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Bloat refers to the ruleset getting littered with countless additions to it, many of them unnecessary or redundant. For the PA series could be considered bloat for 8th.

What you guy are referring to is called "power creep", which means a constant increase of power with each release.

RP is bloated beyond believe. And i mostly blame their new way of writing everything out as literal "one at a time" events.
Its confusing as hell, you almost cant read anything in the new codexes once and even have a remote understanding how it works right. You gotta read it slowly and take into context how the core rules are written for it to make sense.

Im already seeing it a lot. Necron players are confused, thinking that if 19 of 20 warriors died and you somehow passed all 19 RP rolls only 1 warrior stands up. Which isnt the case, its worded "one at a time, spend the successful die to revive a model" because it factors in multiwounded models as needing multiple dice.

Im expecting the FAQs for these new codexes (FAQ, not Eratta) to be rather huge because people will just get lost and confused way too often.

Does make me wonder how the ork codex is going to be tweaked when it eventually comes out. Hopefully brought in line with the current design styles. The traits brought up to the quality of the Deffskulls. (by comparison the goffs, badmoons and snakebites feel pretty weak.)

In the old rules, C'tan had a rule called "Above All Others" which meant they couldn't join units and effectively sacrificed their character protection for being awesome.

I could imagine the Void Dragon getting such a rule to prevent him being seriously overpowered. Though they'll likely test run him against primaris with lots of snipers and declare him to be balanced.

Liking the idea of MSU boys on foot, actually. Makes a lot of sense for mitigating overkill and morale, and also allows them to screen each other for extended durability. 3 units of 10 boys could camp an objective more effectively than 1 unit of 30, with 2 units forming a wall and the third set back on the objective. Plus they can split up if they survive to the later game to snag lost objectives without losing their existing ones.

 Jidmah wrote:
Personally, the second list looks pretty interesting. A reasonable amount of boyz, visions of smoke on da boomer and lots deff skulls MANz with PKs. It's really amazing how many different ork builds are doing well right now.

I think players are starting to see a wider picture of the game. This guy basically says he´s playing a delaying action concerning the actual fighting, but going all in for the VP-play. Connecting back to my earlier argumentation that Boyz being good (cheap semi-durable infantry that doesn´t give up many VP is perfect for actions and objective duty) and play 9th, not 8th, this list is of the that strategy. It´s very interesting and makes the games more fun imo.

And it's not only an Ork thing really. You could do similar things with Marine Scouts or Wind Riders mixed up with fighting elements. Basically weigh between fighting and scoring elements where before it was all fighting.

I've just had a little Ork-epiphany for a tricky little combo to throw down the opponents throat on turn 1:

Evil Suns, with a Deffkilla Wartrike, Gorkanaught, Orkymatic Pistons, and a KFF Mek inside with Rezmekkas Redder Armour.

I've never run the Redder Armour, but it sounds like an ideal combo with the gorkanaught - +1 movement and mortal wounds to nearby units on a 4+ - ideal if your opponent tries a counter-charge.

I'm making a list marrying this with 2 units of deffkoptas to act as a charging-in screen to hold the enemy back for a turn whilst I develop a foothold. It should be pretty easy to get into turn 1 charges this this lot:

Wartrike: 23" + 2D6+1" charge
Deffkoptas: 23" + 2D6+1" charge, flying
Gorkanaught: 13" + D6+1" + 3D6+1" charge (ramming speed)

Averages (without rerolls) are:
Wartrike & Koptas: 31" charge range
Gorkanaught: 29" charge range

and there's points to spare for a few units of boys to hunker down on objectives.

I'm also considering bringing an Aegis Defense line and a unit of gretchin. The grots are short enough that they can't be seen behind the aegis, so they can be wrapped up on an objective and the only way to get them is to charge them - too bad you're stuck in your deployment zone with my screen! The boys will move onto objectives, and maybe some kommandos to close the gaps.

What do you guys think?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Same.
Its fine on Ghaz because he cant hide. The Void Dragon can, and im feeling a bit dirty knowing i just bought into necrons and that beast is coming lol

You ASSUME he can hide.

I suspect all c'tans won't be characters. Those tower over necrons so character protection always felt silly. It was needed to prevent them always dying before doing anything. This solves that issue so both protections are unneeded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Billagio wrote:

gungo wrote:
Just noticed the necron void dragon ctan is getting the ghaz wound per phase limit but at 3 wounds per phase... plus he can heal himself by killing vehicles...

GW is going to hand out that ability to a lot of units in this edition... I honestly think it’s a bad idea giving abilities like this to artificially make units immune.

Dont forget as the datasheet currently stands, Ctan are characters so he would get character protection on top of it

We haven't seen full datasheet of void dragon though. We don't know are they characters. Or maybe it's just void dragon ability and he isn't character. All all c'tans get same ability and all lose character.

We haven't SEEN actual datasheet. we have seen just bits and pieces.

I finished my Koptas list, it's in the Army Lists section.

Realised that both "Visions in da smoke" and Warpath are excellent choices for deffkoptas - rerolling 10 rokkit shots, and then charging in with 3D3 S5 attacks apiece, which reroll to hit, is going to be pretty effective!

Not sure how More Dakka would work on that unit if it got Visions - 10 rokkits, dakka-ing on 5's, rerolling to hit - could stack up to a lot of damage!

-Edit: Did the maths on 10 rokkit shots, and without visions we get 3.8 hits, With Visions we get 7.1 hits and with visions and more dakka we get 8.6 hits. So More Dakka's only worth it if you have excess CP to burn for an extra hit or two.

This should translate to 3-4 unsaved wounds on a T8 model and 5-6 unsaved on a T7 model, which is a fair chunk of damage to an enemy big'un.

Also keep in mind that koptas can use long, uncontrolled bursts if you really want to mess up something like a primaris tank.

 Jidmah wrote:
Also keep in mind that koptas can use long, uncontrolled bursts if you really want to mess up something like a primaris tank.

Yes, I knew there was something else which I'd thought of and then forgotten!

I believe that they can also charge fliers, which is a good utility!

Maths with VITS (Visions In The Smoke), LUB (Long Uncontrolled Bursts) and MD (More Dakka) on 5 koptas firing 10 rokkits:

Nothing: 3.9 hits
VITS: 7.1 hits
VITS, MD: 8.6 hits
VITS, LUB: 9.4 hits
VITS, MD, LUB: 11.25 hits (yep, we average more hits than shots)

So if you're low on CP and got Visions off on a unit of koptas, Long Uncontrolled bursts is better than More Dakka, and both somehow pushes our average hits to 112.5%, making orks the most accurate army in the game. Huzzah!

tneva82 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Same.
Its fine on Ghaz because he cant hide. The Void Dragon can, and im feeling a bit dirty knowing i just bought into necrons and that beast is coming lol

You ASSUME he can hide.

I suspect all c'tans won't be characters. Those tower over necrons so character protection always felt silly. It was needed to prevent them always dying before doing anything. This solves that issue so both protections are unneeded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Billagio wrote:

gungo wrote:
Just noticed the necron void dragon ctan is getting the ghaz wound per phase limit but at 3 wounds per phase... plus he can heal himself by killing vehicles...

GW is going to hand out that ability to a lot of units in this edition... I honestly think it’s a bad idea giving abilities like this to artificially make units immune.

Dont forget as the datasheet currently stands, Ctan are characters so he would get character protection on top of it

We haven't seen full datasheet of void dragon though. We don't know are they characters. Or maybe it's just void dragon ability and he isn't character. All all c'tans get same ability and all lose character.

We haven't SEEN actual datasheet. we have seen just bits and pieces.

I mean yeah I know. Thats why I mentioned "as it currently stands" aka how the C'Tan sheet currently exists in the 8th edition codex. Obviously the void dragon isnt in there, im making an inference based on data we have now. Everything could change (and should)

 some bloke wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Also keep in mind that koptas can use long, uncontrolled bursts if you really want to mess up something like a primaris tank.

Yes, I knew there was something else which I'd thought of and then forgotten!

I believe that they can also charge fliers, which is a good utility!

Maths with VITS (Visions In The Smoke), LUB (Long Uncontrolled Bursts) and MD (More Dakka) on 5 koptas firing 10 rokkits:

Nothing: 3.9 hits
VITS: 7.1 hits
VITS, MD: 8.6 hits
VITS, LUB: 9.4 hits
VITS, MD, LUB: 11.25 hits (yep, we average more hits than shots)

So if you're low on CP and got Visions off on a unit of koptas, Long Uncontrolled bursts is better than More Dakka, and both somehow pushes our average hits to 112.5%, making orks the most accurate army in the game. Huzzah!

I'll probably try a mixed ES/DS list with a unit of 5 Deff Koptas.

The really powerful thing is actually the ability for the deff Koptas to fire and fade -- so for 1 CP, they can move 23" to get a shot off, then move another 23" after that to get hidden.

 some bloke wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Also keep in mind that koptas can use long, uncontrolled bursts if you really want to mess up something like a primaris tank.

Yes, I knew there was something else which I'd thought of and then forgotten!

I believe that they can also charge fliers, which is a good utility!

Maths with VITS (Visions In The Smoke), LUB (Long Uncontrolled Bursts) and MD (More Dakka) on 5 koptas firing 10 rokkits:

Nothing: 3.9 hits
VITS: 7.1 hits
VITS, MD: 8.6 hits
VITS, LUB: 9.4 hits
VITS, MD, LUB: 11.25 hits (yep, we average more hits than shots)

So if you're low on CP and got Visions off on a unit of koptas, Long Uncontrolled bursts is better than More Dakka, and both somehow pushes our average hits to 112.5%, making orks the most accurate army in the game. Huzzah!

Good job! I see you Mr. Repulsor with your FLY keyword!

 Jidmah wrote:
So, what exactly is the problem then?
The ork codex was released two years ago and I think no would disagree that playing index orks sucked.

Time and money I got 3 scrapjets painted up but if I wanted to run ES in 8th I would have needed at least twice that

I got six buggies in the same time and I'm both lazy and got a family to feed.

 Jidmah wrote:
I got six buggies in the same time and I'm both lazy and got a family to feed.

HAHA, i felt guilty even getting 3.

Mucking about with list building again and found that a unit of 3 bikes with a kombi-skorcha nob comes in at under 100 points, and looks like a handy little unit for clearing screens. I've thrown a 1k list together featuring 3 of such units, with some other skorcha-themed units and the pyromaniaks kulture. I think it has... ...12 skorchas in the list? 3 bikers, deffkilla, 5 kombi-skorcha nobs and a big trakk with 3 skorchas on it for them to ride in.

the unit of 3 bikers with kombi-skorcha gets 18 S5 shots, + D6 S5 AP-1 hits, + 2 shoota shots at 6+ to hit, all for about 93 points I think? with 7 T5 4+ wounds to get through to get rid of the nob, it looks like it should be decent.

 some bloke wrote:
Mucking about with list building again and found that a unit of 3 bikes with a kombi-skorcha nob comes in at under 100 points, and looks like a handy little unit for clearing screens. I've thrown a 1k list together featuring 3 of such units, with some other skorcha-themed units and the pyromaniaks kulture. I think it has... ...12 skorchas in the list? 3 bikers, deffkilla, 5 kombi-skorcha nobs and a big trakk with 3 skorchas on it for them to ride in.

the unit of 3 bikers with kombi-skorcha gets 18 S5 shots, + D6 S5 AP-1 hits, + 2 shoota shots at 6+ to hit, all for about 93 points I think? with 7 T5 4+ wounds to get through to get rid of the nob, it looks like it should be decent.

That's an interesting bargain alternative to taking a KBB, the KBB is obviously better in terms of shooting, but I feel like the main flexibility for the 3 bikers is that their base sizes are nowhere near as limiting and they're lower profile enough that it's easy to hide them behind terrain and then zoom forwards to fry chaff units. I assume you'd take them as Evil Sunz? Gives them that extra movement boost and flexibility to advance and shoot with full BS if necessary.

some bloke wrote:I'm still puzzling over how to make Killa Kans work. There has to be some way to make them at least playable, if not competitive.

I keep wishing I could run 12 forward with a Snakebite character to make them immune to bravery tests. The +1 to W strat to help in CC but the poor selection of shooting weaponry hurts. TBH I'm wondering what spamming Big Shootas would do. Or a Mek giving a 5++ and 6+++ from being Snakebite could do holding an objective. The 6+++ DPR is better on Kanz than boyz cause if you leave that one Kan with a wound it takes a bit more and significant shooting to remove it for your opponent.

Jidmah wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
I'm still puzzling over how to make Killa Kans work. There has to be some way to make them at least playable, if not competitive.

Put three of them stacked on each other in a trenchcoat and use as morkanaut

That is hilarious.

tulun wrote:9th is a wild edition.

Edit: personally though, I think these horde lists are only doing well because the boogeymen are elite armies ( Custodes, SM ). As soon as that stops being true and people bring even a couple hairs more horde clearing I would wager these boy lists stop placing.

I think the more relaxed view is it takes 6 ish months for an edition to take form. The problem is social media, coverage and GW seeding books and rules has never been more present. People are nay-saying in a pandemic, and very early stages of the game.

I just saw that Ynnari list bet 3rd in that NZ GT showing Xenos aren't in a bad spot. The game shifted from Table Opponent to objective scoring so board control, engaging on multiple fronts, using your army's tools, all this to counter Space Marines just tabling with incredible reliably points efficient armies.

popisdead wrote:

Or a Mek giving a 5++ and 6+++ from being Snakebite could do holding an objective. The 6+++ DPR is better on Kanz than boyz cause if you leave that one Kan with a wound it takes a bit more and significant shooting to remove it for your opponent.

Kanz are <GRETCHIN> so they can't have the snakebite's kultur, or any other kultur other than the Grot Mobs subkultur from SotB. No 6+++ for them.

 Jidmah wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
I'm still puzzling over how to make Killa Kans work. There has to be some way to make them at least playable, if not competitive.

Put three of them stacked on each other in a trenchcoat and use as morkanaut

Honestly, that is the best use of killa kans I have ever heard, right next to buying two kits of kans to make 3 deff dreads and saving 55$

Best use for Kanz? I'd say take their legs off, build up a massive gun on their sides and call them Mek gun emplacements. Sadly they sort of pale in comparison compared to dreads or sentinels atm.

I know its not great but I ended up buying a mekboy workshop since I like the model and I want to get some use of it in game. If I use the tellyporta strategem to deep strike it in, can I set up half of it on one side of the board and the other half on the opposite side? And does "no setting up terrain on objectives" only matter at the start of the game or would it apply here as well?

miscNouns wrote:
I know its not great but I ended up buying a mekboy workshop since I like the model and I want to get some use of it in game. If I use the tellyporta strategem to deep strike it in, can I set up half of it on one side of the board and the other half on the opposite side? And does "no setting up terrain on objectives" only matter at the start of the game or would it apply here as well?

Keep in mind that only the actual workshop is the terrain piece on the datasheet. The scatter terrain is just barricades and battlefield debris that can also be gotten from other boxes.

While you are technically allowed to place it directly on objectives, in my experience with the 3" rule in place you can consider yourself to be lucky to find any place to put down a fortification at all.
Since the mek workshop is an obstacle and not area terrain, the use of putting it on an objective is limited anyways.

 Grimskul wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
Mucking about with list building again and found that a unit of 3 bikes with a kombi-skorcha nob comes in at under 100 points, and looks like a handy little unit for clearing screens. I've thrown a 1k list together featuring 3 of such units, with some other skorcha-themed units and the pyromaniaks kulture. I think it has... ...12 skorchas in the list? 3 bikers, deffkilla, 5 kombi-skorcha nobs and a big trakk with 3 skorchas on it for them to ride in.

the unit of 3 bikers with kombi-skorcha gets 18 S5 shots, + D6 S5 AP-1 hits, + 2 shoota shots at 6+ to hit, all for about 93 points I think? with 7 T5 4+ wounds to get through to get rid of the nob, it looks like it should be decent.

That's an interesting bargain alternative to taking a KBB, the KBB is obviously better in terms of shooting, but I feel like the main flexibility for the 3 bikers is that their base sizes are nowhere near as limiting and they're lower profile enough that it's easy to hide them behind terrain and then zoom forwards to fry chaff units. I assume you'd take them as Evil Sunz? Gives them that extra movement boost and flexibility to advance and shoot with full BS if necessary.

I do enjoy taking bikers as evil suns, having 17+D6" moves every turn and still shooting normally (and charging if a wartrike's around) is excellent for board control. Alas, the dakkaguns still fall quite short of being effective, but the kombi-skorcha with a threat range of 25+D6" would be pretty good. 3 units of 3 bikes with a skorcha in each would be under 300 points and can readily cause havoc on any flank, particularly if it's infantry heavy. They can easily mow down light infantry further back with dakkaguns whilst using skorchas to clear the closer one - potentially clearing 2 screens between them. S5 AP-1 has also got decent potential vs marines, though it's not the ideal target!

Some Bloke: the war biker nob cannot take a Skorcha. Check page 83 of your codex.

Do you guys run your Meganobs as Death Skulls or Goffs mostly?
Next week i`ll play 7-8 Meganobs, Killa Klaw MA Big Mek, Ghazghkull and probably a Bonebreaker + Forktress Gunwaggon + Morka / Gorkanaut for lots of T8 targets.
All of them running a 5++ and some Buggies, Boys & toys to round up the list.

Have been playing DS so far, but thinking about adding them to Ghazgkulls Detachment for some extra damage.
Not sure if loosing ObSec & 6++ is worth it tough, also they kinda want to work without Ghaz so i am not a 100% sure about Goff MANz.

 Grotrebel wrote:
Do you guys run your Meganobs as Death Skulls or Goffs mostly?
Next week i`ll play 7-8 Meganobs, Killa Klaw MA Big Mek, Ghazghkull and probably a Bonebreaker + Forktress Gunwaggon + Morka / Gorkanaut for lots of T8 targets.
All of them running a 5++ and some Buggies, Boys & toys to round up the list.

Have been playing DS so far, but thinking about adding them to Ghazgkulls Detachment for some extra damage.
Not sure if loosing ObSec & 6++ is worth it tough, also they kinda want to work without Ghaz so i am not a 100% sure about Goff MANz.

If most of your list is non-inf then I'd keep it as DS to avoid losing CP pointlessly. If you're bringing manz/boyz/nobz with Ghaz that's a different story and it depends how much you're bringing for it to be worth it. In general you usually want to go fully one (boyz) or another (meks). Mixing just makes it easier for your opponent to shoot you off the field with w.e they bring as most list have a mix of weapons.


Question of my own. I caved in and bought the stupid Mek Workshop. I have 2 Battlewagons and every car (2 scraps and 2 burnas even). I had to get it and I have to run it to be on an Evil Sunz theme. I can't resist anymore. I know I'll never make it good, but what's the best use I can get out of this dumb thing?

I almost want to deepstrike it in the middle and then rush a unit up so I can use it's klaw for the lulz

Forktress Gunwagon? Why not Forktress Bonebreaka and Da Boomer instead?

 Blackie wrote:

popisdead wrote:

Or a Mek giving a 5++ and 6+++ from being Snakebite could do holding an objective. The 6+++ DPR is better on Kanz than boyz cause if you leave that one Kan with a wound it takes a bit more and significant shooting to remove it for your opponent.

Kanz are <GRETCHIN> so they can't have the snakebite's kultur, or any other kultur other than the Grot Mobs subkultur from SotB. No 6+++ for them.

Crap thanks for that. I was originally musing over MANz in Snakebites and kept thinking along that lines...