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tulun wrote:
Some Bloke: the war biker nob cannot take a Skorcha. Check page 83 of your codex.

Dang! I'll have to read that when I get home. I fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Armageddon," but only slightly less well-known is this: Never use Battlescribe as rules!

I just can't wrap my head around Ork warbikers being 27pts when their SM equivalents were what? 21pts? And their pair of boltguns dish out 4 shots at BS3 sometimes with -1 AP and do 2.66 hits for 1.33 wounds and .44 dmg (.67 with -1AP) vs a Space Marine while our Dakkaguns do 6 shots for 2.16 hits and 1.44 wounds and .48 dmg vs Marines.

Apparently that little boost to shooting and being a bit better in CC (SM getting +1 attack after charging/being charged) is worth a 23% increase in price and -1 armor.

I just can't imagine them being competitive in a meta right now that favors killing elites and multi-wound models.

Warbikers have already shown up in a top tournament lists, while marine bikers have not been near tournaments in years.

Comparing points from one codex to another is a waste of time.

True. When there's even more broken stuff available unit that would be AAA class in any other codex sucks.

 Jidmah wrote:
Warbikers have already shown up in a top tournament lists, while marine bikers have not been near tournaments in years.

Comparing points from one codex to another is a waste of time.

Tneva said it perfectly

tneva82 wrote:
True. When there's even more broken stuff available unit that would be AAA class in any other codex sucks.

Why Take Bikers to kill chaff units when you have aggressors or intercessors or etc. etc. Space Marine bikers are as good as Ork Warbikers but significantly cheaper. You don't see Space Marine bikers in lists because SM's have 10 options that are better. Doesn't mean warbikers are in a better place than Bikes meta wise, just that they are less likely to be used

Hey guys, sorry to interrupt the conversation, I'm thinking about building up my old Assault on Blackreach mob into a real army. I was inspired by the Goff Horde featured on Goonhammer. I was thinking about going the Evil Sunz route with my Deffkoptas (though they don't seem great with the Rokkits) and some other fast elements instead of Ghazzy and the Meganob Trukks.

Right now I'm debating when or if a Nob with Waaagh! Banner is good. I don't see it getting played anywhere, but it doesn't look that bad to me intuitively. If I'm planning around 90-120 Boyz, it seems like it'd buff ~60 of them. For 88 points, you could take 11 more Boyz, but you can't actually get them into engagement range. In those situations, it seems like the Banner helps front-load the damage.

Also, is it overkill to take a Warboss and give Follow Me Ladz to another character to spread out Waaagh! auras? I know Brutal but Kunnin' is the go-to pick, but it seems like actual overkill with Da Killa Klaw most of the time.

 DarkHound wrote:
Hey guys, sorry to interrupt the conversation, I'm thinking about building up my old Assault on Blackreach mob into a real army. I was inspired by the Goff Horde featured on Goonhammer. I was thinking about going the Evil Sunz route with my Deffkoptas (though they don't seem great with the Rokkits) and some other fast elements instead of Ghazzy and the Meganob Trukks.

Right now I'm debating when or if a Nob with Waaagh! Banner is good. I don't see it getting played anywhere, but it doesn't look that bad to me intuitively. If I'm planning around 90-120 Boyz, it seems like it'd buff ~60 of them. For 88 points, you could take 11 more Boyz, but you can't actually get them into engagement range. In those situations, it seems like the Banner helps front-load the damage.

Also, is it overkill to take a Warboss and give Follow Me Ladz to another character to spread out Waaagh! auras? I know Brutal but Kunnin' is the go-to pick, but it seems like actual overkill with Da Killa Klaw most of the time.

The reason why I think most people don't bother taking the Waaagh Banner Nob is because his aura is very limited since a lot of the times the boyz will charge out of range of him, especially now that conga-lining like in previous editions doesn't work. Furthermore, those 11 Boyz you can't fit into engagement range will still be bodies you take away to either keep your 20+ attack bonus or prevent the unit from losing out on the boyz that are actually in combat. They're also very vulnerable to being sniped since LoS is no longer based on just being behind your mobs of boyz, you actually have to be within 3" of them.

As far as WAAAGH! Auras go, Follow Me Ladz is actually a better call since it combined with a Big Mek in MA with KFF and The Kleverest Boss upgrade more or less make him into a mini-warboss with more utility. You might have the Killa Klaw on the WB, but a Big Mek with Killsaw is still going to do decent work in CC and having multiple WAAAGH! auras is crucial for the mobility and extra morale protection for a Green Tide style list.

 DarkHound wrote:
Hey guys, sorry to interrupt the conversation, I'm thinking about building up my old Assault on Blackreach mob into a real army. I was inspired by the Goff Horde featured on Goonhammer. I was thinking about going the Evil Sunz route with my Deffkoptas (though they don't seem great with the Rokkits) and some other fast elements instead of Ghazzy and the Meganob Trukks.

Right now I'm debating when or if a Nob with Waaagh! Banner is good. I don't see it getting played anywhere, but it doesn't look that bad to me intuitively. If I'm planning around 90-120 Boyz, it seems like it'd buff ~60 of them. For 88 points, you could take 11 more Boyz, but you can't actually get them into engagement range. In those situations, it seems like the Banner helps front-load the damage.

Also, is it overkill to take a Warboss and give Follow Me Ladz to another character to spread out Waaagh! auras? I know Brutal but Kunnin' is the go-to pick, but it seems like actual overkill with Da Killa Klaw most of the time.

The Stephen Mitchell list on the first page of this thread uses a WAAAGH Banner nob, and it's also a goff horde so it should fit into what you were looking at doing. It is only 89 boyz though if that matters.

 some bloke wrote:

tulun wrote:
Some Bloke: the war biker nob cannot take a Skorcha. Check page 83 of your codex.

Dang! I'll have to read that when I get home. I fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Armageddon," but only slightly less well-known is this: Never use Battlescribe as rules!

Inconceivable!

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Warbikers have already shown up in a top tournament lists, while marine bikers have not been near tournaments in years.

Comparing points from one codex to another is a waste of time.

Tneva said it perfectly

tneva82 wrote:
True. When there's even more broken stuff available unit that would be AAA class in any other codex sucks.

Why Take Bikers to kill chaff units when you have aggressors or intercessors or etc. etc. Space Marine bikers are as good as Ork Warbikers but significantly cheaper. You don't see Space Marine bikers in lists because SM's have 10 options that are better. Doesn't mean warbikers are in a better place than Bikes meta wise, just that they are less likely to be used

The discussion should be "how do I use warbikers to maximum effect", not "space marines get better warbikers".

The thing is, you're currently complaining just for the sake of complaining. The ork codex hasn't been in a place as good as now in... ever? And you chose to complain about a single unit that actually got used in a tournament because it's better than a random thing in a completely different codex.
How about we just stop complaining out of habit and appreciate that orks are for once doing really, really good. There are multiple competitive builds and a large portion of our codex is playable. Few other armies can say the same about their codex.

 DarkHound wrote:
Hey guys, sorry to interrupt the conversation, I'm thinking about building up my old Assault on Blackreach mob into a real army. I was inspired by the Goff Horde featured on Goonhammer. I was thinking about going the Evil Sunz route with my Deffkoptas (though they don't seem great with the Rokkits) and some other fast elements instead of Ghazzy and the Meganob Trukks.

Kopta rokkits aren't bad, they're just way too expensive (50 vs 35) if they don't get the deathskullz re-rolls. Taking twin big shootas saves you 30-45 points, which is significant, especially because those koptas don't have any redundancy in those kinds of lists so it is better to keep them as cheap as possible. Kopta rokkits are good in deathskullz or freebootas lists with other vehicles.

 DarkHound wrote:

Right now I'm debating when or if a Nob with Waaagh! Banner is good. I don't see it getting played anywhere, but it doesn't look that bad to me intuitively. If I'm planning around 90-120 Boyz, it seems like it'd buff ~60 of them. For 88 points, you could take 11 more Boyz, but you can't actually get them into engagement range. In those situations, it seems like the Banner helps front-load the damage.

The banner nob is expensive as sin, even a warboss is cheaper. For 90-120 boyz it sounds good on paper but maybe 30-60 of those boyz are going to be jumped and other 30ish will die before getting the aura. In practise a banner nob buffing 60 boyz, let alone more of them, isn't that easy.

Not really a bad unit but I'd only justify it if a player doesn't have other options available, but a limited collection.

 DarkHound wrote:

Also, is it overkill to take a Warboss and give Follow Me Ladz to another character to spread out Waaagh! auras? I know Brutal but Kunnin' is the go-to pick, but it seems like actual overkill with Da Killa Klaw most of the time.

I actually prefer Follow Me Ladz to the warboss over any other trait, and it's my go-to for him. The reason why I do this is that his aura is handy for mobile armies (which I typically play) and that extra range really helps, but if you play with a footslogging horde of boyz it may be "overkill". Brutal but Kunning is very good of course but redundant most of the times as a Warboss with killa klaw and da biggest boss is already a moster in close combat, and as you noticed that trait can be "overkill" as well. Deathskulls boss also get the re-roll, and +1CP is always useful for orks.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Warbikers have already shown up in a top tournament lists, while marine bikers have not been near tournaments in years.

Comparing points from one codex to another is a waste of time.

Tneva said it perfectly

tneva82 wrote:
True. When there's even more broken stuff available unit that would be AAA class in any other codex sucks.

Why Take Bikers to kill chaff units when you have aggressors or intercessors or etc. etc. Space Marine bikers are as good as Ork Warbikers but significantly cheaper. You don't see Space Marine bikers in lists because SM's have 10 options that are better. Doesn't mean warbikers are in a better place than Bikes meta wise, just that they are less likely to be used

The discussion should be "how do I use warbikers to maximum effect", not "space marines get better warbikers".

The thing is, you're currently complaining just for the sake of complaining. The ork codex hasn't been in a place as good as now in... ever? And you chose to complain about a single unit that actually got used in a tournament because it's better than a random thing in a completely different codex.
How about we just stop complaining out of habit and appreciate that orks are for once doing really, really good. There are multiple competitive builds and a large portion of our codex is playable. Few other armies can say the same about their codex.

Discussion about warbikes was brought up, I mentioned their price being a reason not to take them and compared them to a unit NOT taken in the SM codex which is markedly better as a reason why the Warbike isn't competitive. I then went on to point out that the meta has shifted and taking out elite 2-3 wound models is the norm now, especially now that we have confirmation on how ridiculous Eradicators are going to be. I am not complaining, I was stating a well thought out position on why Warbikes aren't worth taking at the moment.

You mentioned how warbikes have made an appearance in some tournament lists, very valid point and then mentioned that SM bikers aren't taken at all, and myself and Tneva just pointed out, why would they take a unit better than Warbikers when they have other units significantly better.

nobody is complaining in and of itself, merely using the comparison as one part of a justification for not taking a unit. Personally, I don't think Warbikes are going to be usable this edition until we receive our codex.

How do we feel about the floodgates being leaked regarding the new Necrons and SM? I feel like with Eradicators still being good value and Aggressors being significantly toned down that Green Tide lists are going to remain in a strong position. Not sure about Ork buggy spam lists though, since it looks melta has become the new plasma with the buffs they've received between the invader ATV and Eradicators packing a lot of heat.

In terms of Necrons, I think our main issue is going to be Silver Tide and the Nightbringer. Nightbringer is legit full on death for any support character we have in range, and he can actually kill Ghazzy in one round of combat given that his main attack mode ignores his 4-wound a phase ability AND invulns. Even tarpitting is not super ideal since he has the multi-attack mode. He thankfully doesn't have LoS protection, but with a 3 wound cap ability, I'm not sure we'll be able to kill him until T3 at best if your opponent uses terrain effectively.

 Grimskul wrote:
How do we feel about the floodgates being leaked regarding the new Necrons and SM? I feel like with Eradicators still being good value and Aggressors being significantly toned down that Green Tide lists are going to remain in a strong position. Not sure about Ork buggy spam lists though, since it looks melta has become the new plasma with the buffs they've received between the invader ATV and Eradicators packing a lot of heat.

In terms of Necrons, I think our main issue is going to be Silver Tide and the Nightbringer. Nightbringer is legit full on death for any support character we have in range, and he can actually kill Ghazzy in one round of combat given that his main attack mode ignores his 4-wound a phase ability AND invulns. Even tarpitting is not super ideal since he has the multi-attack mode. He thankfully doesn't have LoS protection, but with a 3 wound cap ability, I'm not sure we'll be able to kill him until T3 at best if your opponent uses terrain effectively.

With how prevalent SM's are in tournaments I think Buggy spam might suffer dramatically, not saying its dead but its going to be on life support at best. A Marine player can take 6 eradicators, combat squad it into 2 squads with 2 heavies and a multi-melta each and they can reliably kill a buggy a turn each.

The good news is that Aggressors did get hit with the nerf stick....not hard enough, but hard. And now instead of 4 of them wiping out a mob of 30 boyz pretty much by themselves it now takes 6 and they only kill 20 a turn. I think leaning heavily into an infantry skew list is going to be our go to win option until our codex drops. The real question becomes, do you want to play infantry horde or do you want to spice it up with kommandos and some stormboyz. I am having some success with min squads of kommandos to grab objectives and to do scramblers/raise. They evaporate if the enemy looks at them, but that means they aren't shooting your infantry hordes taking the central objectives.

Being able to kill a buggy per turn is not a hard thing.

I doubt that eradicators are what is going to make or break buggy lists, considering how easily they die to SJD and scrapjets.

If 3 dudes can kill a buggy per turn it means that the max amount of the, (18) can kill 6 buggies in a turn. It's quite something for a unit that costs the same points of an ork buggy and it's also more durable (8W T6 4+ vs 3x3W T5 3+).

They'll definitely be meta; at least 3-6 of them are super easy to include in any list and even the casual player could easily take them: it's just 1-2 kits and 3-6 infantry models. A lot of SM players got one or more indomitus boxes.

Buggies are a lot harder to spam: they cost a lot of money and it takes quite some time to assemble and paint them.

Of course it's too early to say that buggies are going to suffer those melta dudes, let alone that buggy based lists are dead. But we'll definitely face eradicators on a regular basis very soon and we need to deal with them somehow.

I refuse to give up vehicles/walkers based lists so I guess I'll bring more KFFs and buggies are a good candidate to start from reserves. Suicide burnas also look even better now that MSU elite oriented lists could be more common due to the upcoming melta threat.

Thing about buggies is everything that removes them quickly and easily costs more than they do anyway.
So in a sense if you can keep the weapons to kill those eradicators out of danger you'll come out on top anyway.

Just a thought but would a small to mid size squad of stormboyz work for tying down non deepstriking eradicators if you give them a boost with WAAAGH for a turn 1 charge? Also would out - contest eradicators for objectives due to weight of bodies and a dual saw nob can probably take out 1 or 2 per turn.

 Blackie wrote:
If 3 dudes can kill a buggy per turn it means that the max amount of the, (18) can kill 6 buggies in a turn.

No they can't, because they lose the ability to fire twice when they split fire. A unit of 6 will kill just as many buggies as a unit of 3. Spending 360 to kill 330 points of buggies is not something that I'd consider to be a hard counter to the buggy archetype.

Buggies are a lot harder to spam: they cost a lot of money and it takes quite some time to assemble and paint them.

A trio of gravis marines costs just as much money as a buggy.

Of course it's too early to say that buggies are going to suffer those melta dudes, let alone that buggy based lists are dead. But we'll definitely face eradicators on a regular basis very soon and we need to deal with them somehow.

I agree, but I don't think that isn't a big problem. If they start off the board, buggies can easily wall off good spots for them to come onto the board, if they start on the board you can try to avoid them or jump your SJD to line up shots. In general, rokkits are really good at blowing those guys up in my experience, and tagging them with a fast unit also is an option - unlike aggressors in the past, these guys don't come with a pair of fists.
I think they will force you to plan around them, but no more.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
If 3 dudes can kill a buggy per turn it means that the max amount of the, (18) can kill 6 buggies in a turn.

No they can't, because they lose the ability to fire twice when they split fire. A unit of 6 will kill just as many buggies as a unit of 3. Spending 360 to kill 330 points of buggies is not something that I'd consider to be a hard counter to the buggy archetype.

Eradicators can combat squad. Its not going to be three pods of six. It's going to be six pods of three.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
If 3 dudes can kill a buggy per turn it means that the max amount of the, (18) can kill 6 buggies in a turn.

No they can't, because they lose the ability to fire twice when they split fire. A unit of 6 will kill just as many buggies as a unit of 3. Spending 360 to kill 330 points of buggies is not something that I'd consider to be a hard counter to the buggy archetype.

Eradicators can combat squad. Its not going to be three pods of six. It's going to be six pods of three.

Yeah, that's my main concern as well. It really depends on which army gets the drop on who tbh, since it's unlikely we can really get away from them with strategic reserves, big base sizes and central objectives making our buggies unable to really hide from them even with the benefit of obscuring terrain.

operkoi wrote:
Just a thought but would a small to mid size squad of stormboyz work for tying down non deepstriking eradicators if you give them a boost with WAAAGH for a turn 1 charge? Also would out - contest eradicators for objectives due to weight of bodies and a dual saw nob can probably take out 1 or 2 per turn.

Really depends on how they are deployed on the board and what the game type is. I mentioned in another thread that even with the "nerf" aggressors are still really good at killing hordes. So if you don't get those stormboyz into CC turn 1 they are going to get mulched.

If you get 15 stormboyz into CC with a unit of eradicators you will get 45 attacks (not going to do nob atm) for 30 hits and 10 wounds because you are wounding on 5s, that means you likely inflict 3 wounds, so just enough to kill 1 model. On the Marine turn, if you didn't wrap him, hes going to retreat, kill your stormboyz and if he is UM he is going to blast your vehicles with 2 Eradicators at BS4 So its a toss up in return on value. Is killing 1 eradicator and making the other 2 BS4 for a turn worth the cost of losing 15 stormboyz? Personally I don't think it is. If you put a PK Nob in their, you have a chance of killing 2 so there is that.

Just to reiterate the point made, Eradicators won't be in 3 squads of 6, they will be in 6 combat squads of 3, immune to morale and much harder to kill. Best way i can think of removing them in a vehicle list would be to focus fire them with Smasha Mek gunz and hope for some good rolls, otherwise its going to be lights out for anything T7 and below.

There is no reason to assume they are ultramarines though, they are nowhere near a competitive choice anymore. For the few cases the player is an actual UM player you've already dodged a bullet in regards to power available to the marines you are facing. Most eradicators will not be able to fall back and shoot.
I also can't imagine player sinking 720 points into 18 of them - they will auto-lose the games against anything that focuses on infantry, including other marines as well as anything with the ability to sufficiently screen deep strike. And it's not like a bunch of meltas couldn't be had by other armies already for similar prices.

Personally, I think this is precisely the same kind of hysteria we have seen when GSC were revealed to have handflamer acolytes and everybody here was completely losing their minds about how they were going to be the end of any infantry ever.

Now, the Nightbringer C'Tan shard that can one-shot Thrakka... that's something I'm worried about.

yeah thats excessive anti-tank. The moment that list faces a numbers army theyre hosed.

I’m not so sure if the nightbringer is going to be a popular unit for necrons tourney lists but he is a hard counter to ghaz..

Odds are if invul/ wound cap is going to be as popular as it seems in every codex he may very well be a must take unit for necrons.

In which case without a way to pass wounds to another unit ghaz goff boy spam is going to have a hard time.

Also finally units are now getting supreme commander tag.. silent king and

I doubt the buggy list will care much about these new eradicators. They are spending 5 more points per model to kill 1 buggy anyway -- if they split fire, they probably often fail to kill either they shoot at.

They were already dying to a squad -- and frankly, it's easy to screen them out with gak like Deff Koptas if they decide to deep strike. You can keep them off of you long enough where they'll probably get 1 good volley and die.

Buggy lists can take stuff to out range them (Gun Wagon, KBBs) which can start cleaning them up.

There are probably other marine units we should concern ourselves with. Eradicators want big units like Morkanauts -- as long as we just field cheap gak (Deff Koptas, Buggies, Trukks), they will just overkill something that was gonna die anyway.

I would probably caution about fielding a Morkanaut now. I'd rather field 2 wagons for their price.

 Jidmah wrote:
There is no reason to assume they are ultramarines though, they are nowhere near a competitive choice anymore. For the few cases the player is an actual UM player you've already dodged a bullet in regards to power available to the marines you are facing. Most eradicators will not be able to fall back and shoot.
I also can't imagine player sinking 720 points into 18 of them - they will auto-lose the games against anything that focuses on infantry, including other marines as well as anything with the ability to sufficiently screen deep strike. And it's not like a bunch of meltas couldn't be had by other armies already for similar prices.

Personally, I think this is precisely the same kind of hysteria we have seen when GSC were revealed to have handflamer acolytes and everybody here was completely losing their minds about how they were going to be the end of any infantry ever.

Now, the Nightbringer C'Tan shard that can one-shot Thrakka... that's something I'm worried about.

True, Salamanders are going to be top dog in regards to eradicators, but never count out the smurfs.

As far as losing to a horde style army, well, not really. If your opponent wants to worry about infantry he can take just as many Aggressors for the same cost as those Eradicators and gets the ability to dump 216 bolter shots a turn from them. In tactical doctrine mode that is icing 72 ork boyz a turn (Not counting overkill/underkill etc) without rerolls. So, able to gut 6 buggies and 72 boyz a turn not bad. Only problem this list is going to face is going 2nd. If you can get 1st turn and use your Smasha gunz to eradicate the larger threat, you have a chance to basically win the game by turn 2 or 3 just by killing a handful of models.

I'm hoping I have to eat my words and say SM's aren't as powerful as I think they will be. But based on what I am seeing its going to be hard at hte moment to face them.

You must have missed the leaked Aggressors datasheet, they lost all their special abilities.

So the max number of aggressors now shoot 108+16d6 shots which, even in tactical doctrine, cause 57 boyz to die - 720 point to kill two units of boyz is not anything to write home about.

I'm fairly sure that bolter aggressors will no longer be a problem for us.

Yeah aggressors got slapped hard.

Guess they sold enough of them.

 Jidmah wrote:
You must have missed the leaked Aggressors datasheet, they lost all their special abilities.

So the max number of aggressors now shoot 108+16d6 shots which, even in tactical doctrine, cause 57 boyz to die - 720 point to kill two units of boyz is not anything to write home about.

I'm fairly sure that bolter aggressors will no longer be a problem for us.

Max number of aggressors is 18, 3 units of 6, likely combat squaded into 6 units of 3 regardless, they put out 6 shots each for 108 shots as you mentioned PLUS they get 18D6 shots which become automatic 6s when facing against horde units, So that becomes 216 shots. 216 = 144 hits, vs T4 = 72 wounds. If its tactical doctrine turn then no saves allowed, if its not then 60 dead Orkz. 720pts of Space Marine with the ability to kill 480-576pts of orkz a turn is still pretty ridiculous in my books. Especially when you remember they also come bog standard with powerfists so a unit of 3 puts out 13 S8 -3 D2 attacks in CC. So they are SIGNIFICANTLY more shooty than Meganobz but are almost as good in CC as those meganobz, for 2pts more per model. And T5 3W 3+ is about the same as Meganobz T4 3W 2+

So back to the example I started with, a SM list can have 12 squads of Eradicators and Aggressors bumbling about the field in units of 3 for 1440pts. They have the ability to gut 5-6 Buggies a turn and kill 60-70 boyz a turn. If facing off against a horde those eradicators are losing their primary purpose but here is the crazy math for them. 3 with no upgrades get 6 shots for 4 hits and 3.33 wounds with no save allowed, and doing D6 damage means FNP is likely useless. So even against their least optimal target the are doing between 24-32pts of dmg a turn to a horde, So by turn 4 they've earned their points back. Likewise the aggressors against a buggy list are putting out 9.5 shots a turn for about 28-30 shots a turn, 18-20 hits a turn and 6-7 wounds vs buggies a turn which do 3-4 dmg. Not much, but since buggies have 8wounds they are killing 1 buggy in 2-3 turns on average which means their 120pts cost for 3 aggressors is earned back almost entirely after 2-3 turns, and if any of those turns is Tactical it is even quicker.

18 Eradicators kill 18-24 boyz a turn and Aggressors kill 60-72 on average. Minimum average casualties is 78 to 96
18 Eradicators kill 6 buggies a turn and Aggressors kill 2-3 a turn, so 8 dead minimum and 9 dead maximum (averages)

Please keep in mind this is math hammer so it doesn't take into account a lot of other factors like -1 to hit, terrain bonuses, line of site etc etc etc. The point of this exercise is to show that orkz will be facing a veritable wall of fire when playing against Marine lists built like this, and the fact is, they are relatively TAC in their ability to annihilate any target they face. And of course, this still leaves the SM player with 560pts to take HQs and troops with. So when you get to the tournament meta, I just don't see why you wouldn't see a lot of this. And the craziest part for me, you can keep them as any chapter you want because you do not even need the bonus damage for eradicators caused by going Salamander.

And finally, this all brings me back to the tactics aspect, what is the best way to deal with these tough, shooty units? In a footslogging horde...I don't think you can. You just don't have the tools required to shut down enough of the opponents shooting to safeguard your infantry. On the flipside, the Buggy list tends to fair better simply because for target saturation you can take a host of Mek Gunz. And a Battery of 6 Smasha Gunz costs 240pts and is putting out just enough dakka to kill a 3 man squad of Eradicators or aggressors each turn. One thing to be wary about though with Mek gunz, if you max them out at 18 you are losing out on 720pts of units that are functionally useless when it comes to taking midfield and enemy objectives. And they are incredibly vulnerable to strategic reserve units coming in on the flanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I made a mistake and want to correct it real quick. Aggressors are 45pts now. The Fragstorm grenade launcher costs 5pts per model.

So 18 Aggressors becomes 810, not 720.