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A great many of the active youtubers that have orks are old gamers and play multiple armies as well.
Only people who keep playing orks and play them constantly actually seem to notice that boyz suck right now. Pretty much every single one of my opponents (except my roommates) thinks boyz are ridiculous when massed and keep expecting me to eventually "come to my senses and bring back green tide"
For probably the entirety of the ork existence they have been about da boyz. Hence the term "boyz before toyz" being a thing. Its alien mentality to flip that around and a ton of people simply fail to grasp that its no longer a true statement.

If you just want amusing battlereports, youtubers are great. If you want lore stuff, youtubers are great. Narrative battles? Youtubers again are great. Competitive advice? Stay the hell away from youtubers lol.
I dont think ive seen a single youtube battlereport not royally fudge up a big rule.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
A great many of the active youtubers that have orks are old gamers and play multiple armies as well.
Only people who keep playing orks and play them constantly actually seem to notice that boyz suck right now. Pretty much every single one of my opponents (except my roommates) thinks boyz are ridiculous when massed and keep expecting me to eventually "come to my senses and bring back green tide"
For probably the entirety of the ork existence they have been about da boyz. Hence the term "boyz before toyz" being a thing. Its alien mentality to flip that around and a ton of people simply fail to grasp that its no longer a true statement.

If you just want amusing battlereports, youtubers are great. If you want lore stuff, youtubers are great. Narrative battles? Youtubers again are great. Competitive advice? Stay the hell away from youtubers lol.
I dont think ive seen a single youtube battlereport not royally fudge up a big rule.

This has never been so truer before than recently. My experience when I first started in 8th taught me Orks are better as cannon fodder to be jumped to the front lines to keep gunlines off my batteries as Badmoons. I am a proud user of Badmoons Orks and I still intend to make good use of them. =3

The news about the morkanaut is fantastic as I have a kitbashed one I had to put on the sidelines for some time. Now I feel like I could rework my list to reintroduce him into a proper Dread WAAAAAAAGH!.

Ork Burnas are presumably going to have 12" range like every other flamer type, same goes for Skorchas. Still suck too much with only D3 shots each, or do they seem worthy in a tellyporta now?

actually i am fully expecting them to "forget" burnas and skorchas because they lack the "flamer" word.
Similarly the melta shot on the wartrike is not a "melta" persay. Its a "killa jet cutter profile"

GW is pretty bad about things like that, matching a universal change across "functionally identical" targets.
The absolute only buff weve seen that excites me is the powersword change for my admech. Not expecting any of it to apply to orks because its "not the same gun"

Call me a pessimist but they've shafted orks plenty of times in things like this.

At the very least, it creates a niche for them. Whether they are worth taking heavily depends on their points per model.

Yea power swords and Orks are a tricky thing, we have them in a couple forms (power stabbas and burns cutting torch) but I can easily see them not getting the +1S.

If that +1str powersword somehow applies to powerstabbas i wonder if that means powerstabbas are better.
Footnobz anyway

S6 wounds any marine equal to the bigchoppa, even gravis armor
AP3 means the damage goes through easier
But 1 damage vs 2 means you need more successes anyway.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
A great many of the active youtubers that have orks are old gamers and play multiple armies as well.
Only people who keep playing orks and play them constantly actually seem to notice that boyz suck right now. Pretty much every single one of my opponents (except my roommates) thinks boyz are ridiculous when massed and keep expecting me to eventually "come to my senses and bring back green tide"
For probably the entirety of the ork existence they have been about da boyz. Hence the term "boyz before toyz" being a thing. Its alien mentality to flip that around and a ton of people simply fail to grasp that its no longer a true statement.

If you just want amusing battlereports, youtubers are great. If you want lore stuff, youtubers are great. Narrative battles? Youtubers again are great. Competitive advice? Stay the hell away from youtubers lol.
I dont think ive seen a single youtube battlereport not royally fudge up a big rule.

Who thinks boyz are good? At least here finding sun rising from west is easier than finding somebody who thinks boyz are good.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
A great many of the active youtubers that have orks are old gamers and play multiple armies as well.
Only people who keep playing orks and play them constantly actually seem to notice that boyz suck right now. Pretty much every single one of my opponents (except my roommates) thinks boyz are ridiculous when massed and keep expecting me to eventually "come to my senses and bring back green tide"
For probably the entirety of the ork existence they have been about da boyz. Hence the term "boyz before toyz" being a thing. Its alien mentality to flip that around and a ton of people simply fail to grasp that its no longer a true statement.

I also think that boyz are okeyish at most, definitely not particulary good. However the goff's greentide is actually a competitive build and it's the main reason why many players have such a high regard of boyz. Of course with exploding 6s, +1A, S5, re-rolling 1s, other characters' auras and psychic powers, combined to the havoc that the legendary boss can cause and the fact that all the enemy anti tank is kinda wasted (never forget time limitations either, which always help this kind of armies) they contribute to make a very solid list. But outside that skew list fielding 3x30 boyz plus supporting characters in a mixed up list with half budget invested in toys (vehicles, walkers, bikes, specialists...) simply isn't a competitive choice. Not tournament level at least. One single mob of 30 is pure garbage, unless playing at 500 points.

I'm happy with 2 or sometimes 3x10 trukk boyz and 17-19 in a BW.

Most of those youtubers actually know things, more than the majority of players at least, but they have to make reviews shortly after rules are released so their opinions are based on reading entire books just once without even trying anything on the battlefield. On paper many things look actually very different to how they are in real life.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:


Who thinks boyz are good? At least here finding sun rising from west is easier than finding somebody who thinks boyz are good.

The majority of non ork players probably.

tneva82 wrote:


Who thinks boyz are good? At least here finding sun rising from west is easier than finding somebody who thinks boyz are good.

People are winning events with Boy tides.

I think it's clear boys *can* be good if you literally go all in. 120 boys, KFF Mek, Painboy, Ghaz, Waaagh banner, Skarboyz...

But that's not the same thing as a boy unit being good. 10 Intercessors are just straight up solid without needing to spam them.

I think it's fair to say they are fine, but they are still just a straight up just a tax. I'd rather take 5 kommandos in a trukk than 10 boys, which can save up 35 points... or 5 tankbustas. Cost about the same, too. And if you are deathskulls, they also have Obsec, so you aren't even losing that tech.

I'll probably play a game this Saturday where I try my mad lad Stormboyz in Trukks, just to see how they do.

Yeah, boyz are only "good" in the sense that they're largely anti-meta in many competitive circles at the moment, and that the game is geared towards early scoring through mid-board dominance, which a tide of boyz can do. Like tulun said, unless you go all in with them, they're a liability at worst and a tax at best for all other lists. Ideally we actually don't do too well with the Green Tide lists because I feel like GW will then feel obligated to give them the smack-down even more than they already have.

 Grimskul wrote:
Yeah, boyz are only "good" in the sense that they're largely anti-meta in many competitive circles at the moment, and that the game is geared towards early scoring through mid-board dominance, which a tide of boyz can do. Like tulun said, unless you go all in with them, they're a liability at worst and a tax at best for all other lists. Ideally we actually don't do too well with the Green Tide lists because I feel like GW will then feel obligated to give them the smack-down even more than they already have.

I doubt there will be much changes to green tide. It's not an oppressive list. hell it's probably not even a gatekeeper list.

Pet theory: I think non-tide lists are gonna go in a direction like patrol / X, where X is Vanguard, Spearhead, or Outrider. I think the buggy list is strong but I think we'll start to see that it's really hard to not have *any* infantry in armies due to secondaries, and if terrain actually gets more dense, you'll really struggle to move a large # of non-flying vehicles.

But Patrol / X lets you design your army however you want for the cost of 3 CP. 2-4 HQs, 1-6 troops, at least four of any other slot with one of them being 8 slots, and it minimizes the boy tax. You want boys in trukks? take Kommandos in a vanguard, 5 boys w/ a nob + Mek gun is probably better than 10 boys + nob.

As long as deathskulls retains Obsec on infantry, I think the incentive to take boys in non-tide lists is really low beyond required slots.

The changes to imperium weapons might be the breaking point for buggy spam lists. While making boyz look better in comparison.
Though green tide is definitely not the easiest and funniest thing to bring to the table. And to paint.

 koooaei wrote:
The changes to imperium weapons might be the breaking point for buggy spam lists. While making boyz look better in comparison.
Though green tide is definitely not the easiest and funniest thing to bring to the table. And to paint.

You think 12" flamers are going to make boys better?

Oh, it's going to get much, much worse for green tide.

The weapon update is going to be brutal, though, as heavy bolters are going to absolutely wreck buggies with 2 or 3 damage (hello Imperial fists...). I think we'll just have to suck it up until we get ours, sadly.

Edit: Although 8 damage melta is scary, the 2-3 shots already just ruins our vehicles without any damage buff. I do think Forktresses and Morks are probably screwed even harder, though, while regular buggies are probably in about the same boat. Eradicators already melted us.

Funny part is that both Imperial changes make both boyz and buggies hurt, since the flamer range extension makes them more effective against boyz (though this will partially depend on how they price them with the buffs), while the minimum flat 3 damage at half-range and extra shots from MM buffs definitely curbs the ability for buggies to survive.

Definitely not looking forward to another 3-5 months of marine dominance.

More than flamers I fear the buffs on chainswords, power swords and thunder hammers. Plus -1AP thanks to nasty doctrines, unless GW removes or rewrites that nonsense. Now SM can be quite superior to orks even in combat.

The change of heavy bolters is a buff for us though, 2D but only one shot is actually a nerf unless the weapon becomes cheaper, which I don't think it will be.

Storm shields models with 2+ (on top of +1W) will also tank a lot of sluggas, shootas, choppas, big shootas, dakkaguns.

 Blackie wrote:
More than flamers I fear the buffs on chainswords, power swords and thunder hammers. Plus -1AP thanks to nasty doctrines, unless GW removes or rewrites that nonsense. Now SM can be quite superior to orks even in combat.

The change of heavy bolters is a buff for us though, 2D but only one shot is actually a nerf unless the weapon becomes cheaper, which I don't think it will be.

Storm shields models with 2+ (on top of +1W) will also tank a lot of sluggas, shootas, choppas, big shootas, dakkaguns.

Heavy Bolters are still 3 shots.

At least storm shields will be throwing a 4++ against KMB / Klaws and Saws now. That's a *huge* improvement.

Unless it's low AP weapons hitting the shields. In which case it won't be fun.

Still waiting for GW to reveal some non necron Xenos stats. Even just a handful would give us something to get excited about. Like if Klaws,killsaws and bigchoppas will get changes to match the imperial versions.

cody.d. wrote:
Unless it's low AP weapons hitting the shields. In which case it won't be fun.

Still waiting for GW to reveal some non necron Xenos stats. Even just a handful would give us something to get excited about. Like if Klaws,killsaws and bigchoppas will get changes to match the imperial versions.

Yeah, hard to see what our weapons would get to make them be on par with Imperials. Our main problem is that we don't really have the variety Imperials do when it comes to weapons options, especially CC. We're relegated to just killsaws, power klaws and Big Choppas (stabbas I guess count too at some level, but I almost never see them taken). I wonder if having an armywide "choppas" rule similar to 8th ed Fantasy Orcs and Goblins had would make it a good way of compensating? In Fantasy it gave +1S on the first round of combat for units with all Orc units. The equivalent for 40k seems to be less about strength and more about AP, so what if we got an additional AP (making regular choppas AP-1) for all non-vehicle and non-grot (besides walkers) units? Makes it so the boyz volume of attacks actually sting against the armour we have to deal with nowadays, while also making weapons like Big Choppas being more attractive to take en masse in Nobz units.

Yeah i am legit surprised at the stormshield change. That is an honest to goodness nerf with any attack thats not AP0, as AP1 gives them their "old invul" and AP2 is now a 4++
Marines. In light of all the massive buffs theyre getting. Got a rather severe nerf. Mind. Blown.

Stormshields always bugged me because i've always felt a 3++ shouldnt be attainable outside of a bigbad character (exception: fulgurite priests purely because if they fail that initial charge they are DEAD long before they get that 3++). The 2 local wolf players are really heated at that change because now their thunderhammer stormshield wolf riders arent as tanky *imitates crying sounds*

I'm both excited and extremely nervous as to what our codex is gonna bring when it comes eventually. I had hopes it was gonna be by the end of the year but now it looks like Q2 2021 to me with all the supplements being announced (how marine players arent seething about needing to buy a new book not even a year after the last one is beyond me)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah i am legit surprised at the stormshield change. That is an honest to goodness nerf with any attack thats not AP0, as AP1 gives them their "old invul" and AP2 is now a 4++
Marines. In light of all the massive buffs theyre getting. Got a rather severe nerf. Mind. Blown.

Stormshields always bugged me because i've always felt a 3++ shouldnt be attainable outside of a bigbad character (exception: fulgurite priests purely because if they fail that initial charge they are DEAD long before they get that 3++). The 2 local wolf players are really heated at that change because now their thunderhammer stormshield wolf riders arent as tanky *imitates crying sounds*

I'm both excited and extremely nervous as to what our codex is gonna bring when it comes eventually. I had hopes it was gonna be by the end of the year but now it looks like Q2 2021 to me with all the supplements being announced (how marine players arent seething about needing to buy a new book not even a year after the last one is beyond me)

For a 2+ model, AP0 and AP-1 give them a 2+. AP-2 gives them a 3+. And only AP-3 drops them to their invuln.

For a 3+ model, AP0 actually gives them a 2+. AP-1, a 3+. And AP-2 or better to drop them to Invuln.

thats why i said except against AP0.

And given everything that has a stormshield is multiwound i want my 2D or 3D guns hitting them, not my shootas.
I dont...think orks have a single multidamage gun that has no ap. Least none come to mind right now.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
thats why i said except against AP0.

And given everything that has a stormshield is multiwound i want my 2D or 3D guns hitting them, not my shootas.
I dont...think orks have a single multidamage gun that has no ap. Least none come to mind right now.

AP-1 doesn't give Termis their old invuln. It gives them a 2+.

And generally when I think Storm Shields, I think Terminators.

i think Wolfriders or smashcaptains

Honestly I think Deathwatch squads. But they may be who stormshields give me the most difficulty with. Bastard units of 10 of them stomping about killing waves of boyz with 10 stormbolters, a captain and the re-roll wounds of 1 against troops tactic. Never have I lost so many boyz so fast.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah i am legit surprised at the stormshield change. That is an honest to goodness nerf with any attack thats not AP0, as AP1 gives them their "old invul" and AP2 is now a 4++
Marines. In light of all the massive buffs theyre getting. Got a rather severe nerf. Mind. Blown.

Stormshields always bugged me because i've always felt a 3++ shouldnt be attainable outside of a bigbad character (exception: fulgurite priests purely because if they fail that initial charge they are DEAD long before they get that 3++). The 2 local wolf players are really heated at that change because now their thunderhammer stormshield wolf riders arent as tanky *imitates crying sounds*

I'm both excited and extremely nervous as to what our codex is gonna bring when it comes eventually. I had hopes it was gonna be by the end of the year but now it looks like Q2 2021 to me with all the supplements being announced (how marine players arent seething about needing to buy a new book not even a year after the last one is beyond me)

Spammable invul saves above a 4++ is cancer.

Hell now they have a 1+, 4++ and 4 damage Thunder hammers hitting on 3s. Cry me a river. Compare them to Mega Nobs and see if they wanna swap.

Sorry, your terminators and stuff are now fair. Cracking 3++ can be virtually impossible. At least custodes it's on expensive, *wayyyy* weaker troops, and their terminators are on 4++. Tough, but fair, given they are like 65+ points a model.

Oh gak, yeah. Now custodes with SS have a 3++ and a 1+ before AP. Damn that makes the sword and board custodes fairly intimidating. Durability wise.

cody.d. wrote:
Oh gak, yeah. Now custodes with SS have a 3++ and a 1+ before AP. Damn that makes the sword and board custodes fairly intimidating. Durability wise.

They are 56 points and their CC is nowhere near anything of a TH terminator.

Definitely tanky but you'd take them any day over the various 3 wound terminators you're about to see.

It does amuse me that White Scar Thunder Hammers about to go to flat 5.

tulun wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Oh gak, yeah. Now custodes with SS have a 3++ and a 1+ before AP. Damn that makes the sword and board custodes fairly intimidating. Durability wise.

They are 56 points and their CC is nowhere near anything of a TH terminator.

Definitely tanky but you'd take them any day over the various 3 wound terminators you're about to see.

It does amuse me that White Scar Thunder Hammers about to go to flat 5.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they did a day one FAQ to cap the damage increase at some area, because if you master craft the thunder hammer on a WS Captain, they can get 6(!!!) damage on their TH once T3 hits for assault doctrine. Absolutely bonkers.

Also, I would expect to see a LOT more SS Custodes because I think it's very likely that their swords get a +1S boost as well like regular power swords, spears might go to +2S to compensate but the difference between S6 and S7 is pretty minimal, so I wouldn't be surprised to see whole 3 man squads toting the shields.

Heavy Bolters hardly make a difference against buggies with D2. Not the right weapon to be throwing at them, maybe with a reroll wound source but even then, just firing them at buggies for lack of a better weapon to do so without wasting the likes of lascannon shots isn't going to matter.