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Kayback wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

I'm not, I'd hate W2 orks. I'm all in favor to reduce rate of fire and killyness (AKA reduce dice rolling), not to make things tougher or playing with lesser but stronger models.

Lesser but stronger models is meant to be SM in a nutshell.

There is an obvious tradeoff between model point and model price, like someone said it's not fair if I need to shell out $500 on my army to counter $100 of yours, but is it fair to charge $25 per miniatures when others are $0.75?

Hey bud, do you have a GW kit where models cost $0.75? Because I'm looking at my stuff, and it doesn't seem like there's any correlation between game points and dollar price. Instead it seems more like more recent kits just cost more.

Primaris Marines - 60$/10, 20ppm
Sisters of Battle - 60$/10, 9ppm
Neophyte Hybrids - 44$/10, 4ppm

Seems like a bad correlation if we're being honest. 3.33 points per buck for space marines, 0.9 points per buck for GSC. And that's "ala carte" option for space marines, if I don't feel like getting my dudes from starter boxes where I can easily get way way more points of marines for cheaper by buying starter boxes and SC sets. For example, I can get 10 intercessors, 3 aggressors and a captain from SC space wolves for $95 or 10 infiltrators, 3 eliminators, 3 suppressors and a lieutenant from SC vanguard marines for $95.

the_scotsman wrote:

Hey bud, do you have a GW kit where models cost $0.75? Because I'm looking at my stuff, and it doesn't seem like there's any correlation between game points and dollar price. Instead it seems more like more recent kits just cost more.

Primaris Marines - 60$/10, 20ppm
Sisters of Battle - 60$/10, 9ppm
Neophyte Hybrids - 44$/10, 4ppm

Seems like a bad correlation if we're being honest. 3.33 points per buck for space marines, 0.9 points per buck for GSC. And that's "ala carte" option for space marines, if I don't feel like getting my dudes from starter boxes where I can easily get way way more points of marines for cheaper by buying starter boxes and SC sets. For example, I can get 10 intercessors, 3 aggressors and a captain from SC space wolves for $95 or 10 infiltrators, 3 eliminators, 3 suppressors and a lieutenant from SC vanguard marines for $95.

That was sorta the point I was trying to make, I obviously did it badly.

There is a consideration to be made for real world cost and in game terms cost of a unit. It shouldn't be pay-to-play but neither should it be an army of half the real world $ value beating another one. If my SM army has more points per buck then I'll get to an army points total for less outlay than a GSC will.

Kayback wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Hey bud, do you have a GW kit where models cost $0.75? Because I'm looking at my stuff, and it doesn't seem like there's any correlation between game points and dollar price. Instead it seems more like more recent kits just cost more.

Primaris Marines - 60$/10, 20ppm
Sisters of Battle - 60$/10, 9ppm
Neophyte Hybrids - 44$/10, 4ppm

Seems like a bad correlation if we're being honest. 3.33 points per buck for space marines, 0.9 points per buck for GSC. And that's "ala carte" option for space marines, if I don't feel like getting my dudes from starter boxes where I can easily get way way more points of marines for cheaper by buying starter boxes and SC sets. For example, I can get 10 intercessors, 3 aggressors and a captain from SC space wolves for $95 or 10 infiltrators, 3 eliminators, 3 suppressors and a lieutenant from SC vanguard marines for $95.

That was sorta the point I was trying to make, I obviously did it badly.

There is a consideration to be made for real world cost and in game terms cost of a unit. It shouldn't be pay-to-play but neither should it be an army of half the real world $ value beating another one. If my SM army has more points per buck then I'll get to an army points total for less outlay than a GSC will.

I mean obviously there is some level of reasonableness. People want to play armies with more models - heck, I sure do - and understand you pay by the plastic. But the way this edition has shaken out, GW's solution to 8th ed's ludicrous firepower was basically "people who like every army except marines/knights/custodes, I'm afraid you're going to just have to buy wayyyyyyyyy more models my dudes". We ended up with Kabalites at 6, Guardians at like 7, daemons at 6, nid gribbles at 5, GSC at 5, guardsmen at 4, because everything just dies to one shooting attack. The stat difference between a gretchin and a guardsman is like the stat difference between a sister and an intercessor, but because everything below a certain threshold just fething dies when you look at it, it doesn't matter at all.

I really hope the new balancing point at the release of 9th works. I would LOVE a functional, reasonably balanced game where Cultists are worth it at 6ppm. people are saying that has horrible implications but I think it has the best implications of any piece of info so far, as long as it actually works at that value.

the_scotsman wrote:

Kayback wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

I'm not, I'd hate W2 orks. I'm all in favor to reduce rate of fire and killyness (AKA reduce dice rolling), not to make things tougher or playing with lesser but stronger models.

Lesser but stronger models is meant to be SM in a nutshell.

There is an obvious tradeoff between model point and model price, like someone said it's not fair if I need to shell out $500 on my army to counter $100 of yours, but is it fair to charge $25 per miniatures when others are $0.75?

Hey bud, do you have a GW kit where models cost $0.75? Because I'm looking at my stuff, and it doesn't seem like there's any correlation between game points and dollar price. Instead it seems more like more recent kits just cost more.

Primaris Marines - 60$/10, 20ppm
Sisters of Battle - 60$/10, 9ppm
Neophyte Hybrids - 44$/10, 4ppm

Seems like a bad correlation if we're being honest. 3.33 points per buck for space marines, 0.9 points per buck for GSC. And that's "ala carte" option for space marines, if I don't feel like getting my dudes from starter boxes where I can easily get way way more points of marines for cheaper by buying starter boxes and SC sets. For example, I can get 10 intercessors, 3 aggressors and a captain from SC space wolves for $95 or 10 infiltrators, 3 eliminators, 3 suppressors and a lieutenant from SC vanguard marines for $95.

We already know GSC are one of the worst armies when it comes to money per model. Take that to GW though and don't buy the models though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Negative, an Ork boy can - under the right circumstances have seven attacks per model. It requires Gaz, a spell, taking the Goff trait....and I think a banner? But they're not exaggerating. Seven attacks is actually possible (technically it's 6 attacks, generating additional hits on rolls of '6' which mathematically gives you the seventh).

A 10 man squad has only 3 attacks base though, it can reach 5 attacks thanks to Warpath (by Weirdboy) and Ghaz aura. If the unit is 20+ they gain another attack. Exploding 6s are possible only if the unit is Goff, which are quite inferior to another clan that buffs melee which is Evil Sunz; in fact Goffs are hands down one of the weakest clans and no one takes it, especially now that Ghaz is available for all clans. So it's a max of 6-7 attack per model BUT we're talking about a 140+ points units with t-shirt save dudes and another additional 347 points of characters. A 500+ points combo for a super fragile melee unit. A unit of boyz that unleash overkill is possible, like is possible to see a Land Raider getting killed by guardsmen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Also for the record I'm kinda in favor of Orks getting W2 in their profile.

I'm not, I'd hate W2 orks. I'm all in favor to reduce rate of fire and killyness (AKA reduce dice rolling), not to make things tougher or playing with lesser but stronger models.

Then you clearly don't have an open mind. How do W2 Orks break the game? I haven't seen Nobz be broken whatsoever and they're really not much more expensive!

W2 orks is fine if points adjustments are correct.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Then you clearly don't have an open mind. How do W2 Orks break the game? I haven't seen Nobz be broken whatsoever and they're really not much more expensive!

A nob is literally 2x the points cost of a boy. And you have to pay more overcosted points to give him better weapons than the boy.

An intercessor is 1.41 tac Marines in points. And has more quality improvements in stats and equipment included in that cost

2w or not, Primaris Marines are hilariously undercosted across the board.

They were overcosted before. By a lot. Even a present points, they are still really glass cannons.

Martel732 wrote:
They were overcosted before. By a lot. Even a present points, they are still really glass cannons.

don't confuse the terms "elite" and "durable." Nurglings are pretty durable, but they're hardly elite.

I didn't use those terms. I used "glass cannon". Which they are.

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't use those terms. I used "glass cannon". Which they are.

Well, glass cannon means "not durable." You seemed to imply it was bad that they were glass cannons, meanwhile over in "every-other-army-land" their cannons are even glassier.

Would you believe there are models that are 2 wounds with only a 5++ save and about the same price as an intercessor with no gun?

Hankovitch wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Then you clearly don't have an open mind. How do W2 Orks break the game? I haven't seen Nobz be broken whatsoever and they're really not much more expensive!

A nob is literally 2x the points cost of a boy. And you have to pay more overcosted points to give him better weapons than the boy.

An intercessor is 1.41 tac Marines in points. And has more quality improvements in stats and equipment included in that cost

2w or not, Primaris Marines are hilariously undercosted across the board.

A boy with W2 at 8-9 points would not break the game and seeing as Nobz are BAD you prove my point.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't use those terms. I used "glass cannon". Which they are.

Well, glass cannon means "not durable." You seemed to imply it was bad that they were glass cannons, meanwhile over in "every-other-army-land" their cannons are even glassier.

Would you believe there are models that are 2 wounds with only a 5++ save and about the same price as an intercessor with no gun?

I consider it a borderline disaster that they are glass cannons. Models existing that are worse doesn't really change my assessment.

I told you guys the marine hate was real. The second marines become competitive in any way the complaining is incessant.

That was really just Ironhands and Ravengaurd abusing busted "stratagems" and warlord traits and having nothing to do with a primaris marine having 2W. LOL. Ork boys have literally been the cog in several successful tournament builds.

I've been playing primaris marines all eddition - including when marines were bottom tier. A 17 point intercessor without doctrines was overcosted by about 2 points (they started at 20 points in the index). It is worth it with doctrines now. I mean - they are worth their points now FINALLY. What that means is - my 174 point intercessor squad (yeah...thats enough points for a top teir unit in just about any army.) Does not lost me the game. It's also not going to roll over and die like the chaf units boys normally roll over. Cause MARINES ARE NOT A CHAFF UNIT. BOYS ARE.

Marines are in the same category as an army like custodians. NOTHING in the army is chaff. A custodian has 3 W...why does no one complain about custodians have a "basic infantry" with 3 W and a 2+ save and power weapons with d3 damage? Yeah...never seen anyone complain about that once. Cause no one is in dispute...A custodian deserves to be hard to kill. A marine made even more big and bad by primaris geenseed having 2 wounds though? Travesty!

A freaking wrak in prophets of the flesh is literally bouncing Plasmaguns with Skin...that flesh is so tough dude...shoulda left the power armor at home.

I mean I hate marines at this point, but for very different reasons.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I told you guys the marine hate was real. The second marines become competitive in any way the complaining is incessant.

I've been an Ultramarine player since the early 90's. It eventually just becomes part of the background noise.

So marines are fine I guess as long as they are Eldar target dummies.

Martel732 wrote:
So marines are fine I guess as long as they are Eldar target dummies.

Nothing worse than Eldar apologists

 Xenomancers wrote:


Marines are in the same category as an army like custodians. NOTHING in the army is chaff. A custodian has 3 W...why does no one complain about custodians have a "basic infantry" with 3 W and a 2+ save and power weapons with d3 damage? Yeah...never seen anyone complain about that once. Cause no one is in dispute...A custodian deserves to be hard to kill. A marine made even more big and bad by primaris geenseed having 2 wounds though? Travesty!

1) Nobody complains about custodes because they're super expensive. If intercessors cost 30 points each and came in max squad sizes of 5 I don't think anyone would complain about them either, other than for the fact that they break the game lore completely in a transparent attempt to resell SM players their entire armies.

2) This is not historically true. For 30+ years, space marines were 1W infantry with one point higher toughness and a better save than normal humans. Better, but not radically so. Then 8th came along.

I could have just as easily said Tau target dummies. I'll just remember the starcannon putting an end to the glory days of 3rd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


Marines are in the same category as an army like custodians. NOTHING in the army is chaff. A custodian has 3 W...why does no one complain about custodians have a "basic infantry" with 3 W and a 2+ save and power weapons with d3 damage? Yeah...never seen anyone complain about that once. Cause no one is in dispute...A custodian deserves to be hard to kill. A marine made even more big and bad by primaris geenseed having 2 wounds though? Travesty!

1) Nobody complains about custodes because they're super expensive. If intercessors cost 30 points each and came in max squad sizes of 5 I don't think anyone would complain about them either, other than for the fact that they break the game lore completely in a transparent attempt to resell SM players their entire armies.

2) This is not historically true. For 30+ years, space marines were 1W infantry with one point higher toughness and a better save than normal humans. Better, but not radically so. Then 8th came along.

They should have had 2W in 2nd ed, though. Even moreso than now. 3rd-7th didn't have multidamage weapons, so I don't see how they factor in.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


Marines are in the same category as an army like custodians. NOTHING in the army is chaff. A custodian has 3 W...why does no one complain about custodians have a "basic infantry" with 3 W and a 2+ save and power weapons with d3 damage? Yeah...never seen anyone complain about that once. Cause no one is in dispute...A custodian deserves to be hard to kill. A marine made even more big and bad by primaris geenseed having 2 wounds though? Travesty!

1) Nobody complains about custodes because they're super expensive. If intercessors cost 30 points each and came in max squad sizes of 5 I don't think anyone would complain about them either, other than for the fact that they break the game lore completely in a transparent attempt to resell SM players their entire armies.

2) This is not historically true. For 30+ years, space marines were 1W infantry with one point higher toughness and a better save than normal humans. Better, but not radically so. Then 8th came along.

IMO the games rules have been pretty bad at representing marines on the table in literally every edition except this one that I have played. Actually I think my first post on dakka was back in 3rd edition asking players why marines were so terrible compared to what I read about them. Consensus was something like...yeah...they aren't killers but they are "okay" in this roll ect ect. For literally decades people have been asking to pay more to get more with marines (tacs/ect). Finally we get it and the hate commences.

Marines were fething hot in 3rd ed, too. At least, until the starcannon.

I told you guys the marine hate was real. The second marines become competitive in any way the complaining is incessant.

That was really just Ironhands and Ravengaurd abusing busted "stratagems" and warlord traits and having nothing to do with a primaris marine having 2W. LOL. Ork boys have literally been the cog in several successful tournament builds.

I've been playing primaris marines all eddition - including when marines were bottom tier. A 17 point intercessor without doctrines was overcosted by about 2 points (they started at 20 points in the index). It is worth it with doctrines now. I mean - they are worth their points now FINALLY. What that means is - my 174 point intercessor squad (yeah...thats enough points for a top teir unit in just about any army.) Does not lost me the game. It's also not going to roll over and die like the chaf units boys normally roll over. Cause MARINES ARE NOT A CHAFF UNIT. BOYS ARE.

Marines are in the same category as an army like custodians. NOTHING in the army is chaff. A custodian has 3 W...why does no one complain about custodians have a "basic infantry" with 3 W and a 2+ save and power weapons with d3 damage? Yeah...never seen anyone complain about that once. Cause no one is in dispute...A custodian deserves to be hard to kill. A marine made even more big and bad by primaris geenseed having 2 wounds though? Travesty!

A freaking wrak in prophets of the flesh is literally bouncing Plasmaguns with Skin...that flesh is so tough dude...shoulda left the power armor at home.

I've been a marine player since RT. I can honestly say, for the first time in history, even I am starting to hate marines. For one thing, you have armies like Dark Eldar, who have not had units added in ages, but HAVE consistently LOST units from the codex, and armies like Sisters that went from 3rd to NOW with no meaningful updates. In the face of all that, 8th has just felt like all marines all the time. Upset that your Death Guard haven't been updated since 2017? Sorry, we had to find a way to release codex marines, codex marines 2.0, codex Ultramarines, Codex Salamanders, Codex Primaris LT, etc etc in that same time frame so what were we to do? Sacrifices have to be made.

For years I've been the one saying "Yeah, but they're a business and marines are a reason to print money so I can't fault them" and to an extent, that's still true, but there's a limit!

And saying marines are in the same boat as Custodes? You're kidding right? No one complains about Custodes because you might face 16 of them at once. In the whole army. Not exactly a 1-to-1 w/marines is it? Yes, Iron Hands were ridiculous. The problem is, several chapters were also OP or at least bordering on too strong at the same time. Iron Hands were so OP no one picked up on the fact that Raven Guard, and probably certain aspects of IF needed changed too. We have an edition where the rules were carefully (or at least as carefully as GW ever handles rules) laid out to make the game play a certain way, and then suddenly marines are getting buffs that basically allow them to play almost a completely different game form everyone else. Not only that, but suddenly, they've gone from being able to do everything, but not necessarily being true experts at any of it, to being able to basically be top tier at whatever you want them to do. They gained everything while not losing a single thing. That's probably the biggest issue. They were definitely too weak for too long, but this has been a significant over-correction IMO.

In 7th, when the Eldar book essentially became "Codex Easy Button", everyone complained just as hard. I think it's just that much more frustrating for people when they have an army that literally hasn't been touched in YEARS despite the increased pace of releases, but they see an army that gets constant releases AND is OP at nearly every level. It's not irrational fab-boy hate. It's legitimate frustration IMO. Particularly when you look at what has been released in terms of rules for 9th and realize the edition is, so far, heavily favoring things like Marine MSU ...

It would be nice if units could address each other somehow other than just killing each other. In Regicide, which I somehow love, some options involved preventing other pieces/models from accessing their options. There's lots of arguments for that being bad game design, but suppression is a good thing in war-games because it forces maneuver. Something I'd enjoyed about 8th edition is that it allows models to move around close to each other in interesting ways. Stuff like tri-pointing isn't ideal, but it feels pretty good when a charge maneuver coordinating models and whatnot works (although likewise terrible when it doesn't).

Im a bit on the fence with the new models,

the bike are cool and the ATV is ok but some sound clearance might have been nice!

need to stop a marine spear head all you need is a speed bump !

as for the shield marines there are great models but being able to build them de blinded would be good. i like the clean lines of the primaris and really with guilliman back you'd expect a lot of the gothic to disappear from UM units. saying that these models would make amazing black templars or dark angels which begs the question why paint them blue for the marketing !!

goundry wrote:
Im a bit on the fence with the new models,

the bike are cool and the ATV is ok but some sound clearance might have been nice!

need to stop a marine spear head all you need is a speed bump !

as for the shield marines there are great models but being able to build them de blinded would be good. i like the clean lines of the primaris and really with guilliman back you'd expect a lot of the gothic to disappear from UM units. saying that these models would make amazing black templars or dark angels which begs the question why paint them blue for the marketing !!

personally I think the ATV is the worst looking model they ever produced. The bikes clearance is pathetic too. I will be modifying mine to have some clearance.

Ultramarines look awesome IMO. I do wish they would give you a different chapter on the front of every kit. Which ever look best for the unit. I think the reason is they build and paint a marketing army and they want it to look cohesive for when they make giant chapter images in white dwarfs and stuff.

 Xenomancers wrote:

goundry wrote:
Im a bit on the fence with the new models,

the bike are cool and the ATV is ok but some sound clearance might have been nice!

need to stop a marine spear head all you need is a speed bump !

as for the shield marines there are great models but being able to build them de blinded would be good. i like the clean lines of the primaris and really with guilliman back you'd expect a lot of the gothic to disappear from UM units. saying that these models would make amazing black templars or dark angels which begs the question why paint them blue for the marketing !!

personally I think the ATV is the worst looking model they ever produced. The bikes clearance is pathetic too. I will be modifying mine to have some clearance.

I like the brutality of the bikes, it seems like quite a marine thing to punch bad terrain out of the way.

The ATV is really quite bad, I cant get the image of the driver getting showered by all the gak on the road becuase they only fitted mudguards to the back wheels.....The turret is badly designed, and it's sort of like the ATV has not enough roll cage, while the Invictor has too much.

Tycho wrote:

I told you guys the marine hate was real. The second marines become competitive in any way the complaining is incessant.

That was really just Ironhands and Ravengaurd abusing busted "stratagems" and warlord traits and having nothing to do with a primaris marine having 2W. LOL. Ork boys have literally been the cog in several successful tournament builds.

I've been playing primaris marines all eddition - including when marines were bottom tier. A 17 point intercessor without doctrines was overcosted by about 2 points (they started at 20 points in the index). It is worth it with doctrines now. I mean - they are worth their points now FINALLY. What that means is - my 174 point intercessor squad (yeah...thats enough points for a top teir unit in just about any army.) Does not lost me the game. It's also not going to roll over and die like the chaf units boys normally roll over. Cause MARINES ARE NOT A CHAFF UNIT. BOYS ARE.

Marines are in the same category as an army like custodians. NOTHING in the army is chaff. A custodian has 3 W...why does no one complain about custodians have a "basic infantry" with 3 W and a 2+ save and power weapons with d3 damage? Yeah...never seen anyone complain about that once. Cause no one is in dispute...A custodian deserves to be hard to kill. A marine made even more big and bad by primaris geenseed having 2 wounds though? Travesty!

A freaking wrak in prophets of the flesh is literally bouncing Plasmaguns with Skin...that flesh is so tough dude...shoulda left the power armor at home.

I've been a marine player since RT. I can honestly say, for the first time in history, even I am starting to hate marines. For one thing, you have armies like Dark Eldar, who have not had units added in ages, but HAVE consistently LOST units from the codex, and armies like Sisters that went from 3rd to NOW with no meaningful updates. In the face of all that, 8th has just felt like all marines all the time. Upset that your Death Guard haven't been updated since 2017? Sorry, we had to find a way to release codex marines, codex marines 2.0, codex Ultramarines, Codex Salamanders, Codex Primaris LT, etc etc in that same time frame so what were we to do? Sacrifices have to be made.

For years I've been the one saying "Yeah, but they're a business and marines are a reason to print money so I can't fault them" and to an extent, that's still true, but there's a limit!

And saying marines are in the same boat as Custodes? You're kidding right? No one complains about Custodes because you might face 16 of them at once. In the whole army. Not exactly a 1-to-1 w/marines is it? Yes, Iron Hands were ridiculous. The problem is, several chapters were also OP or at least bordering on too strong at the same time. Iron Hands were so OP no one picked up on the fact that Raven Guard, and probably certain aspects of IF needed changed too. We have an edition where the rules were carefully (or at least as carefully as GW ever handles rules) laid out to make the game play a certain way, and then suddenly marines are getting buffs that basically allow them to play almost a completely different game form everyone else. Not only that, but suddenly, they've gone from being able to do everything, but not necessarily being true experts at any of it, to being able to basically be top tier at whatever you want them to do. They gained everything while not losing a single thing. That's probably the biggest issue. They were definitely too weak for too long, but this has been a significant over-correction IMO.

In 7th, when the Eldar book essentially became "Codex Easy Button", everyone complained just as hard. I think it's just that much more frustrating for people when they have an army that literally hasn't been touched in YEARS despite the increased pace of releases, but they see an army that gets constant releases AND is OP at nearly every level. It's not irrational fab-boy hate. It's legitimate frustration IMO. Particularly when you look at what has been released in terms of rules for 9th and realize the edition is, so far, heavily favoring things like Marine MSU ...

The game actually favors 10 Man units for marines (with 10 man units I can basically cover the whole table and chain to a 6" aura of reroll everything.) ITC was an entirely different way to play the game. I say was because ITC looks to be the way 9th ed will play. Which is sad because they have catered to the MTG style players that dont actually want units interacting at all. Can't get to pessimistic - I like a lot of these new changes so far as well.

On the issue for marines. They needed those buffs. Super doctrines they probably didn't need. You gotta realize. Marine vehicals weren't getting chapter tactics for all of 8th eddition until the new codex...when everyone elses did (cept chaos....which still makes no sense) - marine units were over-costed by approximately 20% accorss the board (because they were the first codex released). Instead of reducing the cost of everything they decided to make things worth those points...So they got +1A first round of combat and an additional -1 AP for certain weapon types on certain turns and IMO a great way to make bad units good.

IMO buffing IF chapter tactic was a stupid idea...they already had an amazing tactic (ignore cover is a fantastic army wide ability) They didn't need DAKKA DAKKA on top of it. Iron hands literally have 3 army traits when most armies have 1. It is clear where they messed up.

I dream of chapter tactics on all my units. Imagine if they let devastator squads have CT... Off. The. Chain.

Wait. No. I meant obsessions and Scourges.

I liked the marines getting fixed. I really didn't like them getting super doctrines. Their power is perfect without them.

Drager wrote:
I dream of chapter tactics on all my units. Imagine if they let devastator squads have CT... Off. The. Chain.

Wait. No. I meant obsessions and Scourges.

I liked the marines getting fixed. I really didn't like them getting super doctrines. Their power is perfect without them.

Yeah makes no sense why there are units in the DE codex that are literally excluded in writing from befitting from kabal traits.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Drager wrote:
I dream of chapter tactics on all my units. Imagine if they let devastator squads have CT... Off. The. Chain.

Wait. No. I meant obsessions and Scourges.

I liked the marines getting fixed. I really didn't like them getting super doctrines. Their power is perfect without them.

Yeah makes no sense why there are units in the DE codex that are literally excluded in writing from befitting from kabal traits.

It's because they're MERCENARIES...well, except for they're literally all supposed to be mercenaries...including the units like Hellions and Reavers who are members of independent gangs and just as much a separate mercenary organization like the Scourges are....except you can't have your Kabalites hire a group of Reavers as mercenaries, they're part of the wych cults and they're locked in to the wych cult traits....

WE WANTED TO SPLIT UP THE CODEX, OK? GOD. JUST LET US ARBITRARILY DIVIDE IT INTO THREE, PLUS A BUNCH OF RANDOS WHO JUST DONT GET A TRAIT BECAUSE WE DONT KNOW HOW THEY FIT IN!!!