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I use a 20 man blob in my red corsairs warband, but wouldnt dare with any other sub faction. As others have touched on, 5 man MSU's are a way to make them work. The other is Red Corsairs...which is very limiting in your factional choice. If your not opposed to multi legion lists...doing one detachment of RC is going to net you a nice CP boost.

I have heard of a BL gunline list here on Dakka that does fairly well. Sadly I forget the name of the poster who uses them.

The reality is (and you dont get this on Dakka much) that more games take place in a casual setting than a cutthroat internet list meta tournament. And in this common setting CSM are not nearly as bad as a lot of people on dakka parrot.

I feel that the meta chasers will not be happy until marines of both ilks are 8PPM. Which I think will never happen and is to low. To sum things up, a 20 man fat RC blob on a objective is difficult to deal with because even if you shift it, its coming back at full strength. Just keep it cheap. The real problem with RC horde marines is no transport option outside of Forge World.

You'd have a point if they were good for even casual gaming.

I'm sure someone is going to disagree with me, but in a vacuum CSM are fine. 11ppm is a sweet spot for their rules and Stallone and they can at least anchor objectives in cover reasonably well without needing extra support.

The problem is the rules that support those 11ppm bodies are so lackluster that it becomes a real problem to make them work against the modern Marine meta. Loyalists just stack too many variable buffs in for free while we barely see anything to support our forces.

Just off the top of my head CSM need something like "Suffer Not the Weak to Live" where they ignore casualties for morale checks and a horde discount to make 20 man squads attractive.

10 model squads are the largest I'd run, amd probably the only time the Word Bearer's refill for morale -might- work well if you're wanting them for a Possessed Bomb support.

I feel like we need Marks to go back to giving bonuses to the units that take them. +1S for Khorne, +1"M for Slaanesh, +1 T for Nurgle, 6++ for Tzeentch (or +1 if you have an invul), and give +1 attack for undivided. Make us pick alignments for our Daemon Engines too.

Speaking of which, Undivided really needs to be available army wide for fluff if nothing else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course, that's not getting into completely fixing Legion Tactics which should have been touched up in PA. At least to open them up army wide and to give us more benefits.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm sure someone is going to disagree with me, but in a vacuum CSM are fine. 11ppm is a sweet spot for their rules and Stallone and they can at least anchor objectives in cover reasonably well without needing extra support.

The problem is the rules that support those 11ppm bodies are so lackluster that it becomes a real problem to make them work against the modern Marine meta. Loyalists just stack too many variable buffs in for free while we barely see anything to support our forces.

Just off the top of my head CSM need something like "Suffer Not the Weak to Live" where they ignore casualties for morale checks and a horde discount to make 20 man squads attractive.

10 model squads are the largest I'd run, amd probably the only time the Word Bearer's refill for morale -might- work well if you're wanting them for a Possessed Bomb support.

I feel like we need Marks to go back to giving bonuses to the units that take them. +1S for Khorne, +1"M for Slaanesh, +1 T for Nurgle, 6++ for Tzeentch (or +1 if you have an invul), and give +1 attack for undivided. Make us pick alignments for our Daemon Engines too.

Speaking of which, Undivided really needs to be available army wide for fluff if nothing else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course, that's not getting into completely fixing Legion Tactics which should have been touched up in PA. At least to open them up army wide and to give us more benefits.

They're bad compared to anyone else's troops in that vacuum too. Have you seen the basic Battle Sister? Skitarii? Dire Avenger squad? It's silly how little Chaos Marines actually DO.

Sisters cost 9 points and lose S, T, WS for that cost. They also don't get attacks for charging or bonus bolter shots.

CSM lose out in 8th for two reasons: CP generation and no AP on their base weapons.

With enough weight of duce they can make up for the latter, but since CP is tied to filling slots CSM to feed singular bomb unjts most just don't find enough innate buffs in CSM to offset the lack of CP for taking them in large numbers, if at all.

Which is one of the many reasons we need an actual new codex. Csm have rules for older editions that just aren't relevant in the current game.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Which is one of the many reasons we need an actual new codex. Csm have rules for older editions that just aren't relevant in the current game.

I don't disagree. I even mentioned a few things I think would help them.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Sisters cost 9 points and lose S, T, WS for that cost. They also don't get attacks for charging or bonus bolter shots.

CSM lose out in 8th for two reasons: CP generation and no AP on their base weapons.

With enough weight of duce they can make up for the latter, but since CP is tied to filling slots CSM to feed singular bomb unjts most just don't find enough innate buffs in CSM to offset the lack of CP for taking them in large numbers, if at all.

They also get a 6++ which is less useless than DttFE and greater Chapter Tactic equivalents.
Also LOL they don't get "bonus shots". They get ONE extra shot if they're stationary for anything outside 12.1". Bolter Drill was the dumbest idea GW could be used to fix power armor because it ultimately helped other units WAY more.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Which is one of the many reasons we need an actual new codex. Csm have rules for older editions that just aren't relevant in the current game.

I don't disagree. I even mentioned a few things I think would help them.

Yeah, my comment was aimed at Slayer-Fan, you just typed faster than me.

But on your ideas, I think csm should return to having greater leadership than loyalists instead of having our own atsknf, it just feels more right. And as a Night Lords player I definitely like the idea of making being undivided meaningful.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Sisters cost 9 points and lose S, T, WS for that cost. They also don't get attacks for charging or bonus bolter shots.

CSM lose out in 8th for two reasons: CP generation and no AP on their base weapons.

With enough weight of duce they can make up for the latter, but since CP is tied to filling slots CSM to feed singular bomb unjts most just don't find enough innate buffs in CSM to offset the lack of CP for taking them in large numbers, if at all.

They also get a 6++ which is less useless than DttFE and greater Chapter Tactic equivalents.
Also LOL they don't get "bonus shots". They get ONE extra shot if they're stationary for anything outside 12.1". Bolter Drill was the dumbest idea GW could be used to fix power armor because it ultimately helped other units WAY more.

Two extra shots if they have a combo-bolter but the point stands: they can shoot more than Sisters over the course of a game.

And I wasn't counting the traits because that takes the units out of a vacuum. And even then people seem to think the Argent Shroud trait is the only food one meaning it's not universal that all of their traits are good.

CSM aren't bad. The problem is they have nothing they're great at either.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Sisters cost 9 points and lose S, T, WS for that cost. They also don't get attacks for charging or bonus bolter shots.

CSM lose out in 8th for two reasons: CP generation and no AP on their base weapons.

With enough weight of duce they can make up for the latter, but since CP is tied to filling slots CSM to feed singular bomb unjts most just don't find enough innate buffs in CSM to offset the lack of CP for taking them in large numbers, if at all.

They also get a 6++ which is less useless than DttFE and greater Chapter Tactic equivalents.
Also LOL they don't get "bonus shots". They get ONE extra shot if they're stationary for anything outside 12.1". Bolter Drill was the dumbest idea GW could be used to fix power armor because it ultimately helped other units WAY more.

Two extra shots if they have a combo-bolter but the point stands: they can shoot more than Sisters over the course of a game.

And I wasn't counting the traits because that takes the units out of a vacuum. And even then people seem to think the Argent Shroud trait is the only food one meaning it's not universal that all of their traits are good.

CSM aren't bad. The problem is they have nothing they're great at either.

What? Argent Shroud is good, but it's usually Bloody Rose or Valorous Heart that get talked about.

Sorry, you're right, VH was the one I meant. Bloody Rose is second fiddle, and only for the Repentia Bomb they bring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I thought about it on my way home from work today and I feel that CSM likely got all the rules and options GW had ready to go for their next book -right now- and basically nothing else.

CSM as a faction needs more love and it's possible that anything not deemed "finished" was left out, even if it was part of an obvious change.

That said, I sincerely hope we see bonuses for Marks return. It was one of the few ways CSM felt different from Vanilla Marines and it'd be nice to have it back again.

Basic csm troops are pure function, and that's fine.

The focus on specialists to do your killing kinda has old school chaos vibes, and brings a lot more variation to csm lists in general. Marks would be nice, but they'd probably give half of them terrible fluffy rules like they always do. The icons can be nice, but again gw can't balance multigod well-looking at you icon of flame.

 WinterLantern wrote:
Basic csm troops are pure function, and that's fine.

The focus on specialists to do your killing kinda has old school chaos vibes, and brings a lot more variation to csm lists in general. Marks would be nice, but they'd probably give half of them terrible fluffy rules like they always do. The icons can be nice, but again gw can't balance multigod well-looking at you icon of flame.

True, but they were also one of the only things we had access to that made the CSM feel less vanilla, good or not. Now we feel less vanilla because vanilla is covered with sprinkles and we don't even get a spoon.

A lot of the points I am seeing here lead me to the conclusion that if you are someone like me, who wants to use CSM to fill out a battalion, take them in five man squads with bolters, maybe give the champ a combi bolter and chainsword, and fill the rest of my list with killy choices, such as havocs, possessed, etc. I wasn't really planning on making them the focus of the list in the first place, but this feedback reinforces that thought. I might go something other then word bearers though, night Lord's are an attractive choice, as are iron warriors.

Sounds about right to be honest. The only good thing about them vs culists is that due to the better save and toughness you don't need to babysit them like you do Cultists. So a Dark Apostle can be off buffing your Possessed or something else instead.

 Dorns_Arrow96 wrote:
A lot of the points I am seeing here lead me to the conclusion that if you are someone like me, who wants to use CSM to fill out a battalion, take them in five man squads with bolters, maybe give the champ a combi bolter and chainsword, and fill the rest of my list with killy choices, such as havocs, possessed, etc. I wasn't really planning on making them the focus of the list in the first place, but this feedback reinforces that thought. I might go something other then word bearers though, night Lord's are an attractive choice, as are iron warriors.

Word Bearers are my favorite Legion, I love mine to death and there are ways to play them but...They are an awful Legion with terrible traits, artifacts and most of their abilities tie into demon summoning which in its current form is rather awful.

If you are dead set on Word Bearers get used to Possessed bombs cause that is the only way to run them, with that said Alpha Legion do it a hell of a lot better.

What was the reason you wanted to go Word Bearers in the first place? Just curious.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Dorns_Arrow96 wrote:
A lot of the points I am seeing here lead me to the conclusion that if you are someone like me, who wants to use CSM to fill out a battalion, take them in five man squads with bolters, maybe give the champ a combi bolter and chainsword, and fill the rest of my list with killy choices, such as havocs, possessed, etc. I wasn't really planning on making them the focus of the list in the first place, but this feedback reinforces that thought. I might go something other then word bearers though, night Lord's are an attractive choice, as are iron warriors.

Word Bearers are my favorite Legion, I love mine to death and there are ways to play them but...They are an awful Legion with terrible traits, artifacts and most of their abilities tie into demon summoning which in its current form is rather awful.

If you are dead set on Word Bearers get used to Possessed bombs cause that is the only way to run them, with that said Alpha Legion do it a hell of a lot better.

What was the reason you wanted to go Word Bearers in the first place? Just curious.

I feel like Faith and Fury gave them some tools, but I have been struggling with the army myself. Possessed Bomb is about the only pure way to go, but they do pair well in a mixed Chaos list or so I've been told.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Sorry, you're right, VH was the one I meant. Bloody Rose is second fiddle, and only for the Repentia Bomb they bring.

I'd take that 117pt bloody rose repentia bomb over equal points of berzerkers.

I'd take a 9 point sister in CSM over the 11 point marine. Mostly because they are about as survivable and about as shooty but less points.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Sorry, you're right, VH was the one I meant. Bloody Rose is second fiddle, and only for the Repentia Bomb they bring.

I'd take that 117pt bloody rose repentia bomb over equal points of berzerkers.

I'd take a 9 point sister in CSM over the 11 point marine. Mostly because they are about as survivable and about as shooty but less points.

When you factor all the buffs you can throw on them, sure. Repentia having Eviscerators definitely makes them more attractive than Berserkers, even with the AP of a chainaxes, not going to lie.

So I think I know what the problem with CSM is: they don't feel right. In the story they've become such a threat that only by adopting the Primaris upgrade can the Imperium reach a stalemate but on the table they don't even punch at the same weight as Oldstartes.

Basically the ability to take statline upgrades or even a chainsword on the standard CSM went a long way towards making them feel like they hit harder than they usually did in past editions and the current edition just doesn't have the same weight to it for the faction.

Basically a ludo narrative dissonance.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Dorns_Arrow96 wrote:
A lot of the points I am seeing here lead me to the conclusion that if you are someone like me, who wants to use CSM to fill out a battalion, take them in five man squads with bolters, maybe give the champ a combi bolter and chainsword, and fill the rest of my list with killy choices, such as havocs, possessed, etc. I wasn't really planning on making them the focus of the list in the first place, but this feedback reinforces that thought. I might go something other then word bearers though, night Lord's are an attractive choice, as are iron warriors.

Word Bearers are my favorite Legion, I love mine to death and there are ways to play them but...They are an awful Legion with terrible traits, artifacts and most of their abilities tie into demon summoning which in its current form is rather awful.

If you are dead set on Word Bearers get used to Possessed bombs cause that is the only way to run them, with that said Alpha Legion do it a hell of a lot better.

What was the reason you wanted to go Word Bearers in the first place? Just curious.

Mainly because they are my favourite legion fluff wise. I don't play competitively, just at my local store, maybe the odd friendly tournament as well. Just wanted opinions on whether they can be made decent, CSM that is

Fluffy play is very possible, and they can do some decent things to make Possessed hit like a truck, but they are mid-table army at best in competetive with how Word Bearers currently function. Summoning buffs are largely meaningless with the current way the game works, and leadership mechanics aren't enough to get people to take larger units instead of taking CP.

Something needs to be done to get CSM to hit at the same level as Primaris. Not by making them into Primaris, but by giving buffs to the army that help them punch at a heavier weight.

I was thinking, since Sisters came up, that Chaos Boons should work like the Rites: roll 2 or pick one and give the result to -all- units with the Heretic Astartes keyword. Give us a strat that lets us roll 3 dice and pick the two results for a CP and a warlord trait that lets the warlord to choose an additional result for themselves and we open up some interesting play. Especially if doubles stack.

Obviously get rid of the spawn and Daemon prince results and change the 7 result. Additionally we could use a strat that when a non-Daemon Prince Warlord is slain roll a D6 and on a 4+ replace them with Daemon Prince, otherwise replace them with a Chaos Spawn. Charge 2CP and don't allow rerolls.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Fluffy play is very possible, and they can do some decent things to make Possessed hit like a truck, but they are mid-table army at best in competetive with how Word Bearers currently function. Summoning buffs are largely meaningless with the current way the game works, and leadership mechanics aren't enough to get people to take larger units instead of taking CP.

Something needs to be done to get CSM to hit at the same level as Primaris. Not by making them into Primaris, but by giving buffs to the army that help them punch at a heavier weight.

I was thinking, since Sisters came up, that Chaos Boons should work like the Rites: roll 2 or pick one and give the result to -all- units with the Heretic Astartes keyword. Give us a strat that lets us roll 3 dice and pick the two results for a CP and a warlord trait that lets the warlord to choose an additional result for themselves and we open up some interesting play. Especially if doubles stack.

Obviously get rid of the spawn and Daemon prince results and change the 7 result. Additionally we could use a strat that when a non-Daemon Prince Warlord is slain roll a D6 and on a 4+ replace them with Daemon Prince, otherwise replace them with a Chaos Spawn. Charge 2CP and don't allow rerolls.

No, some legions don't worship chaos. So no boons. Seeing as csm are currently cheaper than tacticals, just like in 3rd, I think it's the perfect opportunity to bring back veteran abilities and meaningful marks for which are paid for with points. That way they can be either cheap mooks or more expensive, stronger troops.

Combi bolters should also be an option for the whole squad, so less range but more shots than primaris. Give back chainswords as standard equipment. Csm should be nasty in close, loyalists better at a distance.

 Dorns_Arrow96 wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Dorns_Arrow96 wrote:
A lot of the points I am seeing here lead me to the conclusion that if you are someone like me, who wants to use CSM to fill out a battalion, take them in five man squads with bolters, maybe give the champ a combi bolter and chainsword, and fill the rest of my list with killy choices, such as havocs, possessed, etc. I wasn't really planning on making them the focus of the list in the first place, but this feedback reinforces that thought. I might go something other then word bearers though, night Lord's are an attractive choice, as are iron warriors.

Word Bearers are my favorite Legion, I love mine to death and there are ways to play them but...They are an awful Legion with terrible traits, artifacts and most of their abilities tie into demon summoning which in its current form is rather awful.

If you are dead set on Word Bearers get used to Possessed bombs cause that is the only way to run them, with that said Alpha Legion do it a hell of a lot better.

What was the reason you wanted to go Word Bearers in the first place? Just curious.

Mainly because they are my favourite legion fluff wise. I don't play competitively, just at my local store, maybe the odd friendly tournament as well. Just wanted opinions on whether they can be made decent, CSM that is

Look at the Vigilus Ablaze formation that pumps up your Possessed, Faith and Fury added so very little to Word Bearers that I would ignore it unless you are dead set on playing Word Bearers than go ahead and utilize what they have. The problem with Faith and Fury is that anything that Word Bearers got pales in comparison to what the other Legions have.

I play at a strictly casual level, never play tournaments but keep up to date on the meta, and I have to say that even at a casual level there is little to no reason to play Word Bearers. Possessed are going to be a strong focus for you as well as Daemon Engines if you build in that direction but at the end of the day very few armies are going to have a hard time eliminating T4 2W 3+ before they can reach their targets. I run 2x 20 man Possessed squads backed by a Sorcerer, Apostle and a Daemon Prince and it is not uncommon to have one squad taken off the table before I can get a charge in and the second one at half strength before they get a charge.

Then again my usual opponent is a rather competitive Guard player. Russes double shooting is just disgusting when you are looking at 4 regular and 2 tank commanders.

While whole legions may not worship Chaos, many splinter groups still do. And even then they're a minority. Rules shouldn't cater to minorities among whole factions.

If anything those groups should have anpart of their legion trait to not roll for a Boon and give them a different bonus to represent their legion traits. Like giving Iron Warriors a 6+++ to represent their heavy augmentarion.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Sorry, you're right, VH was the one I meant. Bloody Rose is second fiddle, and only for the Repentia Bomb they bring.

I'd take that 117pt bloody rose repentia bomb over equal points of berzerkers.

I'd take a 9 point sister in CSM over the 11 point marine. Mostly because they are about as survivable and about as shooty but less points.

When you factor all the buffs you can throw on them, sure. Repentia having Eviscerators definitely makes them more attractive than Berserkers, even with the AP of a chainaxes, not going to lie.

So I think I know what the problem with CSM is: they don't feel right. In the story they've become such a threat that only by adopting the Primaris upgrade can the Imperium reach a stalemate but on the table they don't even punch at the same weight as Oldstartes.

Basically the ability to take statline upgrades or even a chainsword on the standard CSM went a long way towards making them feel like they hit harder than they usually did in past editions and the current edition just doesn't have the same weight to it for the faction.

Basically a ludo narrative dissonance.

You know what would help Berserker Marines? Let them take Eviscerstors! How much anti-infantry melee do you really need in a squad with that many attacks?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Fluffy play is very possible, and they can do some decent things to make Possessed hit like a truck, but they are mid-table army at best in competetive with how Word Bearers currently function. Summoning buffs are largely meaningless with the current way the game works, and leadership mechanics aren't enough to get people to take larger units instead of taking CP.

Something needs to be done to get CSM to hit at the same level as Primaris. Not by making them into Primaris, but by giving buffs to the army that help them punch at a heavier weight.

I was thinking, since Sisters came up, that Chaos Boons should work like the Rites: roll 2 or pick one and give the result to -all- units with the Heretic Astartes keyword. Give us a strat that lets us roll 3 dice and pick the two results for a CP and a warlord trait that lets the warlord to choose an additional result for themselves and we open up some interesting play. Especially if doubles stack.

Obviously get rid of the spawn and Daemon prince results and change the 7 result. Additionally we could use a strat that when a non-Daemon Prince Warlord is slain roll a D6 and on a 4+ replace them with Daemon Prince, otherwise replace them with a Chaos Spawn. Charge 2CP and don't allow rerolls.

No, some legions don't worship chaos. So no boons. Seeing as csm are currently cheaper than tacticals, just like in 3rd, I think it's the perfect opportunity to bring back veteran abilities and meaningful marks for which are paid for with points. That way they can be either cheap mooks or more expensive, stronger troops.

Combi bolters should also be an option for the whole squad, so less range but more shots than primaris. Give back chainswords as standard equipment. Csm should be nasty in close, loyalists better at a distance.

^Agreed on everything except for the combi-bolters thing. But Chosen should be able to all take combi-weapons in the same way that Sternguard can. I'd be inclined to give CSM the option of one heavy/special for every 4-5 models, instead of the hard limit of two that's on them now.

Nah. Just let Zerkers have a FnP so they can shrug off more wounds on the way into combat.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
While whole legions may not worship Chaos, many splinter groups still do. And even then they're a minority. Rules shouldn't cater to minorities among whole factions.

If anything those groups should have anpart of their legion trait to not roll for a Boon and give them a different bonus to represent their legion traits. Like giving Iron Warriors a 6+++ to represent their heavy augmentarion.

Three out of the the seven legions in the codex are a big minority. And you could still represent chaos worship if you wished through more impactful marks. Csm 3.5 2.0 is what we need. Csm should have lots of options to represent the fact that they're not a standardized force.

@Insectum7, yeah I figured you'd be on the same page.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Nah. Just let Zerkers have a FnP so they can shrug off more wounds on the way into combat.

That really doesn't help them much because a 6+++ is already meh, but swinging 6 S8 D2 hits would be a LOT more impactful.