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Voss wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Reddit says (I have not laid eyes on this personally) storm shields have changed, they now give you a +1 to your save roll. So it makes your existing invul better, but for most units it does not give you a 3++.

It's a mixed bag for termies, they now get to ignore the first point of AP, but their best invul save is a 4++ (which takes a whopping ap -3 to get to) without a secondary source of invul. Vanguard vets on the other hand are about to get trashcanned, and quite a few configs of deathwatch vets as well.

I imagine where the marines lead the rest shall follow, and we'll see 3++ saves become much more rare in 9th, which on the whole is probably better for the game.There is one notable exception though, who if the rules go forward as written will be one of the real winners of the edition change, and of course I'm talking about Custodes. The average Custode with a storm shield is now rocking a 1+/3++, which makes them the toughest infantry in the game.

The new primaris models have different stormshields. Until datasheets are updated, terminators and custodes use the current ones.

9th does allow for 1+ saves, but currently terminators and custodes don't have them

The primaris stormshields give a 4+ inv save and +1 to the models save characteristic. It does not modify inv saves now that save characteristics are a thing.

 Grimgold wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Well we know it will at least be changing the Tau faction trait so that they can overwatch for free. So there's going to be at least a few things modifying codex rules in it.

I imagine we will find out sooner rather than later, because preorders start on the 11th, box arrives on the 25th, and we'll get the app with all of the new data sheets one week before the box which means the 18th of july.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Well we know it will at least be changing the Tau faction trait so that they can overwatch for free. So there's going to be at least a few things modifying codex rules in it.

... yes. Modifying a couple sentences (at most) in a general codex rule to fix rules interactions is the purview of a FAQ.
Reprinting datasheets is not.

There is a data sheet for storm shields? Rhetorical question, there isn't, it's a piece of wargear, which means they have to change it just once in every codex.

You mean that there is the chance that everyone can totally ignore RaW? Remember the Wargear book? I don't have my copy anymore, but for a while it said something along the lines that Terminators had a 3+ save. You want to know what happened? EVERYONE IGNORED IT!

Emissary wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Reddit says (I have not laid eyes on this personally) storm shields have changed, they now give you a +1 to your save roll. So it makes your existing invul better, but for most units it does not give you a 3++.

It's a mixed bag for termies, they now get to ignore the first point of AP, but their best invul save is a 4++ (which takes a whopping ap -3 to get to) without a secondary source of invul. Vanguard vets on the other hand are about to get trashcanned, and quite a few configs of deathwatch vets as well.

I imagine where the marines lead the rest shall follow, and we'll see 3++ saves become much more rare in 9th, which on the whole is probably better for the game.There is one notable exception though, who if the rules go forward as written will be one of the real winners of the edition change, and of course I'm talking about Custodes. The average Custode with a storm shield is now rocking a 1+/3++, which makes them the toughest infantry in the game.

The new primaris models have different stormshields. Until datasheets are updated, terminators and custodes use the current ones.

9th does allow for 1+ saves, but currently terminators and custodes don't have them

The primaris stormshields give a 4+ inv save and +1 to the models save characteristic. It does not modify inv saves now that save characteristics are a thing.

Yes, I know.
But they do that on the new primaris datasheets. It does not change the terminator datasheets- datasheets are self-contained rules for the specific unit, with the exception of keywords (like fly) or general rules (like Angels of Death), which point you to main rules or the army special rules in a codex.

 Grimgold wrote:


There is a data sheet for storm shields? Rhetorical question, there isn't, it's a piece of wargear, which means they have to change it just once in every codex.

Stormshields appear on the data sheet for each unit that can take them. It needs to be changed on those datasheets.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Well we know it will at least be changing the Tau faction trait so that they can overwatch for free. So there's going to be at least a few things modifying codex rules in it.

... yes. Modifying a couple sentences (at most) in a general codex rule to fix rules interactions is the purview of a FAQ.
Reprinting datasheets is not.

I didn't say anything about datasheets.

It was the entire context of the discussion. If you were talking about something else, my apologies for replying to you.

I think the FAQ covering a change to what Stormshields do so that they work the same on every unit that has one is exactly the point of the day 1 FAQ. I think it's the people expecting vast swathes of rules to be rewritten that are getting way ahead of themselves, haven't seen anyone like that here on Dakka but theres bloody loads of them on Facebook.

Voss wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Well we know it will at least be changing the Tau faction trait so that they can overwatch for free. So there's going to be at least a few things modifying codex rules in it.

... yes. Modifying a couple sentences (at most) in a general codex rule to fix rules interactions is the purview of a FAQ.
Reprinting datasheets is not.

I didn't say anything about datasheets.

It was the entire context of the discussion. If you were talking about something else, my apologies for replying to you.

No problem. I was talking about exactly what you said: modifying a general codex rule. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

I've noticed a number of subtle changes in the rules that are very interesting:

- Smite has no restrictions other than the 'can't go back to a psyker once you've moved on,' and an increased cost per attempt (by anyone). If a psyker can cast three powers, it can smite three times.

I don't think this is correct. The rules is "If the Psyker unit can attempt to manifest more than one psychic power in its Psychic phase, you can then attempt to manifest those, one at a time, as described above." That means you can attempt another power, not the same power again.

* Whenever you place a unit on the board any models you cannot place are destroyed
* The rules for fast rolling attacks are absent from the Core Rules document. We know they are in the rulebook from the photos, but not in the published core rules document
* Piling-in and Consolidating appear to be non-optional. Each model must complete those moves closer to the closest enemy model (model in B2B excepted)
* Units armed with Melee Weapons are no longer allowed to use the close combat weapon profile unless a rule prevents them from using their melee weapon

 alextroy wrote:
I've noticed a number of subtle changes in the rules that are very interesting:

- Smite has no restrictions other than the 'can't go back to a psyker once you've moved on,' and an increased cost per attempt (by anyone). If a psyker can cast three powers, it can smite three times.

I don't think this is correct. The rules is "If the Psyker unit can attempt to manifest more than one psychic power in its Psychic phase, you can then attempt to manifest those, one at a time, as described above." That means you can attempt another power, not the same power again.

* Whenever you place a unit on the board any models you cannot place are destroyed
* The rules for fast rolling attacks are absent from the Core Rules document. We know they are in the rulebook from the photos, but not in the published core rules document
* Piling-in and Consolidating appear to be non-optional. Each model must complete those moves closer to the closest enemy model (model in B2B excepted)
* Units armed with Melee Weapons are no longer allowed to use the close combat weapon profile unless a rule prevents them from using their melee weapon

"All Psykers know the Smite psychic power (pg 15)� Some know other powers instead of, or in addition to, Smite – the unit’s datasheets and other supplementary rules you are using will make it clear which powers each Psyker knows� Each psychic power has a warp charge value – the higher this is, the more difficult it is to manifest the psychic power� A Psyker unit generates their powers before the battle�
MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS When you select a Psyker unit to manifest psychic powers, you select one psychic power that unit knows and attempt to manifest it� With the exception of Smite, you cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once in the same battle round, even with different Psyker units�"

As written it appears smite is the exception to one per phase and thus, no restriction on the same charcter casting smite 3 times.

I agree this does not seem to be intention but who really knows.. However as things stand under current written rules that have been released it seems smite is the exception to the once per turn restriction.

Once again thanks for the contribution.

Once we get the full BRB and any FAQ I can update this again but for now I will refrain from going on snippets and leaks as these might be out of context..

Manifesting Smite multiple times is not manifesting “more than one” power. It is manifesting the same power multiple times.

Can anyone double check engagement range rules for me. I could have sworn I saw that vertical engagement range was 5".


This would mean you are in close combat with a squad who is a floor above you, but cannot swing at it because you are not within 1/2" unless your model is tall enough to be within 1/2".


So you can freely charge a second floor unit, but not hit it. Then they have to fall back to do anything on their turn lmao.

It is 5'' vertically, yes.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Can anyone double check engagement range rules for me. I could have sworn I saw that vertical engagement range was 5".


This would mean you are in close combat with a squad who is a floor above you, but cannot swing at it because you are not within 1/2" unless your model is tall enough to be within 1/2".


So you can freely charge a second floor unit, but not hit it. Then they have to fall back to do anything on their turn lmao.

Not quite. Vertical Engagement Range is 5", so models in Engagement Range can attack. It is the other models in the unit that cannot attack.

Ahh ok, I thought it specifically said that to be eligible to fight you have to be 1/2" or 1/2" of a model in 1/2".


Still im glad they fixed the problem of unchargable units.

All models in Engagement Range can fight. Models not in Engagement Range have to be within 1/2" of a model that is both in Engagement Range and within 1/2" of the enemy to be allowed to fight.

Yeah, many people seem to misread that, me included.

Either you are within 1" horizontally and 5" vertically OR you have to be within 1/2" of a model that is within 1/2" itself.

So basically an entire ork unit can fight the sniper on top of a ruin above them, but only the first ~10 can fight the daemon prince directly in front of them.

Don't think this one has been mentioned yet:

Objective Markers:
8th Edition - Measure to the centre of the objective marker to determine how many models are within range. (3" from centre of marker)
9th Edition - Objective markers are (recommended to be) 40mm round markers. "A model is in range of an objective marker if it within 3" horizontally and 5" vertically of that objective marker." This means the range of an objective marker is now larger horizontally , from 3" in 8th to 3" plus 20mm (almost 4" from the centre) in 9th and vertical distance is also a factor.

Maybe not a huge change on paper, but it might be a significant difference in games.

EDIT:
Charge moves:
Unless i'm missing something, there is no longer a requirement that the first model moved when charging has to move within 1" of the target unit. Instead, the charging unit must end the charge move in engagement range of the target unit(s), but the requirement for the first model to be moved reaching 1" has gone.

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, many people seem to misread that, me included.

Either you are within 1" horizontally and 5" vertically OR you have to be within 1/2" of a model that is within 1/2" itself.

So basically an entire ork unit can fight the sniper on top of a ruin above them, but only the first ~10 can fight the daemon prince directly in front of them.

Based orks throwing stones at snipers hidding in 1st floor.

In old ruins probably as far as second floor

Anything higher up can just be run over by a deff rolla. My battle wagons now has 12" vertical reach with their turrets. I guess you could gain another inch or two by putting a grabbin klaw on top

I haven't seen the leaks about the new Storm Shield, so I'm asking: among those leaked images is there a unit that actually has the 1+ save thanks to the shield? Or those 1+ units are just theoryhammer because in 8th some 2+ save dudes could take a storm shield?

Rules with the same name can describe a different effect between multiple datasheets.

 Blackie wrote:
I haven't seen the leaks about the new Storm Shield, so I'm asking: among those leaked images is there a unit that actually has the 1+ save thanks to the shield? Or those 1+ units are just theoryhammer because in 8th some 2+ save dudes could take a storm shield?

Rules with the same name can describe a different effect between multiple datasheets.

Its assumption at this stage. And a pretty big one in my opinion.

Yes, it would be confusing if wargear with the same name had different functionality. But it wouldn't be unprecedented.

What I think is most likely is that they do roll out this change for all datasheets. BUT with a launch FAQ saying saves can't be improved to better than 2+. If they're feeling nice, they'll give captains Relic Shields instead with the 4+ to ignore mortal wounds, because otherwise SS are redundant for Terminator Captains.

 Stux wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I haven't seen the leaks about the new Storm Shield, so I'm asking: among those leaked images is there a unit that actually has the 1+ save thanks to the shield? Or those 1+ units are just theoryhammer because in 8th some 2+ save dudes could take a storm shield?

Rules with the same name can describe a different effect between multiple datasheets.

Its assumption at this stage. And a pretty big one in my opinion.

Yes, it would be confusing if wargear with the same name had different functionality. But it wouldn't be unprecedented.

What I think is most likely is that they do roll out this change for all datasheets. BUT with a launch FAQ saying saves can't be improved to better than 2+. If they're feeling nice, they'll give captains Relic Shields instead with the 4+ to ignore mortal wounds, because otherwise SS are redundant for Terminator Captains.

It is also a real issue as you can give sargents in SM a 2+ save armour, so Even if it's only Blade guard you can still have a 2++ BladeGuards Sargent

 AndrewC wrote:
You now have permission to move moveable parts of models during the movement phase, which means drop pods can now have their LoS footprint changed.

Andrew

If you move a part then you count as having moved the longest distance between the start and end points of each part of a model (my wording here is terrible sorry but I hope you get what I mean).

Drop Pods have 0" movement.

So I don't think you can move a drop pod's doors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
All models in Engagement Range can fight. Models not in Engagement Range have to be within 1/2" of a model that is both in Engagement Range and within 1/2" of the enemy to be allowed to fight.

You can swing if you are in engagment range.

OR

You can swing if you are within 1/2" of someone within 1/2". You can't swing if you are within 1/2" of someone who is en engagement range but over a 1/2" away.

Hopefully there are some clear pictures explaining this in the main rule book, I think once people see it visually they will understand.

Insane Bravery is now only once per battle.

sanguine40k wrote:
Insane Bravery is now only once per battle.

I don't think I have ever used it more than once in all of 8th

sanguine40k wrote:
Insane Bravery is now only once per battle.

It wasn't used often before and failing moral is now less lethal for low moral units anyway.