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Madjob wrote:
Heavy Bolters hardly make a difference against buggies with D2. Not the right weapon to be throwing at them, maybe with a reroll wound source but even then, just firing them at buggies for lack of a better weapon to do so without wasting the likes of lascannon shots isn't going to matter.

I dunno, I played against an imperial fist player a lot. The +1 damage against vehicles hurt a bunch before the buff to heavy bolters. D3 heavy bolters does not sound enjoyable.

tneva82 wrote:
Who thinks boyz are good? At least here finding sun rising from west is easier than finding somebody who thinks boyz are good.

There is a thread on dakka right now where the majority of posters think that boyz are worth 3 additional points compared to guardsmen because they are a top competitive choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the stormshield change - this was dearly needed in the light of terminators going up to 3 wounds. They would be nigh impossible to kill with both 3 wounds and 3++ saves.

Well, seems that killsaw meganobz got... Better vs assault termies? They now only get 4++ and we have 3 damage killsaws with a strategem. It boils down to who fights first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and Marines are gona get a slight price hike which also helps. Now we got to deliver those manz without them getting killed... That's gona be a problem with all those antitank buffs. Back to evil sun deepstriking manz? Or simply stick with Ghaz/killa klaw boss or mek. I doubt they're gona spam termies like crazy. More like a single squad to defend center.

As for the flamer buff, I don't think it's gona be that common. And not like flamers are THAT much better than regular bolters. And I'm positive, you're not likely to see more than one flamer-dedicsted squad in a pod. And even so, it's gona be survivable. Yeah, 10 vets with combi-flamers are gona burn half the boyz squad down but... They'll cost like 1.3 squads. Overwatch gona hurt tho, but nothing we can't deal with. I mean, just charge them with a mek gun or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You're an ork. Be positive and creative. That's how we win.

 koooaei wrote:
Oh, and Marines are gona get a slight price hike which also helps. Now we got to deliver those manz without them getting killed... That's gona be a problem with all those antitank buffs. Back to evil sun deepstriking manz? Or simply stick with Ghaz/killa klaw boss or mek. I doubt they're gona spam termies like crazy. More like a single squad to defend center.

Agree about points increase. We are seeing a shift on MEC into true elite armies. Before they were sligthly more durable 1 wounders, but now they are taking off. That is not necessarily a perk though as multi wound weapons are galore in the game.

On Boyz, I believe the discussion is abit with an 8th mindset. If you approach a unit asking how killy it is you are missing the point of 9th. There´s a reason Nurglings are skyrocketing in usage. They are cheap and durable enough to hold an objective for at least a turn unless the opponent spends quite some resources to get rid of them. If they do that in no mans land you are up 1 or 2 objectives from start. Translation, you are 5 VP ahead from doing nothing. Boyz are similar. Yes, they will die to most aggression and not kill much, but that is beside the point. Their job is to force the opponents hand like the Nurglings. (Insert famous quote by Vietnamese officer to his American collegue post the Vietnam war that whilst the americans killed more it was irrelevant for the outcome of the war)

Nurglings are great because they can be on objectives even if you go second, and they are harder to kill than boyz. In addition, most of my opponents aren't particularly competitive, but none have any issues just blowing 30 boyz off an objective.

It's also not like our other units can't force your opponent's hand. I've played the troopless buggy list twice so far, and both times have been crushing victories for me because I was a lot faster than my opponent and could score almost all midfield objectives while still fighting them for the ones in/near their deployment zone.

Madjob wrote:
Heavy Bolters hardly make a difference against buggies with D2. Not the right weapon to be throwing at them, maybe with a reroll wound source but even then, just firing them at buggies for lack of a better weapon to do so without wasting the likes of lascannon shots isn't going to matter.

They are twice as good now. Never forget that with doctrines they're also AP-2 in turn 1, vehicles fire at BS3+ even if they move, and have easy access to re-rolls. I read they were going to be single shot, but if they're still heavy 3 they're definitely good against vehicles. S5 AP-2 D2 is basically disintegrator cannons, especially against ork vehicles which have mosty 4+ saves.

They just need 4 shots that go through saves against buggies and dreads to kill one model and just 3 against mek gunz, which are also only T5 and don't get any save unless they are under a KFF bubble.

If there aren't any blobs of footslogging boyz on the table, and optimized mechanized lists won't have any, buggies (and mek gunz) are exactly the perfect target for heavy bolters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

In addition, most of my opponents aren't particularly competitive, but none have any issues just blowing 30 boyz off an objective.

Yeah that's also match my experience. Many players consider several expensive high armored units to be trash because everyone should 1-shot a knight in a TAC list but in practise not many TAC lists can actually do that outside tournament metas while litterally everyone can shoot off the board 30-45 boyz per turn.

 Blackie wrote:

Yeah that's also match my experience. Many players consider several expensive high armored units to be trash because everyone should 1-shot a knight in a TAC list but in practise not many TAC lists can actually do that outside tournament metas while litterally everyone can shoot off the board 30-45 boyz per turn.

I was listening to this one recent Necron player GT winner (yes, apparently with their "low tier" current codex) talk about how in one practice game he wiped 120 boys in a single turn. And his list was built more with killing marines in mind.

Everyone wants boys to be good. They simply aren't that good. They pass muster when spammed, which gets boring. You either go all in and hope you don't get a bad matchup, or we dip into our toolbox and win in other ways.

These weapon upgrades will definitely shift us down a peg. Doesn't mean we can't win, just it'll be harder. Maybe Forgeworld will throw us a bone and Big Trakks become like 120 points of Supa Skorcha death.

 Blackie wrote:

Madjob wrote:
Heavy Bolters hardly make a difference against buggies with D2. Not the right weapon to be throwing at them, maybe with a reroll wound source but even then, just firing them at buggies for lack of a better weapon to do so without wasting the likes of lascannon shots isn't going to matter.

They are twice as good now. Never forget that with doctrines they're also AP-2 in turn 1, vehicles fire at BS3+ even if they move, and have easy access to re-rolls. I read they were going to be single shot, but if they're still heavy 3 they're definitely good against vehicles. S5 AP-2 D2 is basically disintegrator cannons, especially against ork vehicles which have mosty 4+ saves.

They just need 4 shots that go through saves against buggies and dreads to kill one model and just 3 against mek gunz, which are also only T5 and don't get any save unless they are under a KFF bubble.

If there aren't any blobs of footslogging boyz on the table, and optimized mechanized lists won't have any, buggies (and mek gunz) are exactly the perfect target for heavy bolters.

That's still 6-8 heavy bolters, and assuming that the Ork player hasn't hidden as many buggies as they can, and given the exposed ones KFF coverage. What armies bring enough heavy bolters to threaten one buggy, let alone half a dozen, in one turn? I'm not saying heavy bolters aren't getting better but they're not going to have a significant impact on buggy lists.

Bit of a weird list for your perusal:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/792074.page#10927794

I’m still of the mind our only truly competitive lists are
goff greentide boys with mega Orks
Or deffskulls buggy lists

And I’m hesitant about the future of buggy lists once the imperium gets thier massive codex boost (not to mention the Fw book update mainly helps them) and we are stuck waiting for the ork codex to update our weapons.

I think lists will open up more once our codex comes out...

gungo wrote:
I’m still of the mind our only truly competitive lists are
goff greentide boys with mega Orks
Or deffskulls buggy lists

And I’m hesitant about the future of buggy lists once the imperium gets thier massive codex boost (not to mention the Fw book update mainly helps them) and we are stuck waiting for the ork codex to update our weapons.

I think lists will open up more once our codex comes out...

I'm not inclined to agree there. The Ork codex has so many viable builds in it, I've had success with dreads (shooting and fighting), buggies, bikes, vehicles, hordes, I've got a trial list of the all-tellyporting army of doom to try out (deffkoptas and kommandos for DS, then boys and da jump for more deepstrike, plus shokkjump dragstas for even more deepstrike...)... There's so much option in Ork armies, whittling it down to 2 builds, and one of them widely regarded as effective but kinda boring to run (green tide), is very much a narrow approach or an exceptionally diverse army! Possibly the most diverse army in the game.

 some bloke wrote:

gungo wrote:
I’m still of the mind our only truly competitive lists are
goff greentide boys with mega Orks
Or deffskulls buggy lists

And I’m hesitant about the future of buggy lists once the imperium gets thier massive codex boost (not to mention the Fw book update mainly helps them) and we are stuck waiting for the ork codex to update our weapons.

I think lists will open up more once our codex comes out...

I'm not inclined to agree there. The Ork codex has so many viable builds in it, I've had success with dreads (shooting and fighting), buggies, bikes, vehicles, hordes, I've got a trial list of the all-tellyporting army of doom to try out (deffkoptas and kommandos for DS, then boys and da jump for more deepstrike, plus shokkjump dragstas for even more deepstrike...)... There's so much option in Ork armies, whittling it down to 2 builds, and one of them widely regarded as effective but kinda boring to run (green tide), is very much a narrow approach or an exceptionally diverse army! Possibly the most diverse army in the game.

I’m not saying a token unit of deffkoptas or kommandos aren’t useful Or even a pair of deffdreads nor did I specify an exact build... but in general greentide and buggy spam are the only ones placing in the competitive scene... beer and pretzels you can play with pretty much anything but a stompa... also I’ve yet to see kans do anything competitively. I assure you everything in the ork codex isn’t great...

 some bloke wrote:

gungo wrote:
I’m still of the mind our only truly competitive lists are
goff greentide boys with mega Orks
Or deffskulls buggy lists

And I’m hesitant about the future of buggy lists once the imperium gets thier massive codex boost (not to mention the Fw book update mainly helps them) and we are stuck waiting for the ork codex to update our weapons.

I think lists will open up more once our codex comes out...

I'm not inclined to agree there. The Ork codex has so many viable builds in it, I've had success with dreads (shooting and fighting), buggies, bikes, vehicles, hordes, I've got a trial list of the all-tellyporting army of doom to try out (deffkoptas and kommandos for DS, then boys and da jump for more deepstrike, plus shokkjump dragstas for even more deepstrike...)... There's so much option in Ork armies, whittling it down to 2 builds, and one of them widely regarded as effective but kinda boring to run (green tide), is very much a narrow approach or an exceptionally diverse army! Possibly the most diverse army in the game.

Depends on what type of game your are playing. Are you playing a local tourny or are you playing a grand tournament or large competitive event? I've won local tournaments with ridiculous for fun lists in 8th, but when i go to bigger events that I am actively trying to win? I will take the best ork list I can build and Deffdreadz right now are not a part of that.

Isn't that a bit of a rude assertion to make of someone you don't know?

It's true that I've not hit the tournament scene for some years now. But perhaps the only reason that these lists are the only ones placing competitively is that they are the only ones being brought? It's impossible for an ork trukk-boys list to place if no-one actually brings one!

I'm going off my experiences on a local scene, which has some pretty competitive players and I regularly hear of people drooling over the internet list they want to play for their next game. This year's put quite a dampener on my gaming scene, what with the dreaded lurgy floating around, but historically I've turned up for pick-up games against whoever wants to play, and they've brought dirty lists like iron hands or whatever the newest "unbeatable" list is, and I've managed to win through the flexibility of my army and the knowledge I have of how to run it - as, I'm sure, most of us do!

I shall be taking up tournamenting again next year, which should be ok as warhammer world features a card reader and thus the lurgy can't get me there provided I'm spending money, and no doubt will have my beliefs put to the test

It is, especially for your first post ever. What lists can win heavily depends on the meta of that event, which is the reason why we look to GT for generalist statements - the more players join an event the less likely a skewed meta is.

 some bloke wrote:
It's true that I've not hit the tournament scene for some years now. But perhaps the only reason that these lists are the only ones placing competitively is that they are the only ones being brought? It's impossible for an ork trukk-boys list to place if no-one actually brings one!

Generally if something isn't brought maybe there's reason for it...

40k/AOS aren't complex game with subtle interactions making figuring out best tactic hard. 40k is simple game with tons of clutter. It's not rocket science. There's no real secret to be found that no-one else has figured out.

tneva82 wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
It's true that I've not hit the tournament scene for some years now. But perhaps the only reason that these lists are the only ones placing competitively is that they are the only ones being brought? It's impossible for an ork trukk-boys list to place if no-one actually brings one!

Generally if something isn't brought maybe there's reason for it...

40k/AOS aren't complex game with subtle interactions making figuring out best tactic hard. 40k is simple game with tons of clutter. It's not rocket science. There's no real secret to be found that no-one else has figured out.

ah yes, the self fulfilling prophecy;

green tide and buggies place at tournament,
everyone takes these lists as they are the only ones which placed
these lists continue to be the only ones which place as they are the only ones there to place.
people continue to think that these are the only ones which could place.

It's like someone who has seen people cut down trees with an axe refusing to use a chainsaw because all the trees he's seen cut down were done with an axe. "Axes placed second at the lumberjacking tournament, anyone not taking axes isn't competitive".


I might be wrong - As I said, I'm quite out of the tournament scene these days, but I also know Orks, and I know that just because one list works at, say, 98% efficiency, it doesn't discount the other 50 types of army I could make which run at 90-95%.

Well tournament metas are very different from local ones typically as they are based on time limitations and skew lists that usually don't last for long. In these specific settings things that really have the chance to place are limited.

It doesn't mean that casual players, even those ones who play with semi-competitive and well optmized lists can't bring something completely different and have good results.

On the other hand there are lists that do very well ONLY in tournament metas and are mediocre otherwise. So take the data for what they are, numbers aren't information. Information is acquired after processing the numbers, that must be analyzed.

 Blackie wrote:
Well tournament metas are very different from local ones typically as they are based on time limitations and skew lists that usually don't last for long. In these specific settings things that really have the chance to place are limited.

It doesn't mean that casual players, even those ones who play with semi-competitive and well optmized lists can't bring something completely different and have good results.

On the other hand there are lists that do very well ONLY in tournament metas and are mediocre otherwise. So take the data for what they are, numbers aren't information. Information is acquired after processing the numbers, that must be analyzed.

Exactly. Plus,one of the "only" 2 competitive builds is the green tide, which (from what I've heard) seems to feature running out of time (and so denying the opponent the chance to kill enough orks to win) as a tactic. which to me is a little manipulative of the system - though perhaps is an issue with the system not supporting this legitimate army choice rather than the army choice itself. Green tides winning because strict time limits stop the game early is not a basis for declaring it competitive, to me.

cody.d. wrote:
Isn't that a bit of a rude assertion to make of someone you don't know?

The herd mentality is strong.

I think everyone doesn´t see a difference between before and now. Before killing and durability was VP, but now it just isn´t. The game has widened from a kill most to zone control, which is totally different. As such I find e.g. the Boyz discussion skewed. The answer to the question why take Boyz if they get shot by the opponent is "what did they not shoot then?"

Any thoughts on Freebootas competiting against Goffs? Is plus 1 to hit in melee better than exploding 6's?

 some bloke wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Well tournament metas are very different from local ones typically as they are based on time limitations and skew lists that usually don't last for long. In these specific settings things that really have the chance to place are limited.

It doesn't mean that casual players, even those ones who play with semi-competitive and well optmized lists can't bring something completely different and have good results.

On the other hand there are lists that do very well ONLY in tournament metas and are mediocre otherwise. So take the data for what they are, numbers aren't information. Information is acquired after processing the numbers, that must be analyzed.

Exactly. Plus,one of the "only" 2 competitive builds is the green tide, which (from what I've heard) seems to feature running out of time (and so denying the opponent the chance to kill enough orks to win) as a tactic. which to me is a little manipulative of the system - though perhaps is an issue with the system not supporting this legitimate army choice rather than the army choice itself. Green tides winning because strict time limits stop the game early is not a basis for declaring it competitive, to me.

Green tide wins a lot (every edition) because it’s simply anti meta...
great you bought a bunch of anti vehicle weapons vs greentide... you just killed a single ork with a lascannon...
It’s not as if boys profile are amazing. It’s optimizing the ork list and forcing your opponent to take a bunch of overpriced units to kill a bunch of boys. This edition also helps since there is 1 less turn and it’s all about scoring objectives...
Then there is the ace in the hole....great you almost killed this 30 man unit... let me strat green tide back 1/4 of my list points for free and let you do it all over again. I assure you most people don’t play green tide because they enjoy moving 80+ models...

Also green tide and buggy spam were always said to be our best lists since the rules leaked.... I haven’t seen a lot of surprises in tournies since then except that one guy who won with a few bikes... I’m also surprised I haven’t seen many chinorks in tournies as they seem good.

In general I’m just saying dread Mob, trukk boys, bike spam, wagon rush isn’t that strong. I’m not saying you can’t play with them... I’m just saying they aren’t truly competitive.

gungo wrote:

I’m also surprised I haven’t seen many chinorks in tournies as they seem good.

They're OOP since ages and not all tournaments allow scratch built models and conversions, especially if they aren't 100% GW plastic/metal/resin. That's why.

 some bloke wrote:
Exactly. Plus,one of the "only" 2 competitive builds is the green tide, which (from what I've heard) seems to feature running out of time (and so denying the opponent the chance to kill enough orks to win) as a tactic. which to me is a little manipulative of the system - though perhaps is an issue with the system not supporting this legitimate army choice rather than the army choice itself. Green tides winning because strict time limits stop the game early is not a basis for declaring it competitive, to me.

That is not how timed events work. If you run out of time you pretty much are not allowed to take any optional actions any more (move, shoot, charge), but your opponent gets to act as normal until they run out of time as well.

I think it's a bit premature to say there are only two builds that work in the Ork codex.

Forgeworld might shake things up for us -- what if they actually make our crap good?

But to be honest, our codex is probably best divided into main archetypes -- Mech and horde. Mech may have a couple different lists that could work (maybe a triple wagon list might be deadly, along with 5-6 buggies), or just the straight 9+ buggy spam, but I doubt you're going to see some weird true hybrid of the two that places well in a GT or major.

A new codex may change everything, but we simply don't have the underpriced units and obscure datasheets to really push beyond that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will say, though, I think the straight up buggy list is going to start falling out of favour.

It has a couple of problems:

1) A dense terrain board may make it too hard to maneuver your list. Massive bases, they are easily move blocked because they don't fly. If tournaments start catching up on amount of terrain, I think massed buggies are going to get jammed up in their deployment zone, or be easily moved blocked by a ton of units.

2) Little to no actions possible. You need infantry to perform actions, and in matchups where the enemy gives up no kill secondary, you need to be able to perform one in your back pocket.

I wager the stronger list that will emerge will be a lot of buggies *with* a bunch of mounted infantry / Stormboyz / Kommandos / Mega Nobs. Stuff that can deploy scramblers, plant a banner, etc. You'll lose some fire power but in the grand scheme of things, all you need to do is score. You can get tabled and still win.

 some bloke wrote:
ah yes, the self fulfilling prophecy;

green tide and buggies place at tournament,
everyone takes these lists as they are the only ones which placed
these lists continue to be the only ones which place as they are the only ones there to place.
people continue to think that these are the only ones which could place.

It's like someone who has seen people cut down trees with an axe refusing to use a chainsaw because all the trees he's seen cut down were done with an axe. "Axes placed second at the lumberjacking tournament, anyone not taking axes isn't competitive".


I might be wrong - As I said, I'm quite out of the tournament scene these days, but I also know Orks, and I know that just because one list works at, say, 98% efficiency, it doesn't discount the other 50 types of army I could make which run at 90-95%.

... not really. At least in dakka's community we have lots of players experimenting with lots of things, and the probably best ork player in 8th, Steve Pampreen, regularly placed well with completely insane combinations of units.

Buggies and green tide have proven to work well, not just because of the four tournament results we've got, but also because of all the people posting in this thread sharing their experiences. People have been playing with buggies and Thrakka tides well before the first tournaments lists have been posted. The results just confirmed what most of us were already thinking.
And it's also not like many ork units have changed massively from 8th to 9th - the chance that a unit that was barely holding up like warbikers suddenly becomes competitive despite costing more and losing one of it's most valuable assets is rather small.

When you actually take a look at the tournament lists(can now be found in the first post, thanks to the_scotsman), you'll find the two buggy lists to be be massively different from each other, even the two green tides have lots of differences. The argument that people are blindly following those winning lists doesn't actually have any ground to stand on.

The thing is, buggies and green tides are not *lists* they are archetypes. The buggy archetype revolves (obviously) around bringing a bunch of scrapjets and SJD, but outside of that basically any vehicle is fair game for that list. Green tide currently revolves around bringing three or more units of goff boyz and Thrakka. In both cases, you have almost half your points to run wild with your personal style.

You wrote:

The Ork codex has so many viable builds in it, I've had success with dreads (shooting and fighting), buggies, bikes, vehicles, hordes, I've got a trial list of the all-tellyporting army of doom to try out (deffkoptas and kommandos for DS, then boys and da jump for more deepstrike, plus shokkjump dragstas for even more deepstrike...)... There's so much option in Ork armies, whittling it down to 2 builds, and one of them widely regarded as effective but kinda boring to run (green tide), is very much a narrow approach or an exceptionally diverse army! Possibly the most diverse army in the game.

"dreads, buggies, vehicles" when optimized all end up with some sort of permutation of the buggy list.
Even your all-tellyporting army of doom just describes a tide list with a creative choice for fire support.

Archetypes of old simply have proven to longer work. Spamming walkers to form a dead mob doesn't work because nauts and dreads heavily rely on kustom jobs to be good and because it simply isn't hard to stop a wall of walkers running at you at slow speeds. Even casual gamers are prepared to stop knights and daemon primarchs within two turns, what chance do ork walkers stand when they need three turns to get there? Walkers are great assets to both buggy armies and footslogging armies, but they can't carry an entire army.
Trukk lists? Well, we have a winning trukk spam list. Except it also brought buggies, because they simply are great units which fit perfectly with trukks.
The battlewagon bash is falling apart because of two major problems, the first being battlewagons being too expensive (one of the few vehicles which costs more in 9th than in 5th) and the second being that there aren't any good passengers worth transporting anymore. Neither boyz nor nobz can pull their own weight in combat and flash gits or tank bustas are just too expensive. Without the ability to create 3-5 wagons of similar threat level, the archetype simply doesn't work, and believe me no one is more disappointed about that than me.

In any case, I suggest dipping back into the game and following the discussion here first before looking for the holy grail of ork competitiveness. It's unlikely to be hidden in plain sight

 Jidmah wrote:

one of the few vehicles which costs more in 9th than in 5th

Do you mean 8th, right?

Because trukks cost more than twice they used to be (30pts) in 5th. Pretty much every vehicle in the game is more expensive in 9th than in 5th, and typically by a significant margin. Kanz, rhinos, razorbacks, land raiders, venoms, raiders, etc... all cheaper if not WAY cheaper. Of course also more squishy though, unless they were in cover.

But also dreads, kanz, nauts and buggies cost more than in 8th, they all went up by 10-30 points. The BW went up 16 points, it's basically the same price hike in percentage than the buggies got. Maybe the SJD stayed the same, I don't remember since I never play it in 8th but KBB went from 80 to 90 and MSJ from 100 to 110.

This is MASSIVE.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/16/core-units-and-characters/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another top 4 for us too.

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-invasion-gt/

tulun wrote:
This is MASSIVE.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/16/core-units-and-characters/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another top 4 for us too.

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-invasion-gt/

Pretty nice way to nerf parking lot SM lists. Slight nerf to Ghaz too though which is a bummer.