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Beardedragon wrote:
Why are Bad Moonz not worth it anymore? Id guess the only reason Deathskulls would take over Bad Moonz is if you use quality soldiers and Meks. If you have a somewhat quantity of Boys with Shoota or even Morkanauts i would assume Bad Moonz can do just fine and maybe even better

Bad Moons simply does not give you enough to be worthwhile.
(Which is a shame, because i painted all my Orks as Bad Moons. :()

There are only 4 things that are even worth considering using Bad Moons for and all of them are still not good enough:

A SAG Mek can use the double shooting strategem, since we lost our Vigilus Detachment (for tournaments at least), that would be our only option to go full SAG with Big Killa Boss and shooting twice + more dakka. But SAG took a huge hit overall. Personally i`d just go with the DS SAG, at least you get some rerolls there.
And since you will run at least 1 other clan that means 2+ CP for taking a BM detachment.

Lootas are still ok with the shooting twice strategem, but with the point increases to lootas and grot it`s really hard to justify taking them. They eat lots of CP and you had to take more grots than we can pay points for and even that does not protect them all the time.
Only thing worth trying might be tellyporting 15 lootas and hoping you get your points back with 1 turn of shooting twice. But that is an 300 points + 5-6 CP investment. You certainly won`t get those 300+ points back shooting primaris with AP-1.

And if you think about taking 30 shoota boys, the BM trait will just give you about 14 wounds on T4 instead 12. Thats not even 1 more dead Primaris. Sure you get shooting twice, but still, thats not worth it. And everything that gets deleted by massed S4 Shootas is no real problem for Ork(boy)s anyways.
So you will be better of with Goffs, Evil Sunz or even DS for that 6++ if you want just 1 detachment and want to mix boys with buggies and stuff.

At last there are tankbustas, which will delete anything up to a castellan with shooting twice combined with more dakka and the granade strategem, but that means getting in granade range and being in the open, which will lead to the whole squad being deleted after that turn + an investment of 5+ CP.
Regular shooting might work easier, but since you can not use strategems (and abilities right now) in transporters, that means loosing that unit as well.
Might be wort tellyporting 15 BM Tankbustas if you know you`re up against knights, they will take down about 1 knight, but at the cost of 5 CP. (7 CP if you take them in an extra detachment since if you want to be campetetive you will need at least 1 other detachment.)

So overall, their trait works just on limited units, gives way to less to work with and comes with quite a heavy CP tax to do the good stuff.
And everything with less than 20 shots will always be better as DS mathematicly, which is basicly all vehicles and about every other unit we have.
That does not even count in the 6++,ObSec and DS strategems you get. Additionally the only thing that makes BM even worth it is their double shooting strategem, which you can use on only one (infantry) unit per turn. So if you go full BM that makes it even worse.
But hey, if anyone can show me a good way to use my Moon Skulls as Bad Moons again, i`d be happy to give them a comeback.
I run them as BM against newer or unexperienced players from time to time, but from a competetive point of view they are dead to me.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Badmoonz technically wasnt even that good except for Tankbustas fire twice and Lootas.
Lootas are overpriced garbage now even with the badmoonz stuff (they were iffy even with it before) and Tankbustas alone are not worth a badmoonz detachment.

You can still run them if you got a lot of dakka but the issue is most ork units actually DONT have high rate of fire, its just boyz/lootas that tend to fire 20+ dice everything else barely reaches 10 and per the math you need ~12 for badmoonz to outshine Deathskullz....and even then its barely outshining them.

I really wish badmoonz was reroll 1s to hit period. THAT would have been glorious. I hate kultures that completely dont even affect some units in a codex. Same problem with Goffs, but Goffs at least affect enough stuff to still dedicate part of the army to it.

Boyz with shootas
Lootas
Tank bustas
Flash Gitz
Chinorks with Rattler kannons (anything with rattler kannon really).

some of those units would already fill out the bulk of your army and its not like the rest of your army shooting less doesnt still benefit from rerolls of 1.

I hear what you guys are saying though. I wanted to make some Bad Moonz soldiers for 9th but i havent started painting them yet. Maybe ill go Evil Sunz or Deathskulls instead.

Still, having massed fire as Bad Moonz sounded fun

If you roll a lot of Boyz, some tank bustas in a Chinork with rattlerkannons, and maybe some Flash Gitz or Lootas (Lootas are still useful imo) then i still see bad moonz as being useful.

Next to that they have "Showing off" which is insanely powerful if you use it on a shooting unit.

Flash Gits aren't Bad moons, so they can't shoot twice.

Bad Moons are garbage. You need 18 shots just to expect 1 extra hit from those re-roll ones. It's a joke.

Beardedragon wrote:
Boyz with shootas
Lootas
Tank bustas
Flash Gitz
Chinorks with Rattler kannons (anything with rattler kannon really).

Boyz are not a great shooting unit to begin with
Lootas are expensive (300 for a unit) and require at least another 150 points worth of gretchin to keep them alive for one turn probably more. Not only does this cost almost all your CP, it also conflicts with taking shoota boyz
Tank bustas are a decent unit, but they die turn after they arrive. Also tons of CP required.
Flash gits can't ever be bad moons.
Chinorks with rattler cannons have an average of 14 shots and therefore benefit more from deff skulls than they do from bad moons, especially if you replace the big shoota with a KMB.

I hear what you guys are saying though. I wanted to make some Bad Moonz soldiers for 9th but i havent started painting them yet. Maybe ill go Evil Sunz or Deathskulls instead.

Honest advice, just paint them as whatever and pick the whatever culture you want to support your army. I paint all my units as whatever clan I feel like when painting them, some even have mixed clans within one unit.
If you like yellow and don't feel like pulling your hair out when painting that color, go for it. Pick whatever clan GW didn't feth up for your games - your opponents won't be able to tell ork clans apart anyways.

I play primarily Bad Moonz, and here's what works for me:

30 Boyz (shoota or not, because you're really looking to use Extra Stikkbombs) they do good everything work. Slugga boyz actually can be surprising in 8th if you managed to wrap and trap an unit.

Lootas (no explanation needed)
Tankbustas (same as Lootas)
Anything with a lot of Kustom Mega Weaponry (Mork, SJD, Dredds with all KMB) just makes them more safe and reliable.
All the flyers, They all pump out a solid number of shots, and the reroll 1s help them. It's not like you're losing anything by taking a burna bomma as any other clan, as we all know what it is there to do now.

While I know Bad Moonz isn't the most competitive out there, I think you can surprise your opponent with the consistency of your shooting if you pick your targets right.

I see a lot of people always talking up a single unit being your giant CP dump, but I usually find it's best to use More Dakka on one unit, use Showing Off on a separate unit, and more stikkbombs on a third. Same expenditure in a turn, but it varies your threat presentation, and I find it makes your enemies entire line shrink back from you, instead of blowing a huge hole in one flank.

Lootloader wrote:
...but I usually find it's best to use More Dakka on one unit, use Showing Off on a separate unit, and more stikkbombs on a third. Same expenditure in a turn, but it varies your threat presentation, and I find it makes your enemies entire line shrink back from you, instead of blowing a huge hole in one flank.

By using More Dakka and Showing Off on two different units, you're losing the benefit of a second round of shooting with More Dakka. I can't think of any situation where it's worth it to shoot yourself in the foot this way.

Both more dakka and more stikkbombs can also be used by other Clans.

Hell, Freebootas can be hitting on 4s or better.

It's a major misnomer Bad Moons have consistent shooting. Hell, they lose out to Evil Suns (Visions in the smoke), Deathskulls (2-3 command re-rolls PER unit), Freebootas (+1 to hit proc).

They are no longer a good clan in any competitive sense. The loss of massed CP, and ways of protecting their shoot twice units have shelved them until the next codex.

well.. i started not long ago and my army is so far comprised of little more than 1000 points of Goff painted units.

Mainly slugga boys, a pain boy, some mega nobs, nobs, a Big mek with KFF, weirdboy and a Deff Dread.

of the units i have yet to finish painting is Ghaz who will be done soon (and 4 Grot tanks i got for free from Kromlech + a Trukk i have yet to assemble)

Next to that I have a Chinork thats unpainted, but i dont know in which clan i should place him.


My idea was to make a small Goff Patrol or something with Ghaz, and then use another clan as the bulk of my army (bad moonz, Evil Sunz, Deathskulls). My first thought was Bad Moonz so i could have some tank bustas placed in a Chinork with rattler kannons teleporting in on round 2 to devastate the backline tanks or units, destroying my boys at a distance. Ive noticed that since much of my army is mainly melee focused, i get tarpitted in the middle of the board. I need ranged units or units like the Chinork with units inside of it to shoot the backline. Obviously i also need trukks but i only got a trukk package today.

Shoota boyz could also be useful i think.. i dont know.

But if Bad Moonz is suddenly so bad (why are they bad again? nothing much except Grots and lootas cost have been changed from 8th to 9th? they seemed good in 8th) then i need to go either the Evil Sunz route, or Deathskulls.

Im not sure which honestly.

Beardedragon wrote:
well.. i started not long ago and my army is so far comprised of little more than 1000 points of Goff painted units.

Mainly slugga boys, a pain boy, some mega nobs, nobs, a Big mek with KFF, weirdboy and a Deff Dread.

of the units i have yet to finish painting is Ghaz who will be done soon (and 4 Grot tanks i got for free from Kromlech + a Trukk i have yet to assemble)

Next to that I have a Chinork thats unpainted, but i dont know in which clan i should place him.


My idea was to make a small Goff Patrol or something with Ghaz, and then use another clan as the bulk of my army (bad moonz, Evil Sunz, Deathskulls). My first thought was Bad Moonz so i could have some tank bustas placed in a Chinork with rattler kannons teleporting in on round 2 to devastate the backline tanks or units, destroying my boys at a distance. Ive noticed that since much of my army is mainly melee focused, i get tarpitted in the middle of the board. I need ranged units or units like the Chinork with units inside of it to shoot the backline. Obviously i also need trukks but i only got a trukk package today.

Shoota boyz could also be useful i think.. i dont know.

But if Bad Moonz is suddenly so bad (why are they bad again? nothing much except Grots and lootas cost have been changed from 8th to 9th? they seemed good in 8th) then i need to go either the Evil Sunz route, or Deathskulls.

Im not sure which honestly.

Bad moons died when our dirt cheap battalions died and the CP that they generated went away. Along with Lootas and Grots becoming relatively very expensive.

If you want a "hammer" for your Goff detachment, I would recommend a decent sized mob of Killsaw MANz. They tend to vaporise everything they come into melee range of, especially when backed by Ghaz, a Biggest Boss or the MANz melee strat.

tulun wrote:
Both more dakka and more stikkbombs can also be used by other Clans.

Hell, Freebootas can be hitting on 4s or better.

It's a major misnomer Bad Moons have consistent shooting. Hell, they lose out to Evil Suns (Visions in the smoke), Deathskulls (2-3 command re-rolls PER unit), Freebootas (+1 to hit proc).

They are no longer a good clan in any competitive sense. The loss of massed CP, and ways of protecting their shoot twice units have shelved them until the next codex.

This. Their WL trait is largely redundant now that we have the biggest boss upgrade, their relic adds questionable value now that the biker HQ's have been relegated to legends since the foot HQ's will get limited use of it, while the strat is no longer viable with most units that used it.

Kind of sucks to see almost half the klanz of the Ork codex (more if you want to include subkulturs) being shelved. Based on what we've seen for the new Necron dynasty rules they'll give more depth the next time around than just 6+ FNP and reroll ones to hit in shooting.

Lootloader wrote:
I play primarily Bad Moonz, and here's what works for me:

30 Boyz (shoota or not, because you're really looking to use Extra Stikkbombs) they do good everything work. Slugga boyz actually can be surprising in 8th if you managed to wrap and trap an unit.

Lootas (no explanation needed)
Tankbustas (same as Lootas)
Anything with a lot of Kustom Mega Weaponry (Mork, SJD, Dredds with all KMB) just makes them more safe and reliable.
All the flyers, They all pump out a solid number of shots, and the reroll 1s help them. It's not like you're losing anything by taking a burna bomma as any other clan, as we all know what it is there to do now.

BM Dakkajet vs. DS Dakkajet is 2,06 vs. 2,04 dead Primaris, so no real difference here. Also you get that 6++ and your trait works all the time.
All other planes and vehicles are worse if you do the math. DS is always better.
That "safety" bonus for BM is a trap. That occasional wound does not matter at all, and that single DS reroll is enough for everything KMB and the like 99% of the time.

Nym wrote:By using More Dakka and Showing Off on two different units, you're losing the benefit of a second round of shooting with More Dakka. I can't think of any situation where it's worth it to shoot yourself in the foot this way.

Well it can make sense if you want to get one unit BS5+ against -1 to hit and shoot twice with some other unit you really need to shoot twice.
But moar dakka is actually not that good if you make the math, unless you would hit on 6+ otherwise or really need to max out the damage. It´s less than a 6% boost for 2 CP.

Beardedragon wrote:My first thought was Bad Moonz so i could have some tank bustas placed in a Chinork with rattler kannons teleporting in on round 2 to devastate the backline tanks or units, destroying my boys at a distance.

You can`t use abilities and strategems inside transports, which makes them quite worse and you can`t use showing off.

Beardedragon wrote:Ive noticed that since much of my army is mainly melee focused, i get tarpitted in the middle of the board.

Thats the wrong approach, since you want to control the middle objectives with boys.
"I`m not tarpitted in here with you, you are tarpitted in here with me!"

 Grotrebel wrote:

Lootloader wrote:
I play primarily Bad Moonz, and here's what works for me:

30 Boyz (shoota or not, because you're really looking to use Extra Stikkbombs) they do good everything work. Slugga boyz actually can be surprising in 8th if you managed to wrap and trap an unit.

Lootas (no explanation needed)
Tankbustas (same as Lootas)
Anything with a lot of Kustom Mega Weaponry (Mork, SJD, Dredds with all KMB) just makes them more safe and reliable.
All the flyers, They all pump out a solid number of shots, and the reroll 1s help them. It's not like you're losing anything by taking a burna bomma as any other clan, as we all know what it is there to do now.

BM Dakkajet vs. DS Dakkajet is 2,06 vs. 2,04 dead Primaris, so no real difference here. Also you get that 6++ and your trait works all the time.
All other planes and vehicles are worse if you do the math. DS is always better.
That "safety" bonus for BM is a trap. That occasional wound does not matter at all, and that single DS reroll is enough for everything KMB and the like 99% of the time.

Nym wrote:By using More Dakka and Showing Off on two different units, you're losing the benefit of a second round of shooting with More Dakka. I can't think of any situation where it's worth it to shoot yourself in the foot this way.

Well it can make sense if you want to get one unit BS5+ against -1 to hit and shoot twice with some other unit you really need to shoot twice.
But moar dakka is actually not that good if you make the math, unless you would hit on 6+ otherwise or really need to max out the damage. It´s less than a 6% boost for 2 CP.

Beardedragon wrote:My first thought was Bad Moonz so i could have some tank bustas placed in a Chinork with rattler kannons teleporting in on round 2 to devastate the backline tanks or units, destroying my boys at a distance.

You can`t use abilities and strategems inside transports, which makes them quite worse and you can`t use showing off.

Beardedragon wrote:Ive noticed that since much of my army is mainly melee focused, i get tarpitted in the middle of the board.

Thats the wrong approach, since you want to control the middle objectives with boys.
"I`m not tarpitted in here with you, you are tarpitted in here with me!"

I cant use stratagems, correct, but both my Tank bustas and my Chinork Rattler kannon can still reroll their 1s if i went Bad Moonz.

And if i run very little ranged units, then i cant at all, deal with backlines heavy firing in to my lines. Yea if im in combat i cant get ranged nuked but often they just retreat backwards once after combat, leaving me exposed to getting killed, or i dont have room to get all my squads in.

there are plenty of ways for them to destroy me even though im in melee, and i need something that can terrorize their backlines.

I'd like to point towards the discussion rules.

The facts are clearly stacked against bad moons and deffskulls are without any doubt better or equal for almost every unit in the codex and provides an irrelevant buff to all others.The combos that have kept bad moons competitive have disappeared in 9th, with the exception suicide tankbustas which mostly was just an outlet for lists who didn't have any other way to capitalize on their 18CP.

It might sound harsh, but from a competitive point of view there currently is no reason to run bad moons, and therefore there is no need to discuss this any further. This is not a matter of opinion.

If you want to discuss how to make bad moons work despite this, that's a different topic and a discussion worth having, but we don't need to go in circles over something this clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lootloader wrote:
I see a lot of people always talking up a single unit being your giant CP dump, but I usually find it's best to use More Dakka on one unit, use Showing Off on a separate unit, and more stikkbombs on a third. Same expenditure in a turn, but it varies your threat presentation, and I find it makes your enemies entire line shrink back from you, instead of blowing a huge hole in one flank.

Unless you are overkilling your target, stacking all stratagems on the same unit is better, because their buff multiplies. For example, Moar Dakka increases your damage to 116.66%, showing off to
200%. Both on the same unit increase your damage to 233.33%.

In response to previous posts to my request for advice regarding Harlequins, I'll be sticking to a buggy list partly because I feel that going mass boyz will be too tedious and less flexible with regards to missions. As such, here is my draft list for review before I finalize it for next week:


Keep in mind this list is partly to do with model limitations, which is why I haven't taken a maxed out unit of Kustom Boosta Blastas. I guess the main question for me is if a Big Mek with KFF would be worth it at all given that everything in my army already has a 6+ invuln, and that a lot of the wounds I'll be suffering will be likely from mortal wounds which would bypass that anyways. There's also the issue that I don't think a Big Mek with KFF would be able to cover enough of my buggies without blowing the strat to extend the range T1, while also falling behind the rest of my army. Also, my logic behind the Shokk Jump Dragsta is that they're basically there for potential character sniping and contesting his backline objectives, since Harlequins have a limited model count and will likely not have much of a backfield that can withstand a dragsta's shooting and a charge backed with Ramming Speed. The Kommandos are there to help get Linebreaker and Engage On All Fronts, while also acting as additional backup for dragstas on the prowl.

The trukk boyz are there as a tax, though I was considering taking a patrol and cutting out the troop tax for some more buggies (though that would require proxying probably).

Let me know what ya ladz think!

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd like to point towards the discussion rules.

The facts are clearly stacked against bad moons and deffskulls are without any doubt better or equal for almost every unit in the codex and provides an irrelevant buff to all others.The combos that have kept bad moons competitive have disappeared in 9th, with the exception suicide tankbustas which mostly was just an outlet for lists who didn't have any other way to capitalize on their 18CP.

It might sound harsh, but from a competitive point of view there currently is no reason to run bad moons, and therefore there is no need to discuss this any further. This is not a matter of opinion.

If you want to discuss how to make bad moons work despite this, that's a different topic and a discussion worth having, but we don't need to go in circles over something this clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lootloader wrote:
I see a lot of people always talking up a single unit being your giant CP dump, but I usually find it's best to use More Dakka on one unit, use Showing Off on a separate unit, and more stikkbombs on a third. Same expenditure in a turn, but it varies your threat presentation, and I find it makes your enemies entire line shrink back from you, instead of blowing a huge hole in one flank.

Unless you are overkilling your target, stacking all stratagems on the same unit is better, because their buff multiplies. For example, Moar Dakka increases your damage to 116.66%, showing off to
200%. Both on the same unit increase your damage to 233.33%.

im new and im asking to be convinced, and at first you guys didnt convince me.

So yes, i can, if i please, ask how Bad Moonz can work, in a thread related to what is good and bad within the Orkish army. The entire thread is literally about what is good and what isnt, what works how well and why. This isnt going in circles, its debating. Furthermore, i am more adamant on hearing arguments against bad moonz because thats what i initially wanted to go for. Having to change over to Evil Sunz or Deathskulls thus require convincing.

And no, its not clear, not to me, who is new. Not to me who dont even play Bad Moonz and is looking for arguments as to why i shouldnt go Bad Moonz. Ive seen plenty of 8th edition videos of Bad Moonz being good, so when suddenly 9th hits, and i dont see any real changes to shooting and the only changes being grots are more expensive and lootas are too, that made me question why on earth Bad Moonz should suddenly go from being good to terrible.


So maybe it makes sense to you guys, but it didnt to me. And id like to have more than one guy stating why they suck ass so i kept on till i was convinced.

Which i became after my last message but what ever. I now get they arent good and i should possibly go death skulls.

like your own post: "The facts are clearly stacked against bad moons and deffskulls are without any doubt better or equal for almost every unit in the codex and provides an irrelevant buff to all others.The combos that have kept bad moons competitive have disappeared in 9th, with the exception suicide tankbustas which mostly was just an outlet for lists who didn't have any other way to capitalize on their 18CP." Which also helped to clarify to a noob (me) why Bad Moonz wouldnt work.


EDIT:
Was your post even directed towards me? im so confused. i thought you talked about me asking about Bad Moonz. If it wasnt then im sorry and ive made a terrible mistake.

Nym wrote:

Lootloader wrote:
...but I usually find it's best to use More Dakka on one unit, use Showing Off on a separate unit, and more stikkbombs on a third. Same expenditure in a turn, but it varies your threat presentation, and I find it makes your enemies entire line shrink back from you, instead of blowing a huge hole in one flank.

By using More Dakka and Showing Off on two different units, you're losing the benefit of a second round of shooting with More Dakka. I can't think of any situation where it's worth it to shoot yourself in the foot this way.

A good example being that Showing Off can only be applied to infantry, whereas More Dakka can be applied to any unit. So something I've been doing recently is using Showing Off on my Tankbustas after they disembark from a transport, while I use More Dakka on my morkanaut. The Tankbustas are going to kill whatever they shoot at 80% of the time anyway without the buff, so it's just overkill. That's just one easy example, but there can be many more based upon unit placement and position, enemy army tricks, etc etc. I'm in no way suggesting it's the right way to go all the time, but it has value.

Jidmah wrote:I'd like to point towards the discussion rules.

The facts are clearly stacked against bad moons and deffskulls are without any doubt better or equal for almost every unit in the codex and provides an irrelevant buff to all others.The combos that have kept bad moons competitive have disappeared in 9th, with the exception suicide tankbustas which mostly was just an outlet for lists who didn't have any other way to capitalize on their 18CP.

It might sound harsh, but from a competitive point of view there currently is no reason to run bad moons, and therefore there is no need to discuss this any further. This is not a matter of opinion.

If you want to discuss how to make bad moons work despite this, that's a different topic and a discussion worth having, but we don't need to go in circles over something this clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lootloader wrote:
I see a lot of people always talking up a single unit being your giant CP dump, but I usually find it's best to use More Dakka on one unit, use Showing Off on a separate unit, and more stikkbombs on a third. Same expenditure in a turn, but it varies your threat presentation, and I find it makes your enemies entire line shrink back from you, instead of blowing a huge hole in one flank.

Unless you are overkilling your target, stacking all stratagems on the same unit is better, because their buff multiplies. For example, Moar Dakka increases your damage to 116.66%, showing off to
200%. Both on the same unit increase your damage to 233.33%.

I wasn't meaning to derail the conversation so hard into Bad Moonz territory, only more so a few people had asked questions about it, so I was trying to add a bit to it. Sorry if I've broken any discussion rules. I certainly wasn't implying that they were the best, or the right call, only that they still have play to them, and you could do worse.

And yes, for the strat buffing there is no mathematical denying that it pays off, but as I already said, if your unit was already going to delete the enemy unit, why pay 2 CP to delete it harder? Save the CP for a further trick down the road, or use it to buff something else up.

Edit: spelling

Beardedragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd like to point towards the discussion rules.

The facts are clearly stacked against bad moons and deffskulls are without any doubt better or equal for almost every unit in the codex and provides an irrelevant buff to all others.The combos that have kept bad moons competitive have disappeared in 9th, with the exception suicide tankbustas which mostly was just an outlet for lists who didn't have any other way to capitalize on their 18CP.

It might sound harsh, but from a competitive point of view there currently is no reason to run bad moons, and therefore there is no need to discuss this any further. This is not a matter of opinion.

If you want to discuss how to make bad moons work despite this, that's a different topic and a discussion worth having, but we don't need to go in circles over something this clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lootloader wrote:
I see a lot of people always talking up a single unit being your giant CP dump, but I usually find it's best to use More Dakka on one unit, use Showing Off on a separate unit, and more stikkbombs on a third. Same expenditure in a turn, but it varies your threat presentation, and I find it makes your enemies entire line shrink back from you, instead of blowing a huge hole in one flank.

Unless you are overkilling your target, stacking all stratagems on the same unit is better, because their buff multiplies. For example, Moar Dakka increases your damage to 116.66%, showing off to
200%. Both on the same unit increase your damage to 233.33%.

im new and im asking to be convinced, and at first you guys didnt convince me.

So yes, i can, if i bloody well please, ask how Bad Moonz can work, in a thread related to what is good and bad within the Orkish army. The entire thread is literally about what is good and what isnt, what works how well and why. This isnt going in circles, its debating. Furthermore, i am more adamant on hearing arguments against bad moonz because thats what i initially wanted to go for. Having to change over to Evil Sunz or Deathskulls thus require convincing.

And no, dude, its not clear, not to me, who is new. Not to me who dont even play Bad Moonz and is looking for arguments as to why i shouldnt go Bad Moonz. Ive seen plenty of 8th edition videos of Bad Moonz being good, so when suddenly 9th hits, and i dont see any real changes to shooting and the only changes being grots are more expensive and lootas are too, that made me question why on earth Bad Moonz should suddenly go from being good to terrible.


So maybe it makes sense to you guys, but it didnt to me. And id like to have more than one guy stating why they suck ass so i kept on till i was convinced.

Which i became after my last message but what ever. I now get they arent good and i should possibly go death skulls.

like your own post: "The facts are clearly stacked against bad moons and deffskulls are without any doubt better or equal for almost every unit in the codex and provides an irrelevant buff to all others.The combos that have kept bad moons competitive have disappeared in 9th, with the exception suicide tankbustas which mostly was just an outlet for lists who didn't have any other way to capitalize on their 18CP." Which also helped to clarify to a noob why Bad Moonz wouldnt work.

Look Beardeddragon, with all due respect, the OP (Jidmah) made this thread with specific rules, especially with the context of how faction threads work now with the 9th ed release, so you becoming indignant with the conversation being nudged back on track is kinda rude especially when people have been giving you a lot of reasons that you yourself admit eventually convinced you to accepting that BM is overall not competitive. I feel like given how little you know about Orks in general that you should read more thoroughly before you post and get a few games in first, it's one thing to be excited and want to find out the combos immediately, but without practical experience, you won't really see why veteran Ork players opinions seem to be so set until you play and see the basis behind those opinions.

 Grimskul wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd like to point towards the discussion rules.

The facts are clearly stacked against bad moons and deffskulls are without any doubt better or equal for almost every unit in the codex and provides an irrelevant buff to all others.The combos that have kept bad moons competitive have disappeared in 9th, with the exception suicide tankbustas which mostly was just an outlet for lists who didn't have any other way to capitalize on their 18CP.

It might sound harsh, but from a competitive point of view there currently is no reason to run bad moons, and therefore there is no need to discuss this any further. This is not a matter of opinion.

If you want to discuss how to make bad moons work despite this, that's a different topic and a discussion worth having, but we don't need to go in circles over something this clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lootloader wrote:
I see a lot of people always talking up a single unit being your giant CP dump, but I usually find it's best to use More Dakka on one unit, use Showing Off on a separate unit, and more stikkbombs on a third. Same expenditure in a turn, but it varies your threat presentation, and I find it makes your enemies entire line shrink back from you, instead of blowing a huge hole in one flank.

Unless you are overkilling your target, stacking all stratagems on the same unit is better, because their buff multiplies. For example, Moar Dakka increases your damage to 116.66%, showing off to
200%. Both on the same unit increase your damage to 233.33%.

im new and im asking to be convinced, and at first you guys didnt convince me.

So yes, i can, if i bloody well please, ask how Bad Moonz can work, in a thread related to what is good and bad within the Orkish army. The entire thread is literally about what is good and what isnt, what works how well and why. This isnt going in circles, its debating. Furthermore, i am more adamant on hearing arguments against bad moonz because thats what i initially wanted to go for. Having to change over to Evil Sunz or Deathskulls thus require convincing.

And no, dude, its not clear, not to me, who is new. Not to me who dont even play Bad Moonz and is looking for arguments as to why i shouldnt go Bad Moonz. Ive seen plenty of 8th edition videos of Bad Moonz being good, so when suddenly 9th hits, and i dont see any real changes to shooting and the only changes being grots are more expensive and lootas are too, that made me question why on earth Bad Moonz should suddenly go from being good to terrible.


So maybe it makes sense to you guys, but it didnt to me. And id like to have more than one guy stating why they suck ass so i kept on till i was convinced.

Which i became after my last message but what ever. I now get they arent good and i should possibly go death skulls.

like your own post: "The facts are clearly stacked against bad moons and deffskulls are without any doubt better or equal for almost every unit in the codex and provides an irrelevant buff to all others.The combos that have kept bad moons competitive have disappeared in 9th, with the exception suicide tankbustas which mostly was just an outlet for lists who didn't have any other way to capitalize on their 18CP." Which also helped to clarify to a noob why Bad Moonz wouldnt work.

Look Beardeddragon, with all due respect, the OP (Jidmah) made this thread with specific rules, especially with the context of how faction threads work now with the 9th ed release, so you becoming indignant with the conversation being nudged back on track is kinda rude especially when people have been giving you a lot of reasons that you yourself admit eventually convinced you to accepting that BM is overall not competitive. I feel like given how little you know about Orks in general that you should read more thoroughly before you post and get a few games in first, it's one thing to be excited and want to find out the combos immediately, but without practical experience, you won't really see why veteran Ork players opinions seem to be so set until you play and see the basis behind those opinions.

I do have a few games in, just not as Bad Moonz and clearly i never will because they suck and i dont want to go for them.

Also i dont know which rules i broke? i did not intend to break rules. Im not talking about army compositions, im asking for arguments as to why Bad Moonz sucks.

I wouldnt have been convinced if i hadnt kept on as one person stating an opinion isnt enough to deter me away from thinking a specific thing. I have strong opinions about things and it takes convincing for me to accept im wrong. I was not ready to have Bad moonz being terrible as i had already set myself up to using them as a main force. No one wants to be proven wrong, but i clearly was proven wrong.

But i wouldnt have known i was wrong untill my last message. But correct, theres no need to debate it any further as i am convinced. I didnt really need anyone telling me not to debate it any further to.. not debate it any further though.

Lootloader wrote:
I wasn't meaning to derail the conversation so hard into Bad Moonz territory, only more so a few people had asked questions about it, so I was trying to add a bit to it. Sorry if I've broken any discussion rules. I certainly wasn't implying that they were the best, or the right call, only that they still have play to them, and you could do worse.

And yes, for the strat buffing there is no mathematical denying that it pays off, but as I already said, if your unit was already going to delete the enemy unit, why pay 2 CP to delete it harder? Save the CP for a further trick down the road, or use it to buff something else up.

Edit: spelling

This wasn't directed at you. But yeah, no need for overkill. Keep in mind that "showin' off" allows you to target two different units, most of the time there is no reason to not shoot both with the benefit of moar dakka.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beardedragon wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Look Beardeddragon, with all due respect, the OP (Jidmah) made this thread with specific rules, especially with the context of how faction threads work now with the 9th ed release, so you becoming indignant with the conversation being nudged back on track is kinda rude especially when people have been giving you a lot of reasons that you yourself admit eventually convinced you to accepting that BM is overall not competitive. I feel like given how little you know about Orks in general that you should read more thoroughly before you post and get a few games in first, it's one thing to be excited and want to find out the combos immediately, but without practical experience, you won't really see why veteran Ork players opinions seem to be so set until you play and see the basis behind those opinions.

I do have a few games in, just not as Bad Moonz and clearly i never will because they suck and i dont want to go for them.

Also i dont know which rules i broke? i did not intend to break rules. Im not talking about army compositions, im asking for arguments as to why Bad Moonz sucks.

I wouldnt have been convinced if i hadnt kept on as one person stating an opinion isnt enough to deter me away from thinking a specific thing. I have strong opinions about things and it takes convincing for me to accept im wrong. I was not ready to have Bad moonz being terrible as i had already set myself up to using them as a main force. No one wants to be proven wrong, but i clearly was proven wrong.

But i wouldnt have known i was wrong untill my last message. But correct, theres no need to debate it any further as i am convinced. I didnt really need anyone telling me not to debate it any further to.. not debate it any further though.

It's not our job to convince you to change your opinion. As you can probably tell from my signature, I'm not a fan of people with irrational and baseless opinions.

This is a forum for discussion. Discussions work by providing arguments and counter-arguments. You are expected to back up your arguments.
Deathskulls vs Bad Moons is math and logic, it's not an opinion. You get at least two re-rolls for each unit potentially a third for rolling damage, in addition to other benefits. A bad moons unit gets one re-roll for every six shots. This has been explained to you by multiple people multiple times. You clearly refused to accept this, which prompted me to remind you there is no point arguing hard facts because they don't match your opinion. It also would have been good form to do the math yourself (or ask how to do it) before simply claiming that certain units would awesome as bad moons.

And shooting twice is infantry only...

Only shooting infantry worth mention are tankbustas and lootas only.

Don ´ t even thing about shooting shootaboyz twice. Twice nothing is still nothing.

Jidmah wrote:

Lootloader wrote:
I wasn't meaning to derail the conversation so hard into Bad Moonz territory, only more so a few people had asked questions about it, so I was trying to add a bit to it. Sorry if I've broken any discussion rules. I certainly wasn't implying that they were the best, or the right call, only that they still have play to them, and you could do worse.

And yes, for the strat buffing there is no mathematical denying that it pays off, but as I already said, if your unit was already going to delete the enemy unit, why pay 2 CP to delete it harder? Save the CP for a further trick down the road, or use it to buff something else up.

Edit: spelling

This wasn't directed at you. But yeah, no need for overkill. Keep in mind that "showin' off" allows you to target two different units, most of the time there is no reason to not shoot both with the benefit of moar dakka.

Ok cool, was worried I had fallen in to a blunder I was unaware of. Yeah, Showing Off on a More Dakka'd unit at two separate targets is like THE bread and butter combo. It's just not always the tactically best in my experience. Lot's of times it's been overkill to both targets, whereas then on an unit elsewhere on the board I end up short on damage output, so I have started to really spread out the buffs to eke out that slight advantage. That's the beauty of Orks, with the right units, you throw so many dice, the averages tend to really come out.

Tomsug wrote:And shooting twice is infantry only...

Only shooting infantry worth mention are tankbustas and lootas only.

Don ´ t even thing about shooting shootaboyz twice. Twice nothing is still nothing.

This hits close to home for me. I remember the weekend that the ork codex released for 8th, I played a game against an Ad Mech opponent. He had a vanguard unit in cover, and I shot 30 Shoota Boyz twice at the same unit, and just BARELY cleared it. I learned not to waste the CP on Shoota boyz after that.

In theory, you could have a unit of nobz shooting a bunch of skorcha or rokkits twice, or have burnas do a double-barbecue, but sadly all those units are pretty bad.

 Jidmah wrote:

Lootloader wrote:
I wasn't meaning to derail the conversation so hard into Bad Moonz territory, only more so a few people had asked questions about it, so I was trying to add a bit to it. Sorry if I've broken any discussion rules. I certainly wasn't implying that they were the best, or the right call, only that they still have play to them, and you could do worse.

And yes, for the strat buffing there is no mathematical denying that it pays off, but as I already said, if your unit was already going to delete the enemy unit, why pay 2 CP to delete it harder? Save the CP for a further trick down the road, or use it to buff something else up.

Edit: spelling

This wasn't directed at you. But yeah, no need for overkill. Keep in mind that "showin' off" allows you to target two different units, most of the time there is no reason to not shoot both with the benefit of moar dakka.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beardedragon wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Look Beardeddragon, with all due respect, the OP (Jidmah) made this thread with specific rules, especially with the context of how faction threads work now with the 9th ed release, so you becoming indignant with the conversation being nudged back on track is kinda rude especially when people have been giving you a lot of reasons that you yourself admit eventually convinced you to accepting that BM is overall not competitive. I feel like given how little you know about Orks in general that you should read more thoroughly before you post and get a few games in first, it's one thing to be excited and want to find out the combos immediately, but without practical experience, you won't really see why veteran Ork players opinions seem to be so set until you play and see the basis behind those opinions.

I do have a few games in, just not as Bad Moonz and clearly i never will because they suck and i dont want to go for them.

Also i dont know which rules i broke? i did not intend to break rules. Im not talking about army compositions, im asking for arguments as to why Bad Moonz sucks.

I wouldnt have been convinced if i hadnt kept on as one person stating an opinion isnt enough to deter me away from thinking a specific thing. I have strong opinions about things and it takes convincing for me to accept im wrong. I was not ready to have Bad moonz being terrible as i had already set myself up to using them as a main force. No one wants to be proven wrong, but i clearly was proven wrong.

But i wouldnt have known i was wrong untill my last message. But correct, theres no need to debate it any further as i am convinced. I didnt really need anyone telling me not to debate it any further to.. not debate it any further though.

It's not our job to convince you to change your opinion. As you can probably tell from my signature, I'm not a fan of people with irrational and baseless opinions.

This is a forum for discussion. Discussions work by providing arguments and counter-arguments. You are expected to back up your arguments.
Deathskulls vs Bad Moons is math and logic, it's not an opinion. You get at least two re-rolls for each unit potentially a third for rolling damage, in addition to other benefits. A bad moons unit gets one re-roll for every six shots. This has been explained to you by multiple people multiple times. You clearly refused to accept this, which prompted me to remind you there is no point arguing hard facts because they don't match your opinion.

So i suck at debating what do you want me to do.

But whos going in circles now? I already accepted it earlier yet here you are explaining it to me again. I had already moved on.

Also as long as i cant wrap my head around that math "fact" (i state "fact" because people sometimes think what they're saying is a fact when it isnt) then i cant convince myself its correct or not.

Put it this way, i cant tell if thats a fact or not and i suck at math to begin with. One person states: its a math fact that DeathSkulls are better than Bad Moonz due to rerolling ones contra each unit being able to roll one die in each phase of Shooting phase/close range.

I think: Sounds interesting but i cant disprove nor varify if its correct, not from my computer chair here anyway. A person stating hes making a fact, doesnt always make it a fact. In this case i would need more people to say: yea, this is correct which would make me give in, which i did.

And quite clearly people agree with the consensus that Death skulls make more sense mathmatically speaking, so i agree.
But i have the right to not trust people right away. Be honest, you've been on the forum for a long time, i can see you have many posts. Have all the people you've responded to been correct in their assumptions at all times? Have you never responded to someone who you thought were wrong? You probably have met people that were wrong on this forum, and i wouldnt know if you were correct or not.

so i figured: fine, i accept your answer, but what does others say?

And then suddenly someone starts talking about a Bad Moonz list working and i thought: okay hey, so they do work? I was never looking for hardcore competitive just something i can win sometimes with in my local game store. So when someone starts listing a Bad Moonz clan and how they can work, that made me think that maybe Bad Moonz are just somewhat okayish (but outshined by DS and ES) but not directly terrible.

hence why the posts became more numberous from my side than what i intended




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomsug wrote:
And shooting twice is infantry only...

Only shooting infantry worth mention are tankbustas and lootas only.

Don ´ t even thing about shooting shootaboyz twice. Twice nothing is still nothing.

This too is very good evidence because i intended to use my Chinork warkopta with Rattler Kannons and get 2 Chinorks total and use them as Gunships. I forgot they couldnt use the shooting twice stratagem (they still get reroll 1s but still) so thats another point to make towards me not wanting to use Bad Moonz because what i wanted to do, cant be done anymore. not as well as i wanted at least.

 Grimskul wrote:
In response to previous posts to my request for advice regarding Harlequins, I'll be sticking to a buggy list partly because I feel that going mass boyz will be too tedious and less flexible with regards to missions. As such, here is my draft list for review before I finalize it for next week:

Spoiler:

Overall CP: 12+1-4 = 9 CP

Ork Deffskullz Battalion Detachment (3CP Refunded because of Warlord):

HQ - 208

Deffkilla Wartrike with Gork's Roar - 125

Warboss with Killa Klaw, Biggest Boss Upgrade, Attack Squig, Kombi-Rokkit
Warlord Trait: Follow Me Ladz! - 83

Troops - 255

10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Big Choppa - 85

10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Big Choppa - 85

10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Big Choppa - 85

Dedicated Transports - 195

3 x Trukk - 195

Elites - 135

5 Kommandos, Nob - 45

5 Kommandos, Nob - 45

5 Kommandos, Nob - 45

Fast Attack - 510

2 x Mega-Trakk Skrapjets with Korkscrew - 220

2 x Kustom Boosta Blasta - 180

2 x Shokk Jump Dragsta with Gyroscopic Whirlygig - 220

Heavy Support - 160

2 Smasha Gunz - 80

Keep in mind this list is partly to do with model limitations, which is why I haven't taken a maxed out unit of Kustom Boosta Blastas. I guess the main question for me is if a Big Mek with KFF would be worth it at all given that everything in my army already has a 6+ invuln, and that a lot of the wounds I'll be suffering will be likely from mortal wounds which would bypass that anyways. There's also the issue that I don't think a Big Mek with KFF would be able to cover enough of my buggies without blowing the strat to extend the range T1, while also falling behind the rest of my army. Also, my logic behind the Shokk Jump Dragsta is that they're basically there for potential character sniping and contesting his backline objectives, since Harlequins have a limited model count and will likely not have much of a backfield that can withstand a dragsta's shooting and a charge backed with Ramming Speed. The Kommandos are there to help get Linebreaker and Engage On All Fronts, while also acting as additional backup for dragstas on the prowl.

The trukk boyz are there as a tax, though I was considering taking a patrol and cutting out the troop tax for some more buggies (though that would require proxying probably).

Let me know what ya ladz think!

Just a few bits;

I arm my DS boys with Choppas over shootas, but that is ultimately personally preference.

I think that a kommando squad with a nob is 50 something points rather than 45, as it must take the Klaw if I remember rightly.

It looks like you've taken two smasha guns, but paid for four (it says Heavy Support 160, but only lists two smasha guns at 80 points). How many guns are you actually running?


Other than that, I like it. I personally wouldn't take a big mek for a KFF as it will only apply to one trukk, but you might get some use out of the jet that has a KFF if you're going all in and trying to get in the opponent's grill turn one.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
In response to previous posts to my request for advice regarding Harlequins, I'll be sticking to a buggy list partly because I feel that going mass boyz will be too tedious and less flexible with regards to missions. As such, here is my draft list for review before I finalize it for next week:

Spoiler:

Overall CP: 12+1-4 = 9 CP

Ork Deffskullz Battalion Detachment (3CP Refunded because of Warlord):

HQ - 208

Deffkilla Wartrike with Gork's Roar - 125

Warboss with Killa Klaw, Biggest Boss Upgrade, Attack Squig, Kombi-Rokkit
Warlord Trait: Follow Me Ladz! - 83

Troops - 255

10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Big Choppa - 85

10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Big Choppa - 85

10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Big Choppa - 85

Dedicated Transports - 195

3 x Trukk - 195

Elites - 135

5 Kommandos, Nob - 45

5 Kommandos, Nob - 45

5 Kommandos, Nob - 45

Fast Attack - 510

2 x Mega-Trakk Skrapjets with Korkscrew - 220

2 x Kustom Boosta Blasta - 180

2 x Shokk Jump Dragsta with Gyroscopic Whirlygig - 220

Heavy Support - 160

2 Smasha Gunz - 80

Keep in mind this list is partly to do with model limitations, which is why I haven't taken a maxed out unit of Kustom Boosta Blastas. I guess the main question for me is if a Big Mek with KFF would be worth it at all given that everything in my army already has a 6+ invuln, and that a lot of the wounds I'll be suffering will be likely from mortal wounds which would bypass that anyways. There's also the issue that I don't think a Big Mek with KFF would be able to cover enough of my buggies without blowing the strat to extend the range T1, while also falling behind the rest of my army. Also, my logic behind the Shokk Jump Dragsta is that they're basically there for potential character sniping and contesting his backline objectives, since Harlequins have a limited model count and will likely not have much of a backfield that can withstand a dragsta's shooting and a charge backed with Ramming Speed. The Kommandos are there to help get Linebreaker and Engage On All Fronts, while also acting as additional backup for dragstas on the prowl.

The trukk boyz are there as a tax, though I was considering taking a patrol and cutting out the troop tax for some more buggies (though that would require proxying probably).

Let me know what ya ladz think!

Just a few bits;

I arm my DS boys with Choppas over shootas, but that is ultimately personally preference.

I think that a kommando squad with a nob is 50 something points rather than 45, as it must take the Klaw if I remember rightly.

It looks like you've taken two smasha guns, but paid for four (it says Heavy Support 160, but only lists two smasha guns at 80 points). How many guns are you actually running?


Other than that, I like it. I personally wouldn't take a big mek for a KFF as it will only apply to one trukk, but you might get some use out of the jet that has a KFF if you're going all in and trying to get in the opponent's grill turn one.

Good catch! I must have forgotten to change some of the final points costs for each section since I was playing around with the points first before I posted, my bad! I've fixed it up and I completely forgot that Nobz in Kommandos basically have a 10 point tax with them since they do have to come with the Power Klaw (assuming no Legends). I've opted to go only for one with it in that case.

Any particular reason why you like choppa boyz over shootas? I like keeping my shootas in the trukks as long as possible to make the most of being able to shoot, I feel like they're too much of a liability in CC and since they can't take advantage of GT, there's no real point in getting the extra attack in CC. I was considering the Wazbom Blastajet, but I feel like I need to have more flyers to make it worth taking and I can't fit in the points.

I prefer choppas because I feel like I get extra mileage out of the extra attack compared to the extra shots from shootas. They tend to end up in melee after being dumped into an objective, so every turn in melee is wasted shots on shootas, whereas I get an extra attack in melee and can still shoot if I'm using sluggas.

I don't know why I specified that my boys were DS, I'd probably arm then with choppas regardless of clan outside of BM.

It depends on when you plan on getting your boys into combat as to what you arm them with. I play super aggressive and am looking to charge on turn two at the latest, so I'm getting more opportunities to get mileage out of the choppas compared to shootas.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I prefer choppas because I feel like I get extra mileage out of the extra attack compared to the extra shots from shootas. They tend to end up in melee after being dumped into an objective, so every turn in melee is wasted shots on shootas, whereas I get an extra attack in melee and can still shoot if I'm using sluggas.

I don't know why I specified that my boys were DS, I'd probably arm then with choppas regardless of clan outside of BM.

It depends on when you plan on getting your boys into combat as to what you arm them with. I play super aggressive and am looking to charge on turn two at the latest, so I'm getting more opportunities to get mileage out of the choppas compared to shootas.

That's fair, and with the multitide of negatives to hit it might be better to use them with choppas. I might do a compromise and do a unit of 2 with choppas and one with shootas and see the difference. I think I have a bias from 8th ed where shootas in general had more use just because when they were Da Jumped, they could at least help clear screens or do something in the off chance you couldn't make the charge, which in this edition is moot when its mainly min squads.

I kinda wish boomboys and tineads were better but maybe our next codex fixed orks internal balance issues.
It can’t be to far off considering we are one of 4 army models leaked in the community video and ours appears to be some new boy unit type.

gungo wrote:
I kinda wish boomboys and tineads were better but maybe our next codex fixed orks internal balance issues.
It can’t be to far off considering we are one of 4 army models leaked in the community video and ours appears to be some new boy unit type.

Considering that they mentioned that they would incorporate different parts of psychic awakening into our codex, I would assume most of the stuff regarding kustom jobs stays. With the changes to the detachment system, it would be ideal that they either make the subkulturs not cost CP if they're in a patrol detachment (to show the specialism and lack of units tied to them) or some kind of strat that allows them to exist within one main klan kultur.

It does seem that they are limiting rerolls as a rule based on the leaked chapter tactics and dynasties for the new 9th ed codices, so I could see Bad Moonz being buffed to a flat +1 to hit with shooting, while giving Freebootas +1 to wound instead for their current rule.

So, I've played a few games utilising da boomer on a gunwagon and against a variety of targets it's whiffed pretty hard. At 175 points I feel it's basically a crap Leman Russ and there are plenty of things I'd rather spend the points on.
Similarly, the Morakanaut, with sparkly bits is, I feel, a bit over rated. It can be useful, but more times than not its been taken out in the first turn, or very shortly after. I'd rather spend the points elsewhere.

On the plus side, kommandos, koptas, truckboyz and killsaw MANZ have been very useful. The flexibility and firepower of buggies, backing a mix of these units seems to be the way to score.

My next game, I'm going to experiment with triple klaw/saw, single KMB Deff Dreads with orkymatic pistons. From what I've experienced I think they could a very useful unit to push stubborn units from objectives.