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It's always interesting to see how words relate in another language. Today I learned that in Arabic Religion and Debt are the same word ( دين / Diin if you're wondering).

Both have their roots in the idea of belief and faith.

Friend and trust also come from the same root.

Interesting.

Good morning polyglots.
Box standard 'Murican over here. Speak English and nothing else. Would love to rectify that. Thinking Spanish or French. I'm a hammer-swinger by trade so Spanish would be nice but I have a dream of working for Doctors Without Borders one day and they run in French so I'm torn.
Two questions: Any pros/cons for the French vs Spanish argument? What's the best learning method besides move there?
Thanks!

pros/cons are basically what use you're going to get out of it.

Depending what you mean by 'hammer-swinger,' in the States you're obviously going to come across more Spanish (with some exceptions based on local populations), but if you're serious about pursuing the Sans Frontiers thing, then French is good choice.

Learning method can vary depending on how you learn. Most schools in the states don't understand that and teach poorly, but the good programs will try to force you to talk and listen in the language, which is important.

Regardless of how you learn it, continuing to practice is super important. With other people (especially early on), but regularly listening, watching and reading in the language can help keep it. Pop in a favorite movie where you know the lines and watch it in <other language>. Watch foreign broadcasts where you can pick up some context to associate the words. Do this often, and it can really help.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's always interesting to see how words relate in another language. Today I learned that in Arabic Religion and Debt are the same word ( دين / Diin if you're wondering).

Both have their roots in the idea of belief and faith.

Friend and trust also come from the same root.

Interesting.

That is both interesting and in a way logical. A friend is (usually) someone in whom you trust, which by some definitions is synonymous to faith. I need not explain the link between faith, belief, and religion, but debt means someone gave you something with the belief (or trust in your moral fiber) that you would pay them back. Okay, that last one is a bit of a stretch, but there's definitely a common thread of logic there.

Took French immersion for 12 years, and disliked every second (curse you Vandertramp!). The language itself is quite lovely though, and the sound has a bit of a "smooth" feel that's easy on the ears.
That being said, I could never get into the Quebec dialect.

Been tossing around the idea of learning one of the Iroquois languages. I don't know much about linguistics, but I heard that the etimology of a culture's language is a good starting point to learn more.

I used the application Duolingo for a while to get some basics in German and Spanish. Its both free and it uses multiple different methods to get you to learn. It sometimes feels like a game and it encourages you to do a little bit daily.

Been learning mandarin using the Hello Chinese app.

I may have misunderstood but right now I believe to say "this is nine chickens" comes out as;

Je ji ji ji ji.

(actually Zhe shi chi ji ji, but it doesn't sound like that until you get your ear in)

My pigeon German has got me through a few holidays. I can't do French as I literally can't even hear when there a consonant or vowel, it sounds terribly mumbled to me. Trying a language totally alien to Europe is a real challenge.

PourSpelur wrote:
Good morning polyglots.
Box standard 'Murican over here. Speak English and nothing else. Would love to rectify that. Thinking Spanish or French. I'm a hammer-swinger by trade so Spanish would be nice but I have a dream of working for Doctors Without Borders one day and they run in French so I'm torn.
Two questions: Any pros/cons for the French vs Spanish argument? What's the best learning method besides move there?
Thanks!

I remain adamant that the only way to make progress in a language is to have friends so if there are native speakers around it will help you more than any other resources. So I'd say Spanish because it is something spoken on the street and in the workplace in the US. A future goal can be a good motivator but being able to get lunch, talk to your buddy, or read a sign right now is a stronger motivator.

Also in all ruthlessness, the 'design' of the language matters. (Obviously no one sat down and designed any real, spoken language, they evolved over time and are changing by the year, but to a learner it feels like you're learning rules and systems). Spanish is very, very well designed. 5 vowels, used consistently, vocabulary drawing heavily from Latin, words mostly ending in Os and As to indicate gender, fewer irregular verbs than English.

I have never in my travels heard a good word about the design of French. Not once.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

PourSpelur wrote:
Good morning polyglots.
Box standard 'Murican over here. Speak English and nothing else. Would love to rectify that. Thinking Spanish or French. I'm a hammer-swinger by trade so Spanish would be nice but I have a dream of working for Doctors Without Borders one day and they run in French so I'm torn.
Two questions: Any pros/cons for the French vs Spanish argument? What's the best learning method besides move there?
Thanks!

Also in all ruthlessness, the 'design' of the language matters. (Obviously no one sat down and designed any real, spoken language, they evolved over time and are changing by the year, but to a learner it feels like you're learning rules and systems). Spanish is very, very well designed. 5 vowels, used consistently, vocabulary drawing heavily from Latin, words mostly ending in Os and As to indicate gender, fewer irregular verbs than English.

I have never in my travels heard a good word about the design of French. Not once.

Agreed on the last point about French. Only language I've ever failed to properly understand the grammar of.
Spanish is also useful in that once you speak that, Portuguese is only a (metaphorical) stone's throw away. The two languages are closer than Dutch and German.

Thanks for the replies!
Pulling the trigger on Spanish. I'm in the construction trades so it is most likely to actually get used and some practice. Elsewhere I've found some good advice of rewatching a TV series or movie you know pretty well in Spanish as a "booster" once you pick up the basics.
Any recommendations for language apps or podcasts? Obviously would love free but not adverse to spending money when the results are worth it. Do not have time for a sit-down class though.

 Henry wrote:
Been learning mandarin using the Hello Chinese app.

I may have misunderstood but right now I believe to say "this is nine chickens" comes out as;

Je ji ji ji ji.

(actually Zhe shi chi ji ji, but it doesn't sound like that until you get your ear in)

My pigeon German has got me through a few holidays. I can't do French as I literally can't even hear when there a consonant or vowel, it sounds terribly mumbled to me. Trying a language totally alien to Europe is a real challenge.

If you think "this is nine chickens" is bad in Mandarin, you should try this poem:
施氏食獅史 (Shishi shi shi shi)




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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I grew up with Russian and Dutch. Russian is a beautiful and great language

I've come to learn that 'beautiful language' usually means the grammar will make you want to spoon your eyes out. Usually requiring that adjectives and particles concur with the nouns gender, number, case and whatever other nonsense has been thrown in there

That is definitely true for Russian, since it has all of those things. Everyone I have seen trying to learn Russian has always really struggled with the case system and the verbal aspects, especially when it comes to the verbs of motion which have more aspects than regular verbs. Basically, to describe an action in Russian you have to learn multiple different verbs each with their own (sometimes irregular) conjugation and to say "I go" you must use a different verb and form depending on whether you are going on foot or by vehicle, whether you are just going or you are going and coming back, whether this is something you do regularly or just as a one-time thing etc.

The funniest thing about a native language is that you never see how ridiculously complex it is until you see others trying to learn it.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Someone once made the point that while English has a nightmarish vocabulary, with totally unrelated words drawn from completely different languages that mean the same thing or, even worse, ALMOST the same thing - horse, mare, stallion, charger, pony, filly, yearling, bronco... I'm sure there's more.

But English with its origins as a pigin language so the Anglo Saxons could talk to the Normans has a dead simple grammar at it's core. Beside despising with gendered nouns (and good riddance) and noun-adjective correspondence most tenses are accomplished by modifying words rather than rejiggering the verb itself. Except every verb is an irregular nightmare. So there's that...

Yeah, irregular verbs is one of the most difficult things about the learning of English (although Dutch and other Germanic languages are probably even worse in that regard). That, and the vocabulary. But that vocabulary is also what makes English so beautiful. Having borrowed so many words from so many different languages really gives English a unique variety in vocabulary. All languages have synonyms, but English probably has a lot more than average.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

If you think "this is nine chickens" is bad in Mandarin, you should try this poem:

Okay you just sold me the idea of "don't bother learning chinese"

Intonation is the one thing I struggle. My Japanese has horrible finnish accent. You can definitely hear that I'm from Finland if you hear me speaking japanese(or english for that matter). Seems in Chinese I would be sprouting nonsense...

That is definitely true for Russian, since it has all of those things. Everyone I have seen trying to learn Russian has always really struggled with the case system and the verbal aspects, especially when it comes to the verbs of motion which have more aspects than regular verbs.

When I was planning of starting to study language I was contemplating between russia(practical. It's our biggest neighbour) and japanese(where I had been planning to go to see those lovely mountains for almost a decade).

Japan won out because I struggled to even pronounce the russian.

The funniest thing about a native language is that you never see how ridiculously complex it is until you see others trying to learn it.

Discussions with my finnish speaking japanese friends and answering their questions certainly gave me fresh POV over on my native language. And made me realize just how nuts our grammar is.

(though maybe not the worst grammar based on this thread )

Yeah, irregular verbs is one of the most difficult things about the learning of English (although Dutch and other Germanic languages are probably even worse in that regard). That, and the vocabulary. But that vocabulary is also what makes English so beautiful. Having borrowed so many words from so many different languages really gives English a unique variety in vocabulary. All languages have synonyms, but English probably has a lot more than average.

I soooooooo hated studying those irregular verbs...Still probably make mistakes here and there. As I think already said my biggest relief is there's very few irregular verbs in japanese. Basically 2 big ones and 2 minor ones that you use regularly. For one minor one it's one specific conjugation, for other conjugation is regular as such. It just uses conjugation for X group rather than Y group).

Really the biggest issue with japanese verbs is separating between -iru and -eru ending verbs from -ru ending verbs which have different conjugation and here there's basically no other way except learn it word by word. And for fun there can be exact same pronounciation for 2 verbs that conjugate differently. For example:

変える(Change something)
帰る(return home)

Both are read as kaeru. First one is -eru verb so past tense would be kaeta while 2nd one is -ru verb(mind you these are english terms. Exact japanese term is bit different) so past tense would be kaetta.

Also on unrelated note commonly japanese studies in school starts with the more polite/formal -masu style as that's the level of talk you would generally use with new people you meet ie appropriate for tourist. However this backfires a bit when you get to certain conjugations to form more complex joined sentences at which point you basically have to unlearn that polite form and learn the basic forms for verbs first. Would be easier to learn those first but then you would be for a while talking in way that would not be all that polite if you went to japan and used japanese there. Duh. Japanese natively learn generally the basic forms as that's what you use inside home generally.

I had bit of weirdo style to start. On good side I learned the conjugation rules first but for a while struggled to make useful sentences due to lack of vocabulary. However did eventually find that helpful when it became more complex sentences than "I go to school".

I can speak English (Native), Bad English (Australian), Worse English (American), Latin, Al Bhed and a little French

I was today years old when I realized that Muslim and Islam are the same word. Just the noun Islam with the common Ma/Mu prefix for person.

And I was also today years old when I realized they were both from Salam/Shalom meaning peace.

Arabic is all about those 3 letter roots like SLM.

Some things English (and other Latin alphabet languages) have that are cool:

Capital Letters to mark proper names, SO USEFUL in picking them out of a paragraph. Note to Hindi, Arabic, Chinese and Japanese.

Spaces between words! Japanese has picked this up but Chinese has not.

Quote marks! In fact English (etc) seem to have the most punctuation marks of any alphabet I've studied. In other languages quote marks, colons etc are recent adaptions imported from Latin scripts.

Vowels! Oh so useful. Hindi and Arabic sublimate them into their consonants and add squiggles on top. And then Arabic just says @#$% it and doesn't bother to write them because either you know them already or #$%^ you, n00b. Japanese just makes every vowel-consonant combination a different letter which only works if you have a language with just 50ish syllables. Korean groups 2-3 letters into one unit per syllable. which is probably the best solution I've seen. Chinese is just LOL, what's a letter?

Italics for foreign words/phrases - This practice is dying out outside of academic writing but is so, so useful to language learners. It just highlights 'this word is even less related to the rest of the language than the rest of English'. Japanese is all just 'hey we'll just use a whole different alphabet for foreign words!' which, once you learn it, is totally awesome for English speakers. Everyone else it's just a matter of sounding out the word, realizing it's an imported word and moving on. As always Chinese is just #$%^ you. You're reading along and there's Asian History Mountain Big and you're like WTF and say it out loud five times, realize it's a foreign name and move on. Well #$%^ you too Chinese.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Capital Letters to mark proper names, SO USEFUL in picking them out of a paragraph. Note to Hindi, Arabic, Chinese and Japanese.

Haha yeah. Unless it's attached with -san/-kun/-chan/-title I often enough run into "is this new word or name" issue reading books etc. And for country where attaching title etc to the end is normal in writing without those appear surprisingly often.

Italics for foreign words/phrases - This practice is dying out outside of academic writing but is so, so useful to language learners. It just highlights 'this word is even less related to the rest of the language than the rest of English'. Japanese is all just 'hey we'll just use a whole different alphabet for foreign words!' which, once you learn it, is totally awesome for English speakers. Everyone else it's just a matter of sounding out the word, realizing it's an imported word and moving on. As always Chinese is just #$%^ you. You're reading along and there's Asian History Mountain Big and you're like WTF and say it out loud five times, realize it's a foreign name and move on. Well #$%^ you too Chinese.

I like the japanese system. Even more obvious than italics. Though sucks when they use katakana for native words as well for stylistic Sometimes I get stuck thinking "what loanword is this?"

Englis (native), French and Japanese (the first Mrs M was from Nagoya, and my daughter lives there now).

Latin - almost took Classical Archaeology in university because I was so good, but it's long since faded. Learned a bit of Mandarin and Swahili at different times when I worked in China and Kenya, but those have mostly faded too.

Computer languages - Good Lord, don't even start me there!

 Momotaro wrote:
Englis (native), French and Japanese (the first Mrs M was from Nagoya, and my daughter lives there now).

Latin - almost took Classical Archaeology in university because I was so good, but it's long since faded. Learned a bit of Mandarin and Swahili at different times when I worked in China and Kenya, but those have mostly faded too.

Computer languages - Good Lord, don't even start me there!

It's funny. You wouldn't think of a computer language as a "language" considering it involves communicating to an inanimate object. At the same time however, it does involve relaying commands using letters and numbers to convey meaning. Would it still be considered as much of a language as Latin or French?

If you'll pardon a curiosity, what computer languages are you familiar with? Rather curious to see what people are using these days.

I’d certainly say computer languages are on a par with Latin; useful for technical purposes, but not practical communication.

Huh.

Just realized the Arabic Anta/ أنت = You (Masculine, singular)

and Japanese Anta/あんた = You (contemptuous/familiar)

ARE THE SAME WORD!

Well more or less, the Arabic is closer to the Japanese Anata (You, formal/polite) but still.

Wow.


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And while we're on the subject, this made me happy.

That's pretty neat.

Another thought about vocabulary, just as some language speakers are proud of their grammar (look all my adjectives match my nouns in gender and number and case!) English speakers are all about vocabulary.

Knowing instinctively the difference between scary, terrifying and horrifying, actually caring deeply and using them correctly is the mark of fluent English speaker. Being able to compose a paragraph without repeating a noun or adjective is basically a required skill to write well in this language.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Knowing instinctively the difference between scary, terrifying and horrifying, actually caring deeply and using them correctly is the mark of fluent English speaker. Being able to compose a paragraph without repeating a noun or adjective is basically a required skill to write well in this language.

I would put forward the idea that this stems from the roots in other languages. . . For instance, in German, "Ich Will" is 'I want', however that is not the precise/correct term to use say, at a restaurant ordering a beer. There, you would use "Ich möchte" instead.

I mean, even in English, we don't have a word as gloriously precise as "schadenfreude"
"

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:


I mean, even in English, we don't have a word as gloriously precise as "schadenfreude"
"

We do now

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/schadenfreude


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That being said yeah there are some things in other languages that clear up ambiguity we have in English.

Japanese and the Romance Languages offer a menu of words for 'you' meaning my friend, my lover, random dude I'm talking to, and you little piece of @#$%.

Japanese has 3 ands, this and that and nothing else, this and that and maybe some more stuff, this entire sentence and that entire sentence.

To say nothing of English's big mess of meanings for the words 'have' 'get' and 'that'.

And English really needs one words for and/or, that bugs me and I've not seen any language that has one.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

I would put forward the idea that this stems from the roots in other languages. . . For instance, in German, "Ich Will" is 'I want', however that is not the precise/correct term to use say, at a restaurant ordering a beer. There, you would use "Ich möchte" instead.

I mean, even in English, we don't have a word as gloriously precise as "schadenfreude"
"

But then, in English the polite way to order in a restaurant is to say "I would like" or "can I have", not "I want" as well, so actually the same. Which makes some sense as both are Germanic languages.

Im at an extremely weird place with languages myself.

Im only fluent in English (American), but I can recognize and identify at least 20 other languages if I hear them being spoken.

I for some ungodly reason can pick up other dialects easily and even some words but can never actually remember enough off the top of my head to speak it.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Another thought about vocabulary, just as some language speakers are proud of their grammar (look all my adjectives match my nouns in gender and number and case!) English speakers are all about vocabulary.

Knowing instinctively the difference between scary, terrifying and horrifying, actually caring deeply and using them correctly is the mark of fluent English speaker. Being able to compose a paragraph without repeating a noun or adjective is basically a required skill to write well in this language.

Uhhuh. Don't remind me. One reason I botched JLPT N1 was because of those. Lots of different word meaning basically same but one is used in certain situation and other in another. Bloody business japanese


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 Eihnlazer wrote:
Im at an extremely weird place with languages myself.

Im only fluent in English (American), but I can recognize and identify at least 20 other languages if I hear them being spoken.

I for some ungodly reason can pick up other dialects easily and even some words but can never actually remember enough off the top of my head to speak it.

That's pretty impressive. I can recognize german, france, italy, spanish, korean, chinese speakers fairly well by ear. But nowhere near 20!

I foudn the works of J R R Tolkien very useful for language studies, in part, because it was well translated, in part, because the lord of the rings is a longer book and consistant vocabulary wise, but in part because I knew the story and characters so I could piece any lost or missing word .. and its context .. together.

It took a while to read in non-native language -- but once complete, let me move quickly into a lot of other books with a fluid comprehension I hadn't had at the start.

One of my classmates picked up Harry Potter in Arabic for the same reason, good idea.

Another thought, the English language uses the same word for a person, a language and an adjective when related to a country.

Japanese speak Japanese at a Japanese restaurant.

English is the language of the English and former English colonies.

And so on.

Japanese and Chinese just use the suffix Kingdom or Person to differentiate which sense you're using the word. A much more civilized system.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
I foudn the works of J R R Tolkien very useful for language studies, in part, because it was well translated, in part, because the lord of the rings is a longer book and consistant vocabulary wise, but in part because I knew the story and characters so I could piece any lost or missing word .. and its context .. together.

It took a while to read in non-native language -- but once complete, let me move quickly into a lot of other books with a fluid comprehension I hadn't had at the start.

Heh I have Return of the King and Prisoner of Azkaban in Japanese. Got curious on last trip how they are translated so went and bought. HP was easy. LOTR required me to ask staff at bookoff to help find and they only had return of the king :( Would have preferred two towers myself.