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I doubt this, but maybe the data sheets for the vanguard units will be released as website downloads.

They already did that before, and specifically disallowed Deathwatch from having them.

 Kanluwen wrote:
They already did that before, and specifically disallowed Deathwatch from having them.

“Did not include on the list” and “disallowed” and with no chance in the future for them to be added are not the same.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Am I missing something or are a lot of people upset about what may or may not be in the WD article based solely on the preview? Not trying to me facetious, just genuinely curious.

Well, obviously I cannot speak for everyone, but for me it comes down to several factors.

Although the new bonuses will improve the play of the Deathwatch, I wanted some more inspiration for the army in PA.
With it being a WD article we knew there would not be a new model coming, which would have been nice, but other lines need more (although forgive me for not seeing why a new Fabius Bile was needed, or why Knights, Chaos Knights needed anything in a book instead of a WD article over Deathwatch and Harlequins).


The biggest thing I believe people wanted was the addition of a Vanguard kill team and associated units. Trouble is, I can see why GW won't do this at this time (but will do so in the future).
Unit availability. Incursors, Infiltrators and Reivers are already good to go and take a DW shoulder pad no problem. But what about the rest of the kits?
None of the characters currently work for Deathwatch, but you can easily make a Phobos Captain from Reivers and parts from the Eliminator kit (except GW is reluctant to do the kitbash method these days)
Suppressors need a kit before they can take a DW shoulder pad, and would make an integral part of a Vanguard kill team (allowing for fall back and shoot, stopping overwatch, etc)
Eliminators also have issues with shoulder pads (DW ones would need to be trimmed), but don't necessarily need to translate over to Deathwatch anyway.
Invictor warsuits are an easy shoe in, should be added.
Impulsors...not sure if needed really, but easy inclusion.
So basically holding this back is a suitable character and a suppressor kit, Both could be solved in the future but was not going to happen in a WD.

So what are we getting?

Litanies are definitely a bonus as you don't see Chaplains frequently in Deathwatch armies right now. +1 to hit litany definitely useful (doesn't have to be vs closest target).
Doctrines are a shady choice, depending how they work (if at all) with SIA. GW already reeled back on Bolter Discipline, might do the same for Doctrines. Still, it helps for Aggressors, Inceptors, Turn 1 Missile launchers, frag cannons, etc. I will be curious to see how this is implemented.
The base strats will also be welcome, but some are very niche,

What we don't get currently are improvements to what Deathwatch players have been asking for for a long time. The Corvus Blackstar needs significant improvement, but now will probably have to pay 1CP each turn to not get move and fire penalty (assuming we get Big Guns Never Tire). Duty Eternal needs to change to match current ruling and not great for Deathwatch anyway.
(I will caveat that I don't have any FW in my Deathwatch, so none of my notes here takes that into consideration)

DW can get some use out of strats though as they can farm CPs with Lord of Hidden Knowledge (most oft used warlord trait) and adding a Xenos Inquisitor with Esoteric Knowledge warlord trait. This should yield roughly a CP a turn back.

So for the most part, most are pissed because there is very little effort applied. Nothing new added to a limited line of options with much of the codex ignored.

They could have at least added a deathwatch specific litany, or a super doctrine. Let's at least hope there is a strat to combat GSC (currently lacking), but I do not expect that to happen at all.

Ultimately, my wish list? I want to see a Vanguard kill team, Vanguard HQ choice and a new Corvus like flyer to transport them. I feel I will be waiting a long time.

In the meantime, I'll use my Ravenguard phobos dudes inside a Corvus equivalent for narrative play stuff.

I absolutely hate that they thought it was some great idea to advertise the Vanguard Reinforcements for Killteam with a guy that made them Deathwatch and then not actually allow for them to be used in DEATHWATCH! Interestingly enough, at this point, they didn’t include the Supressor in the White Dwarf, so you have to wonder if when (if ever) we do get a Vanguard Killteam for Deathwatch in 40K and Killteam, will it actually include the Supressor?

Smaug wrote:
I doubt this, but maybe the data sheets for the vanguard units will be released as website downloads.

Riiiight. They will release new models and have them in website release. Yep. Sounds plausible.

Remember: No model, no rules. You need vanquards with deathwatch shoulder pads for rules.

tneva82 wrote:

Smaug wrote:
I doubt this, but maybe the data sheets for the vanguard units will be released as website downloads.

Riiiight. They will release new models and have them in website release. Yep. Sounds plausible.

Remember: No model, no rules. You need vanquards with deathwatch shoulder pads for rules.

Any reason the existing shoulder pads won't fit on infiltrators? If you're saying its because there isn't a phobos shoulder, maybe they need to take reivers out the army.

Most of the deathwatch units don’t have deathwatch shoulder pads included. If you want deathwatch terminators, or bikes or vanguard veterans, you have to purchase an upgrade kit on top...

If shoulder pads fit some of the vanguard kits, those kits just need an upgrade spruce added.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Most of the deathwatch units don’t have deathwatch shoulder pads included. If you want deathwatch terminators, or bikes or vanguard veterans, you have to purchase an upgrade kit on top...

If shoulder pads fit some of the vanguard kits, those kits just need an upgrade spruce added.

That bolded part is the killer. They don't. The pads aren't replacable. You can add upgrade kit but it's not much of help because YOU CANNOT PUT THEM THERE. Not without scratch building with knife and GW doesn't support rules if you need to scratch build. They rather remove entry from brand new codex rather than leave it even though it's ridiculously easy kitbash(add spare bolter and cut off plasma pistol...) which people already had done assuming their brand new codex would be reliable.

No models, no rules. Unless GW releases new sprue with deathwatch marked replacement parts no luck.

Sucks but that's how GW operates. Expecting rules without models is just setting yourself for dissapointment. If you can't build something from gw kits you can't have rules for it.

I want to put this to bed. YES YOU CAN. Incursors, Reivers, Infiltrators all have the same pads. The deathwatch pad fits on the left arm, where it's supposed to go, without any knife work. There is no reason whatsoever, from a modelling perspective, to exlcude phobos marines from DW. As bullyboy pointed out, there is a problem with phobos characters however, because they are single-pose models. How do you think us DW players have been running Reivers for the past two years?

 grouchoben wrote:
I want to put this to bed. YES YOU CAN. Incursors, Reivers, Infiltrators all have the same pads. The deathwatch pad fits on the left arm, where it's supposed to go, without any knife work. There is no reason whatsoever, from a modelling perspective, to exlcude phobos marines from DW. As bullyboy pointed out, there is a problem with phobos characters however, because they are single-pose models. How do you think us DW players have been running Reivers for the past two years?

From a modelling perspective you are right - the multi part incursor/infiltrators could easily be given a shoulder pad and therefore make the cut. But from a rules perspective this is much less likely to happen, things like the comms array would not function due to no model no rules on the related officers so a simple copy paste of the datasheets wouldn't work. If by some miracle new multi part models do appear and everything ports over to DW the idea of either a vanguard kill team or new phobos units in the old intercessor kill team creates a bit of a rules headache as passing concealed positions on to other dudes would likely be deemed too strong, and the interaction of phobos psychic powers/warlord traits with mixed squads will create problems - the most likely scenario is these units will just not appear in DW as they cannot function without alteration to rules and currently there are no variances between generic units cross codices.

Insularum wrote:
]From a modelling perspective you are right - the multi part incursor/infiltrators could easily be given a shoulder pad and therefore make the cut. But from a rules perspective this is much less likely to happen, things like the comms array would not function due to no model no rules on the related officers so a simple copy paste of the datasheets wouldn't work. If by some miracle new multi part models do appear and everything ports over to DW the idea of either a vanguard kill team or new phobos units in the old intercessor kill team creates a bit of a rules headache as passing concealed positions on to other dudes would likely be deemed too strong, and the interaction of phobos psychic powers/warlord traits with mixed squads will create problems - the most likely scenario is these units will just not appear in DW as they cannot function without alteration to rules and currently there are no variances between generic units cross codices.

So lets's get this straight, the reason that rules dont exist is because it would take a modicum of effort to actually write them?

That's a sack of crap.

Insularum wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
I want to put this to bed. YES YOU CAN. Incursors, Reivers, Infiltrators all have the same pads. The deathwatch pad fits on the left arm, where it's supposed to go, without any knife work. There is no reason whatsoever, from a modelling perspective, to exlcude phobos marines from DW. As bullyboy pointed out, there is a problem with phobos characters however, because they are single-pose models. How do you think us DW players have been running Reivers for the past two years?

From a modelling perspective you are right - the multi part incursor/infiltrators could easily be given a shoulder pad and therefore make the cut. But from a rules perspective this is much less likely to happen, things like the comms array would not function due to no model no rules on the related officers so a simple copy paste of the datasheets wouldn't work. If by some miracle new multi part models do appear and everything ports over to DW the idea of either a vanguard kill team or new phobos units in the old intercessor kill team creates a bit of a rules headache as passing concealed positions on to other dudes would likely be deemed too strong, and the interaction of phobos psychic powers/warlord traits with mixed squads will create problems - the most likely scenario is these units will just not appear in DW as they cannot function without alteration to rules and currently there are no variances between generic units cross codices.

yeah, I'm not buying that at all. A vanguard kill-team would require a single entry, just like current vets and Intercessors in deathwatch. The first choice would be which specialist do they feel is the core? Incursors, or Infiltrators? The best solution would be to make it a purely choice of one or the other, so you have your first 5 marines. You could add Reivers, Suppressors and more infiltrators or incursors.
As for rules, Concealed Positions (gives a new element to deathwatch), Smoke grenades applies to all.
Then you have the specific rules for each element: Infiltrators allow Omni Scramblers (measure from infil only), Coms Array (only if they make a DW Lt or Captain...even though you can do this yourself with the Infil kits...but I get it, no model no rules, so just don't have Comms Array as an option, same as helix adept as that is only available in ETB anyway). Incursors allow use of haywire mine and multi-spectrum array. Suppressors get Suppressing Fire. Reiver as normal.
This is of course waiting for the Suppressor kit. i don't see the point of adding a kill team without option for something like this to be added.

Its amusing amidst all this to do with Deathwatch that there has still been no official word about the necrons. I mean even when they revealed Pariah I dont think they actually mentioned necrons being in the book did they? We are all just assuming they will be?

I mean at least Harlequins and Deathwatch know where their rules are going to be!

Sterling191 wrote:So lets's get this straight, the reason that rules dont exist is because it would take a modicum of effort to actually write them?

That's a sack of crap.

The amount of effort isn't really a factor, in general models precede rules which currently excludes most phobos units, and going simply by GW's track record on every other cross-codex unit/wargear/stratagem if the units are not aligned they won't be copied over. Currently this means only incursors as a unit has both compliant models and a compatible datasheet, but as they come in a dual purpose kit I reckon it's very unlikely to happen right now. It sucks, but when trying to second guess GW you have to look at their recent behaviour.

bullyboy wrote:yeah, I'm not buying that at all. A vanguard kill-team would require a single entry, just like current vets and Intercessors in deathwatch. The first choice would be which specialist do they feel is the core? Incursors, or Infiltrators? The best solution would be to make it a purely choice of one or the other, so you have your first 5 marines. You could add Reivers, Suppressors and more infiltrators or incursors.
As for rules, Concealed Positions (gives a new element to deathwatch), Smoke grenades applies to all.
Then you have the specific rules for each element: Infiltrators allow Omni Scramblers (measure from infil only), Coms Array (only if they make a DW Lt or Captain...even though you can do this yourself with the Infil kits...but I get it, no model no rules, so just don't have Comms Array as an option, same as helix adept as that is only available in ETB anyway). Incursors allow use of haywire mine and multi-spectrum array. Suppressors get Suppressing Fire. Reiver as normal.
This is of course waiting for the Suppressor kit. i don't see the point of adding a kill team without option for something like this to be added.

I would love to see this happen, I just don't think that it will.

I'm a huge DW fan. They've been my army since before there was a codex. I want the Vanguard units as much as the rest of you. However, I don't think this update is a disaster if we don't get the Vanguard units.

Updated litanies, stratagems, and combat doctrines will do incredible things for the competitiveness of DW. These new elements combined with SIA, unique weapon options/unit builds, everything is a veteran, mission tactics, the existing stratagem doctrines, and access to teleportation really make the army incredibly versatile and powerful. If we also get SIA stacking with Bolter Discipline and the new wording/costs for the librarian discipline, I'm going to be pretty satisfied with what this update is doing for the competitiveness of DW even without getting Vanguard units.

Did I want more, yes. I still have to warsuits new in packaging waiting for the day they become available for DW. But, I feel like we're forgetting just how nasty DW's unique rules are.

Yeah if people don’t think that combat doctrines stacking with SIA is going to be a massive boost...the those people are wrong.

Don't call me Heretic, as I am also a DW player... but just out of curiosity: Who said that there should be a special Vanguard Kill Team?
In my Head it always was "OldMarines vs Primaris". Since Vanguards are Primaris, too, they may be integrated in the Fortis Kill Teams (which already include Vanguard-type marines with the Reivers) or just left being separate units on their own.
And that last point could be one sentence as it was done with BA/DA/SW

 greyknight12 wrote:
Yeah if people don’t think that combat doctrines stacking with SIA is going to be a massive boost...the those people are wrong.

Given Bolter Discipline didn't stack with SIA, I wouldn't take it for granted that they'll stack properly with the Combat Doctrines, regardless of what the article implies.

Not allowing the Impulsor, at the very least, is a weird choice - it'd help whatever-the-Primaris-kill-team-is-called with their mobility.

Pyrosphere wrote:
Don't call me Heretic, as I am also a DW player... but just out of curiosity: Who said that there should be a special Vanguard Kill Team?
In my Head it always was "OldMarines vs Primaris". Since Vanguards are Primaris, too, they may be integrated in the Fortis Kill Teams (which already include Vanguard-type marines with the Reivers) or just left being separate units on their own.
And that last point could be one sentence as it was done with BA/DA/SW

That would be so gross. They have been making a difference between Aquila, Furor, Venator, Dominator, and Malleus Killteams, then throw in Fortis as a generic Primaris catch-all.

Pyrosphere wrote:Don't call me Heretic, as I am also a DW player... but just out of curiosity: Who said that there should be a special Vanguard Kill Team?
In my Head it always was "OldMarines vs Primaris". Since Vanguards are Primaris, too, they may be integrated in the Fortis Kill Teams (which already include Vanguard-type marines with the Reivers) or just left being separate units on their own.
And that last point could be one sentence as it was done with BA/DA/SW

The Intercessor (Fortis Kill team) datasheet is already massive. Its far simpler, more thematic, and from a balance perspective safer, to structure them within a discrete separate unit.

lifeafter wrote:I'm a huge DW fan. They've been my army since before there was a codex. I want the Vanguard units as much as the rest of you. However, I don't think this update is a disaster if we don't get the Vanguard units.

Updated litanies, stratagems, and combat doctrines will do incredible things for the competitiveness of DW. These new elements combined with SIA, unique weapon options/unit builds, everything is a veteran, mission tactics, the existing stratagem doctrines, and access to teleportation really make the army incredibly versatile and powerful. If we also get SIA stacking with Bolter Discipline and the new wording/costs for the librarian discipline, I'm going to be pretty satisfied with what this update is doing for the competitiveness of DW even without getting Vanguard units.

Did I want more, yes. I still have to warsuits new in packaging waiting for the day they become available for DW. But, I feel like we're forgetting just how nasty DW's unique rules are.

You're exceptionally optimistic if you think any of what you stated is going to happen.

Insularum wrote: The amount of effort isn't really a factor, in general models precede rules which currently excludes most phobos units, and going simply by GW's track record on every other cross-codex unit/wargear/stratagem if the units are not aligned they won't be copied over. Currently this means only incursors as a unit has both compliant models and a compatible datasheet, but as they come in a dual purpose kit I reckon it's very unlikely to happen right now. It sucks, but when trying to second guess GW you have to look at their recent behaviour.

GW have had more than a year to get their gak together with regards to Phobos units.

As for Pariah, I expect a very big deal for Necrons, including a new model. There just isn't anything else that can be added, unless they are releasing a brand new army in the near future. It's the last book in the series so will need some kind of bang/cliffhanger, so it will be interesting to see what's up. Might get some kind of inkling in the reveal this weekend (although doubtful with how poor they've been so far).

Yes, I think what I want is optimistic. It's what I hope for, not necessarily what I expect.

What I I'm now for sure expecting is what's already been announced. And what's been announced is good, with the potential of being great depending on the final verdicts of how the new doctrines and bolter discipline will interact with SIA.

The stratagems and litanies are in themselves a good enough upgrade for DW to make them competetive.

 lifeafter wrote:
I'm a huge DW fan. They've been my army since before there was a codex. I want the Vanguard units as much as the rest of you. However, I don't think this update is a disaster if we don't get the Vanguard units.

Updated litanies, stratagems, and combat doctrines will do incredible things for the competitiveness of DW. These new elements combined with SIA, unique weapon options/unit builds, everything is a veteran, mission tactics, the existing stratagem doctrines, and access to teleportation really make the army incredibly versatile and powerful. If we also get SIA stacking with Bolter Discipline and the new wording/costs for the librarian discipline, I'm going to be pretty satisfied with what this update is doing for the competitiveness of DW even without getting Vanguard units.

Did I want more, yes. I still have to warsuits new in packaging waiting for the day they become available for DW. But, I feel like we're forgetting just how nasty DW's unique rules are.

Like I said upthread, -1 and transhuman on our DS aggressors, and chaplain +1 to wound stacking with our strat, will be our biggest takeaways from this by the looks of it. Doctrines will make the biggest difference to our t2 DS forces, benefitting from tactical doctrine.

But that's pretty much it, in terms of competitiveness. If you think nullzone going from 8 to 7 is gona save the Watch, think again.

 lifeafter wrote:

The stratagems and litanies are in themselves a good enough upgrade for DW to make them competetive.

No they arent. Note even close.

This is definitely when this awful "No model, no rules" thing is going to hurt...

Sterling191 wrote:

 lifeafter wrote:

The stratagems and litanies are in themselves a good enough upgrade for DW to make them competetive.

No they arent. Note even close.

Correct, this was the weakest and lamest SM preview to date. DW isn't competitive, this will not make them competitive.

 Alpharius wrote:
This is definitely when this awful "No model, no rules" thing is going to hurt...

Are you talking about the phobos libby or some such? Because the Incursors Infiltrators Invictors and Impulsors are all perfectly DW compatible right now.

 Alpharius wrote:
This is definitely when this awful "No model, no rules" thing is going to hurt...

I think that’s a poor excuse. Reivers, Infiltrators, and Incursors are all ready to go.

Eliminators have the pad sculpted on/covered by cloak? I look at my Militarum Tempestus Scions kit, and all the cables are sculpted on the power packs. What does the instruction booklet tell me to do if I want to equip a Scion with a non-hot-shot weapon that doesn’t use a cable, like plasma, melta, or grenade launcher? It tells me to clip the cable off!

Hey speaking of pariahs, someone told me that the necrons created the pariah gene in humans a long time ago. Is this still canon? How'd they do it while they were still taking their log nap?