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That's alright but it wouldn't hurt to let this thread fall down the page if there's no active moderating issue to discuss (and we are working behind the scenes on many of the things previously talked about in this thread).

 Ketara wrote:

 ValentineGames wrote:

But you'll always catch the regulars constantly belittling and bullying people, never get a post removed, never get a post edited while treating lesser posters as garbage.

People say that sort of thing, but I can think of many a 'regular' who very much isn't around anymore for that sort of behaviour.

I can think of several. Simply check my ignore list (if you can see such a thing) for multiple examples.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 ValentineGames wrote:

But you'll always catch the regulars constantly belittling and bullying people, never get a post removed, never get a post edited while treating lesser posters as garbage.

People say that sort of thing, but I can think of many a 'regular' who very much isn't around anymore for that sort of behaviour.

I can think of several. Simply check my ignore list (if you can see such a thing) for multiple examples.

In my experience mods tend to react more to what they see and what gets reported. Remember interpretation is a thing. Its possible to have a heated discussion between two people without either feeling insulted; similar I've seen people take offence at the most benign of comments. If you don't report it and explain in the report then the mods might not see insults that you see even if they see the post (country to popular belief mods don't read everything).

 Overread wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 ValentineGames wrote:

But you'll always catch the regulars constantly belittling and bullying people, never get a post removed, never get a post edited while treating lesser posters as garbage.

People say that sort of thing, but I can think of many a 'regular' who very much isn't around anymore for that sort of behaviour.

I can think of several. Simply check my ignore list (if you can see such a thing) for multiple examples.

In my experience mods tend to react more to what they see and what gets reported. Remember interpretation is a thing. Its possible to have a heated discussion between two people without either feeling insulted; similar I've seen people take offence at the most benign of comments. If you don't report it and explain in the report then the mods might not see insults that you see even if they see the post (country to popular belief mods don't read everything).

Oh please, you know exactly who I'm referring to. Shall we start with a certain someone who is a fan of a band containing Kerry King? No point in engaging these condescending individuals, nor reporting them as nothing is done. Let them run free and thing they're big guy on campus as they flex their epeens on how much they can dominate 40k and anyone with an opposing opinion to them is beneath them.

I have no idea who you mean - nor who Kerry King is.

This is why there's report systems - if you don't report it then it won't get seen. You might see it clear as day. I don't, the mods might not - and if you just report without commenting they might not see your point of view.

You're already using the ignore system so if that isn't working and if you're not reporting things then there's no potential for change.


Also just because an insult within a post isn't necessarily removed doesn't mean nothing happened

Grimtuff, many long time users might get your implication, but let's not go any further down that road as we don't want to talk about folks who can no longer post, and thus can't defend themselves (this is always our policy, everywhere on the site, even the DCM section - if someone doesn't have access to it, we ask that they not be discussed there).

 Grimtuff wrote:

Oh please, you know exactly who I'm referring to. Shall we start with a certain someone who is a fan of a band containing Kerry King? No point in engaging these condescending individuals, nor reporting them as nothing is done. Let them run free and thing they're big guy on campus as they flex their epeens on how much they can dominate 40k and anyone with an opposing opinion to them is beneath them.

Without going into specifics, I would point out that the user you're referring to has received more warnings and suspensions than you have. And that's a few.

This is what we mean when we keep saying that the fact you don't personally see the result doesn't actually mean that nothing is happening. Reporting posts that you think are an issue does get results. We're just not always going to agree with you on whether or not a specific post is actually a problem.

 Overread wrote:
There's a difference between a public notice


"Future War Cultist suspended for 2 weeks for swearing at members and moderators"


What you describe above which sounds like they want public apologies, but also seem to have very variable to no standards of moderation. Once you are or have the perception of, banning for frivolous things then the whole moderation system - no matter how you run it - is going to become a mess; which will result in a messy argumentative and hostile forum often one where people are unsure what to do or say since everything is open to being taken as rule breaching by moderators with no standards.

You’re right. And now I’m annoyed that I’ve let my experiences of that gak hole affect my experience here.

The very fact this thread is 6 pages long shows the mods are not bad. On badly moderated forums like rpg.net the moddisars would have locked the thread immediately and banhammered the OP.

Likewise on SJgames.com any criticism of the mods is instantly silenced and the poster usually threatened or banned.

So the fact this thread is still open and the op isn't banned tells me the mods here are generally ok.

You’re right. I’m sure I’d be banned by now if they weren’t.

That other site that will remain nameless, my ban started with me questioning all the jumping for joy at the passing of Margaret Thatcher going on, not to mention one posters declaration that the Prime Minister deserved to lose his child.

I said I found all this to be in extremely bad taste, but I was warned for disrupting the thread. One thing lead to another and I told them to shove it, earning a permanent ban for it. The place was a comically stereotypical echo chamber; disagreeing with the consensus set by the mod of the thread was against the rules, period.


So in hindsight maybe Dakka isn’t so bad. But know that this is why I’m tetchy about double standards in moderation; I had a few good friends on that site that I lost contact with thanks to the incident and I’m still sore about it.

 Manchu wrote:
I have noticed over the years that posters who get into trouble a lot tend to see the whole concept of moderation as some kind of legal system where they can demand appeals and even try to “bring charges” against other users (and of course, especially against mods).

This is a category mistake,

What’s actually going on is something entirely different. What we want is discussion of toy soldiers, related topics, and to some extent unrelated topics. The only point of the rules is to facilitate that goal. Suspending people’s accounts is presumptively contrary to that goal, as is deleting users’ posts. As far as possible, it’s best to avoid such harsh actions.

Having a kind of “public punishment” function seems to have more in common with the mistaken “legal paradigm” and less in common with the accurate paradigm of wanting as many people as possible to contribute to as many conversations as possible.

There's a poster or two here that seem to get away with things but your whats actually going on could just about explain it as well. I have to ask myself as much as I agree with that whole paragraph, would it be worth changing that philosophy to get rid of those one or two individuals and that's an easy no. So please no significant changes.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
And we don't actually have any distinction in the system between a 'suspension' and a 'ban'...

But what about a bane?

That's for.. special cases.

Ahhh. You think that poopy-posting is your ally. But you merely adopted the spam. I was born in it. Moulded by it. I hadn’t seen the rules until I was already a man, and by then they were too confusing for me to make sense of. Idiocy betrays you, because it belongs to me!

Okay, I actually laughed

Jerram wrote:
I have to ask myself as much as I agree with that whole paragraph, would it be worth changing that philosophy to get rid of those one or two individuals and that's an easy no.

Yes, this is the same conclusion that I have come to in thinking through it over the years.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
You’re right. I’m sure I’d be banned by now if they weren’t.

That other site that will remain nameless, my ban started with me questioning all the jumping for joy at the passing of Margaret Thatcher going on, not to mention one posters declaration that the Prime Minister deserved to lose his child.

I said I found all this to be in extremely bad taste, but I was warned for disrupting the thread. One thing lead to another and I told them to shove it, earning a permanent ban for it. The place was a comically stereotypical echo chamber; disagreeing with the consensus set by the mod of the thread was against the rules, period.


So in hindsight maybe Dakka isn’t so bad. But know that this is why I’m tetchy about double standards in moderation; I had a few good friends on that site that I lost contact with thanks to the incident and I’m still sore about it.

So was it maclennan that banned you and did he make a snarky taunt at you when he did?

I’ve found myself still reporting posts (but with better descriptions now) but what I’m not going to do is get annoyed when nothing is seemingly done about them. Because I can understand the process a bit better now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt Swain wrote:
So was it maclennan that banned you and did he make a snarky taunt at you when he did?

I don’t know who that is. But yes, the mod who did it was very snarky and condescending. Actually there were two; the first one who was deleting my posts and giving me the warning? Very confrontational and belligerent. The second one who wanted me to repent in the sin bin? Snarky, arrogant and condescending.

Eh, feth them.

Resentment costs you your strength. Bitterness will defeat you.

Not sure if I can work much more Bane-ings into this thread. This is already a stretch. In all seriousness though, FWC, we’ve lived through worse Forums. Bring back that positive guy, I miss him.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Resentment costs you your strength. Bitterness will defeat you.

Not sure if I can work much more Bane-ings into this thread. This is already a stretch. In all seriousness though, FWC, we’ve lived through worse Forums. Bring back that positive guy, I miss him.

I miss him too. I’ll take your advice onboard.

Bringing this conversation here from the 3d print thread;

 Theophony wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
I would hope that we could do a better job of holding sellers/designers to one thread which they need to update. The forums for “other” games is full of the same people who constantly pump out painting or gameplay videos and make multiple threads for their business.

So, as an aside, that's a different problem - vendors are not supposed to be doing that, and if they are, you should report the threads so a moderator can ask them to consolidate their updates. The expectation as I understand it they generally need to stick to one thread, especially if\when they are starting new threads frequently.

Though I enjoy a bunch of the painting and gaming ones, some like GMG put up a new thread with each video they do. I enjoy them and Ash, but when I went looking in the alternate game section there are dozens of videos for all sorts of systems.

Has anyone else seen this as a problem? I tend to be the most active mod in the other games sections and whilst I do recognise what is being said I have no issue with it as the handful of people who do this tend to post on very different subjects (game reviews, different historical eras etc.) and those forums move so slowly that I haven't found it overwhelming.
Unless it is for people actually selling stuff in which case they do need to stick to one thread (and that one in N&R).

 ingtaer wrote:
Bringing this conversation here from the 3d print thread;

 Theophony wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
I would hope that we could do a better job of holding sellers/designers to one thread which they need to update. The forums for “other” games is full of the same people who constantly pump out painting or gameplay videos and make multiple threads for their business.

So, as an aside, that's a different problem - vendors are not supposed to be doing that, and if they are, you should report the threads so a moderator can ask them to consolidate their updates. The expectation as I understand it they generally need to stick to one thread, especially if\when they are starting new threads frequently.

Though I enjoy a bunch of the painting and gaming ones, some like GMG put up a new thread with each video they do. I enjoy them and Ash, but when I went looking in the alternate game section there are dozens of videos for all sorts of systems.

Has anyone else seen this as a problem? I tend to be the most active mod in the other games sections and whilst I do recognise what is being said I have no issue with it as the handful of people who do this tend to post on very different subjects (game reviews, different historical eras etc.) and those forums move so slowly that I haven't found it overwhelming.
Unless it is for people actually selling stuff in which case they do need to stick to one thread (and that one in N&R).

Looking just now at the Misc. other games the first page is dominated by one webpage having 18 posts for their videos and reviews. While they are on different games and topics, they are all clickbait for their sites. Another poster had 5 topics about different aspects of one game. A third also has 5 threads. I think these choke out manufacturers who could be getting visibility. These are just on the first page.

I think I misunderstood the problem earlier. By vendors, I meant like, the guys who make a game - ie Puppetswar shouldn't be starting a new thread for every product release. What you're describing is a single user posting a lot of batreps to essentially flog their YouTube channel where they flog merch, which is a little different.

I think you should consider that your concern is they are pushing off manufacturers who could get visibility - is that actually happening? The very first page of misc games goes all the way back to December 2019. Given that person's posting habits, a new thread about X vendors new games would be in the top third of the first page for at least 2 months easy. There are a lot of batreps for sure, and I see how that might be irritating if you frequent that forum a lot - but I don't think anyone is actually getting pushed off.

Okay, I can see that.
From the way I look at it the person who has 18 threads are all for different games and are spread out over nearly 6 months, they also post the video here and it is not just "click through to my site/blog" which I really despise.
On the other two again I note that those threads are spread out over months.
We have had 2 users who were making multiple threads (and in one instance very tangentially related to the sub) both of which have now consolidated into single threads but this was due to the rapiditiy with which they posted.

You state that these posters choke out other manufactures but I reiterate that the oldest thread on that forum's first page is nearly 6 months old, if there was such interest in other stuff being posted it would have been and would have knocked other threads off the front page.
Whilst I can see your point and for places like N&R that move with such rapidity consolidated threads are necessary, I just dont see how making these people consolidate threads would prove beneficial in a forum that moves so slowly.

I'm with Theo on this.

Ok, the subs in question are slow moving, but equally the posts in question rarely attract any discussion and sometimes hardly any post views even relative to other threads in the same sub, which is the best metric I have as a non administrative user to conclude that they're not adding a lot of value to it.

I'm not suggesting that the people who make content should be stopped, but I think perhaps expanding the articles section or similar to include all user generated content could be something worth trying?

I see what you guys are saying, but...

I’ve been bored and looking for new games to try out, wanting something smaller, not a huge manufacturer like GW, FFG, or Pivateer Press. I go to look in the Misc other threads and find thread after thread of posts by one or two people and feel they are probably getting some sort of kickback from the manufacturer. Whether or not they are getting anything from those manufacturers, it’s still what one other group is playing so not a good variety of what’s being seen or played in the greater scheme.

Also if I were a game creator I would feel cockblocked by such tactics in a forum. It’s the grocery store analogy of I can’t get placement for my brand because XYZ brand churns out 20 different things and takes higher placement than me. I have seen companies in retail environments that pull great product out of stores because they can’t get decent visibility. I think that could be happening here too. Why would these companies bother with having a thread on here if they can’t compete be seen.

I know I’m not being too eloquent right now, Massive allergy headache, but I believe it needs to be re-evaluated. I’ve had bunches of blogs here. Hundreds of pages. Dozens of topics and games. Why is it that I can go back and readjust my thread title to show my latest interest when these guys can’t be bothered? They want placement and visibility. To pick on GMG for a moment, with the preface of I generally enjoy their videos and I’ve gotten a few games by watching them. Couldn’t they do one thread with a title like GMG video battle reports: now featuring xxxxxxxxx. And just update the title when they do a new video? Edit the first post with an index of what page different games are on. That would make the sub forum more open. Have a link to their YouTube channel which is actually where I watch their videos anyway. My current 70 page thread has had the main title edited 16 times my old 198 page thread I edited 66 times for change of directions with projects and games. The fact that they don’t do this is more of a showing of how they are pump and dumping to get traffic.

If we slim down the thread then some basic maintenance can be helpful. Move completed kickstarters to the subforums instead of them lingering in the News and Rumors forum. Once again it’ll make finding things easier. He owners of the threads can locate them by looking under their threads started links. Having functional sub forums will help small time games get traction just by getting visibility.

I need caffeine to get rid of this headache, I’ll check back when I can make more sense.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Resentment costs you your strength. Bitterness will defeat you.

Not sure if I can work much more Bane-ings into this thread. This is already a stretch. In all seriousness though, FWC, we’ve lived through worse Forums. Bring back that positive guy, I miss him.

You merely adopted bitterness...

 Theophony wrote:
I see what you guys are saying, but...

I’ve been bored and looking for new games to try out, wanting something smaller, not a huge manufacturer like GW, FFG, or Pivateer Press. I go to look in the Misc other threads and find thread after thread of posts by one or two people and feel they are probably getting some sort of kickback from the manufacturer. Whether or not they are getting anything from those manufacturers, it’s still what one other group is playing so not a good variety of what’s being seen or played in the greater scheme.

Also if I were a game creator I would feel cockblocked by such tactics in a forum. It’s the grocery store analogy of I can’t get placement for my brand because XYZ brand churns out 20 different things and takes higher placement than me. I have seen companies in retail environments that pull great product out of stores because they can’t get decent visibility. I think that could be happening here too. Why would these companies bother with having a thread on here if they can’t compete be seen.

I know I’m not being too eloquent right now, Massive allergy headache, but I believe it needs to be re-evaluated. I’ve had bunches of blogs here. Hundreds of pages. Dozens of topics and games. Why is it that I can go back and readjust my thread title to show my latest interest when these guys can’t be bothered? They want placement and visibility. To pick on GMG for a moment, with the preface of I generally enjoy their videos and I’ve gotten a few games by watching them. Couldn’t they do one thread with a title like GMG video battle reports: now featuring xxxxxxxxx. And just update the title when they do a new video? Edit the first post with an index of what page different games are on. That would make the sub forum more open. Have a link to their YouTube channel which is actually where I watch their videos anyway. My current 70 page thread has had the main title edited 16 times my old 198 page thread I edited 66 times for change of directions with projects and games. The fact that they don’t do this is more of a showing of how they are pump and dumping to get traffic.

If we slim down the thread then some basic maintenance can be helpful. Move completed kickstarters to the subforums instead of them lingering in the News and Rumors forum. Once again it’ll make finding things easier. He owners of the threads can locate them by looking under their threads started links. Having functional sub forums will help small time games get traction just by getting visibility.

I need caffeine to get rid of this headache, I’ll check back when I can make more sense.

Going to quote you so I am sorry if you go back and edit the original post, which by the way is perfectly fine and makes good sense.
I am not sure how to respond to the issue of people getting stuff from manufacturers for their posting reviews and the like (other than to wonder how I sign up!), I really do not see it as an issue. I have come across a fair few such posts over the years, mostly in N&R and they have never altered my opinion on a product one way or another and I would imagine that holds true for most people. If we like the look of a product we will buy it, if we do not then no amount of shilling or showmanship will convince us and often will have the opposite effect? I know I have seen many posts where people rage at others for pushing a bit too hard on various products.

On how this effects creators/manufacturers, I do know for a fact that we have at least six who post semi regularly in the four lowest misc. forums and they do not seem to be overly effected. Indeed one of them pushes other games quite regularly. If anyone is feeling that way I would certainly urge them to join in and post more about their stuff where it is appropriate (we do have a games development sub as well), the best way to make themselves more visible is to actually post! Again, I think that those forums are so slow moving that the only way they could be pushed out is if the traffic increases dramatically. Which I would think was fantastic as I would love to hear more about these less talked about games and it might encourage them to post more?

On the blogs, this I wholeheartedly agree with. If someone is blogging about something then they really should be keeping to a single thread, I do with my B5 ACTA thread (which I have not updated in ages...) and there are others that do the same whether through their own choice or because they were told too. Personally I do not feel that the likes of GMG need to do the same as they cover a wide range of topics that are pretty unrelated, those that I have looked at anyway, so it might stifle/hamper discussion if they were made to but I do agree that if they are on the same or very similar topics then it should be blogged. However, looking through some of the other boards I do see that some people are indeed posting a thread at a time for individual battle reports in a series and worse just posting a link to their blog in doing so. Now this is purely personal and is ingtær as a user of dakka and not ingtær the mod, but I really hate that. it is not something against our policies but I don't like to see it. I will however raise those interrelated points with the other mods and see how they feel on the matter.

On the moving of kickstarters, if after completion/delivery they are still generating discussion then I whole heartedly agree with you. I will try and be more aware when looking in N&R and shuffle things over when its time.

@Azreal13 and Theophony, this is certainly something that will be looked at in the future, when we've got the time for it and when we've received our reinforcements.

All I can say is, I've made attempts in the past, only for people to either ignore it or to demand that we, the mods, do all the merging and whatnot for them.

Nerve of some people..



edit.

And ninja'd by my favourite kiwi mod.

Some great suggestions here, guys thanks for taking the time to write them up!

As Brook said, reinforcenents could definitely help with this, wheels are turning on that

I've always held the view that a mod team needs to be bigger than it needs to by at least one or two moderators. It's very easy for a volunteer to get sidetracked or to just not want to hobby any more or engage with the community as much. Even regular uses drift in and out of a site.

When a mod does it, you can go from a well moderated site to one where the mods are a bit overstretched.

Another, bigger, issue is when there are specific tasks for a specific mod and that mod takes a holiday without telling anyone. Perhaps life just gets in the way; or they lose interest or just feel overworked (remember whilst most tasks aren't much they do eat into the community engagement time and sometimes people just get sick of turning up to do "their duties" and get nothing "back" from the site).

That's why I think any specific moderator task should be shared between two or three mods. That way if one vanishes, there's already a backup of other mods who know what to do; that they should do it and don't need to be organised or told or have to work things out. They can just get on and do it.