Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

GW is rules first, models second. By adding more and more books that need to be bought, they secure a solid income base.

ForgeWorld is models first, rules second. Many of their rules are covered by GW already.

Dunno how you argue that GW is rules first models second when they literally design the model first, then the fluff, and then figure the rules out for it last. There is no direction for the models based on whst is needed for a faction ruleswise, just about everything is driven by what the artists and sculptors think will look cool and what management thinks will sell best.

Well the models exist as game pieces so that they can be used in the game... SO the two are equivalent I think.

Off the top of my head I can think of only miniature company that makes miniatures that do not have a game system to use the minatures in is creature caster. There are probably others but vats majority have a game of some sort.

However they have expanded their IP to literature, media and video games. In order to ascertain what makes them most money out of these revenue stream we would need to look at some figures.

The question becomes: IF 51% of their profit came from books. Are they then predominantly a publisher ?

The rules for 40K and AOS exist in such a way to MAXIMIZE profit and model sales. It does not exist to make the best game possible. The game is a tool to sell models.

Model agnostic rule sets tend to be on the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to how sales impact design and balance.

If tomorrow they stopped the game all together and said "we are now just doing these as collectors and will no longer release any rules for the game" would they keep selling and growing their market share/popularity?

They bought the rights to A GAME and I don’t see the word miniature in the company name...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Without the game I am certain the model sales would be be nearly nonexistent.

if the models sucked would you still play or even have been interested in the first place?

Since the rules "suck", is the only reason you play due to the models?

the two above would lead me to believe they're a mini company first.

I like the IP realized in physical form and the game is something cool to do with my nicely sculpted and painted minis.

GW is a miniature company first and foremost, but without the rules people would only buy singles of models instead of dozens and dozens.

macluvin wrote:
They bought the rights to A GAME and I don’t see the word miniature in the company name...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Without the game I am certain the model sales would be be nearly nonexistent.

Not true, because third party games exist and those can use third party miniatures. If you released the game as is today with no IP backing, it would be laughed at 100%.

 Argive wrote:
If tomorrow they stopped the game all together and said "we are now just doing these as collectors and will no longer release any rules for the game" would they keep selling and growing their market share/popularity?

I doubt it. Too many people are just stupid & refuse to play a game, even one they & friends enjoy, once it's not actively supported.

My vote on what GW is?
A company who 8/10 times makes excellent models & decent rules/games 50% of the time.

Media company.

I think once i started to really get way more minis, I think there line as a whole is rather mediocre. With there best stuff being solid but nothing particularly special.
Forge world i would be more up on if not for how much failure we have had on there stuff... Its kind of depressing.

Rules, They are flat Average at best. Some things would be ok if not for the other dumpster fires they set off beforehand. Bleh.

I said nether particularly well, since the top answer really did not fit what i think. but the minis are the highlight of the company, but i think other Company putting out way better stuff.

They're the splayd of game/miniatures companies (I mean, it can be a fork, or a spoon or a knife, but doesn't do any of those jobs particularly well.)
Who make stuff out of crystallised unicorn tears.

For a company that makes models, GW does make it so you need a lot of books to play their games. Well at least it is not like high school, where each year you have to bring new books, so the teacher can sign it.

Karol wrote:
For a company that makes models, GW does make it so you need a lot of books to play their games. Well at least it is not like high school, where each year you have to bring new books, so the teacher can sign it.

Heh. Wait'll you get to college.

It's actually a game/rules company which does minis very well.
But it lacks in the rules department.

Sadly, models first, second and third. Rules are now getting a fourth place

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:
For a company that makes models, GW does make it so you need a lot of books to play their games. Well at least it is not like high school, where each year you have to bring new books, so the teacher can sign it.

Heh. Wait'll you get to college.

Yeah I heard about it from my mom, it is even worse then. Every professor lives out of the fact that he has 200-300 students that have to buy a new edition of his book, or they won't be allowed to take the exam. At high school, they at least there are fewer books. It is like buying supplements from your trainer. Technicly you don't have to, But also technicaly you don't have to finish school.

 Nevelon wrote:
Hybrid, that does the minis very well and the rules just OK. But the company is both is roughly equal parts.

Not an option for your poll.

This

Wish this had been an option on the poll too.

Karol wrote:

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:
For a company that makes models, GW does make it so you need a lot of books to play their games. Well at least it is not like high school, where each year you have to bring new books, so the teacher can sign it.

Heh. Wait'll you get to college.

Yeah I heard about it from my mom, it is even worse then. Every professor lives out of the fact that he has 200-300 students that have to buy a new edition of his book, or they won't be allowed to take the exam. At high school, they at least there are fewer books. It is like buying supplements from your trainer. Technicly you don't have to, But also technicaly you don't have to finish school.

And in college you'll probably only need a few pages of that expensive book you just paid for (kinda like Geedubs).

Even though I believe in the beginning GW were just a bit amateur/inept at balancing/rules writing, I don't think it's the case now. I think they are perfectly aware of the fact that their rules are perfect for selling models.

I guess they have hit the sweet spot, similarly to MTG, of a mix of key elements: low-skill, high-randomness, pay-to-win, width giving the illusion of depth ruleset which is perfect as a business model, even if it offers mediocre gameplay at best. (well, at least MTG plays quick, with no long and tedious resolution phase)

More skill based games don't encourage as much spending, and have lower appeal for mass customer due to the required skill being a barrier of entry. I guess most people are more willing to risk their money in a game of poker than Go (or any other high-skill game) and that's a similar mechanism that GW and WotC take advantage of with their products.

So yeah, bad game, random and with atrocious balance - but in my opinion 100% on purpose due to business reasons.

They are a miniatures company.

But it's not "just" eye candy (though that is enough for many).

Rules/Games are a supplementary product that helps sell the miniatures.

E.g. Starbucks is a coffee company, not a sandwich company. But they sell sandwiches, as getting people into the store for a sandwich during lunch can help them sell coffee.


Also, why only miniatures and game rules as the two options?

Is Games Workshop a paints, brushes and arts supply company?
Is Games Workshop a publishing house for fantasy and science fiction literature?
Is Games Workshop an IP manager for digital products?
Is Games Workshop an event centre with adjacent pub/eatery?

Blastaar wrote:

Why buy rules and play the game at all, then?

Because 'the game' isn't everything. Nor is it the pinnacle,of the hobby.

Indeed, why bother? Plenty people do in fact not bother. Plenty people don't play.

Plenty folks enjoy the painting and modelling and/or the lore and while you and I may consider it cool to actually do stuff with the things we build, not everyone approaches it that way. Plenty people don't play, for whatever reasons or play so rarely that it makes no difference. And they're not wrong for approaching this hobby differently or valuing different things. Horses for courses really.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Dunno how you argue that GW is rules first models second when they literally design the model first, then the fluff, and then figure the rules out for it last. There is no direction for the models based on whst is needed for a faction ruleswise, just about everything is driven by what the artists and sculptors think will look cool and what management thinks will sell best.

My army is completely comprised of models from 20+ years ago - Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. I have been able to use all those models for two decades, yet the rulebooks keep changing. In fact, once you add all the White Dwarfs, Codexes, Supplements, Rulebooks, Accessories, you end up with a result that is higher than what I have spent on my army. If GW was primarily a model first company, then I would need to buy new models to keep playing the game. That is not the case, however, I do need to keep updating my ruleset. GW makes an absolute ton primarily off long term players who usually go for the rules, as well as new players - the common denominator, is that both groups have to buy the rules, whilst the older players don't necessarily need to buy new models. That said, some TO's add a stipulation that you must use more recent models rather than significantly older ones. I suspect this has something to do with model sizes and LoS. The original Land Raider comes to mind here...

They are obviously better at model making than rules, but they have made some good games and continue to do so.

Today, in 2020, Games Workshop is an intellectual property company. Without the Warhammer IP, they would have nearly nothing.

Everything they do flows from that. The IP creates the story as to why you want these little space dudes. The game gives you a reason to build and paint them. The books and video games give you the story.

And I don't buy the line of, well everybody plays it so that's what I have to play. Everybody knows how to play poker, but you never see poker being played at a game store. Its always some dense board game. People play Warhammer because it's Warhammer, and there is something they really enjoy about it.

They're a great company that has come a long way in the least 5 years from where they were. They work hard to produce not only a top notch, superb product, with which few companies can compete, while also making fun, engaging and exciting tabletop games

7th nearly drove me out.
8th saved me.
9th is even better than 8th so far for me.

GW provides a common operating system wherein you've got the best chance of finding an opponent/pick-up game---especially if you play in store environments. That's their advantage and why they can charge stupid prices. GW knows that gamers know that if they wanna play a mass appeal miniatures game, for many, if not most folks, it's warhammer or nothing.

 Togusa wrote:
They work hard to produce not only a top notch, superb product, with which few companies can compete, while also making fun, engaging and exciting tabletop games

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why you're not supposed to post when you've been drinking...

 Phobos wrote:
Today, in 2020, Games Workshop is an intellectual property company. Without the Warhammer IP, they would have nearly nothing.

Everything they do flows from that. The IP creates the story as to why you want these little space dudes. The game gives you a reason to build and paint them. The books and video games give you the story.

And I don't buy the line of, well everybody plays it so that's what I have to play. Everybody knows how to play poker, but you never see poker being played at a game store. Its always some dense board game. People play Warhammer because it's Warhammer, and there is something they really enjoy about it.

Thanks for writing my post for me. Rules sell models but it's the universe sells the rules. If you want to bring it full circle, you could say models build the universe, but I don't know how much time Rick Priestley et al. spent looking at the LE2 space marine while writing rogue trader.

Cyel wrote:
Even though I believe in the beginning GW were just a bit amateur/inept at balancing/rules writing, I don't think it's the case now. I think they are perfectly aware of the fact that their rules are perfect for selling models.

you know that this was their very original buisness plan back 40 years ago?

GW started as European distributor of D&D and selling models for it.
and at one point got the idea that they make more money from selling models than from selling the game, so they created rules that needed more models

rules are there so sell models is the main business plan of GW and it always have been

they might have cared a little bit more about the rule back when the managment liked to play their own games, but the main buisness has always been the same