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Hello all. Wanted to ask what people found attractive about the Black Legion faction in 40K, and why they are deserving to be considered the pre-eminent Chaos faction (if you disagree with this, I'm curious to know why).

I've been catching up on the Horus Heresy book series to learn more about Horus Lupercal, and more importantly Ezekyle Abaddon, so that I can see how the latter progressed from the First Captain of the Justaerin to the future Warmaster. So far the books on my list are Horus Rising, False Gods, Vengeful Spirit, Wolfspear, and Slaves to Darkness. Any other Horus Heresy-era books I should consider looking into? I had heard about the Primarchs book series but it seems there isn't an entry for Horus (yet), perhaps Black Library is saving the best for last?

The best source for the Black Legionas they are in M41 is the Black Legion supplement. It was the first time all 12 prior Black Crusades were detailed and goes into a lot of what makes the Black Legion so functional where others fall apart or get stuck in a rut.

Honestly you're not going to find as much as you might think on the Black Legion in the Horus Heresy. Horus especially is someone who does not play into their function. Their existence as an entity is built around the idea that the old legions and their values have been left behind. The two Black Legion novels, Talon of Horus and Black Legion go into this heavily as well.

I'd reccomend the black Legion supplement, as well as ADB's fantastic novels Talon of Horus and Black Legion.

Yeah, the Black Legion are rather more defined by the aftermath of the Heresy than the actual Heresy itself.

In all fairness, they're arguably closer to the Deathwatch than to the typical Chapter structure, being made up of generally anyone who wishes to subsume their old Legion alliances and let go of their past in favour of the unity and might of the black.

Their whole thing is more or less based around "let your past go, who cares about the old legions?"

I think, as has already been mentioned, the attraction is that the Black Legion is wiping the away shameful history of the Heresy, and is starting anew. They seem to have a sort of fraternity based on the rejection of their old feuds and rivalries, and poaching the best talents from the other Legions and Warbands.

The Talon of Horus is a good source, but IMO parts of it read like cringey fanfic; and I am normally a big fan of ADB.

One of the issues with the HH series, as far as Abaddon goes, is the imbalance between showing and telling. We get told a lot what a big deal he is, but never shown him doing anything that supports those statements. Compare him to Khârn, where we are shown all kinds of badassary, and Abaddon just comes off as a bit meh.

As for 40k novels, I'd recommend Pandorax as well as the black legion novels, as well as the first night lords book by ADB. They don't add chunks of insight into him, but enough for someone who is interested in his character.

 JamesY wrote:
One of the issues with the HH series, as far as Abaddon goes, is the imbalance between showing and telling. We get told a lot what a big deal he is, but never shown him doing anything that supports those statements. Compare him to Khârn, where we are shown all kinds of badassary, and Abaddon just comes off as a bit meh.

As for 40k novels, I'd recommend Pandorax as well as the black legion novels, as well as the first night lords book by ADB. They don't add chunks of insight into him, but enough for someone who is interested in his character.

Yeah, if you were basing your view of the Chaos Legions on their depiction in the HH novels pretty much any of the major Chaos characters except Abaddon would seem more important. Kharn, Typhus, Fabius Bile and even characters like Eidolon seem more important and impactful to their individual Legions than Abaddon does in that series. To really understand the Black Legion you need to go for the more recent material on them, not the stuff set in the HH.

Slipspace wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
One of the issues with the HH series, as far as Abaddon goes, is the imbalance between showing and telling. We get told a lot what a big deal he is, but never shown him doing anything that supports those statements. Compare him to Khârn, where we are shown all kinds of badassary, and Abaddon just comes off as a bit meh.

As for 40k novels, I'd recommend Pandorax as well as the black legion novels, as well as the first night lords book by ADB. They don't add chunks of insight into him, but enough for someone who is interested in his character.

Yeah, if you were basing your view of the Chaos Legions on their depiction in the HH novels pretty much any of the major Chaos characters except Abaddon would seem more important. Kharn, Typhus, Fabius Bile and even characters like Eidolon seem more important and impactful to their individual Legions than Abaddon does in that series. To really understand the Black Legion you need to go for the more recent material on them, not the stuff set in the HH.

Do any novels with Abbadon as a side character give him a good view? I thought Typhus was well shown in Cadian Blood.

 harlokin wrote:
I think, as has already been mentioned, the attraction is that the Black Legion is wiping the away shameful history of the Heresy, and is starting anew. They seem to have a sort of fraternity based on the rejection of their old feuds and rivalries, and poaching the best talents from the other Legions and Warbands.

The Talon of Horus is a good source, but IMO parts of it read like cringey fanfic; and I am normally a big fan of ADB.

If this is true then it should be reflected in the codex. Noise marines for example could have the black legion keyword. As it stand specialists units can only come separate detachments. Most of the units in CSM codex like warp smiths and arch lord discordant and the forgefeinds all feel like BL special units and have the BL decals all over the models which makes me reluctant to take them into my EC army. I think if GW want CSM to be organise in such a way that BL is the main chaos force and the old legions are on the periphery then the codex should reflect that better. As it stands it feels like BL, EC, DG, WE etc are sort of equal like the loyalist chapters

pm713 wrote:
Do any novels with Abbadon as a side character give him a good view? I thought Typhus was well shown in Cadian Blood.

The Siege of Terra books have been giving Abaddon a pretty solid showing so far. Mainly because there's a desire to make up for lost time, as until the later end of the HH series, no author knew what to do with the Sons of Horus, much less had a desire to write about them.

mrFickle wrote:
If this is true then it should be reflected in the codex. Noise marines for example could have the black legion keyword. As it stand specialists units can only come separate detachments. Most of the units in CSM codex like warp smiths and arch lord discordant and the forgefeinds all feel like BL special units and have the BL decals all over the models which makes me reluctant to take them into my EC army. I think if GW want CSM to be organise in such a way that BL is the main chaos force and the old legions are on the periphery then the codex should reflect that better. As it stands it feels like BL, EC, DG, WE etc are sort of equal like the loyalist chapters

Codexes have to make some attempt at balance. It's silly to even try to apply TT rules to lore.

mrFickle wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I think, as has already been mentioned, the attraction is that the Black Legion is wiping the away shameful history of the Heresy, and is starting anew. They seem to have a sort of fraternity based on the rejection of their old feuds and rivalries, and poaching the best talents from the other Legions and Warbands.

The Talon of Horus is a good source, but IMO parts of it read like cringey fanfic; and I am normally a big fan of ADB.

If this is true then it should be reflected in the codex. Noise marines for example could have the black legion keyword. As it stand specialists units can only come separate detachments. Most of the units in CSM codex like warp smiths and arch lord discordant and the forgefeinds all feel like BL special units and have the BL decals all over the models which makes me reluctant to take them into my EC army. I think if GW want CSM to be organise in such a way that BL is the main chaos force and the old legions are on the periphery then the codex should reflect that better. As it stands it feels like BL, EC, DG, WE etc are sort of equal like the loyalist chapters

Previous editions definitely reflected this - and had e.g Khorne berserkers and Rubric marines painted in BL colours (with red/gold and blue/gold helmets respectively)

OP: If you can get hold of it, the novel Shadowpoint (the 2nd part of the Gothic War duology) is also good and has some scenes showcasing Abaddon as a fleet commander during a black crusade rather than just going and punching things (though it mostly focuses on one of his subordinates on the Chaos side and is primarily about the Imperial Navy).

mrFickle wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I think, as has already been mentioned, the attraction is that the Black Legion is wiping the away shameful history of the Heresy, and is starting anew. They seem to have a sort of fraternity based on the rejection of their old feuds and rivalries, and poaching the best talents from the other Legions and Warbands.

The Talon of Horus is a good source, but IMO parts of it read like cringey fanfic; and I am normally a big fan of ADB.

If this is true then it should be reflected in the codex. Noise marines for example could have the black legion keyword. As it stand specialists units can only come separate detachments. Most of the units in CSM codex like warp smiths and arch lord discordant and the forgefeinds all feel like BL special units and have the BL decals all over the models which makes me reluctant to take them into my EC army. I think if GW want CSM to be organise in such a way that BL is the main chaos force and the old legions are on the periphery then the codex should reflect that better. As it stands it feels like BL, EC, DG, WE etc are sort of equal like the loyalist chapters

The other legions aren't subservient to the Black Legion and Abaddon. The Night Lords have a tendency to turn down their requests for assistance. Look at the page in Eye of Terror showcasing the legions that participated. The Night Lords are missing, and replaced by a renegade warband (the Violators). Talos also famously told Abaddon and all four Chaos Gods exactly what they could do with their offer to join them in Soul Hunter.

mrFickle wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I think, as has already been mentioned, the attraction is that the Black Legion is wiping the away shameful history of the Heresy, and is starting anew. They seem to have a sort of fraternity based on the rejection of their old feuds and rivalries, and poaching the best talents from the other Legions and Warbands.

The Talon of Horus is a good source, but IMO parts of it read like cringey fanfic; and I am normally a big fan of ADB.

If this is true then it should be reflected in the codex. Noise marines for example could have the black legion keyword. As it stand specialists units can only come separate detachments. Most of the units in CSM codex like warp smiths and arch lord discordant and the forgefeinds all feel like BL special units and have the BL decals all over the models which makes me reluctant to take them into my EC army. I think if GW want CSM to be organise in such a way that BL is the main chaos force and the old legions are on the periphery then the codex should reflect that better. As it stands it feels like BL, EC, DG, WE etc are sort of equal like the loyalist chapters

Well, first off, it doesn't feel like that at all. Several of the legions are entirely shattered and never really operate at anything other than warband strength, this is obviously true of World Eaters, but also affects the EC and Night Lords (though the former could probably be rallied together by Fulgrim). Alpha Legion is a 'who knows?' kind of situation. But Black Legion has been consistently painted as the posterboys and bigger and badder than everyone else. Like the horror stories about Ultramarines-fluff, but with no pretense about it. Abaddon and his boys are the most chaosy chaos boys around, so chaosy they can thumb their noses at the gods and carry on with their own goals.

As for the rules bit... I'll admit to not being up on Codex 2.0, but previously that has been the case. Even the indexes had the <legion> keyword for the cult troops, meaning they could be taken by anyone, regardless of which Legion. The fluff for Rubrics has openly stated that they get sold/loaned off and repainted for favors or secrets, and anybody can wander too far down the path of slaughter or... noise making. Nurgle doesn't have any compunction about blighting squads (or companeis) until they turn to him.

 JamesY wrote:
One of the issues with the HH series, as far as Abaddon goes, is the imbalance between showing and telling. We get told a lot what a big deal he is, but never shown him doing anything that supports those statements. Compare him to Khârn, where we are shown all kinds of badassary, and Abaddon just comes off as a bit meh.

As for 40k novels, I'd recommend Pandorax as well as the black legion novels, as well as the first night lords book by ADB. They don't add chunks of insight into him, but enough for someone who is interested in his character.

I think thats because Kharn is basically the De-facto leader of the world eaters, while Abby is still just 2iC until Horus cops it. he comes into his own after that.

I like the things that hint at his contempt for the powers, like the small part he has in 'lost and the damned' where his contempt for the daemon primarchs is described, and he vocalises that fact to their faces.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
One of the issues with the HH series, as far as Abaddon goes, is the imbalance between showing and telling. We get told a lot what a big deal he is, but never shown him doing anything that supports those statements. Compare him to Khârn, where we are shown all kinds of badassary, and Abaddon just comes off as a bit meh.

As for 40k novels, I'd recommend Pandorax as well as the black legion novels, as well as the first night lords book by ADB. They don't add chunks of insight into him, but enough for someone who is interested in his character.

I think thats because Kharn is basically the De-facto leader of the world eaters, while Abby is still just 2iC until Horus cops it. he comes into his own after that.

I like the things that hint at his contempt for the powers, like the small part he has in 'lost and the damned' where his contempt for the daemon primarchs is described, and he vocalises that fact to their faces.

I don't know, Angron has had a decent amount of pages as well as Khârn. I just think it was a bit of a wasted opportunity to show why he was so famous prior to the heresy. If you knew nothing of the 40k background, you wouldn't know that he was in any way distinguished from the majority of the minor characters.

But that's just it, I think he's famous because he takes the mantle from Horus after he fails. Before that, sure he was well known, but no more than any other renowned marine.