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As I wrote in the other thread, if GW's plans wouldn't have gotten messed up as thoroughly as they were, Orks would have hit in February or March, so this might very well be his new datasheet.

I also don't understand the sentiment of "making him relevant again" - Thrakka is the centerpiece of the most powerful ork build right now.

 Jidmah wrote:
As I wrote in the other thread, if GW's plans wouldn't have gotten messed up as thoroughly as they were, Orks would have hit in February or March, so this might very well be his new datasheet.

I also don't understand the sentiment of "making him relevant again" - Thrakka is the centerpiece of the most powerful ork build right now.

to be fair, it would be nice of him to not be needed in a goff detatchment to be useful (like painboy healing). Or at least make it so that the patrol hes in is free even if he isnt the warlord or something along those lines.

If those are his stats though, its sad he doesnt get a sweeping strike but i guess maybe that rapid fire 12 can make up for some things.

I wonder what abilities he will get/retain.

I also really hope the morkanaut and gorkanaut gets a price reduction (specially considering the killtanks are 275 points for 24 wounds). It feels like any ork vehicle costing more than 200 points (generally) isnt worth it (except killtanks) due to how low our survivability is. We dont dictate first or second round, and the morkanaut dont get obscurring from ruins (ofc unless its got no holes or windows so they cant see him), so hes pretty hard to hide. Ive been using a morkanaut in my two last battles, and i didnt start both of them. In both scenarios he was just taken off turn 1 to long range shooting (48 inches). I mean thats ork models for you i dont really mind generally speaking, except i paid 340 points for him. in fact in the first game, both a Mega dread, a trukk, and my morkanaut were taken off. Thats pretty ballsy shooting right there (10 terminators with heavy bolters shooting twice, and 3 defilers), which wouldnt bother me, except the 340 points for the morkanaut.

I feel like the pricing on quite a few units is way off for orks, yet for some reason we still win (but usually not with those units though). Something with the price of 340 shouldnt die that easy, but since orks arent about survivability which im okay with, id rather wanna see him get quite a bit cheaper, than id see him get harder to kill.


Same goes for what we get for 40 points in Mega Nobz considering what everyone else gets for 38 points in terminators. I think 40 points is a good Mega Nobz price, and im not really interested in invulsaves, but since we dont have that, the mega nobz must be cemented in their own way, in what makes them good. We have no invul save, no deepstrike, move of 4", and unwieldy weapons, + terrible BS and terrible ranged weapon choice.

Then you look at the amount of firepower even at range many terminators can deal after which they can do decently in close combat too. Mega Nobz should either be faster and way tougher (toughness 5, 4wounds) and remove the unwieldiness of their powerklaw/killsaws to make them great close combat specialists + a move of 5. At least that way i find it okay to pay 40 points for a model that has no invul save, has no deepstrike, has no real ranged capabilities.

Many terminators can be used alone as they are, but you rarely can use Mega Nobz as is, you always need to pay for your own deepstrike for 2CP, pay for a transport (usually 135 at least for a Battlewagon) or da jump them with your weird boy. Mega Nobz should be more capable on their own too. Or unless you run a Goff list with Ghaz and 90 boyz, then theres threat saturation that sort of protects them too.

That said I feel like Mega Nobz do well, they just arent as efficient as other terminators. And if we pay more/equal to them, the Mega Nobz should at least be more efficient and updated. at least in the survivability department perhabs still without invul saves and our close combat powers.

Beardedragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
As I wrote in the other thread, if GW's plans wouldn't have gotten messed up as thoroughly as they were, Orks would have hit in February or March, so this might very well be his new datasheet.

I also don't understand the sentiment of "making him relevant again" - Thrakka is the centerpiece of the most powerful ork build right now.

to be fair, it would be nice of him to not be needed in a goff detatchment to be useful (like painboy healing). Or at least make it so that the patrol hes in is free even if he isnt the warlord or something along those lines.

If those are his stats though, its sad he doesnt get a sweeping strike but i guess maybe that rapid fire 12 can make up for some things.

I wonder what abilities he will get/retain.

Well pain boyz could go either way really. With beast snaggas comming, they might be able to patch up beast as well as infantry, which would then also mean that Grotznik can do it. Outside of that, if you look at other characters like Thrakka, they will always work best in their own sub-faction. Anyways, people would mind a lot less if Thrakka wasn't as important to top competitive play as he is now.

For "no sweeping", it's worth noting that he went up to 7 attacks from 5, plus his own Waaagh!, whatever his new warlord trait and new goff will provide him with. The new Lord of Terra has 10 sweeping attacks, Thrakka with that profile and the old rules can easily get 10-11 heavy attacks in, doubling that into sweeping attacks would be kind of insane.
Any unit worth sweeping will now get hit by twice as many shots from Mork's Roar and the heavy stikkbomb.

Warboss on bike is nearly as good as Ghaz for 1/3 the cost. He’s actually better in some ways (movement, LOS, warlord trait).

Oh cmon Jidmah you know GW will only let the Painboss heal Beasts as an incentive for all of us that have like 3+ painboyz to get the new model lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Oh cmon Jidmah you know GW will only let the Painboss heal Beasts as an incentive for all of us that have like 3+ painboyz to get the new model lol

So true

I just had my Drukhari match and for the first time in a long time I conceded a game. In my command phase at the start of my turn 4, my opponent had a 40+ VP lead and I had 0 primary points. All I had left was the Morkanaut (stuck in combat), a kannonwagon (stuck in combat), a half-dead burna bommer and lone boomdakka snazzwagon on an objective that he didn't even bother to kill because it does so little damage.

I had hot dice, killed a bunch of boats and wiped their passengers before they could reach me, made almost every charge no matter how far, hit above average on most rolls, made a ton of 6++ saves, had some beautiful explosions and the naut even killed Drazahr in overwatch. He also had trouble killing my vehicles because he relied heavy on poison and I don't think a single dark lance hit over the course of the entire game. Outside of my MANz who failed their charge and were clobbered to death by wracks, there were no big failures.

And despite all that, the drukhari just ran into my deployment zone, murdered everything even remotely near an objective and took it for themselves. I never held more than a single objective.

This really does feel like playing 7th edition orks vs craftworld, I don't think a buggy list stands any chance against them.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Oh cmon Jidmah you know GW will only let the Painboss heal Beasts as an incentive for all of us that have like 3+ painboyz to get the new model lol

So true

I just had my Drukhari match and for the first time in a long time I conceded a game. In my command phase at the start of my turn 4, my opponent had a 40+ VP lead and I had 0 primary points. All I had left was the Morkanaut (stuck in combat), a kannonwagon (stuck in combat), a half-dead burna bommer and lone boomdakka snazzwagon on an objective that he didn't even bother to kill because it does so little damage.

I had hot dice, killed a bunch of boats and wiped their passengers before they could reach me, made almost every charge no matter how far, hit above average on most rolls, made a ton of 6++ saves, had some beautiful explosions and the naut even killed Drazahr in overwatch. He also had trouble killing my vehicles because he relied heavy on poison and I don't think a single dark lance hit over the course of the entire game. Outside of my MANz who failed their charge and were clobbered to death by wracks, there were no big failures.

And despite all that, the drukhari just ran into my deployment zone, murdered everything even remotely near an objective and took it for themselves. I never held more than a single objective.

This really does feel like playing 7th edition orks vs craftworld, I don't think a buggy list stands any chance against them.

Yeah, their mobility and ability to trade up so cost efficiently means we're fighting a very uphill battle against them. Especially since the all boyz list doesn't do well against their ability to put out a lot of horde clearing units while they have cost-effective anti-tank as well. So even skew lists aren't able to handle them very well.

Until they FAQ some of the egregious stuff like Dark Technomancers and possibly some points adjustments, I don't see most armies being able to handle both them and the marines currently gatekeeping the other armies atm.

BDBurrow wrote:
Warboss on bike is nearly as good as Ghaz for 1/3 the cost. He’s actually better in some ways (movement, LOS, warlord trait).

Warboss on bike does need the biggest boss strat and relic to be nearly as good as ghaz though.
Soon enough our codex will change things up though and I don’t expect forgeworld units to change much (sadly as most other units could be improved).

Well, the big changes to the FW stuff will come in the form of special rule, weapon and stratagem changes. Not much specifically with them, but a lot of things that decide if they mesh with your list or not.

When the new codex hits, does it also change up the forge world units? Or will those units remain exactly as they are?

gungo wrote:

BDBurrow wrote:
Warboss on bike is nearly as good as Ghaz for 1/3 the cost. He’s actually better in some ways (movement, LOS, warlord trait).

Warboss on bike does need the biggest boss strat and relic to be nearly as good as ghaz though.

For the odd occasion of needing your relic elsewhere (MA big mek usually), a biker warboss with killsaw and warlord trait also works fine.

Beardedragon wrote:
When the new codex hits, does it also change up the forge world units? Or will those units remain exactly as they are?

The FW units just got new rules, so they likely won't be updated unfortunately.

 Grimskul wrote:
Yeah, their mobility and ability to trade up so cost efficiently means we're fighting a very uphill battle against them. Especially since the all boyz list doesn't do well against their ability to put out a lot of horde clearing units while they have cost-effective anti-tank as well. So even skew lists aren't able to handle them very well.

Until they FAQ some of the egregious stuff like Dark Technomancers and possibly some points adjustments, I don't see most armies being able to handle both them and the marines currently gatekeeping the other armies atm.

My opponent wasn't even particularly competitive, though he is a good player - no Technomancers and he was running a realspace raid focused around reducing moral, phantasm grenade launchers and a bunch of chronos.

It's just the immense hitting power of blood brides, trueborn, incubi, wracks, drazahr and the succubus put out. Each of those picks a unit to kill and it just dies. In turn 2 alone, I lost 2 KBB, 2 scrapjets, 1 boomdakka snazzwagon, my warboss and my wartrike. Totally insane.

Sleeping a night on it, it really felt like he was playing an extra 500 points against me. Luckily, Drukhari and Orks have always been very similar armies, so I hope they are just heralding what we can expect for our codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beardedragon wrote:
When the new codex hits, does it also change up the forge world units? Or will those units remain exactly as they are?

They will remain the same, but when they reference the ork codex, those rules will change as well. For example, when power klaws or killsaws change, the warboss on warbike will be using the new profiles, anything on his own datasheet will remain as is.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Oh cmon Jidmah you know GW will only let the Painboss heal Beasts as an incentive for all of us that have like 3+ painboyz to get the new model lol

So true

I just had my Drukhari match and for the first time in a long time I conceded a game. In my command phase at the start of my turn 4, my opponent had a 40+ VP lead and I had 0 primary points. All I had left was the Morkanaut (stuck in combat), a kannonwagon (stuck in combat), a half-dead burna bommer and lone boomdakka snazzwagon on an objective that he didn't even bother to kill because it does so little damage.

I had hot dice, killed a bunch of boats and wiped their passengers before they could reach me, made almost every charge no matter how far, hit above average on most rolls, made a ton of 6++ saves, had some beautiful explosions and the naut even killed Drazahr in overwatch. He also had trouble killing my vehicles because he relied heavy on poison and I don't think a single dark lance hit over the course of the entire game. Outside of my MANz who failed their charge and were clobbered to death by wracks, there were no big failures.

And despite all that, the drukhari just ran into my deployment zone, murdered everything even remotely near an objective and took it for themselves. I never held more than a single objective.

This really does feel like playing 7th edition orks vs craftworld, I don't think a buggy list stands any chance against them.

In other words - Snazzwagons were not so impressive?

I' ve found that buggy list needs essentially high number of cheap small infantry squads to screen himself and block the way. KBB works the same - best points-per-square-inch-of-the-base price. However, I'm not so sure, this can help much againts any type of “eldar” army. Infantry and characters on small bases. In fact, even huge vehicles sitting on something like 40mm round base. Every second unit flyies…

I would not worry too much about this match up for now, as soon:
1 drukhari are getting nerfed (not just DT liquifiers I think) and
2 orks will get a new codex.

ATM the match up is impossible for orks, as we have bad durability (one of the worst among all armies), and as such are just fodder for the DE units. Buggies can at least kill one or two raiders turn 1 (thinking of shokk jump dragstas) but they will get smashed in return, and from there the game just unfolds with orks losing stuff twice as expensive.
A few of these bad trades and you end up tables with DE having 1000 points still on the table.

As Jidmah said, 7th edition all over again so try it once, concede, then don't do the MUp again until GW sorts it out. I don't even know what an ork list built specifically to kill DE would look like. I don't see any of our units being efficient against them, aside perhaps from mek guns (raiders toughness 6 is a good target for them) which will be very dependant on terrain.

Dragstas with the upgrade can perhaps DStriking turn 1 + mek gunz can maybe result in enough dead raiders turn 1 (assuming orks go first) ?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/05/17/believe-it-or-not-this-runtherd-was-exiled-for-being-nice-to-grots/

here ya go.

So far, not very interesting.

A gretchin core unit (how much you wanna bet that even though marine dreads are core, our walkers wont be) can hit on 3s and shoot while doing an action. Sounds dope until you realize thats a 12" 1 shot S3 AP0 pistol youre buffing lol. half the time i dont even shoot with grots, theyre not even in range of anything in the first place.

i'm still expecting a new grot unit though so we'll see how he fairs later.

(course this all completely flips if by some miracle Killakanz are core. Not infantry, but hitting on 3s is dope)

Fight last for monsters only is situational at best. So far this is a huge swing and a miss unless grots are getting massive buffs. I have to say I would be good with the latter if they do intend to keep them at 5 pts.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
So far, not very interesting.

A gretchin core unit (how much you wanna bet that even though marine dreads are core, our walkers wont be) can hit on 3s and shoot while doing an action. Sounds dope until you realize thats a 12" 1 shot S3 AP0 pistol youre buffing lol. half the time i dont even shoot with grots, theyre not even in range of anything in the first place.

i'm still expecting a new grot unit though so we'll see how he fairs later.

(course this all completely flips if by some miracle Killakanz are core. Not infantry, but hitting on 3s is dope)

Yeah, that would make KK actually work taking, assuming they also either give them a points cut or some type of boost to their current ability in damage output right now.

Given how much they're upgunning a lot of the basic infantry in the new books so far, I wouldn't be surprised if grot blastas changed into 18" assault 1 instead, which could make his buffs a little more relevant.

Yeah but unless the buff the str of the blasta I still don't think it'll be super relevant.

My guess is that they're adding new units of grots. Perhaps snipers? That will be core and can benefit from Zodgrod.

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
Yeah but unless the buff the str of the blasta I still don't think it'll be super relevant.

My guess is that they're adding new units of grots. Perhaps snipers? That will be core and can benefit from Zodgrod.

Gork, I hope so. Sniper grots are something that always seemed a natural fit for them given their preference for ranged weaponry and especially since IG's equivalent, Ratlings, exist. Not to mention Orks really lack a way to pick off characters at range barring getting a lucky deep strike shot with the shokkjump dragsta.

Gretchin Snipers or 'Eavy Gunners (probably multi-grot-per-base in the mindset of guard artillery squads) would super love that buff.
'Eavy Gunners of course using bigshootas, KMB's, rokkits, or whatever new weapon they may add in that profile range.

There is one hilariously amusing silver lining with the Squigstoppa though. All its looking for is Monster.
Girlyman is a Monster fyi LOL

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Gretchin Snipers or 'Eavy Gunners (probably multi-grot-per-base in the mindset of guard artillery squads) would super love that buff.
'Eavy Gunners of course using bigshootas, KMB's, rokkits, or whatever new weapon they may add in that profile range.

There is one hilariously amusing silver lining with the Squigstoppa though. All its looking for is Monster.
Girlyman is a Monster fyi LOL

HA! You're right, good catch! I can hear the GW FAQ writers furiously typing an errata now so that it doesn't affect their beloved Primarch models

 addnid wrote:
I would not worry too much about this match up for now, as soon:
1 drukhari are getting nerfed (not just DT liquifiers I think) and
2 orks will get a new codex.

ATM the match up is impossible for orks, as we have bad durability (one of the worst among all armies), and as such are just fodder for the DE units. Buggies can at least kill one or two raiders turn 1 (thinking of shokk jump dragstas) but they will get smashed in return, and from there the game just unfolds with orks losing stuff twice as expensive.
A few of these bad trades and you end up tables with DE having 1000 points still on the table.

As Jidmah said, 7th edition all over again so try it once, concede, then don't do the MUp again until GW sorts it out. I don't even know what an ork list built specifically to kill DE would look like. I don't see any of our units being efficient against them, aside perhaps from mek guns (raiders toughness 6 is a good target for them) which will be very dependant on terrain.

Dragstas with the upgrade can perhaps DStriking turn 1 + mek gunz can maybe result in enough dead raiders turn 1 (assuming orks go first) ?

If you get your units in CC in their deploy, it starts to be interesting. BW with warboss via luck&ramming speed, Scrapjets in Telyport ramming speed in T2. But it' s just about how to make at least something. The match up is super hard right now as you say.

On the most of the tables used on TTS tournaments, it' s pretty easy to hide the Eldars out of LOS in T1… Bad luck for SMG. Kannonwagon (incl. Reroll on number of shots and More Dakka) is better, but just one and super CP hungry.

The new rules will be in our hands no earlier than in 2 months, so there is to 2 months of fighting in such conditions. So the topic is still relevant

Gretchin snipers is the best idea for a new ork unit I have ever heard I think. On just so many levels !
Also, i have lots grot models which I don't use, I could just convert them.

May GW hear you Kaptin_Grubkrumpa

Orks are missing a sniper unit...

Also the tease at the end of the article sounds like we are getting some type of “warboss on squig chariot” character.

Since the squig chariot was previewed in the cartoon that’s my guess for the squig character they are hinting at... Seems like they are overloading our fast atk and HQ choices though...

There's no way Killa Kans will be core, sadly.

Nob Bikers lack <CORE> in IA, but they do have Speed Waaaagh.

So that buff is for grot troops only. Useless.

But what it does imply, though, that Orks are looking like they'll get Dark Angels styles detachments.

Walkerz, Speed Waaagh

I'd love to see a speed waaagh like they had in the PA book. Doubling movement instead of rolling for advance was gave squighide tired' bikes a HUGE threat range.

 Tomsug wrote:
In other words - Snazzwagons were not so impressive?

Well, they did ok, better than squig buggies anyways. I did face an army where everything was T3 and had no armor save to speak of though and I doubt they would have done anything worth noting in another game. On a hilarious anecdote, I thought they would be perfect for taking out an archon's shadow field who then just proceeded to roll 17 2+ saves

Considering how I barely managed to fit my army into my deployment zone to begin with, there really is no reason to run them over the other buggies. I'd say they are good enough for casual games or crusade forces though, unlike the squig buggy which is just hot garbage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 addnid wrote:
I would not worry too much about this match up for now, as soon:
1 drukhari are getting nerfed (not just DT liquifiers I think) and
2 orks will get a new codex.

ATM the match up is impossible for orks, as we have bad durability (one of the worst among all armies), and as such are just fodder for the DE units. Buggies can at least kill one or two raiders turn 1 (thinking of shokk jump dragstas) but they will get smashed in return, and from there the game just unfolds with orks losing stuff twice as expensive.
A few of these bad trades and you end up tables with DE having 1000 points still on the table.

As Jidmah said, 7th edition all over again so try it once, concede, then don't do the MUp again until GW sorts it out. I don't even know what an ork list built specifically to kill DE would look like. I don't see any of our units being efficient against them, aside perhaps from mek guns (raiders toughness 6 is a good target for them) which will be very dependant on terrain.

Dragstas with the upgrade can perhaps DStriking turn 1 + mek gunz can maybe result in enough dead raiders turn 1 (assuming orks go first) ?

Doubtful. My two SJD killed a raider with wyches (who were then murdered by big shootas and speshuls), the KBB and the kannonwagon blew up the trueborn's ride and the scrapjets plus morkanaut de-meched the incubi. The turn after the trueborns stole the blood bride's ride and the incubi just ran into combat.
I don't think it gets vastly better than this.

BDBurrow wrote:
Fight last for monsters only is situational at best. So far this is a huge swing and a miss unless grots are getting massive buffs. I have to say I would be good with the latter if they do intend to keep them at 5 pts.

It'd be kinda funny to rock up to a primarch and slap them with this to prevent the interrupt stratagem. But yeah, otherwise there aren't a huge number of monsters about worth the ability.