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yukishiro1 wrote:
Most overwatch suppression is/ not based on dice. It is actually one of the least dice-based parts of the game. It's mostly warlord traits, stratagems, and terrain manipulation. Psychic powers are the only part that is really dependent on dice to any significant degree.

The charge roll itself is about 20x as likely to screw a combat army as overwatch if you're talking about the impact of dice.

Unless you have something in mind, pretty much all the above options amount to "this unit is immune to overwatch".
So if they make a successful charge - which is based on dice - they get around it. Because your other units can follow them in.
But if they fail, and they will because of luck/statistics whatever you want to call the reality of dice, you are back eating overwatch.

Unless you can someone have your whole army charge from outside of LOS.

I'm not really sure how to discuss this without luck, because that's the nature of the game. Rolling 6s on key weapons - or getting a disproportionate number - is a function of luck. It obviously won't happen every game - and is no doubt counterbalanced by all the games across the world where people get disproportionately few. But in those games with the 6s overwatch can easily skew a game, and this seems undesirable on an ability which is essentially automatic and free.

A mechanic which does nothing most of the time but occasionally (and not that occasionally) has massive upside is a bad one. Its not the same as picking fringe cases of shooting/assault, where the outcome is far more often going to be normal.

And if you get a +1T on all your models but the opponent gets +2S on all his weapons, you could say "the +1T is still good for me!" But I don't think it really means much. You play with the entire rules package.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

People keep mentioning "whatabout Centurions and Aggressors", but that's literally two units. Losing it about a rule because of two units PROBABLY means there's more going on to those two units. You know what would've helped? You can't reroll Overwatch shots. How elegant a solution.

Those are not the only units, but they exemplify the problem the best.

I never charged Centurions or Aggressors - I shot them instead, because strategy.

You're probably not one of the guys who frequently posts about how 8th offered no tactics and strategy- I have a nasty habit of attributing arguments to the wrong people. But this would be an example of one of those things that made me do a doubletake every time someone said there were no meaningful choices in the game. The thing about meaningful choices is you have to choose to make them, and anyone who ever charged centurions or aggressors was choosing not to make a meaningful choice.

About the OW changes in general, I'm ambivalent. It will really hurt some of my favourite units and sub-factions. At the same time, it will really help other units and factions I like. Sacred Rose, move over, Bloody Rose, let's make some more room for you. Our poor Banshees, who most on Dakka thought were useless anyway, are now really one of the worst units in the game.

The other thing that's a bit frustrating for me was that I always used Cityfight Terrain rules and enough LOS blocking terrain that in my games, melee never was at a disadvantage in the first place. While this change might have been necessary for people who weren't willing to solve their own problems, it wasn't really necessary for me. RIP Sacred Rose... There I go, solving my own problems again.

For GW's bottom line, this means they don't get to sell me Jain Zar and Banshees, because those are dedicated models, not just a painting choice.

PenitentJake wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

People keep mentioning "whatabout Centurions and Aggressors", but that's literally two units. Losing it about a rule because of two units PROBABLY means there's more going on to those two units. You know what would've helped? You can't reroll Overwatch shots. How elegant a solution.

Those are not the only units, but they exemplify the problem the best.

I never charged Centurions or Aggressors - I shot them instead, because strategy.

You're probably not one of the guys who frequently posts about how 8th offered no tactics and strategy- I have a nasty habit of attributing arguments to the wrong people. But this would be an example of one of those things that made me do a doubletake every time someone said there were no meaningful choices in the game. The thing about meaningful choices is you have to choose to make them, and anyone who ever charged centurions or aggressors was choosing not to make a meaningful choice.

About the OW changes in general, I'm ambivalent. It will really hurt some of my favourite units and sub-factions. At the same time, it will really help other units and factions I like. Sacred Rose, move over, Bloody Rose, let's make some more room for you. Our poor Banshees, who most on Dakka thought were useless anyway, are now really one of the worst units in the game.

The other thing that's a bit frustrating for me was that I always used Cityfight Terrain rules and enough LOS blocking terrain that in my games, melee never was at a disadvantage in the first place. While this change might have been necessary for people who weren't willing to solve their own problems, it wasn't really necessary for me. RIP Sacred Rose... There I go, solving my own problems again.

For GW's bottom line, this means they don't get to sell me Jain Zar and Banshees, because those are dedicated models, not just a painting choice.

How dare players want to have a game system that works as-written! The greedy bastards!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

People keep mentioning "whatabout Centurions and Aggressors", but that's literally two units. Losing it about a rule because of two units PROBABLY means there's more going on to those two units. You know what would've helped? You can't reroll Overwatch shots. How elegant a solution.

Those are not the only units, but they exemplify the problem the best.

Well go ahead and name the problem units then because that's all.i hear about or even care about to be frank.

An invictor warsuit will throw 6+2d6 shots plus d6 grenade shots that will get buffed by the blast rules.

A redemptor dread can throw 18 shots plus d6 grenade shots.

The ubiquitous 2cp Chapter Master Babysitter is a huge part of the problem, but at this point we may as well start calling Space Marines a horde army. Hordes o' dice.

Tyel wrote:


A mechanic which does nothing most of the time but occasionally (and not that occasionally) has massive upside is a bad one. Its not the same as picking fringe cases of shooting/assault, where the outcome is far more often going to be normal.

Well ok...but if you're looking at it that way, the overwatch change doesn't fix this substantially. They can still pay 1CP and 1/36 times your opponent's twin lascannon nails both hits. The one thing it does do is gives you more control over which unit gets overwatched, in that you can throw in some chaff first to eat the overwatch, and the overwatch is done whether that unit fails its charge roll or not.

But short of that, these changes just make overwatch even more swingy. The more dice you're rolling, the more likely the impact is to even out. By limiting it to once per phase, you actually increase the potential for skew, even at the same time you're lowering it's overall impact.

And we don't even know how many units are going to have built in "free overwatch" rules. If this was the ONLY way to overwatch, I'd be more likely to agree the change are significant. But the stream kinda makes it sound like a bunch of units are just going to be able to overwatch free anyway - and, knowing GW, it'll probably be units that are good at it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

People keep mentioning "whatabout Centurions and Aggressors", but that's literally two units. Losing it about a rule because of two units PROBABLY means there's more going on to those two units. You know what would've helped? You can't reroll Overwatch shots. How elegant a solution.

Those are not the only units, but they exemplify the problem the best.

Well go ahead and name the problem units then because that's all.i hear about or even care about to be frank.

Err..T'au for one. I can push a garbage unit in their face. If they don't O/W and I make it then can't O/W. If they do then my more dangerous units are free to run in.

Any Iron Hands vehicle / dreadnought with their own damned T'au strat.

Anything with D2 that my Scarabs want to charge like Ravagers backfield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

You're probably not one of the guys who frequently posts about how 8th offered no tactics and strategy- I have a nasty habit of attributing arguments to the wrong people.

Your bad habit strikes again.

Almost no one charged Centurions, because it is suicide barring an overwatch blocking ability...and not even then was it wise (even pushing a T8 tank into them doesn't do well). I believe there are tactics available in this game. Charging Centurions was never a real choice. Now if I can get the proper units in position I have a no overwatch opportunity to exploit.

Hankovitch wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

People keep mentioning "whatabout Centurions and Aggressors", but that's literally two units. Losing it about a rule because of two units PROBABLY means there's more going on to those two units. You know what would've helped? You can't reroll Overwatch shots. How elegant a solution.

Those are not the only units, but they exemplify the problem the best.

Well go ahead and name the problem units then because that's all.i hear about or even care about to be frank.

An invictor warsuit will throw 6+2d6 shots plus d6 grenade shots that will get buffed by the blast rules.

A redemptor dread can throw 18 shots plus d6 grenade shots.

The ubiquitous 2cp Chapter Master Babysitter is a huge part of the problem, but at this point we may as well start calling Space Marines a horde army. Hordes o' dice.

So therein lies the problem: rerolls.

Spore mines can finally charge!

I think this rule is great. I don't even think that because this makes melee armies better. I just love this rule for getting rid of all the junk overwatch shots, like someone said earlier, a bunch of st4 v. a knight, or even the single commander who gets charged, or the small remnants of squads late game firing meaningless shots. This rule eliminates a bunch of meaningless actions, and I think it is great.

 xeen wrote:
I think this rule is great. I don't even think that because this makes melee armies better. I just love this rule for getting rid of all the junk overwatch shots, like someone said earlier, a bunch of st4 v. a knight, or even the single commander who gets charged, or the small remnants of squads late game firing meaningless shots. This rule eliminates a bunch of meaningless actions, and I think it is great.

It also puts a CP drain on marines who have a lot more high quality shots and rerolls.

The game is getting a really good shake up.

Seems like more strategic overwatch. Good.

Surprised not to see any talk about the other big thing in this article, the ability to counter-charge out of reserves. Finally slow bulky melee units in primary shooting armies have a genuine purpose.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Surprised not to see any talk about the other big thing in this article, the ability to counter-charge out of reserves. Finally slow bulky melee units in primary shooting armies have a genuine purpose.

Only from your own zone. Pretty rare, but nice to have.

Now I'm most curious about Fallback and Morale. As Scotsman noted with Aircraft fallback not an issue can Fallback go to CP? If Fallback goes to CP then protracted combats and morale and GW's mention of attrition makes a whole lot more sense...

And nobody has mentioned or noted that Look out Sir is back as a rule?

 AndrewC wrote:
And nobody has mentioned or noted that Look out Sir is back as a rule?

I was trying to remember if someone got a bespoke 'Look Out, Sir' rule. It would be nice to have back with the proliferation of snipers.

People seem to be getting excited - but I think Look out Sir is just going to be "the character targeting rules".

Admittedly things could change with that - but I wouldn't bet on it too much.

 AndrewC wrote:
And nobody has mentioned or noted that Look out Sir is back as a rule?

I believe that's already the name of what we consider "Character Protection."

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Surprised not to see any talk about the other big thing in this article, the ability to counter-charge out of reserves. Finally slow bulky melee units in primary shooting armies have a genuine purpose.

Only from your own zone. Pretty rare, but nice to have.

Now I'm most curious about Fallback and Morale. As Scotsman noted with Aircraft fallback not an issue can Fallback go to CP? If Fallback goes to CP then protracted combats and morale and GW's mention of attrition makes a whole lot more sense...

As would their mention of the new morale mechanics helping Night Lords. Because even if a new fallback strategem would allow you to fallback through enemy models, well, We Have Come For You......

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Surprised not to see any talk about the other big thing in this article, the ability to counter-charge out of reserves. Finally slow bulky melee units in primary shooting armies have a genuine purpose.

Only from your own zone. Pretty rare, but nice to have.

Now I'm most curious about Fallback and Morale. As Scotsman noted with Aircraft fallback not an issue can Fallback go to CP? If Fallback goes to CP then protracted combats and morale and GW's mention of attrition makes a whole lot more sense...

...As does many of the price increases for cheap chaff units, which would be MUCH more effective in preventing non-vehicle non-monster units from making use of their guns.

I'd like to add Transports to what I'm curious about as well. IMO, disembarkation after movement (with no ability to move the unit afterwards) should be a standard rule for transports, and would bring back proper mechanized armies in a big way and add even more reason to maneuver, particularly if you're much more concerned about getting tied up as a static gunline.

8th ed, with better terrain rules, better transport rules, no time-consuming overwatch, smaller armies, better missions and fewer CP wombo-combos? Seems pretty good to me...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Surprised not to see any talk about the other big thing in this article, the ability to counter-charge out of reserves. Finally slow bulky melee units in primary shooting armies have a genuine purpose.

Only from your own zone. Pretty rare, but nice to have.

Now I'm most curious about Fallback and Morale. As Scotsman noted with Aircraft fallback not an issue can Fallback go to CP? If Fallback goes to CP then protracted combats and morale and GW's mention of attrition makes a whole lot more sense...

As would their mention of the new morale mechanics helping Night Lords. Because even if a new fallback strategem would allow you to fallback through enemy models, well, We Have Come For You......

I just hope the +1/-1 cap also doesnt apply to LD. Death Jesters would be looking pretttttty silly!

This change to overwatch is really good in my opinion. Overwatch was so oppressive vs Tau and Ironhands, to name a few, that it was often better to not assault them to deny them getting a second shooting phase and just bubble wrap the objectives to hold on to points for as long as you can. If they split up, or put a few things out of position, then you could play the melee game with them, but if they were castled up, as was often the case, the only thing you could really do is assault with something that denies overwatch, or just sit there and eat firepower turn after turn because assaulting them was out of the question.

This also slows down and prevents the "burn them all" cp plays on turn one. Players will, I would imagine, want to spend some CP, and then save several for later on in the game to allow them some command rerolls and some overwatch for later.

I'm excited about this change. I play Tyranids, Blood Angels, Ad mech, Space Wolves, Demons, Chaos and Chaos knights, and when I read that update I tried to position myself mentally to try to look at this objectively, to see if I could see reasons that poke holes in this, but I really couldn't find any, (though I admit, I tend to favor melee armies in general).

I don't want to dance on the graves of the Tau and ironhands players out there (or those Baneblades with defensive gunners) but I think, if anything, this change may push people to try new things and see what they like. Just the changes to Tau sept alone may mean that FTGG isn't the end all be all of Tau armies anymore, and maybe other or custom septs will be chosen?

the_scotsman wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
And nobody has mentioned or noted that Look out Sir is back as a rule?

I believe that's already the name of what we consider "Character Protection."

Nope, it used to be, but a rule by that name has never existed in 8th. Which means that the rule is being reintroduced in 9th, under some unknown form.

Would have it be better / simpler if overwatch rules was revamped as roll 2d6 and then overwatch
if charge successful=
.charge roll is under 6-7 -> no overwatch - not enough time for charged unit to react
.charge roll is 6-7 or more -> overwatch - enough reacting time

noob guess / interrogation ?

never had an opponent unit charge something my with enough shots charge, unless they could ingore overwatch. for 5 man squads it was mostly irrelevant, if free rules. small nerf, but hardly worth the worry for me.

It does make IH seem strange though. If they can use their chapter tactic only on 1 unit and only 1 CP, it gets a lot worse.

Krylon wrote:
Would have it be better / simpler if overwatch rules was revamped as roll 2d6 and then overwatch
if charge successful=
.charge roll is under 6-7 -> no overwatch - not enough time for charged unit to react
.charge roll is 6-7 or more -> overwatch - enough reacting time

noob guess / interrogation ?

No. Granting free power to a unit outside their normal turn structure just for their opponent having charged without expending any resource was just silly, and worse silly and time consuming as you had to roll dice for every single one of your guns.

retracted

Karol wrote:
never had an opponent unit charge something my with enough shots charge, unless they could ingore overwatch. for 5 man squads it was mostly irrelevant, if free rules. small nerf, but hardly worth the worry for me.

It does make IH seem strange though. If they can use their chapter tactic only on 1 unit and only 1 CP, it gets a lot worse.

I mean, until you realize that they have another half of their chapter tactic...the 6+ FNP, which several other factions have as their chapter tactic but WITHOUT the bonus overwatch thing.

...and also don't get doctrines

...or superdoctrines

...or their own psychic powers

...or 6 relics 6 strats etc etc etc etc.

I think the Iron Hands will be FINE compared to other factions' abilities.

 Togusa wrote:
Wow this is dumb. Overwatch is now CP locked and limited.

Found the T'au player!

the_scotsman wrote:

Karol wrote:
never had an opponent unit charge something my with enough shots charge, unless they could ingore overwatch. for 5 man squads it was mostly irrelevant, if free rules. small nerf, but hardly worth the worry for me.

It does make IH seem strange though. If they can use their chapter tactic only on 1 unit and only 1 CP, it gets a lot worse.

I mean, until you realize that they have another half of their chapter tactic...the 6+ FNP, which several other factions have as their chapter tactic but WITHOUT the bonus overwatch thing.

...and also don't get doctrines

...or superdoctrines

...or their own psychic powers

...or 6 relics 6 strats etc etc etc etc.

I think the Iron Hands will be FINE compared to other factions' abilities.

But it doesn't make them the best. Specialy in a low CP enviroment. Who cares if about weaker armies when they picked IH to be the best. That is like telling an Inari player that he shouldn't worry, because lets say DA are in much worse situation, if he just takes his models and plays them as plain alaitoc elder.
No one should compare themselfs to those are the lower then them, it makes no sense and hinders growth.

Karol wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Karol wrote:
never had an opponent unit charge something my with enough shots charge, unless they could ingore overwatch. for 5 man squads it was mostly irrelevant, if free rules. small nerf, but hardly worth the worry for me.

It does make IH seem strange though. If they can use their chapter tactic only on 1 unit and only 1 CP, it gets a lot worse.

I mean, until you realize that they have another half of their chapter tactic...the 6+ FNP, which several other factions have as their chapter tactic but WITHOUT the bonus overwatch thing.

...and also don't get doctrines

...or superdoctrines

...or their own psychic powers

...or 6 relics 6 strats etc etc etc etc.

I think the Iron Hands will be FINE compared to other factions' abilities.

But it doesn't make them the best. Specialy in a low CP enviroment. Who cares if about weaker armies when they picked IH to be the best. That is like telling an Inari player that he shouldn't worry, because lets say DA are in much worse situation, if he just takes his models and plays them as plain alaitoc elder.
No one should compare themselfs to those are the lower then them, it makes no sense and hinders growth.

I'm struggling to understand the point you're trying to make here. IH were top dog. This takes a bit of steam out of them, but they still have plenty of advantages.