Switch Theme:

Are horde armies really all that bad?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Blackie wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
nothing wrong with hoard armies, but most armies have trouble chewing through large hoards. GW is just giving dedicated tools for that.

it's like complaining that GW hates vehicles because the game has lascannons.


On the other hand most horde armies have trouble killing the unkillable stuff. Seriously, horde armies do well only because they are anti tournament meta. In a full game, played with TAC lists, their efficiency drops dramatically while stuff like SM,
Spoiler:
knights, AM
... is still very good.

Fixed that typo for you, nothing competes with Codex Reroll Doctorines.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 p5freak wrote:
 Blackie wrote:

This is bull, what really slow downs the game is SM and they're thousands re-rolls.


Not true. A unit of 10 intercessors gets 20 shots at rapid fire, they hit 13 times, and get 7 rerolls with a chapter master. 25 ork boys with shootas get 50 shots, rerolling 1s, and additional rolls for dakka dakka dakka, when rolling 6s. In melee 10 intercessors have 34 attacks, they hit 23 times, getting 11 rerolls. Next turn this goes down to 23 attacks. 25 ork boys in melee with choppas already have 100 attacks, getting additional attacks for 6s.


Only on paper. The majority of the ork boyz will die before shooting due to short range and t-shirt saves, let alone fighting in combat, that's the sad reality. Hordes are never good for the sheer number of shots/attack that their countless bodies grants on paper, but because they are tons of cheap wounds that invalidate the enemy anti tank. Their strenght is board control, not any offensive ability. Oh, and only bad moons re-roll 1s and bad moons boyz are extremely uncommon, and only goffs orks, also not among the most common choices, get additional attacks on 6s.

10 intercessors will definitely roll more dice during the entire game than 25 boyz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:

Fixed that typo for you, nothing competes with Codex Reroll Doctorines.


Of course not, but they're still very good in any possible meta, competitive or not.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/15 08:12:50


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 p5freak wrote:
 Blackie wrote:

This is bull, what really slow downs the game is SM and they're thousands re-rolls.


Not true. A unit of 10 intercessors gets 20 shots at rapid fire, they hit 13 times, and get 7 rerolls with a chapter master. 25 ork boys with shootas get 50 shots, rerolling 1s, and additional rolls for dakka dakka dakka, when rolling 6s. In melee 10 intercessors have 34 attacks, they hit 23 times, getting 11 rerolls. Next turn this goes down to 23 attacks. 25 ork boys in melee with choppas already have 100 attacks, getting additional attacks for 6s.


You are forgeting that 10 intercessors is shooting from turn 1, Orks are not, So you need to double that just to get orks in range to shoot once, and they get re-roll wounds of 1 at least. 20 shots with 7 re-rolls is 4.6 more hits, lets say 18 hits b.c its actually 13.336 hits at first rolls, with rrw1s is 3 re-rolls. In total those 10 are rolling 48 dice. Over 2 turns that is 96 dice.

So when it comes to rolling dice, Marines are rolling more shooting dice compare to Shootas.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 08:15:05


   
Made in cz
Regular Dakkanaut




I can roll single minded annihilation on 30 devilgants (180 shots with rerolls of 1) faster than my friend can go through one round of combat with his varied weapon wolf guard terminators.

*face palm*

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 08:19:44


 
   
Made in de
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






And then there are also a couple of rolls outside of attacking to consider. For example the Boyz often don't even roll there armor saves, while the Marines do. I'm not that knowledgable with Marines but I expect there are also builts/combinations/auras that let them reroll said armor saves/add a FNP roll
Then the Marines can reroll their morale roll (which the Boyz often don't have to roll at all due to mob rule)

~6550 build and painted
819 build and painted
830 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

Horde armies are there worst in three respects who have big impacts on you as a player.

1: The cost of buying the models is enourmus. Say you buy a box or ork boys, congrants. Just two more to go and you have a group of 30 boys. With space marines one box not only is enough, but in game those marines costs more then the 30 boys. (To some degree.)

2: Painting hordes takes so very long! Do not do this!

3: When playing you will spend to much time moving models around or roll dice. A friend of mine is a slow player to begin with, but with ork boys he takes for ages.

While point 1 and 2 has no inpact on strategy, point 3 does have an inpact on strategy.

The rest we will wait and see for 8th edition.


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Orks can have a Invul and FnP tho. Just like many other hordes lists can, Daemons, Nids, etc... Even SoB hordes can have FnP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Niiai wrote:
Horde armies are there worst in three respects who have big impacts on you as a player.

1: The cost of buying the models is enourmus. Say you buy a box or ork boys, congrants. Just two more to go and you have a group of 30 boys. With space marines one box not only is enough, but in game those marines costs more then the 30 boys. (To some degree.)

2: Painting hordes takes so very long! Do not do this!

3: When playing you will spend to much time moving models around or roll dice. A friend of mine is a slow player to begin with, but with ork boys he takes for ages.

While point 1 and 2 has no inpact on strategy, point 3 does have an inpact on strategy.

The rest we will wait and see for 8th edition.



My nids took me less than 10 hours to paint 5k points. Painting hordes doesn't have to be long. It took longer to base them than it did to paint them.
Certain Box sets are cheaper to play hordes too if you can get them that way. I got 30 Ork Boys for $15 USD b.c of splitting box sets in the past. Why did i need 00 Boyz when i don't play them? Terrain, bits, w/e it was $15 new on sprue b.c it was part of a split box.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/15 08:28:34


   
Made in pt
Fireknife Shas'el




Lisbon, Portugal

I guess we'll get more info on hordes and morale this week

AI & BFG: / BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion & X-Wing: CIS / WWX: Union

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

 Shadenuat wrote:
Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army.
 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Amishprn86 wrote:
Orks can have a Invul and FnP tho. Just like many other hordes lists can, Daemons, Nids, etc... Even SoB hordes can have FnP.

FNP doesn't scale with unit size, but with number of wounds caused. A unit of plague marines rolls just as many saves as a unit of SoB.

Certain Box sets are cheaper to play hordes too if you can get them that way. I got 30 Ork Boys for $15 USD b.c of splitting box sets in the past. Why did i need 00 Boyz when i don't play them? Terrain, bits, w/e it was $15 new on sprue b.c it was part of a split box.

What box set was that supposed to be? AOBR from ten year ago?

Today, a new unit of ork boyz is at least $75 (according to the store with the highest discount I could find), and you need at least two or three of those, otherwise don't bother with ork boyz at all.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I asked a similar question about army soup and not I'm tackling this topic. I fully agree with GW's decision to reform things in the 9th edition and to not allow crap like a few grots holding up tanks, but to just punish them all strikes me as wrong. Lore-wise, IG, orks, tyranids, certain CSM armies and daemons generally revolve around hordes of some kind, to varying degrees. Am I really a bad person for wanting to swarm the field with load of berzerkers and bloodletters? Thoughts on this issue.


No, and since dex 2.0 SM horde armies get hard countered by about 60% of all the lists available due to how prevalent marines are.
further yes it is possible to outhorde even ih, but then we are tallking about hordes on a magnitude that you won't even be able to field them all competetnly into your deployment zone.


The truth is, the reason for the effectiveness of the horde ocmes down to the sizecreep and inevitable creep of anti tank / heavy boy weaponry. Both of these things the big boys and the guns to bring them down cost alot more, horde plays into that and exploits the low body count and is therefore able to (was is more accurate) to win via playing in essence another minigame within the game called grab the objectives and dig in.
it also was immensly easy to ignore morale for alot of horde armies, Commisars in early 8th, IW warlord trait or failbaddon cultist conga.

However even within hordes there are very massive differences in what worked and what not. Take the PB horde which worked for a lot of 8th due to an -1 to hit and invul aswell as FNP.
Most hordes couldn't out last these hordes.
Also Morale immune hordes > not morale immune hordes, wherever that imunisation came from.

In most cases, as allready stated, your average tac list could drive a horde army into the ground no questions asked, but the humble taclist itself got out sizecreeped and put to the side because gw insited that it'd be a smart idea to implement full super heavy armies .

In many ways the hordes as issue is untrue, especially when the first dexes started dropping, and more a sign of a symptom of the scale creep.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 09:19:52


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





One thing that hordes got for them is that now they probably count as always being in cover, due to how the obstacles work. It's going to be quite difficult not having at least a rock/barrel/whatever between one of your boyz and the attacker.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 09:18:31


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Spoletta wrote:
One thing that hordes got for them is that now they probably count as always being in cover, due to how the obstacles work. It's going to be quite difficult not having at least a rock/barrel/whatever between one of your boyz and the attacker.


With the prevalence of the popularity of SM and the tac doctrine that really doesn't matter.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 Amishprn86 wrote:

You are forgeting that 10 intercessors is shooting from turn 1, Orks are not, So you need to double that just to get orks in range to shoot once, and they get re-roll wounds of 1 at least. 20 shots with 7 re-rolls is 4.6 more hits, lets say 18 hits b.c its actually 13.336 hits at first rolls, with rrw1s is 3 re-rolls. In total those 10 are rolling 48 dice. Over 2 turns that is 96 dice.


Again not true. 30 orks T1 hiding behind LOS blocking terrain, da jumping 9.1" in front of intercessors, needing an 8 on the charge, because of evil sunz, rerolling a failed charge, making it, suffer only overwatch from intercessors. Meanwhile, 2x30 boys advance towards your intercessors with a boss, and can still charge. They are 100% in melee T2. And if your intercessors fail to completely wipe 30 boys they will all come back for 3CP.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






The only thing that's really slow about hordes is movement, and there is nothing you can do about it.

Dice rolls can be sped up through apps, when my warbikers start shooting, I can roll those 72 dice faster than most marine players take to find their dice.

Movement often can be sped up by reducing accuracy, but once you need to pile in or consolidate, you have no such liberties.
And I agree that GW has done nothing to change this, for example by implementing rules for using movement trays more naturally - for example, they could allow an entire movement tray to fight when it is within 1" of an enemy unit.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Well gw also insited that you tripoint more or less if you want to tie something permanently down. which also takes time to set up propperly.

Otoh, rerolling has gotten so ridicoulus especially when FNP's are also invovled...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Wild to see people claiming horde armies "slow the game down too much" as though the problem is horde armies per se, rather than not allocating enough time to play the game at a given size / trying to play too big a game in the time available.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 p5freak wrote:

Again not true. 30 orks T1 hiding behind LOS blocking terrain, da jumping 9.1" in front of intercessors, needing an 8 on the charge, because of evil sunz, rerolling a failed charge, making it, suffer only overwatch from intercessors. Meanwhile, 2x30 boys advance towards your intercessors with a boss, and can still charge. They are 100% in melee T2. And if your intercessors fail to completely wipe 30 boys they will all come back for 3CP.


First you assume that all orks are bad moons so they automatically re-roll 1s, then they all are goffs with exploding 6s in melee, now they're evil sunz so all orks need a 8'' charge. Maybe you're not aware but an ork detachment can have only one clan bonus, like anyone else.

Jumping boyz is a good strategy, so is bringing expendable screeners to mess them up and reduce their killyness. Force those boyz to show up near scouts or 5 man squads of intercessors, they won't be an issue for the SM player then.

Those 2x30 with the warboss are footslogging and they realistically reach melee at 25-30% of their forces, if they aren't wiped out before.

The 3CPs stratagem is also a thing, but a very expensive one for an army that is extremely CPs hungry and those orks will be far from the action in the turn they arrive, so no dice rolling for them and all the time in the world for the opponent to deal with them.

 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 p5freak wrote:
Again not true. 30 orks T1 hiding behind LOS blocking terrain, da jumping 9.1" in front of intercessors, needing an 8 on the charge, because of evil sunz, rerolling a failed charge, making it, suffer only overwatch from intercessors. Meanwhile, 2x30 boys advance towards your intercessors with a boss, and can still charge. They are 100% in melee T2. And if your intercessors fail to completely wipe 30 boys they will all come back for 3CP.


So, what is it p5freak? Are those orks wasting your time through their re-rolls? Because of their exploding sixes in combat? Or do they have +1 to charges?
Did you forget to use your stratagem to shoot at models arriving from reserves? Was the TF cannon gunner on a break?
How are you hiding 30 32mm bases out of LoS while also advancing across the board in two turns? Did you move forward towards your enemy so he has a 100% charge after moving 10"+2d6?
What were those other troop slots doing while 630 points of boyz spread across 3 slots were walking up the board to maul your 170 point unit? What was the rest of the army doing?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/15 09:49:58


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





I actually like hordes, either using them (Genestealer cults, Imperial Guard, Orks, Nurgle) or against them. No one really knows how everything is going to pan out with the new edition, and whilst I think the increases to blast weapons lethality is a good thing, I'm hoping points are costed accordingly

I've been playing a while, my first model was a lead marine and my first White Dwarf was bound with staples 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





6pts cultists would probably disagree huron.

Probably

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Not Online!!! wrote:
6pts cultists would probably disagree huron.

Probably


But perhaps blast weapon points will be where the balance comes in, or the horde key word granting some extra abilities

I've been playing a while, my first model was a lead marine and my first White Dwarf was bound with staples 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Huron black heart wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
6pts cultists would probably disagree huron.

Probably


But perhaps blast weapon points will be where the balance comes in, or the horde key word granting some extra abilities


I don't see blasts to being that bad though. Even for something like a tank commander with battlecannon (ordering itself) we will be looking at 3 additional cultists or boyz killed compared to what it did before. I somehow doubt people will start shooting their big guns at boyz instead of targets they are shooting now just because of blasts.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





 Jidmah wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Again not true. 30 orks T1 hiding behind LOS blocking terrain, da jumping 9.1" in front of intercessors, needing an 8 on the charge, because of evil sunz, rerolling a failed charge, making it, suffer only overwatch from intercessors. Meanwhile, 2x30 boys advance towards your intercessors with a boss, and can still charge. They are 100% in melee T2. And if your intercessors fail to completely wipe 30 boys they will all come back for 3CP.


So, what is it p5freak? Are those orks wasting your time through their re-rolls? Because of their exploding sixes in combat? Or do they have +1 to charges?
Did you forget to use your stratagem to shoot at models arriving from reserves? Was the TF cannon gunner on a break?
How are you hiding 30 32mm bases out of LoS while also advancing across the board in two turns? Did you move forward towards your enemy so he has a 100% charge after moving 10"+2d6?
What were those other troop slots doing while 630 points of boyz spread across 3 slots were walking up the board to maul your 170 point unit? What was the rest of the army doing?


Son, round these parts we only compare things in a vacuum. Take your reasonable arguments outta here before you get an ass whoopin'


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





What the blast change will probably do is to make available some equipment that previously were not.

No one was using frag grenades, maybe that now they will.
How many barbed stranglers did you see around? Plasma cannons? The blast rule gives a purpose to many previously unused weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
One thing that hordes got for them is that now they probably count as always being in cover, due to how the obstacles work. It's going to be quite difficult not having at least a rock/barrel/whatever between one of your boyz and the attacker.


With the prevalence of the popularity of SM and the tac doctrine that really doesn't matter.


Apart from few exceptions, those doctrines don't work on turn 1, or work ONLY for turn 1. Hordes are a problem that you have from turn 1 to turn 5.

The new terrain system paired with the strategic reserves (supposed one at least) makes it so that you can dictate when and how your opponent can shoot at you. They said that 9th edition is the CC and short/mid range edition, and reveal after reveal i'm starting to see it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 10:20:50


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






p5freak wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:

You are forgeting that 10 intercessors is shooting from turn 1, Orks are not, So you need to double that just to get orks in range to shoot once, and they get re-roll wounds of 1 at least. 20 shots with 7 re-rolls is 4.6 more hits, lets say 18 hits b.c its actually 13.336 hits at first rolls, with rrw1s is 3 re-rolls. In total those 10 are rolling 48 dice. Over 2 turns that is 96 dice.


Again not true. 30 orks T1 hiding behind LOS blocking terrain, da jumping 9.1" in front of intercessors, needing an 8 on the charge, because of evil sunz, rerolling a failed charge, making it, suffer only overwatch from intercessors. Meanwhile, 2x30 boys advance towards your intercessors with a boss, and can still charge. They are 100% in melee T2. And if your intercessors fail to completely wipe 30 boys they will all come back for 3CP.


Now you are talking about scenarios and i'm not getting involved with you on that, b.c i can post 50 others to show how that wont work. On average the Marine player will roll more dice give the army as a whole vs a horde army. We can talk about unit vs unit all day, what matters is the army as a whole.

From my Experience with playing Hordes (120models+) those games are always faster than Non horde games with armies that has lots of re-rolls.

You are also forgetting (I think someone else said it already) that every turn if you both lose equal of your forces, the horde player is removing a lot more models, which both move and shoot, and that is even more dice not being rolled. If the Marine player loses 5 guys, well the Nid player might love 30 Gaunts, those 5 guys are rolling 40+ dice with re-rolls, where those gants turn 1 might have done nothing but died (there's a scenario for you).


   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

The thing that slows the game are slow players.


For feths sake, I swear theres players that are payed for each minute they use to play this game. I don't like chess clocks but with some people I would not only use it, I would smak them in the head with one every time they "take a moment to think" and spend 5 minutes lookin at the existential void that are their lives.


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Amishprn86 wrote:
From my Experience with playing Hordes (120models+) those games are always faster than Non horde games with armies that has lots of re-rolls.

The funny part is that I would agree with p5freak, but he is arguing in bad faith using armies as an example he doesn't understand properly.

Playing a competitive ork army with da jump, tellyporta and endless green tide is actually really time-efficient as you spend almost no time moving you models - they all deep strike or remain stationary and shoot. When playing this way turns don't last any longer than armies with other time-consuming mechanics like AM orders or a TS psychic phase. Boyz also tend to be mostly wiped out by T3, and the few hand full still running about hardly take any time - rolling a bunch of dice once or twice per game hardly match all the re-rolls that some armies accumulate over the course of a game.
Before the codex dropped, orks had to bring 180 or more boyz, protected by KFF and pain boy and had no other chance but march them up the board. You couldn't cut any corners when moving or rolling saves, you needed those fractions of an inch and 6+++ saves in order to squeeze out a win. Playing (against) armies like that takes a lot of time and should receive some support from the rules to speed up their game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
The thing that slows the game are slow players.


For feths sake, I swear theres players that are payed for each minute they use to play this game. I don't like chess clocks but with some people I would not only use it, I would smak them in the head with one every time they "take a moment to think" and spend 5 minutes lookin at the existential void that are their lives.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis

Guide them to making their decision, speed up your games

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/15 10:57:36


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Eihnlazer wrote:
Hoard is becoming a keyword in 9th and a lot of units are going to be changing and there will be new additions to the rules that utilize the hoards keyword.


Example of such a change would be:

Tyranid Hormagaunts: unit size 10-40.

If you purchase 20 or more hormagaunts in a single squad they gain the hoard keyword.





Hoard will affect many things im assuming. Some examples would be:

A unit choosing to fall back from a hoard unit suffers a -1 to their fall back check.

A hoard unit who is above 50% of its original models can never loose more than 6 models due to a failed moral check.

A hoard unit that is surrounding a destroyed transport instantly kills all occupants.

A hoard unit that is composed of more than 30 models does not gain the benefit of cover until they are reduced to less than 20 models.

A hoard unit that has objective secured and has the majority of its models within 3" of an objective automatically claims control of said objective.



Note the above are just examples of things that could be applied to hoards.


Id love to know if you have a source for any of these pieces of info. Not your speculation but

1) the existence of a horde keyword

2) Fall Back tests?

Etc

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Wicked Ghast




 Huron black heart wrote:
I actually like hordes, either using them (Genestealer cults, Imperial Guard, Orks, Nurgle) or against them. No one really knows how everything is going to pan out with the new edition, and whilst I think the increases to blast weapons lethality is a good thing, I'm hoping points are costed accordingly


I like horde armies too, and I love elite armies as well. It's fun to play them against each other! (especially when fully painted). In a recent Vox Cast, from Tabletop Tactics, Lawrence and Bone seemed like they were very confident in the points costs and balancing of the new edition, so I have hope. I think the biggest thing here is that we are making snap decisions with half of the information we need. I'm sure there are plenty more changes.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





The problem with hordes is, imo, largely a result of scale and abstraction. Even with hordey armies: orks/nids etc... there aren't enough models they can bring to really function as a "horde" relative to the amount of shots/firepower Space Marines can bring.

As usual with GW, the problem lies in having every xeno faction being largely a foil for Space Marines to annihilate in epic lore stories.

With the points increase in 9th, I think this will only get worse. What will happen with less models over all is that hordes would feel even less of a horde, largely because of the very relevant housekeeping issues (takes a lot of time to move and arrange hundreds of models on a board).

So it seems that unless the horde keyword confers some very gamey effects, 40k is spinning its wheels in exactly the same place it has always been: way too many space marines making for boring and tactically uninspired play styles.

Ultimately, because GW is a business, I don't fault them. They supply people's demand for fantasy juice. At some point the cycle has to be broken.

As in:

For the love of the Warp:

Stop
Buying
Space
Marines

I have a small Dark Angels faction, which I never, ever use, largely because...It is just enough with the space marines.

Cheers!
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: