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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






tulun wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


There is no interpreting that rule. The wording is completely clear. If you think a morkanaut gets 9 shots against 6+ marines you are just flatly wrong. The rule references the result of the roll that determines the number of shots the weapon gets. A heavy 3d3 weapon that rolls 3 1's is a RESULT of 3, not 3 separate results of 1.


So your assertion that a D3 weapon represents the size of blast when combined into a 3D3 weapon has a blast so small as to never benefit ever?


A 3d3 shot weapon cannot benefit from the first part of the new blast weapons rule. It makes absolutely no reference to individual dice or numbers rolled on individual dice, and exclusively talks about the result of the roll to determine the number of shots the weapon fires.

There is zero interpretation to be had there. they even discussed it in detail during the stream. It's completely clear what the rule does, you're just inventing a fantasy to pretend that space marines will ever be under any kind of risk from that rule. A handful of weapons getting 3 shots instead of D3 if the marine player decides not to be braindead and make use of Free Space Marine Rule #5362 that allows them to just decide to split 10 man squads into 5 man squads at the start of the game does not constitute equal risk.


"Werner: In the absence of dedicated indirect fire units, the best way to (literally) get around line-of-sight-blocking terrain is by making use of the myriad movement abilities that Necrons have at their disposal. The Doom Scythe, in particular, can use its speed and freedom of movement to get eyes on a valuable target from across the table, then obliterate it with its death ray. What’s more, as a Blast weapon, the death ray will be effective against large enemy units as well as enemy vehicles – you’ll automatically get your maximum of three shots against units of six of more, which will be great for zapping Space Marines."

This gun is d3. From the latest warhammer community article about necrons.

Question answered. Very, very odd, that apparently LARGER blasts don't get a bonus from 6-10, but go absolutely ham 11+, but that's apparently what they went with. Another disincentive to go beyond 10, and it's interesting a lot of very, very powerful d3 guns are going to just smash elite space marines. Look at what Smasha guns do (for example) if they auto get 3 shots at 33 points each.


D3 shot weapons get the maximum number of shots because the maximum number of shots for a D3 weapon is 3.

I definitely agree that it is bizarre that they tried to make a scaling rule and instead, exactly like with characters, created a bizarre, highly spiky situation where the second you hit 11 models gak goes absolutely off the wall.

But they seemed to like that. They even higlighted on stream how cool it was when you use the grenade throwing stratagem on a unit of guardsmen to, for 1CP, allow them to throw 60 shots.

A 40pt unit - lets be charitable and say a probably 60pt or 70pt unit - can put down 60 shots for a single command point, and this was highlighted as a cool feature, rather than a bug, of 9th ed.

Imagine playing a normal 300pt game of, say, infinity, and taking a single 9pt model, some sort of conscript or something. And you use some little ability he has, and you go to a bag and pull out SIXTY GODDAMN DICE to resolve that ability.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




the_scotsman wrote:


D3 shot weapons get the maximum number of shots because the maximum number of shots for a D3 weapon is 3.

I definitely agree that it is bizarre that they tried to make a scaling rule and instead, exactly like with characters, created a bizarre, highly spiky situation where the second you hit 11 models gak goes absolutely off the wall.

But they seemed to like that. They even higlighted on stream how cool it was when you use the grenade throwing stratagem on a unit of guardsmen to, for 1CP, allow them to throw 60 shots.

A 40pt unit - lets be charitable and say a probably 60pt or 70pt unit - can put down 60 shots for a single command point, and this was highlighted as a cool feature, rather than a bug, of 9th ed.

Imagine playing a normal 300pt game of, say, infinity, and taking a single 9pt model, some sort of conscript or something. And you use some little ability he has, and you go to a bag and pull out SIXTY GODDAMN DICE to resolve that ability.


Yeah, I wager you're correct here. People complaining hordes are the problem when random 50-60 point units can cheaply roll a bucket of dice, probably with re-rolls is way more problematic.

And frankly, this level of deadliness is WHY hordes can be slow in the movement phase. A single misplaced model, exposed to line of sight, can result in the squad getting wiped out. 1 boy, his hand slightly outstretched, can eat 144 re-rollling to hit, re-rolling 1 to wound, str 4 shots. From 6 models.

I think people need to get their heads out of their asses if they think that isn't the real problem of 8th edition. Back when I first started playing in 3rd edition, 144 shots might represent 3 ROUNDS or more of shooting from my army, not 222 points of a single unit, which can do it again in overwatch.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





tulun wrote:


Yeah, I wager you're correct here. People complaining hordes are the problem when random 50-60 point units can cheaply roll a bucket of dice, probably with re-rolls is way more problematic.

And frankly, this level of deadliness is WHY hordes can be slow in the movement phase. A single misplaced model, exposed to line of sight, can result in the squad getting wiped out. 1 boy, his hand slightly outstretched, can eat 144 re-rollling to hit, re-rolling 1 to wound, str 4 shots. From 6 models.

I think people need to get their heads out of their asses if they think that isn't the real problem of 8th edition. Back when I first started playing in 3rd edition, 144 shots might represent 3 ROUNDS or more of shooting from my army, not 222 points of a single unit, which can do it again in overwatch.


I presume we're talking about aggressors which are pretty slow and have few options to close the distance and get double shots. Not to mention you're neglecting the cost of the units and CP getting them full reroll hits and reroll 1s to wound.

That said I wouldn't be sad to see reroll auras move to 'select one unit' during the command phase. And for all we know aggressors will go up and boyz will stay the same.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 20:01:33


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Necron warriors have de facto retained the old cost, so they are clearly using this scaling up as another balance pass.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




They're all interrelated. Rate of fire is what it is because hordes got such an increase in model number. Hordes got such an increase in model number because they had to balance out primaris and the only way to do so was to deflate points costs for every army besides space marines. But that meant space marines had to get massive rate of fire so they could blow up those huge hordes. Etc etc.

It's all a big spiral that comes back to the decision to redo space marines.

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




yukishiro1 wrote:
They're all interrelated. Rate of fire is what it is because hordes got such an increase in model number. Hordes got such an increase in model number because they had to balance out primaris and the only way to do so was to deflate points costs for every army besides space marines. But that meant space marines had to get massive rate of fire so they could blow up those huge hordes. Etc etc.

It's all a big spiral that comes back to the decision to redo space marines.



I can see that point, but marines were hot garbage in 7th without 500 pts of free stuff. Marines had stopped functioning.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:


I presume we're talking about aggressors which are pretty slow and have few options to close the distance and get double shots. Not to mention you're neglecting the cost of the units and CP getting them full reroll hits and reroll 1s to wound.

That said I wouldn't be sad to see reroll auras move to 'select one unit' during the command phase. And for all we know aggressors will go up and boyz will stay the same.



I'm largely picking on them because they are probably one of, if not the most egregious example, which now should average even more shots in 9th edition.

The CP cost for a chapter master is... irrelevant. It's an auto take. You'd be stupid not to do it. It's far too good. If it becomes only 1 unit as you suggest, that would be a huge positive. Still very good, just not obscene.

Although this kind of rate of fire feels cool, it definitely goes against their philosophy of "play the game faster", and it seems silly to pick on hordes as a general issue for slowing the game down as it has been suggested in this thread.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Martel732 wrote:

I can see that point, but marines were hot garbage in 7th without 500 pts of free stuff. Marines had stopped functioning.


I don't disagree, but there were a lot of solutions to that that didn't involve the arms race they set off.

GW's basic mechanics (D6, roll to hit, roll to wound, roll to save) work well enough when you have armies with vaguely similar stats and vaguely similar model counts. But it just can't scope with skew. And what they did in 8th was skew the whole game to try to make marines more attractive, when they should have just fixed marines in a more traditional way.

But to get back to the original question:

No, horde armies aren't bad. What is bad in a game where you have armies with model counts of 200+ fighting armies with model counts of 30 or 40. At least when that system uses GW's basic rules interface. The rules just can't cope with skew that extreme.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/06/15 20:28:29


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I can see the argument for that. Having basic guys with 2W doesn't seem that crazy though when weapons get multiple damage now.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think that's what GW thought too. And it might not have been, had they stayed at 2W intercessors. But then the snowball started going down the hill and getting bigger and bigger and before you knew it you had 250 man nid lists and space marine infantry squads of 6 models putting out 140 shots with full hit rerolls and rerolls of 1s to wound and IF artillery lists where by far the most important thing in the game was rolling to see who got to go first.







This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 20:42:10


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




yukishiro1 wrote:


But to get back to the original question:

No, horde armies aren't bad. What is bad in a game where you have armies with model counts of 200+ fighting armies with model counts of 30 or 40. At least when that system uses GW's basic rules interface. The rules just can't cope with skew that extreme.


Even worse.

You can have armies with just 3-5 models (IE: Knights only) face off against 200-300+ models.

Good luck balancing that scale.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm going to find it funny if hordes turn out to be mad overpowered in 9th because the missions turn out to all be about holding objectives and so sticking lots of obsec bodies down who can then *perform actions* or something instead of shooting for more victory points is an obvious way to win.

Its not what I'd expect to happen, but still.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Tyel wrote:
I'm going to find it funny if hordes turn out to be mad overpowered in 9th because the missions turn out to all be about holding objectives and so sticking lots of obsec bodies down who can then *perform actions* or something instead of shooting for more victory points is an obvious way to win.

Its not what I'd expect to happen, but still.


That's kinda how CA 2019 plays. Hordes are WAY better than in ITC.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




I don't disagree, but there were a lot of solutions to that that didn't involve the arms race they set off.

GW's basic mechanics (D6, roll to hit, roll to wound, roll to save) work well enough when you have armies with vaguely similar stats and vaguely similar model counts. But it just can't scope with skew. And what they did in 8th was skew the whole game to try to make marines more attractive, when they should have just fixed marines in a more traditional way.

But to get back to the original question:

No, horde armies aren't bad. What is bad in a game where you have armies with model counts of 200+ fighting armies with model counts of 30 or 40. At least when that system uses GW's basic rules interface. The rules just can't cope with skew that extreme.


Agree horde armies aren't bad, but rate of fire is probably 3rd or 4th on the list of things that are causing the game to take too long, and it's pretty easily solved w/a dice app, so again, this is trying to "solve" the problem by avoiding the actual answer - Strategems and re-rolls are the top two things causing the game to take too long, and any attempt to solve game length w/out addressing those two points will be wasted time in the end.


I'm only an Ork player. I'm not overly stressed out, as honestly, fielding 120+ boys isn't particularly a fun way to play anyway.

I just hope our more mechanized style is costed aggressively enough so we can still throw down. Saga gave Orks a ton of great options.

But my incentive to play boys seems pretty low, given gak like aggressors can now guarantee 144 shots if they shoot twice, with full re-rolls to hit. Even if I stack a KFF and painboy, that easily wipes out a 30 man boy squad on average, and they are currently 37 points each. I have no idea who costs this stuff, because that is BANANAS. It's enough shooting that they can bloody anything besides T8 models.

The deadliness of certain models / units is just beyond 11 at this point.


Yep. Same here. The reason Orks are just my "fun" project army is specifically because I hate carting around all the boys and grots. I'm very much a "toys before boyz" Ork builder. The problem is that, when you try to build an ork list that relies more heavily on non-boys units, you instantly start to see why the army A. doesn't function w/out a million CP, and B. is largely over-costed outside of the troops slots. So my concern is that, if our stuff is already too expensive, the new edition is looking to essentially reduce/eliminate light infantry, armies will be 50-200pts (depending on who you ask) smaller, AND everything is going UP in points across the board - it doesn't paint a very rosey picture does it?

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Martel732 wrote:
Tyel wrote:
I'm going to find it funny if hordes turn out to be mad overpowered in 9th because the missions turn out to all be about holding objectives and so sticking lots of obsec bodies down who can then *perform actions* or something instead of shooting for more victory points is an obvious way to win.

Its not what I'd expect to happen, but still.


That's kinda how CA 2019 plays. Hordes are WAY better than in ITC.


That's what I think - I know others disagree.

Now admittedly it doesn't make me think an unmodified cultist is going to be worth 6 points if a Primaris is worth 20 and necron warriors are 12 - but I guess we can see.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

yukishiro1 wrote:


No, horde armies aren't bad. What is bad in a game where you have armies with model counts of 200+ fighting armies with model counts of 30 or 40. At least when that system uses GW's basic rules interface. The rules just can't cope with skew that extreme.


There's nothing bad in playing with armies with different model counts, what's really bad is the power creep that one faction can have, horde or elite it doesn't matter.

Fighting hordes is actually a lot of fun, everyone loves killing enemy models and removing 50 dudes is more satisfying that removing 5 or 10; what it isn't fun at all are those unkillable models like knights that soak an entire 1 or even 2 turns of firepower from the full list. Even at a lower scale, those models that have too many layers of saves for their points cost and simply refuse to die are also very annoying.

 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




It's still possible that hordes get a discount on the base price. I don't know what they are doing.
   
Made in nl
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Without knowing the full rules it is hard to say, but judging by what we have seen so far I have even less regrets shelving my Orks for a DG army. I played with a bunch of boys because that was the only way to consistently win games, not because I particularly enjoy shoving around 120+ models.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Blackie wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:


No, horde armies aren't bad. What is bad in a game where you have armies with model counts of 200+ fighting armies with model counts of 30 or 40. At least when that system uses GW's basic rules interface. The rules just can't cope with skew that extreme.


There's nothing bad in playing with armies with different model counts, what's really bad is the power creep that one faction can have, horde or elite it doesn't matter.

Fighting hordes is actually a lot of fun, everyone loves killing enemy models and removing 50 dudes is more satisfying that removing 5 or 10; what it isn't fun at all are those unkillable models like knights that soak an entire 1 or even 2 turns of firepower from the full list. Even at a lower scale, those models that have too many layers of saves for their points cost and simply refuse to die are also very annoying.


But there is a problem with playing armies with different model sizes in GW's ruleset. The basic way GW's rules are set up simply does not allow for a game between a horde of 250 nids and 3 knights to be balanced. There is just too much skew, and GW's mechanics don't handle skew well. It's just the math of how the D6 base hit/wound/save paradigm works out, particularly once you start throwing in rerolls or, even worse, bonuses to hit and especially to wound.

GW's rule work well for roughly equivalent forces. But as soon as the numbers start getting too fundamentally different, it breaks down, and you start having to introduce snowballing mechanics like 6 aggressors shooting 140 shots or morale immune 4-point cultists to try to compensate for one another, and the result is the arms race we've seen in 8th between volume of fire and bodies.



   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




3 pt fearless conscripts lol.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






It's funny how half this page's arguments against hordes falls apart when you realize that ork boyz have been cheaper than what they cost now for over a decade and ork players were still running less of them than they are now. A 5th edition 1500 points horde army would have 80-100 boyz and would be considered nigh impossible to kill.
Saying that hordes got cheaper to match the increase in firepower is just flat out wrong.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/15 21:43:31


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




It's funny how half this page's arguments against hordes falls apart when you realize that ork boyz have been cheaper than what they cost now for over a decade and ork players were still running less of them than they are now. A 5th edition 1500 points horde army would have 80-100 boyz and would be considered nigh impossible to kill.
Saying that hordes got cheaper to match the increase in firepower is just flat out wrong.


Also notice the lack of responses to anyone who points out specific reasons as to why Hordes are not the reason the game takes long ...

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






I played hordes in 5th with nids. Hordes had to move more times than they do now (You moved in the movement phase and you move if you don't shoot in the shooting phase). There was well over 20x more core rules too back then that made the game take long, aka Blasts, guessing distance, moral phase steps, rolling for terrain when moving over it, DSing scattering, just scatter dice in general, Tank shocks, and much more (8th has almost no rules compare to 3rd-7th).

I had 90-120 models back then, and I still play with about the same models.

How is it that games take longer now than back then with a lot more movement steps and rules that slowed the game down even more so that it is now, but games are slower now than back then? hmm....

Yes it was 1850pts compare to 2k. But like it was said already, there was still a lot of things on the table. Armies were a lot cheaper, Rhino were 35pts ffs. It was common to have 5 or 7 Drop Pods with 3 other vehicles and still 50 Marines on the table. For my nids 5th compare to 8th I still had Flyrants, 90-100 gants/genestealers, multi hive guard units, its basically the same list with same model other than i actually took Spore Pods b.c they unlike now were worth it (Who dafa thought a 80pt Drop Pod is worth it in nids? for 35pts back in the day you saw a couple, 1 for the Doom at least).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TO ADD: Here is a at least 10yr old game from 5th when Tervigon and Flyrant just got their models album of a game. I even took a Trygon. This is 1850pts

View post on imgur.com


Flyrant
2 Tervigons
Termagants 30 starting on the table (I birth some out thats why it looks like more than 30)
Hormagants 2x20
Genestealers x20
Doom + Pod
Hive guard x6
Gargloyles 2x10
Trygon Prime
1850pts

In 8th that is 1760 without the Doom (He was 90pts) so its 1850

WOW. So my 5th list is the same models and points as my 8th list if i took the same army.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/06/16 01:59:02


   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

yukishiro1 wrote:


But there is a problem with playing armies with different model sizes in GW's ruleset. The basic way GW's rules are set up simply does not allow for a game between a horde of 250 nids and 3 knights to be balanced. There is just too much skew, and GW's mechanics don't handle skew well. It's just the math of how the D6 base hit/wound/save paradigm works out, particularly once you start throwing in rerolls or, even worse, bonuses to hit and especially to wound.

GW's rule work well for roughly equivalent forces. But as soon as the numbers start getting too fundamentally different, it breaks down, and you start having to introduce snowballing mechanics like 6 aggressors shooting 140 shots or morale immune 4-point cultists to try to compensate for one another, and the result is the arms race we've seen in 8th between volume of fire and bodies.



Maybe it's true for 3 vs 250 games. But it certainly isn't with 40-50 vs 100-150 games. I can have two armies at the same level with my collection of models: a 40-50 models SW force and a 100-150 ork one. They'd be basically equally competitive against any TAC list and also against each other.

Aggressors shooting 140 shots isn't an answer to counter some issue with balance, it's a way to sell the new models. SM have a bazillion of kits in their catalogue so any new release must be amazing on battle, otherwise it will be an easy pass. Those aggressors would be good even if they fired "just" 50-60 shots, but then they wouldn't be superior to already existing units that could do the same job for the same points.

If anything I think the high volume of fire is a response on the new mechanics that put things that used to be 3-5 HP (and could be instant killed by a single shot) at 10-18W if not more, plus saves that they didn't have before. An ork trukk, paper thing since the beginning of times, would be extremely tough in 7th and older editions with its current profile. Horde dudes are the same as always instead, some even worse or more expensive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/16 07:22:44


 
   
Made in se
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Sweden

This might be a stupid thing to ask but I have wondered this with dakka for years. Regarding hordes, a lot of you spell it hoards. Is this a mistake or is it like a joke/meme since we are hoarders of plastic minis? I mean it is a decent funny meme if it is intended, but also I cant help to feel this bad chill running down my spine everytime I read it as a consistent misspelling. Please help me...

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






yukishiro1 wrote:
They're all interrelated. Rate of fire is what it is because hordes got such an increase in model number. Hordes got such an increase in model number because they had to balance out primaris and the only way to do so was to deflate points costs for every army besides space marines. But that meant space marines had to get massive rate of fire so they could blow up those huge hordes. Etc etc.

It's all a big spiral that comes back to the decision to redo space marines.



Yeah why back in previous editions when ork boyz were 2ppm cheaper you couldnt field nearly as many.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Southampton, UK

Gitdakka wrote:
This might be a stupid thing to ask but I have wondered this with dakka for years. Regarding hordes, a lot of you spell it hoards. Is this a mistake or is it like a joke/meme since we are hoarders of plastic minis? I mean it is a decent funny meme if it is intended, but also I cant help to feel this bad chill running down my spine everytime I read it as a consistent misspelling. Please help me...


Not any joke as far as I'm aware, just people mis-spelling a homonym. Rogue / rouge is another really common one.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Amishprn86 wrote:
I played hordes in 5th with nids. Hordes had to move more times than they do now (You moved in the movement phase and you move if you don't shoot in the shooting phase). There was well over 20x more core rules too back then that made the game take long, aka Blasts, guessing distance, moral phase steps, rolling for terrain when moving over it, DSing scattering, just scatter dice in general, Tank shocks, and much more (8th has almost no rules compare to 3rd-7th).

I had 90-120 models back then, and I still play with about the same models.

How is it that games take longer now than back then with a lot more movement steps and rules that slowed the game down even more so that it is now, but games are slower now than back then? hmm....

Yes it was 1850pts compare to 2k. But like it was said already, there was still a lot of things on the table. Armies were a lot cheaper, Rhino were 35pts ffs. It was common to have 5 or 7 Drop Pods with 3 other vehicles and still 50 Marines on the table. For my nids 5th compare to 8th I still had Flyrants, 90-100 gants/genestealers, multi hive guard units, its basically the same list with same model other than i actually took Spore Pods b.c they unlike now were worth it (Who dafa thought a 80pt Drop Pod is worth it in nids? for 35pts back in the day you saw a couple, 1 for the Doom at least).


a) 90-120 models isn't horde. Double that for real horde.
b) models move easily 4 times in a turn. Then if there's psychic spells and/or stratagems it can easily be 7 times.
c) rules might look simple but they are not quick in 8th
d) rerolls and ridiculous amount of shots. In 5th ed there wasn't gun firing 40 times in shooting phase. There wasn't unit that takes in average almost 200 dice roll all told(plus opponent's save rolls) to sort out.

50 marines is tiny army in these days. And 90-120 tyranids isn't even horde.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
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tneva82 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
I played hordes in 5th with nids. Hordes had to move more times than they do now (You moved in the movement phase and you move if you don't shoot in the shooting phase). There was well over 20x more core rules too back then that made the game take long, aka Blasts, guessing distance, moral phase steps, rolling for terrain when moving over it, DSing scattering, just scatter dice in general, Tank shocks, and much more (8th has almost no rules compare to 3rd-7th).

I had 90-120 models back then, and I still play with about the same models.

How is it that games take longer now than back then with a lot more movement steps and rules that slowed the game down even more so that it is now, but games are slower now than back then? hmm....

Yes it was 1850pts compare to 2k. But like it was said already, there was still a lot of things on the table. Armies were a lot cheaper, Rhino were 35pts ffs. It was common to have 5 or 7 Drop Pods with 3 other vehicles and still 50 Marines on the table. For my nids 5th compare to 8th I still had Flyrants, 90-100 gants/genestealers, multi hive guard units, its basically the same list with same model other than i actually took Spore Pods b.c they unlike now were worth it (Who dafa thought a 80pt Drop Pod is worth it in nids? for 35pts back in the day you saw a couple, 1 for the Doom at least).


a) 90-120 models isn't horde. Double that for real horde.
b) models move easily 4 times in a turn. Then if there's psychic spells and/or stratagems it can easily be 7 times.
c) rules might look simple but they are not quick in 8th
d) rerolls and ridiculous amount of shots. In 5th ed there wasn't gun firing 40 times in shooting phase. There wasn't unit that takes in average almost 200 dice roll all told(plus opponent's save rolls) to sort out.

50 marines is tiny army in these days. And 90-120 tyranids isn't even horde.


By your terms 120 models isn't a horde. But to me it is. Also Those Tervigons poop out 20+ models turn 1 and maybe more turn 2.

On point bcd, thats my point. There were more movements on average per game turn in hordes than in 8th (even in kraken Nids with a Swarmlord you can move 2 units a 2nd time, but in 5th all units moved a second time b.c you had to roll runs in a different phase), yes rules are nothing the same, DUH, 5th had more stupid rules that slowed the game down as i said, and correct 8th has insane amount of re-rolls thats my point. When things like Aggressors are on the table with re-rolls no horde will role as many dice.

My point is that my 5th game is easily done in 2hrs, my 8th not easily in 3hrs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/16 10:39:00


   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Not to mention you're neglecting the cost of the units and CP getting them full reroll hits and reroll 1s to wound.


Yeah I actually think we are glossing over this, and how bonkers it is that space marines can get a full reroll to hit and reroll 1s to wound for 118pts+2cp. To my knowledge, nobody else can do that outside of using what are generally 200+ point named characters. And it's certainly relevant given that we are going into an edition where gw has capped -1 to hit at 1 AND tried to solve many problems with lethality by throwing around more -1 to hits. If "Dense Terrain" is -1 to hit, which from their description it really seems to be, that will make your typical space marine go from 88% to hit down alllll the way to 75% to hit, while an ork will have his shooting chance cut from 39% to hit down to 19%.

This is why people are pointing at the new cover systems, the new blast rules, etc, and saying they're looking to make the currently best army in the game even stronger. Marines indirectly or directly benefit from nearly every rule previewed so far, and yet we know from the designers talking about points adjustments that marines are not seeing much of a price hike at all - 1 squad of dudes in a full 2k army.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
 
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