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C) And last point - face to the informations above, the strategy “Evil Sunz Turn 1 charge with badass units” makes more sence. Because if you park your Nauts or BW with MANz in your enemy deploy T1 you do exactly what we need - prevent enemy from scoring primaries. You can even take is obj in turn2.

Jidmah described his experience with one Naut. Naut has a thread range about 30”. BW could have easily have a range over 32”.

What happend, if you sunk more half of your points in Naut and wagon with 10 boyz and lets say 5MANz with double saw an trike and maybe the Zhad? Enemy have to kill the Naut and 5 MANz. Because if he don”t 5 MANz hits 10x 10/-4/2 or 3 and can do it twice. That means 2 landriders dead. And those guys are not slow, until they have Zhad. Their thread range asi over 18”. Dont even speak about these 10 boyz securing the objective...

Such mess means, you have a plenty of time to collect the primaries without disturb...

 Tomsug wrote:
Exactly. Weirdboy is a trap because YOU can’t take Abhorn. And YOU are the guy who have a serious lack of secondaries to pass on 10+ VP. And Goonhammer stats confirm that there is a lot of opponents have a bunch of psykers makes easy for you to score full 15VP. Abhorn is the second most scoring secondarie and third best in “how offten you pass max”. Off cours your local meta could be.... but stat is quite clear.

Interesting is, the our favourite Engage / Linebreaker and Scramblers also works fine. But the well known lack of the third one is obvious.

What is interesting for me is, that couple of Mission secondaries works also very well. I have to check them more carefuly and makes some planning.


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A) Interesting is, that if you want to deprive enemy on secondaries, you will have to compose a type of army, we have not seen yet - do it like a SM = low unit count of specific type - durable elit inf and super durable vehicles and large bunch of bikes.

So something like Nauts, Wagonz, bikers, MANz.... does it worth to build army around this?

B) Another conclusion is, that we can’ t be good at secondaries and give a lot of VP on this, so skip it and do max on primaries. Which means gain them and PREVENT enemy to gain them to balance our troubles on secondaries. Which in fact means that you need to make the enemy to hold about ONE objective per turn. Because if he holds 2 per turn in 5 obj game, he still have 45 VP. Oour goal could be to keep him on 5VP per turn. Sounds pretty easy

Oo good point. Guess I forgot that as I have yet to even face somebody I could get 10 vp out of that let alone 15.

As for B if opponent holds 2 objectives every time(assuming hold 1, hold 2, hold more) he scores 40. Turns 2, 3, 4 and 5 each 10 vp.

tneva82 wrote:
....
As for B if opponent holds 2 objectives every time(assuming hold 1, hold 2, hold more) he scores 40. Turns 2, 3, 4 and 5 each 10 vp.

Good point, good for us. The stats on Goonhammer shows, that for victory you usualy need 80+ VP. Let' s assume oponent do 45 on secondaries. Than you need to push them down to 30 on primaries, witch means, let him hold just one objective for 2 turns and the rest could be 2 obj. for him (and you have to hold at least 2 of them all the time). Which could be done.

 Blackie wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomsug wrote:
Exactly. Weirdboy is a trap because YOU can’t take Abhorn. And YOU are the guy who have a serious lack of secondaries to pass on 10+ VP. And Goonhammer stats confirm that there is a lot of opponents have a bunch of psykers makes easy for you to score full 15VP. Abhorn is the second most scoring secondarie and third best in “how offten you pass max”. Off cours your local meta could be.... but stat is quite clear.

Weirdboy outside horde style isn't particularly solid anyway.

Agree with both here. In buggy lists the casts are unreliable and neither warpath nor da jump are particularly powerful, plus you have to babysit the weirdboy so it doesn't get shot.
In goff horde lists it might be more interesting to bring one, but I still feel like deep striking is a lot harder on small boards, so I'm not sure da jump is mandatory any more. If you just him for buffs, a nob banner might be a decent stand-in if you want to keep the option for abhor the witch open.

 Tomsug wrote:

So something like Nauts, Wagonz, bikers, MANz.... does it worth to build army around this?

I don't think you'll have enough firepower if you skip scrapjets and SJD. Nauts are only worth their points if they either buy other dangerous units time or when your opponent has higher target priorities.
If you are running vehicles, I don't think there is a way around giving up 15 VP for bring it down, but leaning into nauts, MANz, wagons, wazboms and maybe nob bikers mit mitigate the issue we have with grind them down.
Warbikers aren't great right now though, they lack the punch to clear objectives of objective secured troops and the durability to defend an objective they are on. The only thing I found them useful for was blocking deep strikes into my backfield because the footprint with their new bases is gigantic.

 Tomsug wrote:
C) And last point - face to the informations above, the strategy “Evil Sunz Turn 1 charge with badass units” makes more sence. Because if you park your Nauts or BW with MANz in your enemy deploy T1 you do exactly what we need - prevent enemy from scoring primaries. You can even take is obj in turn2.

Jidmah described his experience with one Naut. Naut has a thread range about 30”. BW could have easily have a range over 32”.

What happend, if you sunk more half of your points in Naut and wagon with 10 boyz and lets say 5MANz with double saw an trike and maybe the Zhad? Enemy have to kill the Naut and 5 MANz. Because if he don”t 5 MANz hits 10x 10/-4/2 or 3 and can do it twice. That means 2 landriders dead. And those guys are not slow, until they have Zhad. Their thread range asi over 18”. Dont even speak about these 10 boyz securing the objective...

Such mess means, you have a plenty of time to collect the primaries without disturb...

Already there, but not with Naut'. Bonebreaka (Manz + KFF Mek embarked) + Wazbom (for Alpha Strike protection and escorting them across the board) Deffkilla + Nobz Bikes for that T1 charge. About 700 points of distraction Carnifex and Linebreaker/Engage enablers.

Also increasingly cold on Buggy spam for the reasons stated. Deep striking Tankbustas is a new favourite there as their unit size can take the odd objective. (I even go Blood Axe in the local Crusade and 2x Dead Sneaky with them )

 Tomsug wrote:
Exactly. Weirdboy is a trap because YOU can’t take Abhorn. And YOU are the guy who have a serious lack of secondaries to pass on 10+ VP. And Goonhammer stats confirm that there is a lot of opponents have a bunch of psykers makes easy for you to score full 15VP. Abhorn is the second most scoring secondarie and third best in “how offten you pass max”. Off cours your local meta could be.... but stat is quite clear.

It’s mostly for hoard style with da jump and warpath being kinda important. I’m not worried about buggy lists as I honestly don’t think it’s going to do as well with the latest weapon changes until we get our codex.

But honestly I haven’t seen many lists using 3+ psykers outside of demons or greyknights neither of which are popular this edition.
Necrons, tau, admech, guard, orks, sisters, even space marines are all 0-1 psykers
Dark eldar, eldar, chaos marines, usually 1-2

If I do see 3+ psykers it’s in a chaos soup list with lord of change and/or morty neither of which is an easy kill.
I just don’t see abhor the witch as easy points outside greyknights or demons...

I have been considering combining a Weirdboy with Killa Kans with buzzsaws. 5 kans (because 6 is a blast magnet) with buzzsaws, warpath and visions in da smoke put out a lot of attacks, with rerolls to hit, at decent S, AP and Damage. I expect you can get one good charge out of them before the enemy focus them down.

Gungo,

1. Opinion is nice, but the stats I linked are stats from about 400-500 games with about 300 playiers, which sounds more like a general prediction. Local meta can distort it of course...

2. If you have 2 psycher characters, you have 10 VP, which is already a solid option. And you don 't need 3+ psychers, 3 gives you 15VP already.

3. You are definitely right, that for the hord list, weirdboy has a sence. But in such case, let' s take 2 of them and let one of them doing Rituals for 15 VP. With hord list, you could have a solid chance to control the center of the board and keep him safe for first 3 turns...

It's funny people are bearish on the buggy list and bullish on the horde list.

I think I'm the opposite. Honestly, I think Necrons will *wreck* horde style lists badly with their new codex.

They can do stuff like:

1) Turn off Obsec for enemy units
2) have an entire army with Obsec
3) Falback and shoot
4) So, so, so, so many shots.
5) C'Tan beats Ghaz. And most horde style lsits don't have much shooting or burna bombers.
6) Their 1 wound models really take so much to put down

If Necrons become remotely more popular, I would be less than surprised to see them smash up hordes. We'll see what the stats are.

Space Marines also got some nerfs to key units like aggressors, but are probably a stronger codex overall as well.

These melta changes suck, but to be honest, unless someone takes 18 eradicators, I doubt we care that you can get more damage. a buggy was dead from a unit of eradicators anyway.

And someone going all in on eradicators means they probably lose to a gaunt carpet or boy tide.

To be honest, i am quite excited about both the Marine and the Necron Codex.
Some broken stuff was nerfed, the better chapter tactics (like Salamanders - bye Death Skulls rerolls...) got toned down and overall they look well balanced and well written.
If they manage to keep the newer books on that level we have a cool edition ahead of us.
Of course thats just my impression and people will find the best stuff sooner or later, but reviews so far look like there is a lot stuff worth taking and few things totally worthless or broken.


Also about that article concerning secondaries: It was a good read but i guess not really big news. That orks give away a lot of secondaries is no secret.
So if you want to tailor a list to minimise the opponents possible victory points you need to:

a) Take just so many psykers / vehicles / models / characters that no secondary gives away more than 5-10
b) Have enough fast units / mass to score good on primaries and deny enemy primaries
c) Be able to block deepstriking stuff and enemy movement to make stuff like raise & engage harder
d) If possible have the right tools to be flexible with secondaries so you can go for killing stuff or for battlefield objectives

So mixed lists will fullfill all of that, but you basicly give every weapon a good target and are much more probable to get tabled if you don`t go for horde or buggies.
But as soon as you take a few squad of boys and 10+ wounds vehicles thin their ranks becomes quite easy against us.
So unless you just go for some buggies thats bad news.

I´d love to try something like 2 Characters, 3x Bikes + 3 x Meganobs + some odd stuff, but i definitly lack the models for that.
At least you won`t give up more than 6 VP per secondary, but that does not matter if you get tabled turn 3-4 and the opponent just does some endgame scoring.
I guess the sweet spot might be to give away 10 VP per secondary max and give away 30-35 points on primaries tops so the opponent ends up with 60-65.
Getting 70+ VP doable for orks.

On the other hand i am not sure if orks should even bother with minimising potential secondaries at all.
Our most powerfull builds will give up at least 1 maxed out secondary or even 20-25 for two but are also quite capable of scoring as well.
As soon as we minimise certain stuff our own scoring becomes worse.
Also the game feels kinda binary right now. It`s ether win high, or loose high. Most games i had were 20 - 40 VP difference or even more while the tight games are really rare.
But thats just my meta where we play competetive but i have not played a 9th tournament so far.
I guess if you aim for top 4 scores become more tight.

So, I disappear for like 6 months, and suddenly we got a new edition and the entire Ork tier list looks like it got flipped on its head. Neat.

 flandarz wrote:
So, I disappear for like 6 months, and suddenly we got a new edition and the entire Ork tier list looks like it got flipped on its head. Neat.

Welcome back! It's a brand new Ork world, the edition is alot more about central board control and denying while trying to maximize secondaries, so having staying power matters a lot more than just killiness. What you'll notice most is that grots as units are effectively dead, as is the formerly ubiquitous SAG. The most common top Ork lists atm are Green Tide with Ghazzy support, and Deffskullz Buggy spam.

Yeah, I was surprised that Ghazzy went from "Worse than a Boss in every way" to actually viable! And I love me some Buggies, so I'm stoked!

 Tomsug wrote:
Gungo,

1. Opinion is nice, but the stats I linked are stats from about 400-500 games with about 300 playiers, which sounds more like a general prediction. Local meta can distort it of course...

2. If you have 2 psycher characters, you have 10 VP, which is already a solid option. And you don 't need 3+ psychers, 3 gives you 15VP already.

3. You are definitely right, that for the hord list, weirdboy has a sence. But in such case, let' s take 2 of them and let one of them doing Rituals for 15 VP. With hord list, you could have a solid chance to control the center of the board and keep him safe for first 3 turns...

Look at your data set... while abhor the witch Was equal in points (9.5 average) to bring it down it only appeared in 14% of all games and 7% of players used it...
like I said it’s not that common.
In comparison bring it down appeared in 71% of the games and used by 36% of the players in the dataset..
But you are correct the average of 9.5 assumes it’s useful vs lists with at least 2 psykers that are killable (not something like a lord of change or Morty)

Gungo, good point. Orks are pretty rare army with pretty unique setup, so we are looking the the table, showing average betveen SM and their chaos counterpart. We need such sheet for Orks specificaly.


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But I checked the mission secondaries on the top of the table and they are relevant for us.

Priority targets - defend and take priority targets. They will obviously be in your deploy. No problem to hold,your own for 3VP per turn, or 5VP if you hold the opponents. That is almost boring.

Direct assault - 3VP for holding the midfield objective or opponents deploy obj. and 5 VP for both. That ' s pretty fun, I playied it already. The mission has 5 objectives so having in mind the theory about winning via max your primaries and min your opponent primaries, you have to control midfield anyway.

Strategic scan - 3/6/10/15 for performed action over opponents turn on 1/2/3/4+ objectives in mission with 5 objectives and all of them in the center of the field, no one in deploy. Can be performed by any unit and can be performed by mutliple units on multiple objectives in the same time. They “just” need to have no opponent in objective range. That also could be done. If yuo have bunch of small cheap units like kommandos and 10 boyz, they can perform it pretty fast without lowering your dakka.


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Ha! I' ve found the right HQ for the Grot mob detachement with SMG' s = the winner is .... tradá ... Kaptin Badrukk! For just 90p you have 4w 5++ model with fine shooting that ignores the troubles with CLAN only transport.

You can even waste 2CP and give him 36” range - If you have nothing alse to burn them on.....

Hello you degenerates and warmongers.

I have a question about Ghazzy. So today i had my first and longest battle of 1700 points in which i used Ghazzy.

As it stands right now im using Goff culture and thats the color scheme ive gone for.

My question is this: In a competitive, or at least semi competitive list, how is the best way to use Ghaz? what Culture are we talking about?

Because Deathskulls are seemingly better than Goff, yet you get your full money worth of Ghaz if you use him in a Goff group.

So how should you manage that, to benefit the best from a strong rooster in which Ghaz is present? Should you just say EFF' it and use him in a Deathskulls group or should you make a mini patrol group with Ghazzy in it and just throw some boyz in it?

It was my first 9th edition battle btw. and i won! against the hordes of Mortarion, and the Deathguard. Ghazzy krumped Mortarion with the help of his trusty Mega nobz. Im so happy for that victory.

Beardedragon wrote:
Hello you degenerates and warmongers.

I have a question about Ghazzy. So today i had my first and longest battle of 1700 points in which i used Ghazzy.

As it stands right now im using Goff culture and thats the color scheme ive gone for.

My question is this: In a competitive, or at least semi competitive list, how is the best way to use Ghaz? what Culture are we talking about?

Because Deathskulls are seemingly better than Goff, yet you get your full money worth of Ghaz if you use him in a Goff group.

So how should you manage that, to benefit the best from a strong rooster in which Ghaz is present? Should you just say EFF' it and use him in a Deathskulls group or should you make a mini patrol group with Ghazzy in it and just throw some boyz in it?

It was my first 9th edition battle btw. and i won! against the hordes of Mortarion, and the Deathguard. Ghazzy krumped Mortarion with the help of his trusty Mega nobz. Im so happy for that victory.

Congrats on the win!

I would say that the reason why Ghazzy sees play atm is partly because he synergizes very well with a Goff Horde Skarboyz list. S5 with his buffs to attacks and reroll one's means that it gives them enough oomph in CC to seriously do enough damage when combined with the Goff Klan trait. The horde style list is also more about area denial for primaries and limiting secondaries for your opponent. Ghazzy fills in that gap of handling dangerous multi-wound models that even Skarboyz can struggle with. So that's why he's basically relegated to Goff lists for now, since other klans really don't get as much out of him since they miss out on the rerolls.

To be fair too, the Ghaz tide list also works because of the popularity of very elite armies like Custodes, Ad mech, Space Marines, and so on.

That list will fair better if your opponent is gearing to kill Space Marines, not horde.

tulun wrote:
To be fair too, the Ghaz tide list also works because of the popularity of very elite armies like Custodes, Ad mech, Space Marines, and so on.

That list will fair better if your opponent is gearing to kill Space Marines, not horde.

Very true, though I would say that there are few hordes that can go head to head with Orks, with mainly Slaanesh daemons having the speed and abilities to get the drop on us.

If it wasn't for the prohibitive dollar costs a GSC horde list would be fairly interesting. A guard infantry horde would also give us a fight, even after they lost the vigilus detachments (A vigilus catachan detachment may actually win in most scenarios.)

cody.d. wrote:
If it wasn't for the prohibitive dollar costs a GSC horde list would be fairly interesting. A guard infantry horde would also give us a fight, even after they lost the vigilus detachments (A vigilus catachan detachment may actually win in most scenarios.)

Yeah, it depends on your local meta to some extent. Just like with GSC, you don't really see infantry guard ranking in the top lists because SM lists absolutely shred them to bits in both CC and shooting. Orks manage to get by just because we have KFF and FNP coverage and Green Tide to let us recycle units. With the recent change to Imperial weapons, I think we might be seeing more guard players trying out chimera flamer lists.

That could change with the multiple nerfs to aggressors perhaps? And the nerfs to Deathwatch. Both of which i'd consider damn near hard counters to hordes.

Has anyone given thought to using a chinork to flying Eadbutt? It’s a cheaper option to burna bomber and and has same special keywords on the bottom of profile. Unless I’m missing something use the scouting ahead and for 90 points it does D6 mortals on explosion for six inch radius.

cody.d. wrote:
That could change with the multiple nerfs to aggressors perhaps? And the nerfs to Deathwatch. Both of which i'd consider damn near hard counters to hordes.

The nerf to aggressors will definitely curb a lot of their burst potential in wiping out hordes, but I feel like it's really the one-two punch of doctrines + bolter discipline combined with assault that lets marines handle hordes fairly well. That's why the 5++ save for Daemons and Orks is huge because we can actually mitigate some of that damage, whereas guys like Nids and Guard have to take the hit with usually no saves, outside of stuff like Catalyst for Nids (and that's only one unit). Ghazzy acts as a charge deterrent, especially since he gets more attacks as he gets wounded.


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Bclion wrote:
Has anyone given thought to using a chinork to flying Eadbutt? It’s a cheaper option to burna bomber and and has same special keywords on the bottom of profile. Unless I’m missing something use the scouting ahead and for 90 points it does D6 mortals on explosion for six inch radius.

The problem is that you'll be out of explosion radius for all enemy units when you do it, since you have to be outside of 9" when you do scouting ahead. Not to mention that we don't even know if the warkopta will still be in the new FW index.

Well if it’s allowed you don’t have to use the scouting ahead rule. Could just start game on board and turbo boost up and Eadbutt a nice target.

Bclion wrote:
Well if it’s allowed you don’t have to use the scouting ahead rule. Could just start game on board and turbo boost up and Eadbutt a nice target.

The practical reason why is that most people don't have warkopta models, but even in the case that you did, I think a big reason why it's not a practical use of points is because warkoptas do a lot more damage acting as a transport given that their rattler kannons do a significant amount of damage for their points. Furthermore, D6 mortal wounds, while better than the usual D3, has too much variance to spend 85+ points on just to maybe do some mortal wounds on frontline units. Burna bommers are a lot more popular for flying eadbutt precisely because you have a flat 3 mortal wounds for when they explode, meaning you don't lose out on your CP and points investment by rolling a bunch of 1's for mortals. Furthermore, unlike the Warkopta, Burna Bommers can do a decent amount of damage with the bombs they drop before they die, meaning you get to double dip on a unit with mortals, and the fact that Burna Bommers can effectively go everywhere on the table, while the warkoptas have a hard limit on their speed, means its easier for your opponent to deploy to deny your warkopta than they would a Burna Bommer.

Yeah, the burna bomma is such a wonderful target for the flyin' Eadbutt strat because of how consistent it is. Sure some other vehicles may roll big for their explosion and do 6 mortal wounds to a unit, kill a crucial character. But it could also do 1 or have an abysmal radius. The consistency of the Burna bomma's explosion is what makes it so enticing.

Even outside of the many other benefits Grimskul mentioned being able to put a known amount of mortal wounds where you want them is worth the price of admission. Though with auras being changed armies may be more spread out this edition, lowering the value slightly. Still, you'll always make tau castles weep salty tears. (I adore it for setting up easy procs of the freebootaz trait. One of my regular opponents loves his thunderfires, which may change after they too get nerfed hard.)

God. Just watching a bat rep with new necrons.

Good god that army might hard counter us.

tulun wrote:
God. Just watching a bat rep with new necrons.

Good god that army might hard counter us.

Was it a silver tide list? I feel like the Obsec trait combined with that will really give us trouble contesting the middle.

 Grimskul wrote:

tulun wrote:
God. Just watching a bat rep with new necrons.

Good god that army might hard counter us.

Was it a silver tide list? I feel like the Obsec trait combined with that will really give us trouble contesting the middle.

No, but he did make something like 34/37 res rolls on the warriors he had.

Didn’t lose a single unit from the various res abilities.

It’ll be interesting to see that stats.