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I suspect if an off topic/taboo subject post is part of a string of problem posts (especially if they're all after a warning has been given) they're much more likely to be snipped out than if they're isolated and nobody really responds to them
could explain why some stuff is being removed and others isn't (even ignoring we won't know how many yellow triangle clicks have been received which will also be a major factor)
It's just too authoritarian here, which is why I rarely post anymore.
Case in point, the Primaris Chaos thread literally up and vanished in the last 8 hours since I posted in it. No warning, no explanation.
It's just gone. Probably because one of the modes got angry about something or some idea that was put forward in there. Nuking threads is what will drive people away from this place, more so than a few people being belligerent on specific issues.
Togusa wrote: It's just too authoritarian here, which is why I rarely post anymore.
Case in point, the Primaris Chaos thread literally up and vanished in the last 8 hours since I posted in it. No warning, no explanation.
It's just gone. Probably because one of the modes got angry about something or some idea that was put forward in there. Nuking threads is what will drive people away from this place, more so than a few people being belligerent on specific issues.
Considering how quick it was devolving into tantrums about primaris existing at all I'm really not surprised. It was probably easier than just pruning a bunch of posts and making the thread seem super disjointed.
I prefer to buy from miniature manufacturers that *don't* support the overthrow of democracy.
Togusa wrote: It's just too authoritarian here, which is why I rarely post anymore.
Case in point, the Primaris Chaos thread literally up and vanished in the last 8 hours since I posted in it. No warning, no explanation.
It's just gone. Probably because one of the modes got angry about something or some idea that was put forward in there. Nuking threads is what will drive people away from this place, more so than a few people being belligerent on specific issues.
Nothing to do with mods 'getting angry about something'. The thread had generated a ridiculous number of alerts, and so was temporarily moved into an alternate dimension so it could be looked at properly before it devolved any further.
When threads disappear, rather than just being locked, it's almost always due to one of two things. Either -
- the thread was spiraling into Crazy town, and needs serious pruning
Or
- a mod accidentally hit the 'Delete thread' button that's right beside the 'Lock thread' button.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/22 06:37:00
I should note that in my experience pruning threads is sometimes a lot of work for no gain. I've often seen that once a thread goes south into crazy arguing land; once you prune out the argument those who were involved don't return so the thread dies on its own (basically you just spent ages fixing things for it to die off anyway); or the antagonists return and egos flare up again (especially if you didn't remove the one comment they took as an insult and now take that the mods hate them specifically because they left it in).
It's also hard to prune at times because insults get wrapped up in sane sensible comments in the same post. So you're either going through with a fine toothed comb trying to sift one from the other; or you're dumping whole posts that people feel slighted by because they made one tiny off the collar remark in an otherwise ok post.
Just as a suggestion, for threads like the above, firstly I'd hark back to my original point, are there any long term trolls in there that need to be dealt with? That in my opinion is your first call of action.
Secondly, how about temporary locking of threads, with a post to explain why? Give people a chance to get it back on topic, a clear distinct warning in the thread that it is to be locked for 24-48 hours, and when it re-opened, a clear and distinct warning again that it will be locked immediately if the topic goes off track and any warnings are made.
Whilst I'd argue that certain posters need to be dealt with, the complete lack of information when threads and/or posts go missing without a single explanation does not help things. I'd state it perpetuates certain grievances people have with mods, and that also leads on to people feeling victimised and that mods have favourite posters that they let things slide with... Whether that is true or not.
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endlesswaltz123 wrote: Just as a suggestion, for threads like the above, firstly I'd hark back to my original point, are there any long term trolls in there that need to be dealt with? That in my opinion is your first call of action.
The whole reason for removing the thread temporarily is to give us a chance to look through it properly and figure out what needs dealing with.
Secondly, how about temporary locking of threads, with a post to explain why? Give people a chance to get it back on topic, a clear distinct warning in the thread that it is to be locked for 24-48 hours, and when it re-opened, a clear and distinct warning again that it will be locked immediately if the topic goes off track and any warnings are made.
That's already done, where appropriate. Removing the thread temporarily is done for messier threads where it's going to take a while to clean it out, and so would be confusing as hell for anyone reading it while that process is ongoing, and in some cases the thread just isn't worth the effort and will just be deleted.
Does the thread need to be cleaned up, if a clear and direct warning is made, and another when the thread has reopened?
I'm not suggesting you lock it to allow it to be cleaned, I was suggesting locking it to let the ridiculous flame war that has started to die off.... If it starts again then just nuke the thread, everyone has been given ample warning then.
My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
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That's definitely an option, and I've done it at times (publicly locking a thread for a day or so to let everyone cool off, then re-opening).
As Overread says, sometimes it's a lost cause and we start or ask someone to start a new one. In the case of this particular thread, there were already several mod interventions and one very clear mod warning that same evening, so it was kind of just going off the rails...
The "long term trolls" issue is something this feedback thread definitely brought to light, and that we're focusing on. While we've made some headway, that's a bit of a process - people still deserve a final warning / last chance to reform. But believe me, it has been noted!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/22 13:48:43
One problem I know can be an issue is someone who is a "long term troll" is rarely a troll in the strict sense.
1) They might be someone who in the past was a major contributor who has fallen the side and become more jaded/snarky/off the cuff/etc... over time. So they might have quite a friend following on the site and in general have been around a long while.
2) They might only be "a troll" within certain key subjects and, outside of those situations, are perfectly normal and fine and perhaps even quite key contributors.
The result is sometimes its really hard to ban them because the might be friends; they might be key members in other aspects and they might have quite the following on the site. So mediation comes into play and that can be a very slow and painful process.
Sometimes you can simply remove the hot topics from the site in general - eg the ban on politics and religious debate which are quite common on a lot of sites as its a hot-button topic that can send many into patter 2 as noted above - horrible in political/religious discussion - perfectly fine outside.
Well, Moderation is far more of an art than a science.
The question of how to deal with "bad actors" is a pretty open one. I don't personally go in for blanket bans on topics, because what ends up happening is what happens here, it simply bleeds out into either thinly veiled attempts to circumvent the prohibition, or posts about the prohibition itself (which are both harder to deal with the "offending" posts, in a way).
To me, the better approach is not to moderate topics and issues, but to moderate conduct/behavior/comportment. In other words, a code of conduct that applies to all topics, then adjudicated.
Of course, in the end, all judgement will be judgement still. There will be people who agree/disagree with any and all judgement. But, if there is a fairly clear code of conduct, one can usually adjudicate based on that, rather than on a possibly more biased view of the topic at hand.
In the end, moderating on a large site is tough, because there is no way to please everyone all the time though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/22 14:46:32
"Wir sehen hiermit wieder die Sprache als das Dasein des Geistes." - The Phenomenology of Spirit
Overread wrote: One problem I know can be an issue is someone who is a "long term troll" is rarely a troll in the strict sense.
1) They might be someone who in the past was a major contributor who has fallen the side and become more jaded/snarky/off the cuff/etc... over time. So they might have quite a friend following on the site and in general have been around a long while.
2) They might only be "a troll" within certain key subjects and, outside of those situations, are perfectly normal and fine and perhaps even quite key contributors.
The result is sometimes its really hard to ban them because the might be friends; they might be key members in other aspects and they might have quite the following on the site. So mediation comes into play and that can be a very slow and painful process.
Sometimes you can simply remove the hot topics from the site in general - eg the ban on politics and religious debate which are quite common on a lot of sites as its a hot-button topic that can send many into patter 2 as noted above - horrible in political/religious discussion - perfectly fine outside.
You could be describing me here, if I’m honest. Though I’m less about trolling, more about angry ranting.
I used to be a DCM, tried to be as friendly, appreciative and supportive as possible, but one too many bad experiences in the politics threads has soured all that. I know I shouldn’t let it get to me but it does.
But yeah, it’s a lot more complicated than simply getting rid of people.
I used to be a DCM, tried to be as friendly, appreciative and supportive as possible, but one too many bad experiences in the politics threads has soured all that. I know I shouldn’t let it get to me but it does.
But yeah, it’s a lot more complicated than simply getting rid of people.
And that's why politics is banned on so many general hobby and similar forums. Religion and Politics are two topics where people can get very passionate and very irate very fast. Even though nothing on a hobby forum is going to change the reality of either subject area, people argue with a lot of passion. Fights can so easily break out between otherwise totally calm people and it can grow to a point where some people end up engaging more in them than in the hobby side of the site. It spoils the experience for many involved and can turn them "sour" to the point where they give up on the community. Dropping in and out because its part of their regular habit to check the site; but more often inclined to be bitter, jaded and dislike people/the site more so than not.
It's a sad thing and honestly very hard to recover from. Typically the person needs to get a new burning passion in their hobby but also sometimes step away from the forum for a while and engage in life and reality for a bit then return refreshed and reinvigorated.
Yeah, "awesome except for souring due to the politics threads" can actually describe a lot of long-term posters . It's a big part of why we got rid of it... people were losing friends.
Honestly, I can't think of any place online where I can have a good political discussion at the moment (as opposed to face-to-face, where it's comparatively easy to have one). They might exist somewhere... but it feels a bit like looking for a unicorn, and it's definitely not here lol.
RiTides wrote: Yeah, "awesome except for souring due to the politics threads" can actually describe a lot of long-term posters . It's a big part of why we got rid of it... people were losing friends.
Honestly, I can't think of any place online where I can have a good political discussion at the moment (as opposed to face-to-face, where it's comparatively easy to have one). They might exist somewhere... but it feels a bit like looking for a unicorn, and it's definitely not here lol.
Alot of it comes down to the fact of anonymity on the board. It's a lot more difficult for us socially to say jaded things when there's a vis a vis .
The only way that it could happen is, when you'd have basically a 24 /7 moderator team in there to curb any thing remotly going into insult territory. so basically impossible.
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GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
RiTides wrote: Honestly, I can't think of any place online where I can have a good political discussion at the moment (as opposed to face-to-face, where it's comparatively easy to have one). They might exist somewhere... but it feels a bit like looking for a unicorn, and it's definitely not here lol.
A writing/reading forum I'm on - basically the calmest most sane and sensible place on the net it seems - even had to impose political topic bans. I think there's a "bit" of an internet generation thing involved. However I also think that as times have gone on we've entered some rocky periods where there's also a vast increase in political mistrust between people and politicians. Ergo people are fed up and annoyed and it vents online very very readily.
It's always a minefield of risk and in the end its not "needed" on most sites that are focused on other things. I agree its terribly disheartening to see a site tearing itself apart because of political or ideological misunderstandings and disagreements. Especially when you know that face to face most would have been fine with the disagreement; and when they were friends or at least got on before. When it starts to knock out some big long term contributing people it can really depopulate a site quite scarily fast (Esp today when Facebook has swallowed up a huge number of users to the point where forums are no way near gettingas many new members as they once did - which also makes social issues more of a problem because at a purely functional level; you're not getting replacement users in the same volume to replace any losses.
RiTides wrote: Yeah, "awesome except for souring due to the politics threads" can actually describe a lot of long-term posters . It's a big part of why we got rid of it... people were losing friends.
Honestly, I can't think of any place online where I can have a good political discussion at the moment (as opposed to face-to-face, where it's comparatively easy to have one). They might exist somewhere... but it feels a bit like looking for a unicorn, and it's definitely not here lol.
Well, I belong to (and help moderate) one small community, a forum for a book series, that we have managed to generally have amiable conversations along those lines. It does take work to "enforce" a principle of charitable reading, but that is infinitely easier where the "active user" population is likely several orders of magnitude smaller there than here.
Again though, to me, it is more about comportment than about topics themselves. While people are more likely to be strident in regards to religion or politics, it can apply to anything really. That is where the principle of charity really comes in. But, with an already hard job, enforcing that is much harder than just a blanket ban on given topics. However, I do still think that a blanket ban is at best ineffective, since it tends to simply mask the issue, not deal with it. That is, the forbidden topics are simply thinly alluded to or something similar, making enforcement even more of a nightmare, since now the judgement needs to be if the thin view was quite thin enough.
That likely causes consternation on other's part, who see through the veil, yet see no censure. Then, rather than play a veil-for-a-veil game, make overt statements and are then censured. I can see how people then would be frustrated by enforcement there, in a sense. It is sort of like someone evading a language filter but simply rearranging the letters of a word. No one is really "unclear" on what they were actually trying to say, but yet, by the literal letter of the rule, they did not use the given word. Again, to me, the "ideal" is less to quash topics, but rather to quash behavior in discussing things. That is, to facilitate the action of discourse, rather than limit or prevent it.
Although perhaps I simply have my philosophical hat on too tight though.
"Wir sehen hiermit wieder die Sprache als das Dasein des Geistes." - The Phenomenology of Spirit
A smaller community helps, and as NotOnline said, places where people aren't anonymous also helps (although not completely - see Facebook!).
It can definitely be done, but to be completely honest we're a bit shortstaffed on active mods at the moment (that is another thing this thread has prompted discussion on, although as mentioned earlier the administrative process of bringing on a new mod takes a bit of time). When discussion of it was allowed here, it constituted the majority of the workload, and that workload was increasing as the political climate became more acrimonious recently.
So, for us right now, it's just untenable, and we're still seeing the effects of negative feelings from when it got a bit out of control (and thus finally disallowed), as FWC alluded to (and as probably all of us have seen in some long-time posters). My hope is that over time, folks appreciate the site just as a wargaming destination, and don't "need" to talk politics here. Just like how in a local gaming store, a heated political debate would probably not be welcome. These are important things to talk about... but there are other, far more suitable, places to talk about them
Anyway, I enjoy the "nuts and bolts" discussion aspect of these things, and definitely appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts! Now to go back to polishing my banhammer
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/04/22 19:31:51
Fun story, making explicit reference to 'tit-bondage' is fine, uploading photos of tit-bondage to the Gallery is fine and displaying pics of tit-bondage in a plog is fine, but typing "anus" gets you a warning.
Actually it was a line about eating something rancid out of your own, but yes, anything like that will result in a warning anytime. I'll also note I sent you a PM explaining it, didn't apply a suspension (although technically after a certain number of warnings they're supposed to be automatic) and received no reply from you...
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Does the thread need to be cleaned up, if a clear and direct warning is made, and another when the thread has reopened?
I'm not suggesting you lock it to allow it to be cleaned, I was suggesting locking it to let the ridiculous flame war that has started to die off.... If it starts again then just nuke the thread, everyone has been given ample warning then.
The problem is that people quite often don't read an entire thread before replying, particularly when they come across something that is a bit more confrontational. So when a thread goes off the rails, and we just post a warning rather than removing the posts, what winds up happening is that people respond without seeing the warning, other people who have been following the thread and so only look at the most recent post respond to that, and the whole thing starts up again.
At which point, we're back to locking the thread and suspending people again.
And, to be clear here - suspending people is not a preferred option. So we try to go for the route that is least likely to have the argument start up all over again.
Overread wrote: And that's why politics is banned on so many general hobby and similar forums. Religion and Politics are two topics where people can get very passionate and very irate very fast. Even though nothing on a hobby forum is going to change the reality of either subject area, people argue with a lot of passion. Fights can so easily break out between otherwise totally calm people and it can grow to a point where some people end up engaging more in them than in the hobby side of the site. It spoils the experience for many involved and can turn them "sour" to the point where they give up on the community. Dropping in and out because its part of their regular habit to check the site; but more often inclined to be bitter, jaded and dislike people/the site more so than not.
It's a sad thing and honestly very hard to recover from. Typically the person needs to get a new burning passion in their hobby but also sometimes step away from the forum for a while and engage in life and reality for a bit then return refreshed and reinvigorated.
Very true, and I’ve tried that very thing. But it’s hard to forget about it and move on when the poster or posters who have done it are right there in the threads you’re in, doing exactly same thing as before, unchallenged, and the ignore button isn’t cutting it because other posters keep quoting their posts. So you’ve got no choice but to either grind your teeth or jump at the bait.
Incidentally, it’s happening right now in the Coronavirus thread. There’s a poster in there now, one I’d definitely call a problem poster, doing their usual bit. Ironically, I actually somewhat agree with their latest point, to a point, but they are just so nasty about it it’s grating. Plus all that past history too. If you read through their posts they just ooze condescending arrogance. They are the absolute smartest person in the world and you aren’t just wrong for having another opinion...you’re an idiot...and scum, for having it. Utterly poisons the atmosphere of every thread they set foot in.
RiTides wrote: Actually it was a line about eating something rancid out of your own, but yes, anything like that will result in a warning anytime. I'll also note I sent you a PM explaining it, didn't apply a suspension (although technically after a certain number of warnings they're supposed to be automatic) and received no reply from you...
Yeah, it makes perfect sense. A line from a Bloodhound Gang song violates the PG-13 rules, tit-bondage doesn't. If I had kids, I'd feel safe knowing that they won't be exposed to such concepts as the anus on a forum about war, violence and death.
It was supposed to evoke feelings of disgust, because that is my feeling on the subject. Also, the last time I contacted a mod about one of my warnings, they just gave me another one. So forgive me if I have no confidence in the arbitrary and capricious nature that you all enforce what you claim are the rules.
Since a lot of mods are looking at this thread right now, I'd like to throw a quick "my bad" to whatever mod caught that thread I reported that "belonged in geek media" that was... already in geek media. I had too many tabs open and got confused, sorry!
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
As seeing people getting in hot water for posting rap lyrics on Twitter should show, just because something is in a song doesn't make it okay to say in another setting
As for explicit miniatures, we've always allowed a greater degree of freedom for things that are wargaming related, particularly actual miniatures, although sometimes we ask for spoiler tags or NSFW warnings in threads so people aren't caught by surprise. We've had discussion of that before, and it's a useful thing to talk about, but doesn't make posting what you did okay.
(Also note that "anus" isn't disallowed, or it would be caught by the swear filter, it was your whole sentence that was, frankly, disgusting that was inappropriate)
Edit:
No problem Ouze, there are plenty of erroneous alerts so it probably didn't even move the needle for whoever saw it
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/04/22 20:32:18
Ouze wrote: Since a lot of mods are looking at this thread right now, I'd like to throw a quick "my bad" to whatever mod caught that thread I reported that "belonged in geek media" that was... already in geek media. I had too many tabs open and got confused, sorry!
No harm done.
It's not like you went into a topic you yourself created and started reporting every post you personally disagreed with.
Forty-two alerts by one person.. forty-two alerts I had to go through.
Joking aside, this for most of the people out there that take the time to put in reports: Thank you!!! We can't be everywhere at once, so having people do the right thing by reporting instead of retorting and a bonus pretzel to those who also take the time to put in a helpful description makes things a whole lot easier for us.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/22 21:00:59
Future War Cultist wrote: You’ve probably never read my reports then. They’re short sharp barks. Possibly even got nasty at one point.
At least you say something. I've had reports where a user clearly isn't happy, but they don't say why. People forget that interpretation can vary a lot (indeed a good few internet fights are purely because two people are trying to talk then end up fighting because they keep interpreting what the other person is saying wrongly) and it can be hard to work out why something is reported when there isn't anything apparent being said.
That said never had 42 reports from anyone in a thread before - though yeah "I don't like this/I don't like this person I'm going to report everything" is something I've seen before.
RiTides wrote: As seeing people getting in hot water for posting rap lyrics on Twitter should show, just because something is in a song doesn't make it okay to say in another setting
As for explicit miniatures, we've always allowed a greater degree of freedom for things that are wargaming related, particularly actual miniatures, although sometimes we ask for spoiler tags or NSFW warnings in threads so people aren't caught by surprise. We've had discussion of that before, and it's a useful thing to talk about, but doesn't make posting what you did okay.
(Also note that "anus" isn't disallowed, or it would be caught by the swear filter, it was your whole sentence that was, frankly, disgusting that was inappropriate)
Edit:
No problem Ouze, there are plenty of erroneous alerts so it probably didn't even move the needle for whoever saw it
So why, exactly?
Because you have posted exactly what I did, in composite. Am I to understand that separating the concept of rancid tuna-salad from the concept of an anus somehow saves it? If the whole is beyond the pale, how comes the parts of it aren't?
It wasn't off-topic; it wasn't rudely aimed at another poster; it didn't mention, reference or invoke either politics or religion; I didn't dodge the swear-filter and moderating it was arbitrary and capricious.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/22 21:39:34
. It's a big part of why we got rid of it... people were losing friends.
