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My big wishlist for the next ork codex is subkultures become a "once per army, this unit counts as X instead of Y without breaking kulture rules" so we can use all those subkultures on the unit theyre intended for, but cant spam them.
Too many of them simply do absolutely nothing for such a large bulk of the army.

 r_squared wrote:
So, I've played a few games utilising da boomer on a gunwagon and against a variety of targets it's whiffed pretty hard. At 175 points I feel it's basically a crap Leman Russ and there are plenty of things I'd rather spend the points on.
Similarly, the Morakanaut, with sparkly bits is, I feel, a bit over rated. It can be useful, but more times than not its been taken out in the first turn, or very shortly after. I'd rather spend the points elsewhere.

On the plus side, kommandos, koptas, truckboyz and killsaw MANZ have been very useful. The flexibility and firepower of buggies, backing a mix of these units seems to be the way to score.

My next game, I'm going to experiment with triple klaw/saw, single KMB Deff Dreads with orkymatic pistons. From what I've experienced I think they could a very useful unit to push stubborn units from objectives.

Rocket koptas or shoota koptas?

r_squared wrote:So, I've played a few games utilising da boomer on a gunwagon and against a variety of targets it's whiffed pretty hard. At 175 points I feel it's basically a crap Leman Russ and there are plenty of things I'd rather spend the points on.
Similarly, the Morakanaut, with sparkly bits is, I feel, a bit over rated. It can be useful, but more times than not its been taken out in the first turn, or very shortly after. I'd rather spend the points elsewhere.

On the plus side, kommandos, koptas, truckboyz and killsaw MANZ have been very useful. The flexibility and firepower of buggies, backing a mix of these units seems to be the way to score.

My next game, I'm going to experiment with triple klaw/saw, single KMB Deff Dreads with orkymatic pistons. From what I've experienced I think they could a very useful unit to push stubborn units from objectives.

Out of curiosity, what sort of targets are you using it against and how are you using it with the rest of the army?

Vineheart01 wrote:My big wishlist for the next ork codex is subkultures become a "once per army, this unit counts as X instead of Y without breaking kulture rules" so we can use all those subkultures on the unit theyre intended for, but cant spam them.
Too many of them simply do absolutely nothing for such a large bulk of the army.

That would be really nice, or the patrol thing that Grimskul mentioned.

I'm having great success with Ghaz in a Goff patrol. Ghaz + 30 skarboys with pk + KFF + obligatory painboy to heal Ghaz comes to only 690ish points.

Gotta say Ghaz is a beast. I've played 9+ games of 9th now and he only once (when I teleported him) didn't destroy at least his points cost (and absorb a load of damage).

He's gun hits on 5s when in engagement range as its an assault.

Move him up the centre of the board as a threat. If he's near the goff boyz then all the better for +1 attack and reroll 1s. Fence off points for the painboy strat on him and ideally keep 2cp for fight on death.

I have to say he's awesome in any detachment. Goff patrol and Deathskulls vanguad ftw

 Tomsug wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
So, I've played a few games utilising da boomer on a gunwagon and against a variety of targets it's whiffed pretty hard. At 175 points I feel it's basically a crap Leman Russ and there are plenty of things I'd rather spend the points on.
Similarly, the Morakanaut, with sparkly bits is, I feel, a bit over rated. It can be useful, but more times than not its been taken out in the first turn, or very shortly after. I'd rather spend the points elsewhere.

On the plus side, kommandos, koptas, truckboyz and killsaw MANZ have been very useful. The flexibility and firepower of buggies, backing a mix of these units seems to be the way to score.

My next game, I'm going to experiment with triple klaw/saw, single KMB Deff Dreads with orkymatic pistons. From what I've experienced I think they could a very useful unit to push stubborn units from objectives.

Rocket koptas or shoota koptas?

Shoota koptas for max cheapness most of the time, but I do like the rokkit koptas in a DS list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Afrodactyl wrote:

r_squared wrote:So, I've played a few games utilising da boomer on a gunwagon and against a variety of targets it's whiffed pretty hard. At 175 points I feel it's basically a crap Leman Russ and there are plenty of things I'd rather spend the points on.
Similarly, the Morakanaut, with sparkly bits is, I feel, a bit over rated. It can be useful, but more times than not its been taken out in the first turn, or very shortly after. I'd rather spend the points elsewhere.

On the plus side, kommandos, koptas, truckboyz and killsaw MANZ have been very useful. The flexibility and firepower of buggies, backing a mix of these units seems to be the way to score.

My next game, I'm going to experiment with triple klaw/saw, single KMB Deff Dreads with orkymatic pistons. From what I've experienced I think they could a very useful unit to push stubborn units from objectives.

Out of curiosity, what sort of targets are you using it against and how are you using it with the rest of the army? ...

A variety, primaris in and out of cover, dreadnoughts, light vehicles, some heavier tanks. Using more dakka every now and then as the situation demands, dense cover really hurts.
Unfortunately it has been mostly underwhelming, my last opponent literally ignored it all game as he didn't even consider it a threat. In no game have I got close to getting back it's points costs, plus it's cost me a CP. It looks good on paper, but in the real world it just doesn't pull it's weight.

 r_squared wrote:


Shoota koptas for max cheapness most of the time, but I do like the rokkit koptas in a DS list.

I think I'm with you 100%.

Deff Koptas might be one our best units for achieving objectives. I think their current rating on this thread massively undervalues them

They are in my mind:
1) A 35 point throw away DS screen in the midboard, or other spot on the board.
2) Useful for getting engage on all fronts
3) Can eat an overwatch
4) Can contest midboard objectives that have a single model (like a Wave serpent) on it, denying primary points.

Their only drawback is bring it down... which is easily mitigated simply by having a mechanized buggy spam where you already give up 15 VPs to bring it down.

I think I'm gonna be trying out 3 in my outrider list, alongside my 8 or so buggies and 2 wagons.

Edit: Tabletop Titans had a bat rep of White Scars vs Orks ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H7wwn-GN4E ), entertaining enough if you like that sort of thing.

Honestly, what secondaries do you take against an army like the White Scars player has, though? Engage on all fronts seems fine, but WOOF. Maybe attrition, maybe assassinate? 40 assault intercessors, 10 intercessors, Khan on Bike, 3 squads of Outriders, 2 Invictors, librarian, and a judiciar.. That army doesn't give up any kill secondaries.
It would be a strong use case just to take a couple infantry squads just so you can raise banners, even in a buggy spam, cause I don't really see a good set of 3 against that kind of list.

Would Ghaz be useful at all, in a 1000 point army? Or would he need to be in at least 1500-2000 to be useful? I mean he is 300 points and he needs a Pain boy and then the rest of the chaff afterwards..

Not a lot of points left for chaff and what not after you've invested in Ghazzy in a 1000 point army.

Beardedragon wrote:
Would Ghaz be useful at all, in a 1000 point army? Or would he need to be in at least 1500-2000 to be useful? I mean he is 300 points and he needs a Pain boy and then the rest of the chaff afterwards..

Not a lot of points left for chaff and what not after you've invested in Ghazzy in a 1000 point army.

I'd say no, he's probably too much of an investment in a 1000 point game. It's unlikely that your opponent is able to kill him until T3-4 at the earliest, but at the same time like you said, you'll pretty much just have boyz for the rest of the list which means there's not much else to your army besides trying to hold the center with him and 2 blobs of guys. Not terrible but also limited as far as tactics go.

 Grimskul wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Would Ghaz be useful at all, in a 1000 point army? Or would he need to be in at least 1500-2000 to be useful? I mean he is 300 points and he needs a Pain boy and then the rest of the chaff afterwards..

Not a lot of points left for chaff and what not after you've invested in Ghazzy in a 1000 point army.

I'd say no, he's probably too much of an investment in a 1000 point game. It's unlikely that your opponent is able to kill him until T3-4 at the earliest, but at the same time like you said, you'll pretty much just have boyz for the rest of the list which means there's not much else to your army besides trying to hold the center with him and 2 blobs of guys. Not terrible but also limited as far as tactics go.

yea.. thats what i thought. Thanks. Ive almost finished painting him so i just wanted to know. guess hes on hold untill i can field a larger army.

tulun wrote:
Deff Koptas might be one our best units for achieving objectives. I think their current rating on this thread massively undervalues them

They are in my mind:
1) A 35 point throw away DS screen in the midboard, or other spot on the board.
2) Useful for getting engage on all fronts
3) Can eat an overwatch
4) Can contest midboard objectives that have a single model (like a Wave serpent) on it, denying primary points.

Their only drawback is bring it down... which is easily mitigated simply by having a mechanized buggy spam where you already give up 15 VPs to bring it down.

I think I'm gonna be trying out 3 in my outrider list, alongside my 8 or so buggies and 2 wagons.

Thats how i use them. I tried Koptas with rokkits as well and they are fantastic as DS, but since i mainly need them for Engage on all fronts - especially turn one - and other secondaries, i prefer them with BS. 35 points is a steal - i would rate them better as well.
Only little problem is they take up FA slots, so if you just have 1 detachment you`ll need an outrider or go for 2 detachments to get multiple single Koptas and still take 1-3 Scrapjets + 1-3 Dragstas.
Personally i play outrider a lot with just 2 HQ`s and max out 2 heavy support slots + 2 flyers for max CP. Thats still 3 x trukkboys + shooty vehicle stuff.
Sounds like you go for something similar?

tulun wrote:
Edit: Tabletop Titans had a bat rep of White Scars vs Orks ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H7wwn-GN4E ), entertaining enough if you like that sort of thing.

Honestly, what secondaries do you take against an army like the White Scars player has, though? Engage on all fronts seems fine, but WOOF. Maybe attrition, maybe assassinate? 40 assault intercessors, 10 intercessors, Khan on Bike, 3 squads of Outriders, 2 Invictors, librarian, and a judiciar.. That army doesn't give up any kill secondaries.
It would be a strong use case just to take a couple infantry squads just so you can raise banners, even in a buggy spam, cause I don't really see a good set of 3 against that kind of list.

Personally i would go for engage on all fronts for sure. The next ones depends:
Raise the banners if you have grot / trukkboys / kommandos.
Psychic ritual if you have 1 or 2 wyrdboys and do not really need them, but that is quite a gamble but can you get 15 points straight. Take this only when you think you can dominate the middle and protect that dude 3 turns. Mental interrogation might be the safe play for some points here. This one is somewhat a last resort for me if i know i can`t score otherwise.
While we stand we fight if your think you can manage to hold those 3 units in reserves and / or protect them. In my case that would be a Naut, a waggon and the Wazbom most of the time. Thats quite some firepower to miss on, but i think you can keep them safe from the WS after turn 3. With the right characters / vehicles this one might be quite doable against such lists without loosing to much. Against the right opponent i actually did take that one from time to time.
Otherwise assassinate to play some safe points, or cut of the head if you feel lucky. Might work with the bommer and the right offensive tools, but if you don`t get it done turn 1-2 assassinate will be your better bet. (If you play the GT secondaries)

 Grotrebel wrote:

tulun wrote:
Deff Koptas might be one our best units for achieving objectives. I think their current rating on this thread massively undervalues them

They are in my mind:
1) A 35 point throw away DS screen in the midboard, or other spot on the board.
2) Useful for getting engage on all fronts
3) Can eat an overwatch
4) Can contest midboard objectives that have a single model (like a Wave serpent) on it, denying primary points.

Their only drawback is bring it down... which is easily mitigated simply by having a mechanized buggy spam where you already give up 15 VPs to bring it down.

I think I'm gonna be trying out 3 in my outrider list, alongside my 8 or so buggies and 2 wagons.

Thats how i use them. I tried Koptas with rokkits as well and they are fantastic as DS, but since i mainly need them for Engage on all fronts - especially turn one - and other secondaries, i prefer them with BS. 35 points is a steal - i would rate them better as well.
Only little problem is they take up FA slots, so if you just have 1 detachment you`ll need an outrider or go for 2 detachments to get multiple single Koptas and still take 1-3 Scrapjets + 1-3 Dragstas.
Personally i play outrider a lot with just 2 HQ`s and max out 2 heavy support slots + 2 flyers for max CP. Thats still 3 x trukkboys + shooty vehicle stuff.
Sounds like you go for something similar?

The two lists I'm probably most interested in are either a batallion with Trukks / Wagons for Da Boys, or a pure Outrider which is boyless.

I haven't gotten to play this yet, as I actually don't own two Wartrikes, but it's roughly:

2 Wartrikes (1 as Warlord with Brutal, other with Da Fixer Uppers)
2 KBB
3 Mega Trakk
3 Dragsters
3 Big Shoota Deff Koptas
7 Nob Bikers
2 Bonebreakers
1 Burna Bomber

I think the Deff Koptas do work but slots are the biggest issue, I agree. Even taking 1 Dragster with their fire and fade ability is almost always gonna be money. I think the Fast Attack slot might be Orks most competitive slot right now.

I would suggest people experiment with them keeping in mind that their goal is screening out deep strikers and going after objectives -- they are throw away units.

The Trukk boy style list that I also like could probably still take them, but honestly, even that list will wanna take a look at Dragsters, KBBs, or Mega Trakks.

If you are to believe this list, that started the entire long ork tactics thread, then Nob bikers shouldnt be used

Sounds good!

I played some games completely without infantry, which went great if i got to blast up a lot of stuff with getting the first turn.
But i had games where i went second, couldn`t archieve good midboard control anymore and really missed something like boys to help with that.
Mixing Boys, transports and buggies gets really expensive and does not leave much room tough.
I love my sparkly bitz Morkanaut / slug gubbin Gorkanaut and Wazbom Blastajet, since they get me good firepower and some KFF protection without the need for an KFF Mek, but they are expensive as heck.

With 1 HQ of your flavour, 3 Dragstas, 3 Scrapjets, 1 Bommer and 2 x Trukkboys you`re looking at 1250 points, which will be about the core of a lot ork lists for now and gets you a solid base. I love playing vehicle only but i guess we will see more lists performing better that also bring truck / waggon boys, MANz, kommandos or maybe even some grot.
Helps with board control and the actions that can just be performed by infantry.

But it feels kinda nice to still have different options how to fill the remaining 750 points.
KBB, Waggons, Mek Gunz, Kommandos, MANz, Wazbom, Nauts, Koptas and a handfull of HQ`s are all viable and leave enough room to bring some variety in our lists.
I can also see Bikes working with that kind of army.




I`m gonna go up against Tau tomorrow, and since he blasted my buggies away last time with 2 turns of brutal shooting, i will go for horde this time.
The plan was to take 150 grot (Sadly thats all i have painted.) and 90 boys, together with a few kommandos, 2 koptas, wyrdboy, warboss, dok and a SSAG. (Playing matched play without tournament restrictions.)

My opponent will most likely go for a Triptide with lots of shield drones, 2 commanders, 1 ethereal, 3 crisis and some other stuff.

Should i go for a Cheeky Zoggerz detachment to annoy him with 6++ 6+++ grot? This will be an dice orgy but should tank quite some shooting.
Also not sure how to play the grot - a few mobs of 30 supported by breaking heads plus some mobs of 10 for actions or just as many squads of 10 as possible?
Morale should not be that much of a problem, especially with the jumping / tellyporting boys distracting him.

Thought about Evil Sunz boys of course, to take out his troops, clear objectives and overrun his drones and Riptides in the end.

Beardedragon wrote:
If you are to believe this list, that started the entire long ork tactics thread, then Nob bikers shouldnt be used

Nob Bikers seem fine to me. 8 points more than a normal biker provides +1S +1A +1W, and the option for klaws and big choppas. The -1 to hit strat and T5 makes them about as resistant to shooting as MANz. They're expensive, but don't need to pay for a transport or need to teleport, and unlike CC infantry in a transport they keep their speed all game. Inability to fight twice is a downside.

Beardedragon wrote:
If you are to believe this list, that started the entire long ork tactics thread, then Nob bikers shouldnt be used

Nob bikers did very well out of the points changes, and while T5 W3 4+ isn't the toughest frame it's certainly tanky compared to some of the other stuff in the codex. They're also very fast, and for 105 points you get 18 S5 shots at range and 15 S5 melee attacks assuming double choppas.

For 150 points you change the melee attacks to 12 S10 AP-4 D2.

If you take four with dual saws, they're the same cost as 5 dual saw meganobs. So you lose out on four melee attacks and a 2+ armour save in exchange for some respectable firepower and a huge threat range.

Biker nobs certainly have a place in a speedy list, as they are more mid-toughness target saturation that keeps pace and deliver very respectable melee punch that doesn't compete for our highly sought after FA slots.

Beardedragon wrote:
If you are to believe this list, that started the entire long ork tactics thread, then Nob bikers shouldnt be used

Well they are expensive, which is basicly why they are that "bad" rated, but in that kind of list they are better and the unit itself is actually quite good.
Fast, good dakka, quite killy in close combat and somewhat tanky with a few good strategems and synergies to work with.
They help with the need for chaff killing fire power and can reliable pull of first turn charges together with the Wartrikes ability to let them charge after advancing for easy 24"+ charges. With Evil Sunz you could push that even to an 50" charge (40" average) if you play with Vigilus rules.
Also they fit in this list because they need anti tank weapons to be taken down reliable just like the rest which makes anti infantry firepower more or less useless.
Nobbikers might not be the best unit but this is about the best way to include them.
That mob of 7 can still take out 10 Primaris or a Leman Russ on it`s own.
They loose the 2+ AS of the competing meganobs and their advantages of being infantry with an additional increase of 10 points, but for that you get speed and Dakka.

Nob Bikers are probably a mid tier unit at best.

But in the right list, they can fill a niche not achievable by Mega Nobs or normal Nobs.

It's very incorrect to blanket say most units are totally unusable, albeit with a few notable exceptions. Looking at you, Mekboy Workshop....

Nobz on bikes can have a Squig hive tyres Kustom job! Cool.

tulun wrote:
Nob Bikers are probably a mid tier unit at best.

But in the right list, they can fill a niche not achievable by Mega Nobs or normal Nobs.

It's very incorrect to blanket say most units are totally unusable, albeit with a few notable exceptions. Looking at you, Mekboy Workshop....

Couldn´t agree more on the last. The herd mentality in the gaming world is powerful, so it´s important to take "wisdoms" with a grain of salt.

On the topic of mech lists I think loading some boyz onboard can be a thing. One reason is that Area Terrain is quite beneficial to infantry. +1 Cover and -1 to hit for just standing around is enough to throw some math. Especially when people keeps using elite lists that supposes equally points invested targets. Unloading a mob of boyz and taking hold of the local ruin or wood beside the objective demands some attention. They´re Obsec, they have a large footprint, they may not be much of an offensive threat, but enough Dakka and the random Tanbusta is an annoyance for the points.

I think of them as more durable Deffkoptas. They aren´t there to necessary kill stuff, but threaten their objectives.

The first post is meant as a starting point for new players, and it does a well enough job at that. It's not meant to be the end-all for cutting edge ork strategy - this is why we have a thread, not a blog entry.

Also keep in mind that the list in the first post is a snapshot of the ork situation and was written before the bikerboss was axed, who did their job much better.

Last, but not least, I personally don't like these kind of lists, but there was a high demand by the community to have one.
It's also a lot of work to maintain, so it only gets updated when there really is need to do so.

Yeah i can imagine that this was quite some work and overall it gives a great overview.
The most important stuff is there with the details being right on spot and not to much stuff that makes it unreadable.

But it makes sense that the list or single units will shift from time to time with new FAQ`s, point changes or stuff going to legends etc.
Just look at Flash Gits, they were mostly laughed at in 8th, became quite decent with their price drop and just got worse again with their 9th edition price tag.

Also the 9th edition Codex wave will change a lot as well when new threads emerge or the meta shifts.

As far as i see it we can be lucky with this thread, there are not many faction threads with that amount of good information in the starting post on Dakka and we have quite a few ork players that give good input here and there is always some discussion about many topics.

 Jidmah wrote:
The first post is meant as a starting point for new players, and it does a well enough job at that. It's not meant to be the end-all for cutting edge ork strategy - this is why we have a thread, not a blog entry.

Also keep in mind that the list in the first post is a snapshot of the ork situation and was written before the bikerboss was axed, who did their job much better.

Last, but not least, I personally don't like these kind of lists, but there was a high demand by the community to have one.
It's also a lot of work to maintain, so it only gets updated when there really is need to do so.

well. I like the list as it provides a good start point of view for newer players. I too have used the list a lot as it gives me a decent overview.

Like with the Nob bikers. People say they can work but you would need a special sort of loadout for them to be decent. Fair enough. Thats probably not the first thing i want to attempt when im new.

Over all, such a list does help us new ones.

Honestly, I'd probably not put then in red anymore, but closer to warbikers. But I'm also not going to change the list just for that. The next big update will either be the next CA or the codex plus some time for the game to settle afterwards.

 Jidmah wrote:
Honestly, I'd probably not put then in red anymore, but closer to warbikers. But I'm also not going to change the list just for that. The next big update will either be the next CA or the codex plus some time for the game to settle afterwards.

Yeah this is fair. The list is a snapshot at a certain point in time with some group input. Expecting it to be updated constantly isn't fair -- it actually does help, so appreciated.

Everyone should just take it with a grain of salt. Like, taking nothing but "green" units could lead to a very, very bad army. Army composition is more than just taking the most OP stuff in your codex, at least for Orks.

Hence why a unit of Warbikers, which are probably objectively pretty trash overall, might fit really well in a GT winning list. They fulfill a niche very well when you are expecting at least some horde clearing which you might lack overall, or a fast counter charge unit that can be deployed in a pinch.

Nob Bikers should probably be bumped, as well as Deff Koptas. I think as 9th evolves, we will realize some of these meh units might have a place. I could see people taking 45 point kommandos squads as backfield objective holders, as they are 5 points cheaper than grots; I could see people taking 30 point Meks solely to raise banners in certain armies for similar reasons.

9th is a weird edition where a throw away unit that does 0 damage and is pretty crap on paper might net you 5-10 VPs because of how secondaries work.

In my mind the list reads in a way that higher categories are less likely to be bad purchases for someone who has no clue what to buy.

I'm somewhat of a burned child in that regard - as a little ork noob I was asking advice on the-waaagh.com for what to get next and to put it nicely, the guys there weren't playing the same game I was, so I ended up with quite a bit of money sunk into models that weren't doing too hot on the tabletop. I left their community for dakka, because people here were actually helping me by giving great advice.

For that reason, I prefer to err on the side of caution when giving units a good rating.

Are there comming any tournaments in your countries? Long time no see any tournament lists. I ´ very interested in top tier proofs of all these theories.

Germany has clamped down on forbidding all events (including private ones) with more than 25 participants, no a clear no from here.

In my experience with 9th so far here is what I have to say:

Trukk Boyz have been excellent.
KBB's have been excellent.
Ghazz was great. (He was also rolling super hot)
SJD's have been meh. (Question: with the 9th ed. null on double buff's do the SJD's get +2 to hit with their squig and grot gunner ability or is it capped at +1?)
Dakkajet's have been meh.
Grots are also actually pretty good, they are great at scoring points (but kommando's might be a better choice?)

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
In my experience with 9th so far here is what I have to say:

Trukk Boyz have been excellent.
KBB's have been excellent.
Ghazz was great. (He was also rolling super hot)
SJD's have been meh. (Question: with the 9th ed. null on double buff's do the SJD's get +2 to hit with their squig and grot gunner ability or is it capped at +1?)
Dakkajet's have been meh.
Grots are also actually pretty good, they are great at scoring points (but kommando's might be a better choice?)

SJD's were explicitly errated to count as having BS3+ when shooting their kustom shokk rifle, so they can benefit from freebootas and not be capped at 4+ BS.

I'm kinda surprised that you mentioned grots being good given that almost every Ork player I know basically shelving them until our next codex hits. As far as units go, I feel like they're way too expensive and weak even for objective holding, and their previous use as Grot Shields is far less useful with lootas/flash gitz price hikes making them both less cost efficient and worthy of wasting the CP on.

ive been having less luck with the SJD because its ultimate task is to snipe 8-10W vehicles and/or characters that are exposed on an angle.
With the mentality of the game right now ive had an unusually difficult time spotting characters exposed on an angle i can shokktunnel to and for some reason people stopped using dreadnoughts around me lol.