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Something worth noting on that list is that he doesn't give up any easy secondaries - even if they pick bring it down, the opponent would have to destroy six buggies or three buggies and both bonebreakers to get max points.

That many scrapjets will also do a number on primaris, especially those in gravis armor.

cody.d. wrote:
Do you not get the CP back if you have your warlord in an outrider detachment perhaps? If he also won while having 3 CP less than his opponent that means he did pretty well for himself.

Also time costs. It's a lot faster to roll the wound rolls for the KMK than the same number of SG.

Refund is only for patrol, battalion and brigade(or super heavy for knights)

KMK has 36” range and SMG 48”. It' s a crucial difference. 48 = you cover most of the table and usually all or majority of objectives, and you have longer range than most of the hummies settings. KMK have to wait until hummies come.

I think no one would argue that smashas aren't better than KMK. But you won't cripple your army by using KMK instead of smashas.

Tomsug wrote:KMK has 36” range and SMG 48”. It' s a crucial difference. 48 = you cover most of the table and usually all or majority of objectives, and you have longer range than most of the hummies settings. KMK have to wait until hummies come.

I think the 48" matters but I don't think it matters as much as it did in 8th. The diagonal of the table went from 86.5" to 74.4", factor in LoS blocking terrain and we'll probably see that 48" is realistically the furthest we'll need. I think 24"-36" will be more then capable of doing the job now if you take advantage of the LoS blocking terrain.

Jidmah wrote:I think no one would argue that smashas aren't better than KMK. But you won't cripple your army by using KMK instead of smashas.

Yeah this is basically my point with the mathhammer ramble, the numbers dont favour the smasha as much as they used to. Smashas are still probably the most efficient choice but we now can swap them out with KMK's for the real world benefits without shooting ourselves in the foot in game.

 Tomsug wrote:
KMK has 36” range and SMG 48”. It' s a crucial difference. 48 = you cover most of the table and usually all or majority of objectives, and you have longer range than most of the hummies settings. KMK have to wait until hummies come.

Actually KMK have 39'' range, now they can move and shoot without penalty. I don't think range is an issue at all, Smasha still have the edge because they're 25ppm cheaper. For a battery of a few mek gunz KMKs can be a legit alternative to Smashas, while a battery of 4-6 models is definitely better if it's full of Smashas as the point cost would be significantly cheaper and with that many mek gunz the ork player would have a lot of firepower anyway.

More LOS blocking and +3 inches are definitely relevant againts importance of 48 range.

Smaller table not so much. Smaller table deletes the difference between 60” of SAG and 48” of SMG. Not 48/36.

SMGs are super cheap, not so easy to kill and bloody dangerous vehicles that have to be killed. So enemy spent T1 killing Cca 40p models under 5++ KFF. It saves the rest of your army.

On other hand, these guns incl grots are pretty big. With a lot of LOS, there would be just a narrow lines of fire. Just a few models will be available to fire, so less amount of better models could be the adventage.

KMK was better before Codex, maybe, we come back to this point again.

I proof it on friday.
Maybe.... the list of “to proof” is so long I need to play 3 days in a row

Btw KMK thanks to the Blast rule are same?, efective vs. 6-10 model units as the SMG. SMG H3 T7,5 AP-4 D6 vs KMK Haprox4? T8 AP-3 D6.

36" is plenty, all it means is you cant hit the back-edge stuff really. And in this edition i dont see those being that common unless theyre hiding behind a wall anyway shooting out of sight.

For a lot of armies, thats the only backfield thing they got that holds objectives without burning a ton of points. So its bound to be forward a bit.

Smashas are still unquestionably better.. There's some small things too.

1) Can more easily split fire / less likely to over kill a unit.
2) 2d3 averages better than 1d6 in terms of minimum and average shots (while being less likely to get max values).
3) Smasha guns ignore transhuman, one of the most broken stratagems in the game
4) Extra pip of AP is enough outright ignore most vehicles armour saves. Lots of vehicles still get some play despite no invul.
5) Basically if it can get shot in LOS, it can shoot back. Less important with smaller board / obscuring, but it'll happen occasionally.
6) The most obvious one (that has been discussed) is just more wounds per output. Mek Guns are not hard to kill, getting more durability per point matters.

It really only loses out to T8 and not by much... 42% wound rate vs 50%. Not a big deal.

Although monetary restrictions are understandable, if you're discussing optimal competitive builds, you sort of have to ignore it.

The KMK is fine on a budget, but honestly, if you can't go the whole nine yards with smashas, just build without them.

KMK is better per point against many vehicles with invul saves - so depending on your meta might be worth it. And if you want the Maximum output from 4 flanking guns, the KMK is obviously the better choice. For a gunline, smashas usually win.

I've been thinking of something.

With a list with some freebotaz, you can use the freebotaz stratagem (1D3 points of the map, 1D3 mortal wounds for every 5+) + Boomber bombs (1 mortal wound for every 5+) + Boomber explosión (3 mortal wounds for everyone).

I would like to play something like this.

- warboss, kff, mage, 90 goffs, 15 kommando
- badruk, 10 pirates in trukk, 6 mekgunz.
- burnaboomer

What do you think? it sux?

More planes than one. If you lost the initiative, one plane is always shot down. Take 2-3 or none.

 Tomsug wrote:
More LOS blocking and +3 inches are definitely relevant againts importance of 48 range.

More LOS blocking? Where? In 8th ed 1st floor of ruins blocked LOS period. Now only in certain cases. It's less LOS blocking than what here has been for 3 years.

Sorry for another one so quickly.

I’m just so pumped to paint and try this list with my Gargantuan Squiggoth. Am I overrating how good this seems to me on paper?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790731.page#10888088

gungo wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Buzzgob never had a KFF and probably never will. He just has the a rule that requires a wargear item he can‘t take.

While I agree his model isn’t equipped with one... his data sheet is exactly the same as the big Mek with kff datasheet from saga of the beast...
neither of them list kff as either an equipped item or as wargear and both of them have the kff listed as an ability...

If your claiming buzzgrob doesn’t have a kff because his ability can’t equip a kff as wargear then ironically the big Mek with kff can’t equip one either... I guess we will see what happens in the new fw codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TedNugent wrote:
Do you still take the KFF even with DS 6++?

We're still in a weird spot not knowing if the datasheet for the standard footmek is going to retain 5++ in combat.

Unless Buzzgob's datasheet explicitly says a 5++ invuln a la the Big Mek datasheet, the Big Mek's KFF is still technically better.

There was a new faq changing the kff ability on the big Mek with kff to be worded exactly the same as the other ork kff descriptions Including buzzgrob. So shooting only...

He didn't have one in 4th ed either. It's a typo which FW stuff has been plagued with. Jidmah is correct. never had one.

Elfric wrote:How are the Megadreads looking at the moment. They look like they have some viability run in an Goff list with megacharga, possible first turn charges. I know they dont benefit that much from strats. I also have a Supakannon which i think is powerful but seems really overpriced currently. Wasnt GW promising to update all Forgeworld stuff, what happened?

Evil Sunz would be better for that first turn charge. I own two and have tossed around ideas but having both crippled would mean 500 points of useless...

Wakshaani wrote:I'm starting to reconsider the Snakebites. .

I am also considering them, mostly the large of once in a while that Relic being max auto hit shots vs a horde. And the Stubborn.

tulun wrote:

But 10 warbikers and a snazz wagon... what a strange army overall

I've been thinking about this too. Each Warbike slightly worse odds to kill a primaris (just rolling on the desk while music at coffee break, I didn't mathhammer that out).

I've also been debating spamming volume of fire. Locally I'm facing an ad mec player and 36" Big Shootas can do some damage. Klaws for AT. Like it was in 5th ed.

Blackie wrote:
Not to mention that Ghaz will likely also have Makari and/or a Painboy with him.

I keep reading and hearing about a Painboy with Ghaz. how is that working since he isn't infantry?

Thanks kindly.

If you have a painboy of the same klan as ghaz nearby you can use the Medisquig stratagem to heal d3 wounds back on the boss. Due to the wording on that strat you can use it on non-vehicles if I recall.

It actually works on any character, so it can heal the wartrike or a stompa that was made a character as well.

 Jidmah wrote:
It actually works on any character, so it can heal the wartrike or a stompa that was made a character as well.

The wartrike one makes sense I suppose. Being it's just 2 lads sitting ontop of a rocket sled they're likely to catch a bullet or two. But the stompa? The more you try to envision it the funnier it gets. Maybe if the stompa is powered by a few orks on a hamster wheel it'd work.

If it was actually being used they would have faq'd it i guarantee you.
But the stompa is so terrible that even allowing it to heal 2d3 each round wouldnt matter.

Moment of salt...

Anyone seen the new rules for the buggies?

85 points for what's essentially an SJD that can't teleport. Jokes.

Oh, and they are bikes, so don't give up bring it down points.

Oh yeah. Im sure everybody saw that.

Busy getting my jaw off the floor. Even my marine friends are pissed at that thing's power level.

Btw an apothecary can revive it lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Oh yeah. Im sure everybody saw that.

Busy getting my jaw off the floor. Even my marine friends are pissed at that thing's power level.

Btw an apothecary can revive it lol

Eradicators are still frankly twice as good (double shots for half the points), but it looks like the SM top tier status isn't slowing down.

The Servo turret looks solid too. BS2+ 5 wounds 2+ save. Probably similar cost.

At least the ATVs are ugly as sin. Good lord, they look stupid lol.

I guess GW's gotta keep the Primaris gravy train going in the face of COVID. Can't have something as small as a global pandemic stop that from getting that sweet moolah.

Also, it seems like they're revising the older weapons now, since multi-meltas are shown to be revised with better rules and plasma before this only auto-kills on unmodded ones.

This gives me a vague hope that they'll revisit some of the Ork weapons that need touch ups (looking at you big shootas) or are rarely seen (grotzookas, somebody make them usuable again).

 Jidmah wrote:


I know, us orks don't like rules, but a couple of things should be said before starting:

- Do not discuss the number of releases other armies get in this thread. Especially not beakies.

Hi
I would appreciate some tips what can be included in a 500p list!
Also, since this is smaller than what is standard, do you have any tips of what can preform better in these kind of game?
It will be played on a 44''x44'' table.
I have thought about a Smasha Mek Gun heavy list in a Grot Mobs...

I mean, with 500 pts it's more a question. Do I want a balanced troop list or do I want to spam something. At that point it's just a case of supporting what you want to spam.

I guess if you want mek gun grot mobs maybe just some supporting chaff grots with your mek Gunz? Maybe a big Mek to perform the odd fixing on any guns with remaining wounds and to fill out your HQ selection? If you have them you could possibly take some grot tanks/Kanz to be your outriders?

I feel that with 500 points it's going to better to leverage having more numbers or mobility than going too heavy on the mek gunz. The main problem is that mek gunz are slow as dirt, and even if you do get proper sights on the enemy, you need numbers to contest objectives. Depending on how dense your terrain is as well, it'll make it very hit or miss, since pretty much almost all the best mek gun weapons are blast so if manage to get in close combat with you, you have a significant amount of your firepower shut down since they can't shoot into melee.

Yeah, smaller games are more mobility than firepower since you have to touch the objectives but still retain them if you move away. This is a rare time when grots are handy, but you can also do well with trukk boys. (two trukks, two 10-boy squads with shootas/big shoota, topped with a Klaw) … you don't even have to get out, just wait for it to blow up, or pour out if you need to melee someone off of a point.take it with sheer ObSec numbers.

The typical 30-boy melee mob is dangerous here, but it's also limited to stomping ONE THING while the rest of the board goes to the other side.

The old rule of 40% of your points should be troops (in this case 200) is still a good guideline. Orks are *super* squishy, so finding workarounds is key.

Or you know, just go deathskulls and get that juicy Obsec on units like Mega Nobs.

In small games, objective secured on a MA big mek or a weird boy can also be vicious.