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Thanks for the tips on rolling those units back. Once I get a chance to do some of the conversions, I might post them up for input.

We did the same thing because our chaos player is using the 3.5 chaos dex but wanted to bring in his hell drake.
so we took the points cost from the 7th edition rules and then used the 3.5 chaos codex vehicle upgrade rules and stats.

Since it was already demonically possessed it gained the immunity to stunned/shaken rule as per the 3.5 codex then he paid the points to give it parasitic possession so it could repair damaged weapons ( we disallowed mutated hull because adding to the armor was counter to the fact it is a flyer).

I think my favourite editions, at least currently, are Rogue Trader and 3rd

RT because it's an oddball wargame-RPG fusion with neat stuff like robots and powerfields for everyone and a very open feeling to the background, it just isn't as set-in-stone gothic as later editions. I really like the more generic sci-fi stuff. I like space marines in campaign-specific camo! The whole book breathes DIY which is imho a very important part of the hobby. I don't know that it's the smoothest game experience but it's a very EXTRA game. The Realm of Chaos books don't hurt, either. I would really like to see a computer game based on this era because it would take care of a lot, if not outright all, of the weaknesses. There's a reason we invented computers to be good at fiddly book-keeping.

I like 3rd edition mainly because of all the material they did in fact make for it. Cityfight rules, vehicle design rules, the creature feature, generally a fair bunch of good Chapter Approved material. I guess a lot of it was mimicking things you could do with the RT rules that they skipped in 2nd ed but w/e. In hindsight I also appreciate 3rd ed for how important it was to shaping the background. AFAIK there wasn't a lot on the whole deal behind the Horus Heresy before the Index Astartes series. The shift in art style from 2nd ed was major, too. You would hardly think that it was a mere decade between RT and 3rd ed. The tau were introduced, the necrons were majorly expanded upon... Really, there was a lot going on and it's a foundational edition for modern 40k.

 aphyon wrote:

 flakpanzer wrote:
Really appreciate that people are still playing and enjoying older editions.

I would love to take some of the units from and later editions (some flyers and even Knights), and try and integrate them back to 5th edition. Having just gotten back into trying to play 5th, I don't think I have the overall familiarity with the system differences to do so. At least not yet.

It is actually quite easy.

USRs from 5th take precedent in the rules but otherwise take the points cost from the new edition units and use the 5th edition upgrade stats and points if they existed.

In the case of knights from 7th ed, it is super easy-they are a "light" superheavy like a macharius-so 1 void shield and 2 structure points. as a "superheavy they can split fire as per normal rules in 5th.

Flyer rules from 7th work fine, we just augmented them a bit by using a mix of the 5th edition FW flyer rules to make them a little less durable in some way to balance out hard hard they are to hit. and more immersive. returning the 12" range penalties, needing 6+ to hit (for non AA) and only allowing jump units to assault them is countered by the immobilization result causing a crash instead of a "vector lock"

Didn't they come out with more formal flyer rules in the 5th right before the 6th? I think that it was an Imperial Armour by I certain could be mistaken.

TinyLegions wrote:

 aphyon wrote:

 flakpanzer wrote:
Really appreciate that people are still playing and enjoying older editions.

I would love to take some of the units from and later editions (some flyers and even Knights), and try and integrate them back to 5th edition. Having just gotten back into trying to play 5th, I don't think I have the overall familiarity with the system differences to do so. At least not yet.

It is actually quite easy.

USRs from 5th take precedent in the rules but otherwise take the points cost from the new edition units and use the 5th edition upgrade stats and points if they existed.

In the case of knights from 7th ed, it is super easy-they are a "light" superheavy like a macharius-so 1 void shield and 2 structure points. as a "superheavy they can split fire as per normal rules in 5th.

Flyer rules from 7th work fine, we just augmented them a bit by using a mix of the 5th edition FW flyer rules to make them a little less durable in some way to balance out hard hard they are to hit. and more immersive. returning the 12" range penalties, needing 6+ to hit (for non AA) and only allowing jump units to assault them is countered by the immobilization result causing a crash instead of a "vector lock"

Didn't they come out with more formal flyer rules in the 5th right before the 6th? I think that it was an Imperial Armour by I certain could be mistaken.

The initial Flyer type rules were in 3e Imperial Armour. The "modern" Flyer rules set up for a normal-size table (without the range penalty, and with 18-36" movement instead of 36"-infinte movement) came out in 6th.

Did the Imperial Armour rules come out before, after or at the same time as the VDR flyers? Imperial Armour is a definite blind spot in my 40K history, I only broadly know that it had FW stuff in it.

Rosebuddy wrote:
Did the Imperial Armour rules come out before, after or at the same time as the VDR flyers? Imperial Armour is a definite blind spot in my 40K history, I only broadly know that it had FW stuff in it.

Around the same time, I think? The original Imperial Armour book was 2000, and the VDR rules were in Chapter Approved 2001, so must have been published in White Dwarf shortly before that.

Didn't they come out with more formal flyer rules in the 5th right before the 6th? I think that it was an Imperial Armour by I certain could be mistaken.

As noted above the original flyer rules came out in 3rd. it wasn't until 6th that they were put into normal (non-permission) main line GW rules for standard game play. and slightly improved in 7th

In 5th they put many flyers into the game as up armored fast skimmers because GW had just brought over many of the FW kits to plastics like the valkyrie.

The good things about the old flyer rules we include in our hybrid combination with 7th. the problem with the old rules is that it really broke the turn flow. in the original FW rules your flyers arrive during your opponents movement phase, he then gets to dedicate shooting at them and then on your next turn they get to return fire/finish their attack run(for bombs and the like).

Yes, I'm going to make a bunch of those stupid cactuses too.

great work! now you need some killer bases to put them on. secret weapon are eventually coming out with the injected color bases but i also really love the micro art scenics if you don't mind a bit of extra painting


They have the regular wraithstone for normal eldar but perhaps dark temple may be more in line with your minis.

https://shop.microartstudio.com/en/179-bases

 aphyon wrote:
great work! now you need some killer bases to put them on. secret weapon are eventually coming out with the injected color bases but i also really love the micro art scenics if you don't mind a bit of extra painting


They have the regular wraithstone for normal eldar but perhaps dark temple may be more in line with your minis.

https://shop.microartstudio.com/en/179-bases

I'm familiar with their stuff, have a bunch myself for other games. Nope, these guys are goblin green only, as are their soon to be painted BT buddies.

May have something to do with this:

I find your lack of flock disturbing.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I find your lack of flock disturbing.

Sand and drybrush my dude, sand and drybrush.

Ktulhut wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
great work! now you need some killer bases to put them on. secret weapon are eventually coming out with the injected color bases but i also really love the micro art scenics if you don't mind a bit of extra painting


They have the regular wraithstone for normal eldar but perhaps dark temple may be more in line with your minis.

https://shop.microartstudio.com/en/179-bases

I'm familiar with their stuff, have a bunch myself for other games. Nope, these guys are goblin green only, as are their soon to be painted BT buddies.

May have something to do with this:

Brings a tear to my eye every time I see that box. Even better when I see people who weren't even alive when that set was released who are actively chasing down the contents.

BaconCatBug wrote:I find your lack of flock disturbing.

Wholeheartedly agreed.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the sand/paint green/drybrush bone or yellow method, it's literally what they advise in the intro to the 3e rulebook. But I'll admit the camera flash is not doing it any favours.

 Ktulhut wrote:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the sand/paint green/drybrush bone or yellow method, it's literally what they advise in the intro to the 3e rulebook. But I'll admit the camera flash is not doing it any favours.

Goblin Green bases with Green Flock is the One True Basing Method. Anything else is HERESY!

Really stale, guys.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

TinyLegions wrote:

 aphyon wrote:

 flakpanzer wrote:
Really appreciate that people are still playing and enjoying older editions.

I would love to take some of the units from and later editions (some flyers and even Knights), and try and integrate them back to 5th edition. Having just gotten back into trying to play 5th, I don't think I have the overall familiarity with the system differences to do so. At least not yet.

It is actually quite easy.

USRs from 5th take precedent in the rules but otherwise take the points cost from the new edition units and use the 5th edition upgrade stats and points if they existed.

In the case of knights from 7th ed, it is super easy-they are a "light" superheavy like a macharius-so 1 void shield and 2 structure points. as a "superheavy they can split fire as per normal rules in 5th.

Flyer rules from 7th work fine, we just augmented them a bit by using a mix of the 5th edition FW flyer rules to make them a little less durable in some way to balance out hard hard they are to hit. and more immersive. returning the 12" range penalties, needing 6+ to hit (for non AA) and only allowing jump units to assault them is countered by the immobilization result causing a crash instead of a "vector lock"

Didn't they come out with more formal flyer rules in the 5th right before the 6th? I think that it was an Imperial Armour by I certain could be mistaken.

The initial Flyer type rules were in 3e Imperial Armour. The "modern" Flyer rules set up for a normal-size table (without the range penalty, and with 18-36" movement instead of 36"-infinte movement) came out in 6th.

I am sure that most of our memories are hazy from that time, but here is what I remember. Blood Angels got their Storm Raven sometime between the IG book and the 6th edition, then about a year ahead of the new edition there was either an IA that had the new Space Marine Storm Talon's and Storm Raven's, or there may have been an errata because I seem to recall that those two were available for sale before the 6th dropped. Those two flyers were old news, and everyone was all a tither about how we now have flack missiles to use for flyers. I did want to ask what exactly was the main difference in rules between the older flyer rules and the 6th, which is briefly discussed, but I though that there was an iteration in between what you read in the IA books and what you see in the 6th.

On another note, I do like the general rule philosophy that aphyon is suggesting. Some good ideas there.

TinyLegions wrote:
...I am sure that most of our memories are hazy from that time, but here is what I remember. Blood Angels got their Storm Raven sometime between the IG book and the 6th edition, then about a year ahead of the new edition there was either an IA that had the new Space Marine Storm Talon's and Storm Raven's, or there may have been an errata because I seem to recall that those two were available for sale before the 6th dropped. Those two flyers were old news, and everyone was all a tither about how we now have flack missiles to use for flyers. I did want to ask what exactly was the main difference in rules between the older flyer rules and the 6th, which is briefly discussed, but I though that there was an iteration in between what you read in the IA books and what you see in the 6th.

On another note, I do like the general rule philosophy that aphyon is suggesting. Some good ideas there.

I don't think there were intermediate steps; it went straight from Apocalypse to 6e. The Stormraven was released for GK/BA in 5th as a Fast Skimmer (which is why it has plastic GK/BA icons in the kit), but got put in the SM book in 6th. The Storm Talon didn't exist before 6th. You may be thinking of Imperial Armour Aeronautica, which was a patch book released in early 6th to bring Forge World aircraft and AA units into line with the 6e standard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:
...Brings a tear to my eye every time I see that box. Even better when I see people who weren't even alive when that set was released who are actively chasing down the contents...

People actively chase down classic Dark Eldar? I had a bunch of those minis back in the day, and I dearly hope to never see anything so flimsy ever again.

TinyLegions wrote:
I am sure that most of our memories are hazy from that time, but here is what I remember. Blood Angels got their Storm Raven sometime between the IG book and the 6th edition, then about a year ahead of the new edition there was either an IA that had the new Space Marine Storm Talon's and Storm Raven's, or there may have been an errata because I seem to recall that those two were available for sale before the 6th dropped

Blood Angels and Grey Knights had storm ravens in their 5e codex (and 5e necrons had night scythes and doom scythes).
The June 2012 white dwarf had rules for the Stormtalon and three ork flyers. They were all fast skimmers in 5e but released right before 6e.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

TinyLegions wrote:
...I am sure that most of our memories are hazy from that time, but here is what I remember. Blood Angels got their Storm Raven sometime between the IG book and the 6th edition, then about a year ahead of the new edition there was either an IA that had the new Space Marine Storm Talon's and Storm Raven's, or there may have been an errata because I seem to recall that those two were available for sale before the 6th dropped. Those two flyers were old news, and everyone was all a tither about how we now have flack missiles to use for flyers. I did want to ask what exactly was the main difference in rules between the older flyer rules and the 6th, which is briefly discussed, but I though that there was an iteration in between what you read in the IA books and what you see in the 6th.

On another note, I do like the general rule philosophy that aphyon is suggesting. Some good ideas there.

I don't think there were intermediate steps; it went straight from Apocalypse to 6e. The Stormraven was released for GK/BA in 5th as a Fast Skimmer (which is why it has plastic GK/BA icons in the kit), but got put in the SM book in 6th. The Storm Talon didn't exist before 6th. You may be thinking of Imperial Armour Aeronautica, which was a patch book released in early 6th to bring Forge World aircraft and AA units into line with the 6e standard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:
...Brings a tear to my eye every time I see that box. Even better when I see people who weren't even alive when that set was released who are actively chasing down the contents...

People actively chase down classic Dark Eldar? I had a bunch of those minis back in the day, and I dearly hope to never see anything so flimsy ever again.

More the book and cheat sheets. Terrain is nice as well

On another note, I do like the general rule philosophy that aphyon is suggesting. Some good ideas there.

I know there are a number of players who hate the fact that flyers and superheavies are in the normal sized game. in those cases you could always go back to treating, the aircraft at least, as fast skimmers. but i think it really takes away from what it adds to the game. i like the inclusion of dedicated AA platforms that leads to my next point.

FWs original premise that you "get permission/give your opponent a heads up" that you want to bring flyers/super heavies was the right approach for casual play environments. you still needed to have an answer for them even if they were not as powerful/durable as they became in later editions (saw a guard rough rider squad with demo charged take out a baneblade in a single assault with the old superheavy damage table from 5th/apocalypse MKI)

Bringing back a bit of that vulnerability in conjunction with the newer rules seemed like a fair balance to our group.

 aphyon wrote:

i like the inclusion of dedicated AA platforms that leads to my next point.

That was always a tricky one from 6th onwards with flyers and superheavies. 3-5e was paper-scissors-stone, whereas 6e onwards was a much more unevenly distributed rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock - higher potential to guess wrong and fail at the listbuilding stage.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

TinyLegions wrote:
...I am sure that most of our memories are hazy from that time, but here is what I remember. Blood Angels got their Storm Raven sometime between the IG book and the 6th edition, then about a year ahead of the new edition there was either an IA that had the new Space Marine Storm Talon's and Storm Raven's, or there may have been an errata because I seem to recall that those two were available for sale before the 6th dropped. Those two flyers were old news, and everyone was all a tither about how we now have flack missiles to use for flyers. I did want to ask what exactly was the main difference in rules between the older flyer rules and the 6th, which is briefly discussed, but I though that there was an iteration in between what you read in the IA books and what you see in the 6th.

On another note, I do like the general rule philosophy that aphyon is suggesting. Some good ideas there.

I don't think there were intermediate steps; it went straight from Apocalypse to 6e. The Stormraven was released for GK/BA in 5th as a Fast Skimmer (which is why it has plastic GK/BA icons in the kit), but got put in the SM book in 6th. The Storm Talon didn't exist before 6th. You may be thinking of Imperial Armour Aeronautica, which was a patch book released in early 6th to bring Forge World aircraft and AA units into line with the 6e standard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:
...Brings a tear to my eye every time I see that box. Even better when I see people who weren't even alive when that set was released who are actively chasing down the contents...

People actively chase down classic Dark Eldar? I had a bunch of those minis back in the day, and I dearly hope to never see anything so flimsy ever again.

That may be what I am thinking about. I do know that you don't see official flyer rules for Space Marines until the 6th, and what I was thinking was an IA book.

A.T. wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
i like the inclusion of dedicated AA platforms that leads to my next point.

That was always a tricky one from 6th onwards with flyers and superheavies. 3-5e was paper-scissors-stone, whereas 6e onwards was a much more unevenly distributed rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock - higher potential to guess wrong and fail at the listbuilding stage.

Sometimes. To fix it you'd want to reduce superheavies' invulnerability to anti-armour tactics (make damage results do something to them, for instance), introduce more dual-purpose AA platforms so you can take an AA tool that doesn't handicap you if the other guy doesn't take any planes (free flakk missiles for MLs, more things like the Helical Targeting Array on Dreadnaughts), weaken planes' defenses so you can engage them more effectively with more weapons, restrict the use of superheavies in small games via the 30k 25% rule, and be very careful about introducing spammable cheap superheavies with Invulnerable saves (dump the Knights Codex and stick them in AdMech as a LoW).

(My signature has a more detailed link to my attempt at implementing this.)

i don't think knights are that much of a problem if you use the old superheavy damage chart with 2 structure points and replace the invul with a single void shield (AV12, 5+ regeneration). it would bring them into line with the other baby superheavies like the macharius at roughly the same points level.

The AA problem is also solved when you go back to letting those dedicated AA units decide on which mode they are firing(air VS ground) at the start of the shooting phase....and yes flakk missiles should not cost extra any more than having to pay more for krak VS frag.

 aphyon wrote:
i don't think knights are that much of a problem if you use the old superheavy damage chart with 2 structure points and replace the invul with a single void shield (AV12, 5+ regeneration). it would bring them into line with the other baby superheavies like the macharius at roughly the same points level...

I like the directional nature of the ion shield, though. It forces you to spread out and maneuver, and requires the Knight be cautious about just suicide running at people and exposing itself.

Has anyone here got any 2nd edition projects on the go?

After chatting on the forum and looking at some old White Dwarfs I've dragged my old rulebooks out and dusted them off. It is a very grognard thing to say but probably the most excited I have been about 40k since I played some pre-heresy events (which I think must have been 5th or 6th edition) about a decade ago!

Have got hold of a few old Eldar Dark Reapers (that will need a paint stripper bath) and might have a go at an Eldar army - all metal ofc - a dream of mine since I was a teenager.
Just need a copy of the codex (not one I have ever owned) that is a reasonable price!

 Pacific wrote:
Has anyone here got any 2nd edition projects on the go?

The old 'battle bible' was a complete 2nd edition reference.

House rules required.

 Pacific wrote:
Has anyone here got any 2nd edition projects on the go?

After chatting on the forum and looking at some old White Dwarfs I've dragged my old rulebooks out and dusted them off. It is a very grognard thing to say but probably the most excited I have been about 40k since I played some pre-heresy events (which I think must have been 5th or 6th edition) about a decade ago!

Have got hold of a few old Eldar Dark Reapers (that will need a paint stripper bath) and might have a go at an Eldar army - all metal ofc - a dream of mine since I was a teenager.
Just need a copy of the codex (not one I have ever owned) that is a reasonable price!

Closest I've got rules-wise is modifying N17 to make a 40k skirmish game, but that's less finished than my other Oldhammer project.