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3x Vindicators w/ Combi-Melta & Havoc seems pretty fun. The melta will help break out with any bad touch (and since when in combat i'm already -1 then I may as well shoot both profiles) and move and shoot on 10" keeps them pretty damned mobile. Bring 3 on from reserves when facing castles and use bombardment with no chance of being foiled from being on table. I have no idea if this will be valuable, but it could be a method to clear objectives on the side you push.

Heldrakes could have some good fun shooting into combat with anything that feels like sticking to the fight, but I think more importantly the Heldrake will be a good secondary scorer.

I'm still putting Tzaangors on the list of to use. T4 4++ is pretty solid if their points don't go too high. Previously there was little stopping Tzaangors from running so you either got into combat and did work or died. Now they can actually hold something without evaporating.

And if 5 Spawn stay around 100 points there's no way I'm not sticking one unit into reserves.

Your point about the Vindicators is interesting. Could be a reason to blow the dust off mine. They've been so bad for so long I kind of forgot about 'em, but that use case could be very interesting to play with.

Tycho wrote:


Your point about the Vindicators is interesting. Could be a reason to blow the dust off mine. They've been so bad for so long I kind of forgot about 'em, but that use case could be very interesting to play with.

When they hit a buck twenty five I started throwing them on the table for the hell of it. Marines in particular had a hard time dealing with T8, but as usual their downfall was D6 shots and short range/move penalties. Now that I can get min 3 on typically sized Grotesque units, 6 man aggressors, etc they're potentially quite a bit more useful shooting.

The havoc launcher price got real nice, too, but was plagued by random shots and move penalties as well. Given the marine changes seem to indicate that it isn't changing price much it could be a great tool. And with Combi-Melta at 10 and Combi likely to be 3 that means its only 7 points more (roughly) for melta, which is great on a mid-range unit like the VIndicator.

Now I just hope they don't remove Linebreaker like they did with loyalists.

Now I just hope they don't remove Linebreaker like they did with loyalists.

That would be my luck

I've been looking at spawn too. I'm converting the Hullbreakers from the Rogue Trader Kill Team set. How do you typically use yours?

What kind of synergy do you get from spawn? I've got a couple I kitbashed a while ago I can definitely use for this army.

 chimeara wrote:
What kind of synergy do you get from spawn? I've got a couple I kitbashed a while ago I can definitely use for this army.

We have the stratagem. For 1 CP we pick their ability and get to reroll their attacks. They're a good target for healing, weaver, and warptime as well. Five of them can clear almost a whole 10 man of Intercessors with AP4 and a decent roll on attacks.

If you can stick a Defiler in their face they'll also have a hard time getting the proper guns pointed at Spawn.

If you can stick a Defiler in their face they'll also have a hard time getting the proper guns pointed at Spawn.

And Defilers can fire into CC now right? So they are suddenly something to think about taking again because you aren't stuck with an "either/or" scenario when using them.

Spawn are dirt cheap for 4 T5 wounds, and they are not totally worthless in combat if by some miracle you get them there.

They were much better when you could run them as night lords without paying a CP penalty for it, though. I'm not convinced they're worth it as Tsons.

Tycho wrote:

If you can stick a Defiler in their face they'll also have a hard time getting the proper guns pointed at Spawn.

And Defilers can fire into CC now right? So they are suddenly something to think about taking again because you aren't stuck with an "either/or" scenario when using them.

Yerp. On top of full efficacy while moving. I may actually take the twin heavy flamer now.

Was looking at my Tsons again last night in light of what we're talking about here. In 8th, my Tsons were built around a Battalion of 30 Rubrics, led by Exalted Sorcerers, and the classic Supreme Command detachment of Ahriman and 2 winged DPs.


Given that the order of operations for casting has changed (you now have to use all of one Psykers attempts before moving on to the next and you can't come back to anyone who was used previously in the phase), and given that you would now have to pay extra CP anyway, what do we think of a battalion HQ of just Ahriman and 2 winged DPs and dropping the extra HQ's?

It only costs 2CP to take two patrols instead of one bat, which gives you 4 HQs if you want them and, more importantly to my mind, two cults. For a pure Tsons list, I think most list building is going to move to two patrols eventually, once people realize the 2CP tax is worth paying for the double cult access.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It only costs 2CP to take two patrols instead of one bat, which gives you 4 HQs if you want them and, more importantly to my mind, two cults. For a pure Tsons list, I think most list building is going to move to two patrols eventually, once people realize the 2CP tax is worth paying for the double cult access.

I've been going down this road as well. A Patrol and a Vanguard of Scarabs or a Spearhead of Vindicators is not out of the question for me either.

Playing a bunch of games of 9th today and tomorrow. I’m going to try out some of the things we talked about here. I’ll report back!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
It only costs 2CP to take two patrols instead of one bat, which gives you 4 HQs if you want them and, more importantly to my mind, two cults. For a pure Tsons list, I think most list building is going to move to two patrols eventually, once people realize the 2CP tax is worth paying for the double cult access.

I've been going down this road as well. A Patrol and a Vanguard of Scarabs or a Spearhead of Vindicators is not out of the question for me either.

Yup. If I am going pure TS then two patrol magic and duplicity is when I am going. Though Tzeentch daemons also seem cool and depending on points the LoC exalted seems tasty.

Horrors look like they might be the first problem unit of 9th, they get around all the horde nerfs and are ob-sec that are basically impossible to remove from an objective as long as you have reinforcement points to burn on keeping the unit alive, that can also move across the whole board while being killed if you want them to.

I have a Tsons/daemons list that I honestly think is broken in 9th if horrors don't get a huge points nerf.

Horrors look like they might be the first problem unit of 9th, they get around all the horde nerfs and are ob-sec that are basically impossible to remove from an objective as long as you have reinforcement points to burn on keeping the unit alive, that can also move across the whole board while being killed if you want them to.

I have a Tsons/daemons list that I honestly think is broken in 9th if horrors don't get a huge points nerf.

CAN CONFIRM.

Our group a ton of 850 point games on Saturday and a bunch of 1850 point games Sunday this past weekend. In the larger games, I brought a lot of Horrors. I will not be doing this again in friendly games until/unless they get a nerf.

I played roughly 7 or 8 games total over the two days, and this obviously all anecdotal, but thoughts are thus:

Over-all, I will say that Cult of Duplicity is amazing in this edition, and Risen Rubricae was pretty clutch. I would use the strat to have a squad either on an objective already, or just prepped to get "Infernal Fullisade" off on turn 1. I would then use Dark Matter Crystal and the cult power to get the other 2 squads onto objectives, with the terminators teleporting in where needed. They could claim an objective, back up one I already had, or just go punch something I wanted dead.

I expect this to change, but the way these are currently scored, in some missions (we didn't play ALL of them), if you get two objectives right from the jump, and hold them through turn 2, you can nearly auto-win.

In the larger games, I also tried out the Vindicators. I only have two, but they worked better than they ever have. Especially given the smaller board size.

The biggest challenge I had was the fact that Rhino rush is back with a vengeance. At times, this made it feel like 3rd ed all over again. Assault Intercessors in transports are going to be hard on us I think.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Horrors look like they might be the first problem unit of 9th, they get around all the horde nerfs and are ob-sec that are basically impossible to remove from an objective as long as you have reinforcement points to burn on keeping the unit alive, that can also move across the whole board while being killed if you want them to.

I have a Tsons/daemons list that I honestly think is broken in 9th if horrors don't get a huge points nerf.

Good news? Pinks go up 1, but blues and brimstones both go up 2.

Yeah, they spotted the issue with horrors, and decided to deal with it by nerfing the blues and brimstones to be extremely costly, which I think is actually the right solution.

It doesn't really make sense, in the sense that a pink is way, way better than a blue but costs only 1 point more, but it does create a situation where you have an incentive to not to take a minimum size squad of pinks just to do the spawn trick on them to keep them alive.

On the other hand, everything else in my 9th Tsons/daemons list that I thought was broken got lower points increases than practically anything else in the game. So I think the list is still really, really strong.

The fact that nurglings didn't get any points increase at all is just bizarre and feels like it must be an oversight. Literally every other troop choice in the game (AFAIK) got a points increase, but one of the best ones didn't? Makes no sense.

Yeah, they spotted the issue with horrors, and decided to deal with it by nerfing the blues and brimstones to be extremely costly, which I think is actually the right solution.

It doesn't really make sense, in the sense that a pink is way, way better than a blue but costs only 1 point more, but it does create a situation where you have an incentive to not to take a minimum size squad of pinks just to do the spawn trick on them to keep them alive.

Agree with this assessment - it's counter-intuitive, but I think it makes sense in context to the actual problem.

Rubrics looking good.

I'm gonna be running Chaos knights with a patrol detachment of Duplicity Rubrics for objective grabbing. It's going to be interesting to see how it works out.

So, with the points changes. Looks like Scarabs are out. Rubrics are in. Maybe small unit of tzaangors. What else looks good?

Voss wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Horrors look like they might be the first problem unit of 9th, they get around all the horde nerfs and are ob-sec that are basically impossible to remove from an objective as long as you have reinforcement points to burn on keeping the unit alive, that can also move across the whole board while being killed if you want them to.

I have a Tsons/daemons list that I honestly think is broken in 9th if horrors don't get a huge points nerf.

Good news? Pinks go up 1, but blues and brimstones both go up 2.

He's talking about Pinks I'd presume. Pinks (and lesser daemons in general) are looking fairly solid going into the new edition.

I just had a chuckle comparing my Eldar Storm Guardians to any lesser daemons, stats for the points-wise.

So, with the points changes. Looks like Scarabs are out. Rubrics are in. Maybe small unit of tzaangors. What else looks good?

How much did the Scarabs go up by? They were literally winning games on their own over the weekend. They felt much better in 9th. Tzangors were ... not good. It may still be worth it to take a single 5 man squad, but I can't be bothered to wade through the points leaks ...

 chimeara wrote:
So, with the points changes. Looks like Scarabs are out. Rubrics are in. Maybe small unit of tzaangors. What else looks good?

For me, min rubrics all day long except for one big unit whose job is to have all the powers and strats used on 'em. I'll bring maybe 185 points of reinforcement. That way i can do

1) Aggressive melee opponent? 20 pink horror screen

2) elite low-toughness opponent like marine infantry spam/sisters infantry spam? 8 flamers

3) enemy vehicle spam? 3x exalted flamers

4) elite enemy gunline? 7 screamers

As others have stated I like the defiler now even more, basically hasn't budged in price and got a lot of huge bonuses (move and shoot heavy and shoot into melee is so huge for him) and exalted sorcerors on discs are actually looking like a choice vs daemon princes now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

So, with the points changes. Looks like Scarabs are out. Rubrics are in. Maybe small unit of tzaangors. What else looks good?

How much did the Scarabs go up by? They were literally winning games on their own over the weekend. They felt much better in 9th. Tzangors were ... not good. It may still be worth it to take a single 5 man squad, but I can't be bothered to wade through the points leaks ...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IRnHYqQfUNymy6be2vn9iZAczaR8HTblA-Id1qEBnlU/edit?usp=sharing

no need to wade, here's everything in a pretty easy to read format. Tzaangors are up to 9. Definitely more worthwile than cultists at an eye-watering 6ppm....buuuut I don't think ever going to compare with the utility of pink horrors at 8ppm.

Just bring reinforcement points and slap some horrors down in front of your rubric block if you need.

Scarabs went up 5 per model. I saw that Exalted Sorcerers went down. So I'll probably get some of those now. Defiler is also most likely to happen. Wartime sounds fun on one of those lol.

 chimeara wrote:
Scarabs went up 5 per model. I saw that Exalted Sorcerers went down. So I'll probably get some of those now. Defiler is also most likely to happen. Wartime sounds fun on one of those lol.

Also, it's such a fantastically goofy dumpster fire of a model, which is actually a selling point for me because i'm a crazy person.

Tycho wrote:

Yeah, they spotted the issue with horrors, and decided to deal with it by nerfing the blues and brimstones to be extremely costly, which I think is actually the right solution.

It doesn't really make sense, in the sense that a pink is way, way better than a blue but costs only 1 point more, but it does create a situation where you have an incentive to not to take a minimum size squad of pinks just to do the spawn trick on them to keep them alive.

Agree with this assessment - it's counter-intuitive, but I think it makes sense in context to the actual problem.

There was a problem with horrors? The unit that used to cost (if you wanted to keep reserve points up) 23 ppm and now costs 32 ppm?

Must be a terrible player because I never saw horrors being abused in any scenario whatsoever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

So, with the points changes. Looks like Scarabs are out. Rubrics are in. Maybe small unit of tzaangors. What else looks good?

How much did the Scarabs go up by? They were literally winning games on their own over the weekend. They felt much better in 9th. Tzangors were ... not good. It may still be worth it to take a single 5 man squad, but I can't be bothered to wade through the points leaks ...

What kind of games were scarabs winning on their own? I am honestly baffled.

There was a problem with horrors? The unit that used to cost (if you wanted to keep reserve points up) 23 ppm and now costs 32 ppm?

Must be a terrible player because I never saw horrors being abused in any scenario whatsoever.

In 9th they would have ignored a lot of the things that were put in place to lessen the effect of hordes. They also had obsec. You probably haven't played a ton of the 9th missions, but the way they're set up, if you go first and grab 2 or 3 objectives right away, and hold them through turn 2, it becomes almost impossible for the other player to come back.

With horrors pointed the way they were, I was able to bring them down either onto and empty objective, or to screen an objective claimed by my Rubrics, and just keep respawning them. Only needed enough poionts to last for two turns and then there's nothing you can do as the other player. They would have been a major issue.

I think the new points for them helps prevent this while still keeping them somewhat worth-while.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IRnHYqQfUNymy6be2vn9iZAczaR8HTblA-Id1qEBnlU/edit?usp=sharing

no need to wade, here's everything in a pretty easy to read format. Tzaangors are up to 9. Definitely more worthwile than cultists at an eye-watering 6ppm....buuuut I don't think ever going to compare with the utility of pink horrors at 8ppm.

Hey thanks!

Tycho wrote:

There was a problem with horrors? The unit that used to cost (if you wanted to keep reserve points up) 23 ppm and now costs 32 ppm?

Must be a terrible player because I never saw horrors being abused in any scenario whatsoever.

In 9th they would have ignored a lot of the things that were put in place to lessen the effect of hordes. They also had obsec. You probably haven't played a ton of the 9th missions, but the way they're set up, if you go first and grab 2 or 3 objectives right away, and hold them through turn 2, it becomes almost impossible for the other player to come back.

With horrors pointed the way they were, I was able to bring them down either onto and empty objective, or to screen an objective claimed by my Rubrics, and just keep respawning them. Only needed enough poionts to last for two turns and then there's nothing you can do as the other player. They would have been a major issue.

How did you bring horrors down on turn 1? What did your opponent play with? Because most stuff in the game will go through 20 or even 30 pink horrors with no problem whatsoever. Keeping the same unit of horrors alive for two battle rounds even with reinforcement points seems EXTREMELY unlikely to my experience.

 chimeara wrote:
Scarabs went up 5 per model. I saw that Exalted Sorcerers went down. So I'll probably get some of those now. Defiler is also most likely to happen. Wartime sounds fun on one of those lol.

Scarabs are still worth it. I stick mine in Cult of Time. With good planning with terrain I can walk them out of view and heal them up. Weaver and Indomitable will make sure anyone trying to remove them has a hell of a time doing so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

How did you bring horrors down on turn 1? What did your opponent play with? Because most stuff in the game will go through 20 or even 30 pink horrors with no problem whatsoever. Keeping the same unit of horrors alive for two battle rounds even with reinforcement points seems EXTREMELY unlikely to my experience.

You might be thinking old morale? 120 lasguns couldn't clear 20 horrors. Those fancy new Outriders could kill like 5 in melee.