not everything has smite. Necrons don't. Most space marines armies won't be doing 4 damage with smite in psychic either. So that leaves shooting and melee. Nothing is going to want to fight Ghaz in melee, he will be avoided like the plague, everyone will try and kite him. GG if he teleports into the front line of a Necrons castle and is supported by a bunch of boys. He'll merk all the arks and HQ within two turns, no more reanimation protocols. He's the best Melee unit in the game once he's in.

...But he really super isn't though. The main reason that I'm not planning on using Ghazghkull is that, pointswise, he's pretty damn close to a gorkanaut, who puts him to absolute shame in melee because the gorkanaut can decide to go for 18 Ap-2 D2 attacks optionally. 5A S14 Ap-4 D4 sounds bonkers until you realize that he can't get through any screen.

Blood Angel smash captain is on average more effective than ghazghkull and costs less than 1/2 the points. "best melee unit in the game" is just hideous hyperbole.

A naut doesn't have a wound cap however. Again, Ghaz can only take 4 wounds per phase. That's what makes him a melee monster, not simply his damage output. I'm yet to hear anyone explain how he isn't going to cause havoc to castles.

Look dude, if you get him in melee with what he wants to fight (expensive single/low model count units) hes great. But fact is he isnt getting there easily, its very easy to screen you gak especially if youre know youre playing orks because we deepstrike all the time. Other option is to run up the board where he will get shot down in a turn or 2 before ever reaching his target, and when he does its more screening units to deal with. For 300 points he is NOT good. You will not see im in competitive lists that place top in major tournaments unless he gets big changes. I mean for feths sake he cant even advance and charge when everything around him can

 Billagio wrote:
Look dude, if you get him in melee with what he wants to fight (expensive single/low model count units) hes great. But fact is he isnt getting there easily, its very easy to screen you gak especially if youre know youre playing orks because we deepstrike all the time. Other option is to run up the board where he will get shot down in a turn or 2 before ever reaching his target, and when he does its more screening units to deal with. For 300 points he is NOT good. You will not see im in competitive lists that place top in major tournaments unless he gets big changes.

He can teleport.

Ok, let's put it this way:

Say you have a Tau or Necrons castle. Ghaz teleports and charges it. He takes 4 wounds ( amazingl) in overwatch and then he's smack bang up against your lines. What's your strategy at that point?

Fall back and kill him the next turn because all he did was charge some fire warriors/necron warriors. And thats assuming he makes the charge because he has a less than 50% chance of doing it

 JNAProductions wrote:
3 CP for what? He can’t fight twice normally, only when he dies.

Yes, my bad. INFANTRY only on that. Ghaz won't ever die to RG in any case (barring comically absurd rolls or outside support).

It isn't a particularly relevant metric in any case.

Roberts84 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
Once Ghaghskull hits combat is there anything that beats him? He beats Guilliman easily. What about the Demon Primarchs or Abaddon?

You don't have to beat him.

Shave off four wounds in shooting. Drop a couple of smites. Then to win you just need to get the first activation with something that can do 4+ wounds before he acts. Easy as.

If he drops in and charges, eats and screening unit or two and then dies as described above. For some armies replace the smites with overwatch or any other means of doing wounds.

Not everything has smite. Necrons don't. Most space marines armies won't be doing 4 damage with smite in psychic either. So that leaves shooting and melee. Nothing is going to want to fight Ghaz in melee, he will be avoided like the plague, everyone will try and kite him. GG if he teleports into the front line of a Necrons castle and is supported by a bunch of boys. He'll merk all the arks and HQ within two turns, no more reanimation protocols. He's the best Melee unit in the game once he's in.

Ghaz is a decent duellist thanks to the 4 wound limit but that's it, no way is he the final word in melee. Any large unit with an invul save (i.e. bloodletters) will happily wait out 3 rounds to finish him off, and there are plenty of characters who could solo him in one turn - Nightbringer can cause mortals in the movement phase, wound on a 2+ in the shooting phase, and then do the same but also ignoring invuls in the fight phase - and c'tan are not even considered that good.

 Billagio wrote:
Fall back and kill him the next turn because all he did was charge some fire warriors/necron warriors. And thats assuming he makes the charge because he has a less than 50% chance of doing it

Cool. And what about the 20 boyz that roll up on you while that's happening? Or what if your screen is already dead because they were kitted out with Big Choppas and Klaws and they've hosed them off the board, and then Ghaz teleports in, makes the charge, and is all up in your suits'/arks/ HQ's gak? Are you going to keep falling back until you're off the board, scoring no objectives at all? Because once he's locked it up, you're not shooting him, and you don't have any psychic. So that leaves Melee in which you can do a Maximum of 4 wounds, and nothing to anything else.

Edit: He's got a painboy too.

Roberts84 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Fall back and kill him the next turn because all he did was charge some fire warriors/necron warriors. And thats assuming he makes the charge because he has a less than 50% chance of doing it

Cool. And what about the 20 boyz that roll up on you while that's happening? Or what if your screen is already dead because they were kitted out with Big Choppas and Klaws and they've hosed them off the board, and then Ghaz teleports in, makes the charge, and is all up in your suits'/arks/ HQ's gak? Are you going to keep falling back until you're off the board, scoring no objectives at all? Because once he's locked it up, you're not shooting him, and you don't have any psychic. So that leaves Melee in which you can do a Maximum of 4 wounds, and nothing to anything else.

Edit: He's got a painboy too.

I mean, theyre boyz so shoot them? Id rather have 300 points of boyz than 300 points of Ghaz. Its pretty clear youre not going to change your mind and are stuck in your ways (despite clearly having never played orks). Lets just wait and see what major tournament lists/results churn out in a few months (assuming no changes to him)

They wanted a way to have a character with enough wounds to match his size, but without losing character protection. So 4 wounds per phase is where they settled.

Who could defeat him solo? A unit of 30 ork boys. A unit of 30 anythings. sure, he'll kill 4 of them a turn, but it ill take him all game.

Solo, he's not a great unit. He will make a decent sheepdog (opposite of kiting), and a bit of a fire magnet, save the fact that he will only draw 4 wounds of damage and then the enemy will focus on something else.

His best use is getting into combat with the scariest stuff - a titan dealing 6 damage per blow - yeah, well, that sounds like a waste!

If he gets in CC with chaff or screens, you've probably used him wrong.

Roberts84 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Fall back and kill him the next turn because all he did was charge some fire warriors/necron warriors. And thats assuming he makes the charge because he has a less than 50% chance of doing it

Cool. And what about the 20 boyz that roll up on you while that's happening? Or what if your screen is already dead because they were kitted out with Big Choppas and Klaws and they've hosed them off the board, and then Ghaz teleports in, makes the charge, and is all up in your suits'/arks/ HQ's gak? Are you going to keep falling back until you're off the board, scoring no objectives at all? Because once he's locked it up, you're not shooting him, and you don't have any psychic. So that leaves Melee in which you can do a Maximum of 4 wounds, and nothing to anything else.

Edit: He's got a painboy too.

Painboys don't work on him, unless you're referring to Makari who likely won't teleport with him.

Roberts84 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Fall back and kill him the next turn because all he did was charge some fire warriors/necron warriors. And thats assuming he makes the charge because he has a less than 50% chance of doing it

Cool. And what about the 20 boyz that roll up on you while that's happening? Or what if your screen is already dead because they were kitted out with Big Choppas and Klaws and they've hosed them off the board, and then Ghaz teleports in, makes the charge, and is all up in your suits'/arks/ HQ's gak? Are you going to keep falling back until you're off the board, scoring no objectives at all? Because once he's locked it up, you're not shooting him, and you don't have any psychic. So that leaves Melee in which you can do a Maximum of 4 wounds, and nothing to anything else.

Edit: He's got a painboy too.

Painboys can't heal monsters my dude.

Only Goff painboys can heal him, and only with a strat.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Only Goff painboys can heal him, and only with a strat.

Yup, only with a stratagem and more importantly, it's incredibly unlikely that the Painboy will be within range if you deepstrike him, and more importantly, if you're footslogging instead, D3 healed wounds won't be enough to ensure his survival over sustained fire/psychic attacks, since you're basically adding 1-3 wounds to his wound total at best before he bites it.

I like how he keeps bringing up the wound cap over and over as the end all be all, despite all evidence to the contrary.

 Elfric wrote:
I didn't ask how to one shot him with your army I asked what 1 unit in the game can beat him in close combat

But why tho?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
I didn't ask how to one shot him with your army I asked what 1 unit in the game can beat him in close combat

But why tho?

Should have just told him another Ghazzy.

Roberts84 wrote:
[Not everything has smite. Necrons don't. Most space marines armies won't be doing 4 damage with smite in psychic either. So that leaves shooting and melee. Nothing is going to want to fight Ghaz in melee, he will be avoided like the plague, everyone will try and kite him. GG if he teleports into the front line of a Necrons castle and is supported by a bunch of boys. He'll merk all the arks and HQ within two turns, no more reanimation protocols. He's the best Melee unit in the game once he's in.

If he's up against my 1 psyker DA list here's what will happen.

Best Case:
T1. Ghaz isn't on the table.
T2. Ghaz drops in and gets forced to make a 12" charge due to my Infiltrators hiding in a magic box. In this case, I shoot 4 wounds off him, feed him a unit of scouts, shoot 4 more wounds off of him the next turn, and then ram a 5 strong unit of DW Knights down his throat or feed him another unit and shoot his last wounds off. In this case, he eats 140 points of scouts plus whatever his shooting does.

Average Case:
T1. Ghaz isn't on the table.
T2. Ghaz drops in and gets forced to make a 9" charge. He makes it, eats some scouts. Then it goes the same as before only with him killing 210 points of models.

If he charges anything important they get transhuman physiology for the turn, plus the minimum 5++ invulnerable save, and then we repeat the cycle. This all assumes no smites, no overwatch, and no damage done to Ghaz in melee by the units he's attacking.

It really doesn't matter how BIG Ghaz's numbers are or how unkillable he is. His movement profile and size dictate that he will rarely ever charge the unit that he actually wants to charge. He has a massive base, can't fly, can't advance and charge, can't go through building and walls, can't go up multiple levels of ruins and can't relocate again after the initial deep strike.

The monster keyword is more of a curse than a benefit for him