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You must not have seen a single 9th edition book's points section...

I guess you are in for a surprise.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
The Big Shoota could go and be Orky the other GW approved away. 1d6 shots, AP d3, Dd3 with all other stats staying the same. Sometimes you get 6 shots, AP -3, D3 other times 1 shots, AP -1, D1. It's fun because it's random.

*Note that this is pure sarcasm and not an actual idea anybody should embrace.*

Big shootas/dakkaguns simply need to be AP-1. Makes also sense, since they are S5 and quite big.

Maybe with a stratagem to make them AP-2 and D2, like the Sisters' blessed bolts. That could be fun on a Gunwagon or a 5 man squad of Kanz. Alternatively AP-2 or +1 to hit or damage if they fire within half range could be nice as well.

Kanz can't use stratagems, but I could see it becoming a new kustom job.

Some more stratagems dedicated to gretchin in general would be nice.

I don't agree with the ever ongoing "stuff needs to be more killy/durable" debate. The Deffkopta commentary sums it up quite well in comparison. There you want a cheap and movable tool to shut down enemy unit x for a turn. Whatever it does in combat is irrelevant. Warbikes are in that region too as they have a larger footprint despite less cost efficient durability. If they started to shoot abit harder they´d be competing with buggies for a role that´s already filled out well imo.

 Scactha wrote:
I don't agree with the ever ongoing "stuff needs to be more killy/durable" debate. The Deffkopta commentary sums it up quite well in comparison. There you want a cheap and movable tool to shut down enemy unit x for a turn. Whatever it does in combat is irrelevant. Warbikes are in that region too as they have a larger footprint despite less cost efficient durability. If they started to shoot abit harder they´d be competing with buggies for a role that´s already filled out well imo.

Then it might aswell have no guns or melee? If the sole reason for it to be viable is to only score secondaries and tie up units until it premature destruction then its a bad unit design. Warbikers had this issue before the new buggies even came out and nobody was taking them then or praising whatever merits they have.

"Wot's faster than a Warbuggy, more killy than a Warbike, and flies through da air like a bird? I got no bleedin' idea, but I'm gonna find out." Do you think the Mek wants his contraption to literally do no damage? A lot of our units are stuck a couple of editions behind in terms of what they were designed to do. Warbikers and Deffkoptas were from an age where bikes ruled king, but they have kept their statline and wargear from that edition which doesnt merry up with 8th and 9th and with loosing options and taking their rules into a strat that only affects 1 unit a turn, they just arent good. Units should have more in them than just doing and objective and taking up boardspace. You know what else takes up the board, shoots and fights well? Outriders. Skyweavers. How come these bikes can do multiple things and we have to settle for yeah we just like blocking a bit of board for a turn.

Its pretty short sighted to just go yeah they are fine with what they can do now instead of improving them because as it stands they arent that great at it, they are just the only option in that field. An Attack Bike is leagues ahead of Deffkopta and it is only 45pts...... The same goes for Kommandos, I remember the days a 15man squad would arrive from outflank and take the backfield, killing artillery, heavy weapon squads and just causing mayhem, now we just take them as 5 man squads, no Nob, just to do scanners/scramblers, linebreaker, and nab objectives. Thats cool and all but Kommandos should be wrecking havoc, being terror troops, not what they currently are now.

This is the problem with Orks in general, a lot of the units just dont do what they are intended for and are instead delegated to roles because they are cheap (but not really that cheap compared to other factions). If GW (and thats a big if) gave us as much love as the SM codex, id be happy, hell id settle for Necron tier. I watched an all buggy list on Art of War last night and it was so painful to watch. Scrapjets that barely kill guardsmen and fail to kill tanks, cool, then they just get blasted off the board.

We shouldnt settle for the rules that we have right now and it fine to want better for our units outside of pts drops.

Big shootas should just have a rule which states "Big shootas work by spraying an enormous amount of bullets at the enemy. This wall of bullets inevitably hits something."
2 profiles:
36" range D3 shots S5 AP0 D1 auto-hits.
18" range D3 shots S5 AP-1 D2 auto-hits.

less rolling (D3 hits, then rolls to wound and saves). Decent output. Like a long-ranged burna-skorcha. Make it a Heavy weapon so you can't advance and then shoot, auto-hitting negates all the other effects of heavy.

Let' s play hammer and stop writing to santa.

After couple of games I have some summaries from playing my list (6x smg, 3x MSJ, 2xSJD, wazboom, bommer, bw with 10 boyz + character, trukk/bigtrakk with 10 boyz + character, 3x5 kommandos and 10 gretchkins.)

1. I skipped wartrike and nothing happens. Just more points for something else and more space in deploy. Maybe in another list, where advance and charge is more important. But I don' t want to go to enemy deploy. I want to hold objectives and be hidden.

2. Main purpose of 2 Jets is to die and soak enemy fire with -1 to hit and 5++. Sometimes they do something, but if you go second and enemy is clever enough, they die. Take 4 could be more interesting.

3. Scrapjets are workhorse with nice amount of dakka and opponent see it and want to kill it. And scrapjets are thin like a paper. Well heavy paper, but still paper. Crucial seems to be keep scrapjets alive. This means mostly very deep deploy far far away. So it takes 3 turns to drive to close combat or a 1 turn even to range. And 3 turns is hard to survive. So now I really prefer slightly more squig tyres againts corkscrew.

4. Smashaguns - big topic. 48” is definitely important and I use it every time despite very dense terrain. On other hand, about 2-3 of them in every turn can' t shoot at anything or make some junk shooting to the bunch of conscripts or whatever. On other other hand, 6 smashagunz is perfect point per wound screener. 5-6 smashagunz screen your deploy for cheap, holds a lot and shoot long range that force enemy to move just somewehre. But suffer to lack of targets. This means, not all of them are effective. This means, sometimes kills literally nothing. Their 3” move drives me crazy in my super mobile list more and more. So dilema....

 Tomsug wrote:
Let' s play hammer and stop writing to santa.

After couple of games I have some summaries from playing my list (6x smg, 3x MSJ, 2xSJD, wazboom, bommer, bw with 10 boyz + character, trukk/bigtrakk with 10 boyz + character, 3x5 kommandos and 10 gretchkins.)

1. I skipped wartrike and nothing happens. Just more points for something else and more space in deploy. Maybe in another list, where advance and charge is more important. But I don' t want to go to enemy deploy. I want to hold objectives and be hidden.

2. Main purpose of 2 Jets is to die and soak enemy fire with -1 to hit and 5++. Sometimes they do something, but if you go second and enemy is clever enough, they die. Take 4 could be more interesting.

3. Scrapjets are workhorse with nice amount of dakka and opponent see it and want to kill it. And scrapjets are thin like a paper. Well heavy paper, but still paper. Crucial seems to be keep scrapjets alive. This means mostly very deep deploy far far away. So it takes 3 turns to drive to close combat or a 1 turn even to range. And 3 turns is hard to survive. So now I really prefer slightly more squig tyres againts corkscrew.

4. Smashaguns - big topic. 48” is definitely important and I use it every time despite very dense terrain. On other hand, about 2-3 of them in every turn can' t shoot at anything or make some junk shooting to the bunch of conscripts or whatever. On other other hand, 6 smashagunz is perfect point per wound screener. 5-6 smashagunz screen your deploy for cheap, holds a lot and shoot long range that force enemy to move just somewehre. But suffer to lack of targets. This means, not all of them are effective. This means, sometimes kills literally nothing. Their 3” move drives me crazy in my super mobile list more and more. So dilema....

Some of us cant play games due to ongoing lockdowns or even attend little tournaments but ive spent most of the lockdown watching batreps, browsing forums and reading articles to get a good understanding of what the edition is like and how Orks are in the grand scheme of things. ive probably watched more batreps than games played during the whole of 8th tabletop titans (my favourite), table top tactics, art of war (my least favourite), hellstorm wargaming, etc around 8-10 batreps a week, so I think we should be allowed to talk and theorise what we could get for our Codex, who knows it might be us this January as the first xenos Codex!

As to your points:

1.) As long as the Warboss on Warbike exists the Deffkilla is obslete. Cheaper, better, more options and relics to boot, smaller profile, and access to Da Biggest Boss.... The Deffkilla youd only take if you dont have a Warboss on Warbike....

2.) You cant have 4 Wazbom Blastajets? Unless your wanting to take 2 Burna-bommers with them which is quite a lot of pts invested in the sky. I actually value the Wazbom as a good source of Dakka with it being essentially 3 Mek Gunz (albeit 2 of the guns are BS5) with insane movement that you cant really hide from unless your buried deep with a ruin with 4 walls. It also gives way less bring it down points than 3 Mek Gunz and can reliably help score max Engage on all Fronts. This is paired with a nice bonus of being a KFF mounted vehicle with a large base to provide the Boyz with some 5++ for a turn or 2. I think its kind of criminal to assign the Wazboms to death, youd be better off with the Burna-boomers for that and atleast you can get the most value out of Flying 'Eadbutt.

3.) Scrapjets are cool and all but they arent that durable, if your going to deploy them as far back as possible wouldnt it be better off to put them in strategic reserves/tellyporta? If your waiting til turn 3 at best to charge your better off keeping them permanently safe and risk a 9" charge and also atleast you can bypass some LoS blocking terrain. Just ensure you deal with the screens before hand so you arent zoned out. Its probably better that way instead of spending 2-3 turns either advancing and shooting at -1 (unless your Evil Sunz ) and/or getting blown to zoggin' hell.

4.) Again, you can strategic reserves the lil gits. Saves them from being blasted and bleeding Bring it Down right out of the gates and you can forgo that 3" move and get some clear angles of fire, being put up to 6" from the board edge is pretty much double your movement anyway hahaha. Also atleast they can move and fire now without a heavy penalty, so be greatful for that. And again, the Wazbom kind of performs the firepower of 3 Mek Gunz anyway, they just dont hold the back field aswell (though in my experience and seeing the new D2 Heavy Bolters, they dont hold the back for long as it is ).

You could just have 3 wazbomms and a burnabommer to suicide T1.

 Jidmah wrote:
You could just have 3 wazbomms and a burnabommer to suicide T1.

i don’t think our planes transitioned well into 9th edition... I think they transitioned very badly in fact. Negs to hit not adding up, and the need to hold objectives (we don’t have the most durable units in the game, to say the least) from 1st to last turn means our paper thin planes are not great

Not to mention the wazbom feels way overpriced now. Its almost 200pts for tissuepaper.

i used to run a wazbom every game, since 9th i havnt been able to justify using it once.

I'm soon to play my first game of 9th, and i looked hard at my favs Dakkajet, and Burnabommer, but the smaller board really scares me , Id hate to die just because i cant stay on the board.

The Idea was 2x wazboom and 2x bommer. Average enemy has anti tank firepower to take down 2 jets, no more. And due the Eadbutt, he kills first the bommer that are cheaper and than you have 1 turn with your “6 smashaguns” in his deploy to make a mess and Engage all fronts. That is fine. Plus you gain 2 turns of “safety” for the rest of your army. For example - Scrapjets.

But the price for this setting is huge. Something like 670p? That is a massive part of your army. But well, on other hand, it' s 670p that silence the enemy fire and die, or annihilate him. Show me the army that survive 2 burnas Eadbutts and 2 turns of 2 wazboom fire and still be effective.

Scrapjets in DS are safe, but useless. I need their rockets and shootas to kill. I keep them back to shoot to his frontline units first. A lot of 24” anti tank in the field is common, so do not rush forward and be out of range of part of his army works fine for me. Time to charge comes later, when the field is cleared.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don' t speak about the covid... it make's me-..... sad. I play with one of my mates in his studio with the right table. So I 've played againts IG last 7 games or something like it... better than nothing but, you know....

better than literally only facing harlies...

I have 2 roommates that play and i can never get one of them to play lately because even though it happened 4 months ago he's still pissed at himself for having a rage fit and breaking a squad of Pterraxii beyond repair.
Other plays Harlies and Tau....fun...

 Vineheart01 wrote:
better than literally only facing harlies...

I have 2 roommates that play and i can never get one of them to play lately because even though it happened 4 months ago he's still pissed at himself for having a rage fit and breaking a squad of Pterraxii beyond repair.
Other plays Harlies and Tau....fun...

I know that feel. I'm basically stuck hosting games at my place since my area is currently a red zone for COVID atm. I have a Sisters player and a Harlequin/Aeldari player and that's it. At best if I'm lucky I can play tabletop simulator to get a few more games in with friends who have moved but it's a pretty stale 40k environment for me right now. I'm getting a lot painted in the interim though.

Know what you mean. I´ve been part of a club for 30+ years with at least 20+ 40k players making it very easy to find a game. Until 2020. Sad times

Trying to make Mek Gunz work with Hordes and Vehicles as well.
What I am doing for a few games now is to deepstrike a unit of 6 turn 2.
That way i don't have to worry about that poor movement and can bring the firepower where i need it to be.
Also they don't get blown apart before they can do anything or get tied up in CC forever, which is quite hard to prevent as you can just use desperate breakout once.

So far i have to say I'm surprised how well this works.
Also with this I can actually deploy well hidden and don't care too much about the first turn.
Have to say Squigtire Scrapjets look more and more attractive to me. Dragstas can jump out of hiding with no problems but to get 3 Scrapjets good cover turn 1 and still have something to shoot at after moving is quite hard with 10".
I even considered making them Evil Sunz to improve this even further.

First turn can still be pretty devastating, and I try to build lists more so I can a) live with going second and b) minimise secondaries.
With the smashas tellyporting and the 6 buggies hiding and taking out the most important anti tank of my opponent has actually worked in parts and I had games where Bring it Down was not maxed out against me.

I tried pairing that with 3 x 30 boys to distract the opponent and flip objectives, as well as doing the same with 100+ gretchin for scoring / screening, but that worked just in parts.
After all mixing both kind of targets is very suboptimal, but i kinda want it to work.

Played Green Tide a lot the last months and won every game, but its boring as hell. :(


What would you combine with 3 Dragstas, 3 Scrapjets and 6 Smasha Gunz?
If I had the models i'd try tellyporting 6 KBB, that might be neat to add some screening / infantry cleaning power.
They are kinda ok against Primaris as well.

Tried tellyporting Morkas/ Gorkas, which is fun for sure but quite a point investment.
Jumping Meganobs are cool and I love playing them, but every failed charge is a death sentence.

You could teleport in a battle wagon with deffrolla. This is also a way to use nobz as they can get out when it explodes and gain +1 to their armor through the strat.

Going back to the discussion of ork flyers, I agree that they did not transition well. I do think that taking a burnabomber so you can go and crash it somewhere still works but don’t look for your flyers to survive long.

 Grotrebel wrote:
Trying to make Mek Gunz work with Hordes and Vehicles as well.
What I am doing for a few games now is to deepstrike a unit of 6 turn 2.
That way i don't have to worry about that poor movement and can bring the firepower where i need it to be.
Also they don't get blown apart before they can do anything or get tied up in CC forever, which is quite hard to prevent as you can just use desperate breakout once.

So far i have to say I'm surprised how well this works.
Also with this I can actually deploy well hidden and don't care too much about the first turn.
Have to say Squigtire Scrapjets look more and more attractive to me. Dragstas can jump out of hiding with no problems but to get 3 Scrapjets good cover turn 1 and still have something to shoot at after moving is quite hard with 10".
I even considered making them Evil Sunz to improve this even further.

First turn can still be pretty devastating, and I try to build lists more so I can a) live with going second and b) minimise secondaries.
With the smashas tellyporting and the 6 buggies hiding and taking out the most important anti tank of my opponent has actually worked in parts and I had games where Bring it Down was not maxed out against me.

I tried pairing that with 3 x 30 boys to distract the opponent and flip objectives, as well as doing the same with 100+ gretchin for scoring / screening, but that worked just in parts.
After all mixing both kind of targets is very suboptimal, but i kinda want it to work.

Played Green Tide a lot the last months and won every game, but its boring as hell. :(


What would you combine with 3 Dragstas, 3 Scrapjets and 6 Smasha Gunz?
If I had the models i'd try tellyporting 6 KBB, that might be neat to add some screening / infantry cleaning power.
They are kinda ok against Primaris as well.

Tried tellyporting Morkas/ Gorkas, which is fun for sure but quite a point investment.
Jumping Meganobs are cool and I love playing them, but every failed charge is a death sentence.

Well Mek Gunz work well in a vehicle list mainly because you're already likely giving potential max points for Bring it Down anyways, so it's not like you're giving away free points like you would be in a Horde style list. I'm surprised you can deep strike 6 of them, because in most of my games, by T2 most of the board is already spread out on multiple fronts and having that big a footprint would be difficult to get LoS for all of them since they all need to be within 6" of each other when they deploy.

It seems like you're having trouble figuring out what to do with troops. With Mek Gunz and the vehicle route, you're more or less stuck with trukk boyz. Gretchin are not worth the trouble and die to a breeze.

I've been reading a lot about Ork flyers not being worth it so far. Definitely some truth there given that I haven't seen any lists in tournies using them. Is the Wazbom Blastajet worth it in a vehicle heavy list given that it gives us a more mobile KFF? The Morkanaut is too slow IMO to keep up with a buggy list and the Wazbom has a big base to ensure at least 3 buggies are in range. Or is it just too expensive/fragile for that role?

 Blackie wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
The Big Shoota could go and be Orky the other GW approved away. 1d6 shots, AP d3, Dd3 with all other stats staying the same. Sometimes you get 6 shots, AP -3, D3 other times 1 shots, AP -1, D1. It's fun because it's random.

*Note that this is pure sarcasm and not an actual idea anybody should embrace.*

Big shootas/dakkaguns simply need to be AP-1. Makes also sense, since they are S5 and quite big.

Maybe with a stratagem to make them AP-2 and D2, like the Sisters' blessed bolts. That could be fun on a Gunwagon or a 5 man squad of Kanz. Alternatively AP-2 or +1 to hit or damage if they fire within half range could be nice as well.

The Heavy Bolter is the Imperial equivalent of the Big Shoota. 3 shots, -1AP 2dmg. 10pts. 3 shots, 2 hits, against T4 3+ thats 1.33 wounds and 0.67 unsaved wounds which average 1.33dmg a turn.

For the same price we can currently take 2 big shootas, basically 7 shots (DDD) 2.33 hits, 1.55 wounds and .52dmg a turn.

if they gained -1 AP the numbers chance to .77dmg a turn, or a bit more than 1/2 what the Heavy Bolter does. So the question becomes, do you add more shots or do you give it 2dmg on top of getting -1AP. Otherwise yet again, the ork equivalent weapon is significantly worse. And from an ork perspective I think the correct answer is, give it more shots.

I know people some people don't like it, but I want more dice for my orkz, I can not stand that the official GW sanctioned DAKKA faction has less shots than the damn elite space marines, doesn't make any sense.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
The Big Shoota could go and be Orky the other GW approved away. 1d6 shots, AP d3, Dd3 with all other stats staying the same. Sometimes you get 6 shots, AP -3, D3 other times 1 shots, AP -1, D1. It's fun because it's random.

*Note that this is pure sarcasm and not an actual idea anybody should embrace.*

Big shootas/dakkaguns simply need to be AP-1. Makes also sense, since they are S5 and quite big.

Maybe with a stratagem to make them AP-2 and D2, like the Sisters' blessed bolts. That could be fun on a Gunwagon or a 5 man squad of Kanz. Alternatively AP-2 or +1 to hit or damage if they fire within half range could be nice as well.

The Heavy Bolter is the Imperial equivalent of the Big Shoota. 3 shots, -1AP 2dmg. 10pts. 3 shots, 2 hits, against T4 3+ thats 1.33 wounds and 0.67 unsaved wounds which average 1.33dmg a turn.

For the same price we can currently take 2 big shootas, basically 7 shots (DDD) 2.33 hits, 1.55 wounds and .52dmg a turn.

if they gained -1 AP the numbers chance to .77dmg a turn, or a bit more than 1/2 what the Heavy Bolter does. So the question becomes, do you add more shots or do you give it 2dmg on top of getting -1AP. Otherwise yet again, the ork equivalent weapon is significantly worse. And from an ork perspective I think the correct answer is, give it more shots.

I know people some people don't like it, but I want more dice for my orkz, I can not stand that the official GW sanctioned DAKKA faction has less shots than the damn elite space marines, doesn't make any sense.

I also feel like people are overestimating how much Big Shootas most armies take. Adding in a few more shots really isn't going to take THAT much more time. It's only really prevalent in lists with Trukks and Skrapjets, and even then 3 extra shots per unit isn't a big deal. Hell, it might even make it a relevant upgrade for boyz squads for once.

 Tomsug wrote:
The Idea was 2x wazboom and 2x bommer. Average enemy has anti tank firepower to take down 2 jets, no more. And due the Eadbutt, he kills first the bommer that are cheaper and than you have 1 turn with your “6 smashaguns” in his deploy to make a mess and Engage all fronts. That is fine. Plus you gain 2 turns of “safety” for the rest of your army. For example - Scrapjets.

But the price for this setting is huge. Something like 670p? That is a massive part of your army. But well, on other hand, it' s 670p that silence the enemy fire and die, or annihilate him. Show me the army that survive 2 burnas Eadbutts and 2 turns of 2 wazboom fire and still be effective.

Scrapjets in DS are safe, but useless. I need their rockets and shootas to kill. I keep them back to shoot to his frontline units first. A lot of 24” anti tank in the field is common, so do not rush forward and be out of range of part of his army works fine for me. Time to charge comes later, when the field is cleared.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don' t speak about the covid... it make's me-..... sad. I play with one of my mates in his studio with the right table. So I 've played againts IG last 7 games or something like it... better than nothing but, you know....

I wouldnt say they are useless in reserves. Turn 1 most in not all armies just reposition, hiding assests behind obscuring terrain until someone makes the first move exposing themselves or ensuring that they themselves can get the drop on a target they can see and kill easily. So turn 1 say you go second, you cant get a bead on a juicy vehicle so instead the Scrapjet shoots into some screens, probably doesnt even kill the screen. Next turn because you had to commit your Scrapjets, the opponents AT reveals itself and you loose most of your buggies. So now you hide them out of LoS until turn 2 and even then they arent safe (board spanning charges, super fast shooter, artillery that ignores LoS), well guess what else does that with no risk of loosing buggies? Reserves.

They arent useless if they aint dead, you also get to dictate where that scrapjet goes.They are fairly slow as it is so if youre on a flank, your not getting on the other flank any time soon if a target presents itself. Reserves allows you to be on either side when the time calls for it. I wouldnt write off strategic reserves so quickly, ive seen it pay off so much and its not like buggy lists need all the CP anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
The Big Shoota could go and be Orky the other GW approved away. 1d6 shots, AP d3, Dd3 with all other stats staying the same. Sometimes you get 6 shots, AP -3, D3 other times 1 shots, AP -1, D1. It's fun because it's random.

*Note that this is pure sarcasm and not an actual idea anybody should embrace.*

Big shootas/dakkaguns simply need to be AP-1. Makes also sense, since they are S5 and quite big.

Maybe with a stratagem to make them AP-2 and D2, like the Sisters' blessed bolts. That could be fun on a Gunwagon or a 5 man squad of Kanz. Alternatively AP-2 or +1 to hit or damage if they fire within half range could be nice as well.

The Heavy Bolter is the Imperial equivalent of the Big Shoota. 3 shots, -1AP 2dmg. 10pts. 3 shots, 2 hits, against T4 3+ thats 1.33 wounds and 0.67 unsaved wounds which average 1.33dmg a turn.

For the same price we can currently take 2 big shootas, basically 7 shots (DDD) 2.33 hits, 1.55 wounds and .52dmg a turn.

if they gained -1 AP the numbers chance to .77dmg a turn, or a bit more than 1/2 what the Heavy Bolter does. So the question becomes, do you add more shots or do you give it 2dmg on top of getting -1AP. Otherwise yet again, the ork equivalent weapon is significantly worse. And from an ork perspective I think the correct answer is, give it more shots.

I know people some people don't like it, but I want more dice for my orkz, I can not stand that the official GW sanctioned DAKKA faction has less shots than the damn elite space marines, doesn't make any sense.

I also feel like people are overestimating how much Big Shootas most armies take. Adding in a few more shots really isn't going to take THAT much more time. It's only really prevalent in lists with Trukks and Skrapjets, and even then 3 extra shots per unit isn't a big deal. Hell, it might even make it a relevant upgrade for boyz squads for once.

I think its more how many units can have Big Shootas. All the Walkers have access to them, and on the nauts its bolted on. You bikers essentially have 2 strapped to their bikes. Your Boyz can have up to 3 in a max squad. Your Deffkopta can have 2. Battlewagons, Big Trakks, even the Stompa. We arent taking them because they arent worth it, but if they made it worth it im sure we would take them in a heart beat. Like you said its our Heavy Bolter, but as Orks we always have worst or more costly versions that the Imperials get. Id be happy with Big Shootas and Dakkaguns being assault 4 str 5 AP1. It isnt an obscene volume of shots but its a nice step forward. Instead of 12 shots on your MTSJ or Morkanaut, you have 16 with some kick to them. 6 Shots I think is too much, 5 is a little much too especially if it sees not bump in cost.

 deffrekka wrote:


I think its more how many units can have Big Shootas. All the Walkers have access to them, and on the nauts its bolted on. You bikers essentially have 2 strapped to their bikes. Your Boyz can have up to 3 in a max squad. Your Deffkopta can have 2. Battlewagons, Big Trakks, even the Stompa. We arent taking them because they arent worth it, but if they made it worth it im sure we would take them in a heart beat. Like you said its our Heavy Bolter, but as Orks we always have worst or more costly versions that the Imperials get. Id be happy with Big Shootas and Dakkaguns being assault 4 str 5 AP1. It isnt an obscene volume of shots but its a nice step forward. Instead of 12 shots on your MTSJ or Morkanaut, you have 16 with some kick to them. 6 Shots I think is too much, 5 is a little much too especially if it sees not bump in cost.

Getting AP1 and 1 more shots and no price increase moves them to 2 = 1 heavy bolter. so 8 shots 3.11 hits, 2.07 wounds and 1dmg vs T4 3+. Still 33% less effective vs a Heavy Bolter. Assault 5 is 10 shots, 3.88 hits, 2.59 wounds and 1.30dmg a turn, 0.03dmg less than a SM heavy bolter. So maybe Assault 5 -1AP 1dmg is the sweet spot.

Building this sucker. Anyone magnetize it before? It seems like you need to slot the shooter from the side. Which is awkward because the cannon mounts from the outside.

Although to be honest, I think the shooter is just better than the big cannon. I’d almost rather two cannon wagons over 1 Bursta Kill tank.

tulun wrote:
Building this sucker. Anyone magnetize it before? It seems like you need to slot the shooter from the side. Which is awkward because the cannon mounts from the outside.

Although to be honest, I think the shooter is just better than the big cannon. I’d almost rather two cannon wagons over 1 Bursta Kill tank.

Looks great! Also, I'm kinda surprised that you have such a poor view of the big kannon. Given how much multi-wound models are running about I thought it was a decent choice, even if it's 50 points more expensive than the gatler.

In a sense i can understand why he'd prefer 2 kanonwagons.

They hit on 4s across the board
More wounds split between 2 units, T7 instead of T8 but also nowhere near meltas. Most weapons that are gonna hit it arent going to care its T7 instead of T8.
4D6 shots instead of 3D6

Only thing the Bursta Kannon really has over 2x Supas is its S10 AP-3 instead of S8 AP-2. Which is significant especially when our main problem child is T5 3W 3+sv, but i wouldnt call that a dealbreaker purely for the sheer range difference.
Killtank w/ Bursta has to be within 18" to hit on 4s, thats pretty dang close so its gonna get pummeled by every anti-tank out there.

 Grimskul wrote:

tulun wrote:
Building this sucker. Anyone magnetize it before? It seems like you need to slot the shooter from the side. Which is awkward because the cannon mounts from the outside.

Although to be honest, I think the shooter is just better than the big cannon. I’d almost rather two cannon wagons over 1 Bursta Kill tank.

Looks great! Also, I'm kinda surprised that you have such a poor view of the big kannon. Given how much multi-wound models are running about I thought it was a decent choice, even if it's 50 points more expensive than the gatler.

Some napkin math.

It seems like you only really wanna take the bursta *if* you really only face 3 wound marines or a heavy vehicle meta. The Giga is 50 points cheaper and actually holds up pretty well.

You can mitigate the giga's weakness as well with Wreckers as Deathskulls. Visions as Evil suns will also slap pretty damn hard with 30 shots, that can explode on 5s if need be.

Keep in mind, it's also 18% more expensive, and because shots are random, has a lot of variance. The Giga shoota is consistent. And the +1 to hit is at 18" vs 24", which I guarantee you will become relevant for such a chonky boy.

Edit: Math here is unsaved wounds, extrapolate from there vs multiwound models.

tulun wrote:
Building this sucker. Anyone magnetize it before? It seems like you need to slot the shooter from the side. Which is awkward because the cannon mounts from the outside.

Although to be honest, I think the shooter is just better than the big cannon. I’d almost rather two cannon wagons over 1 Bursta Kill tank.

I mean, i'd say it depends on what you face. On paper the bursta is better against a bunch of targets, but the flat 30 shots and the ability to fire them point blank in tandem with the killtank's wonderful melee profile does make me lean towards dakka.

On the other other hand the Bursta does fill some roles wonderfully well. It's like a unit of tank bustas on crack.

cody.d. wrote:

tulun wrote:
Building this sucker. Anyone magnetize it before? It seems like you need to slot the shooter from the side. Which is awkward because the cannon mounts from the outside.

Although to be honest, I think the shooter is just better than the big cannon. I’d almost rather two cannon wagons over 1 Bursta Kill tank.

I mean, i'd say it depends on what you face. On paper the bursta is better against a bunch of targets, but the flat 30 shots and the ability to fire them point blank in tandem with the killtank's wonderful melee profile does make me lean towards dakka.

On the other other hand the Bursta does fill some roles wonderfully well. It's like a unit of tank bustas on crack.

I think we have other good options to take instead, though.

Supa Kannon (Kannonwagon) is 2d6 STR 8, AP-2, Flat 3 shots for 170 points. Hits on 4s at 60", and can hide behind obscuring terrain.

You can take 2 of them for roughly the cost of 1 Bursta Kill Tank.

Edit: One other interesting thing too, which I don't think I could math properly without some effort -- the Giga Shoota also never wastes damage from a feel no pain roll, where 1-2 damage could be wasted per Bursta Kannon shot.

I wonder how that would ultimately shift the math around.

I can't remember, but Kannonwagons would fit under the lower casting value for Visions correct?