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@CommunistNapkin

Yeah good point, but the BS is only wasted on 3 out of 10 guys. Those shotguns are assault so beinig vets mitigates the -1 for advance and shoot. SW squads seem a bit lacking sinice it's only 6 guys and they take an elite slot. 6 is an awkward number for blast and transport capacity also I think.

@RegularGuy

Cheers! the volume of material is huge but I am getting there...still got to catch up on all the lore as well, but I am loving it.

Catachan is a good call. I am thinking this is an suicide squad, so plasma makes them too expensive. Having all assault weapons makes it so they can run up and unload, then overwatch with flamers if they get charged - or spend some on melee buffs and get stuck themselves.

PaddyMick wrote:
@CommunistNapkin

Yeah good point, but the BS is only wasted on 3 out of 10 guys. Those shotguns are assault so beinig vets mitigates the -1 for advance and shoot. SW squads seem a bit lacking sinice it's only 6 guys and they take an elite slot. 6 is an awkward number for blast and transport capacity also I think.

@RegularGuy

Cheers! the volume of material is huge but I am getting there...still got to catch up on all the lore as well, but I am loving it.

Catachan is a good call. I am thinking this is an suicide squad, so plasma makes them too expensive. Having all assault weapons makes it so they can run up and unload, then overwatch with flamers if they get charged - or spend some on melee buffs and get stuck themselves.

Some notes regarding the current rules:
1st: regarding transport capacity: Chimeras and Valkyries have a capacity of 12, so can fit exactly 2 Special weapons Squads (or 3 Command Squads while we are at it). So they are not really awkward to Transport. Regarding blast: against 6 models it only increases the average number of hits from 3.5 to 4.That's not really that bad.
2nd: Vets also take an elite slot in 9th edition (as in 8th edition)
3rd: overwatch now costs 1 CP. That might not always be worth it on a veteran squad, even if it has 3 flamers

See it that way: a Veteran squad with shotguns and 3 flamers is 75 Points. 2 SWS with 6 flamers are EDIT: 90 Points (so 20% more). Yes the Veterans can shoot their shotguns after advancing, but that does not balance out twice the flamers.
Vets after advancing: 10.5 flamer hits + 6 shotgun hits (as the sergeant has a pistol)
2 SWS after advancing: 21 flamer hits. (so 27% more)
Both variants fit in a chimera or Valkyrie.

Then again: do as you like. I don't want to Keep you from using vets, I just want to point out that for flamers SWS are the more points efficient option as their worse BS doesn't matter.

@Pyroalchi

Thanks for that analysis. I always thought of the extra 2 slots in a chimera being for characters, but 2 SW squads works - although it is 2 elite squads, compared to one. With a 10 man team the cheaper, faster taurox is an option too.

I take your point about damage output with more flamers, but say you didn't need to advance with the shotguns, you get an extra couple of hits.

You are right about the overwatch.

Of course you are right with the Taurox/additional officers/priests in the Chimera. The latter would be especially useful with catachans.
In the end I guess it comes down to personal preference and which transports one has at his/her disposal.

Had a 2000 pts against the Silent King's shiny host yesterday night. While I got lucky in the first shooting phase and managed to bring the big guy himself down in the fist round, the Necron player eventually outperformed me on primary objectives and won the game with a 10 points lead because I didn't manage to remove his 20 man strong Necron Warrior troops from the objectives. Both Manticore rockets and Plasma cannons, which I had brought in anticipation of tough vehicles, proved ineffective against hordes of 1W models that kept coming back, despite their maxed Blast.
So I'm thinking to change the loadout for the rematch. Instead of Executioner commanders and 2 Manticore aces with Full payload, I am pondering 2 Punisher commander aces with Weapon expert and 2 normal Manticores. I also want to ditch some other stuff from the list (I brought a Devil Dog who did absolutely nothing) and add a Lambdan Lions detachment with 1 Tempestor with Keys to the Armoury and two 10 man squads with max Volley Gun loadout.

Other thoughts on effectively (as in: make sure the damn tin buckets stay dead) decimating Necron infantry?

Quick question about Scions

I have not fielded any scions since they became their own thing, but I do have about 40 old metal Stormtrooper models that I want to field.

Can I use scion squads in a non-scion detachment? Meaning if I pick Tallran for my regimental doctrine, can I have a a few scions squads without it messing up the doctrine for the rest of the army or would it prevent it?

 Salted Diamond wrote:
Quick question about Scions

I have not fielded any scions since they became their own thing, but I do have about 40 old metal Stormtrooper models that I want to field.

Can I use scion squads in a non-scion detachment? Meaning if I pick Tallran for my regimental doctrine, can I have a a few scions squads without it messing up the doctrine for the rest of the army or would it prevent it?

You preserve the doctrine, but the Scions themselves dont benefit from it. Same as with Bullgryns, Ratlings and psykers.

It would work, but you can also get a scions detachment for as little as adding a single tempest prime to your couple of squads, and spending the 2 cp.
Those scions now have extra doctrines available AND a host of their own specific strategems that you don't get with non-detachment scions. And it means gaurd can take (only way!) a second warlord trait on the tempest prime for a cp. Which means you can end up shooting 2 full payload manticores hunterkiller missles using the (not often seen) grand strategist desperation reroll. For a flat 6D weapon, you sort of figure that 1 cp spent before the game worth it, fire two such missles, and you expect to lose a single hit, wound, roll. So you fix that.

that's not an option for the manticore duo if there is no spare warlord.

 Esmer wrote:
Had a 2000 pts against the Silent King's shiny host yesterday night. While I got lucky in the first shooting phase and managed to bring the big guy himself down in the fist round, the Necron player eventually outperformed me on primary objectives and won the game with a 10 points lead because I didn't manage to remove his 20 man strong Necron Warrior troops from the objectives. Both Manticore rockets and Plasma cannons, which I had brought in anticipation of tough vehicles, proved ineffective against hordes of 1W models that kept coming back, despite their maxed Blast.
So I'm thinking to change the loadout for the rematch. Instead of Executioner commanders and 2 Manticore aces with Full payload, I am pondering 2 Punisher commander aces with Weapon expert and 2 normal Manticores. I also want to ditch some other stuff from the list (I brought a Devil Dog who did absolutely nothing) and add a Lambdan Lions detachment with 1 Tempestor with Keys to the Armoury and two 10 man squads with max Volley Gun loadout.

Other thoughts on effectively (as in: make sure the damn tin buckets stay dead) decimating Necron infantry?

I also just played against the Silent King and his shiny host yesterday! My game went slightly better, but it was very, very close (65-64 victory for me).

In regards to decimating Necron infantry, Punisher tanks commanders with Weapon Expert would certainly be the best option I can think of. But be careful replacing all of your anti-tank with anti-infantry options. Necrons have some very stout vehicles (not to mention the Silent King himself), and if you don't have any tools to deal with them you might be in for a load of trouble. Additionally, the Punishers will only have a 24" range, and if you're within range to shoot them, they're in range to shoot you. If the SK is floating around, he can easily remove a Leman Russ per turn with no trouble. Definitely ditch the Devil Dog though; normal Hellhounds will do better against Necrons, especially mass infantry lists.

Here's a summary of the list I took against Necrons yesterday:

Brigade (Cadian)
2x Company Commanders
2x Tank Commanders (battle cannons, x3 heavy bolters, one with Slow and Purposeful)
1x Primaris Psyker
6x Infantry Squads (2 with plasma guns, 4 with melta guns)
3x Astropaths
5-man Ogryn Squad
3-man Bullgryn squad
1x Ministorum Priest
2x Hellhounds with Heavy Flamers
2x Armored Sentinels (1 autocannon, 1 ML due to points)
2x Basilisks
1x Manticore w/ Full Payload

If I had the models painted and ready, I would have dropped a basilisk and the ML Sentinel for another Manticore, and dropped the Ogryns for more Bullgryns, but otherwise the list was effective. The Basilisks sucked, but the Tank Commanders definitely pulled their weight.

I also learned to watch out for Lychguard when the Silent King is in action. Apparently the Lychguard prevent the SK from being targeted by shooting attacks. This resulted in me ignoring the SK for the entire game and getting rid of all his troops (4x10-man Immortal Squads).

 Esmer wrote:


Other thoughts on effectively (as in: make sure the damn tin buckets stay dead) decimating Necron infantry?

Just looked at the datasheets - so you have to kill the whole squad in one turn, or it's like T1000 in Terminator 2? Maybe lure them into a iron foundry?

20 guys at T4, 1W, 4+ save to shift. That's a tough one. Looking down our wargear list for something S4, with decent AP and 1 wound, there ain't much. I can see why you want lots of hot shot volley guns. EDIT: actually, if you have to move AND can get in half range, I think you are killing more with overcharged plasma.

How about a couple of Wyverns? Blast so max shots, 2 would do 48 S4 re-rolling wounds, If you get a +1 to hit buff you would kill........10?

Bring 4 wyverns

I math out hte LRBT with punisher as doing about 10.5 with a full salvo from a tank commander with the tank ace +1 ap strat and a gatling turret punisher while reroll 1's is on. (I ignore heavy bolter effects and sponsons).

I note that you could also make a very interesting case for putting old grudges on one of the units of warriors, so that your basic infantry whoever they are get to reroll all their woudns (as do ALL your tanks nearby) at that target till it dies.

IF you are olnly rolling out a few hundred points of scions, is reroll 1's for the whole pile of them worth more than full woudn rerolls against that first 20 man you just want to kill?

 Esmer wrote:


Other thoughts on effectively (as in: make sure the damn tin buckets stay dead) decimating Necron infantry?

Not played them, but my guess would be whittle them down bit by bit till you think you can finish them off in one attack. Small guns first, big guns for the finisher.
It's great doing 10 kills with a Wyvern, but if 4 stand back up not so much, so wait till there's only 9 left and hopefully finish them off.

How many infantry are you guys taking as a minimum these days, and do you have a different number for "about right"

I feel 80-120 is the right range

The correct answer to that is more.
"Oh, Sensai, how many gaurds does it take?"
"More, young one, More."
"More than what?"
"More than ANYTHING."

Serious answer though, is 105.

Right then. I have finally caught up and read this whole thread. There are some very interesting ideas and insights (especially from MrMoustaffa, Pyroalchi and Inquisitor Lord Katherine). It beats watching youtube tactics vids where the guy just basically tells you whats on the datacard, but at least I can paint with a vid on, and from the sound of it, i'll be painting a lot of infantry now.

What I have taken from the discussion so far:
1-2 Manticores with full payload are auto include
Take at least 100 infantry. 120 would be great. 150 even better.
Make a 'melta hedge' (I love this phrase).
Have a plan.
Think of some fluff about why you gonna be out there killing so many spess mehreens.

Cheesy thought of the day:
If you go with a hoard, make your most expensive 3 models sentinels and bring them on from reserves on T5 for guaranteed 15 victory points from the 'While we stand, we fight' secondary.

 PaddyMick wrote:

If you go with a hoard, make your most expensive 3 models sentinels and bring them on from reserves on T5 for guaranteed 15 victory points from the 'While we stand, we fight' secondary.

That's gonna be a real challenge, as it would require you to not bring any other Guard vehicles whatsoever.

 PaddyMick wrote:
Right then. I have finally caught up and read this whole thread. There are some very interesting ideas and insights (especially from MrMoustaffa, Pyroalchi and Inquisitor Lord Katherine). It beats watching youtube tactics vids where the guy just basically tells you whats on the datacard, but at least I can paint with a vid on, and from the sound of it, i'll be painting a lot of infantry now.

What I have taken from the discussion so far:
1-2 Manticores with full payload are auto include
Take at least 100 infantry. 120 would be great. 150 even better.
Make a 'melta hedge' (I love this phrase).
Have a plan.
Think of some fluff about why you gonna be out there killing so many spess mehreens.

Cheesy thought of the day:
If you go with a hoard, make your most expensive 3 models sentinels and bring them on from reserves on T5 for guaranteed 15 victory points from the 'While we stand, we fight' secondary.

I'd say to try and cap the model count in the 120 range to limit the opponent's "thin their ranks" score. I'd also recommend limiting vehicles to limit the opponents "bring it down" score.

Thinking ~100 infantry, 4-6 vehicles (depending on # of wounds on the vehicles) limits you opponents ability to max out secondary objectives and forces a tough decision.

 Esmer wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:

If you go with a hoard, make your most expensive 3 models sentinels and bring them on from reserves on T5 for guaranteed 15 victory points from the 'While we stand, we fight' secondary.

That's gonna be a real challenge, as it would require you to not bring any other Guard vehicles whatsoever.

Yes that's right, apart from lots of other sentinels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Smotejob wrote:

I'd say to try and cap the model count in the 120 range to limit the opponent's "thin their ranks" score. I'd also recommend limiting vehicles to limit the opponents "bring it down" score.

Thinking ~100 infantry, 4-6 vehicles (depending on # of wounds on the vehicles) limits you opponents ability to max out secondary objectives and forces a tough decision.

You make a good point here. I sometimes forget to account for what the other guy will wanna do. I am still on basic strategy: level one.
From what I have read though, our strength is in numbers making those secondaries hard to keep from giving up. Can you give me an abbreviated version of a list you have in mind?

I have a fun catachan list that brings a little bit of everything.

Inquisitor coteaz
Straken, 2x company commander

30 conscripts
5x10 infantry with melta guns.

9 bullgryns, master of Ordnance, officer of the fleet, astropath, 2x command squads with plasma guns

2x manticore with hunter killers
Hws with mortars

Avenger strike fighter
Vulture with twin punisher

An all around fun fighting force. The most ill ever give up on bodies is 12, most on heavy is 12. I can give up 10 with my psyker characters, however, I tend to get 15 secondary points a game from psykers and my opponent has to chew threw a lot of bodyguards to get my characters

Lots of firepower, good board presence, good at contesting the middle of the board, plenty of punching power as well with straken + Priest.

Will this win tournaments? Nah. But it is pretty good all rounder list that can go toe to toe with most lists.

 Smotejob wrote:


I'd say to try and cap the model count in the 120 range to limit the opponent's "thin their ranks" score. I'd also recommend limiting vehicles to limit the opponents "bring it down" score.

Thinking ~100 infantry, 4-6 vehicles (depending on # of wounds on the vehicles) limits you opponents ability to max out secondary objectives and forces a tough decision.

Remember that each model with 10 or more wounds that is removed counts as 10 tallies for Thin Their Ranks (effectively one VP). So ~100 infantry and 4-6 vehicles will potentially give up more points to Thin Their Ranks than 120 Infantry would. Also, with a mixed army, your opponent can take both Thin Their Ranks and Bring It Down, because for some stupid reason they are in different Secondary Objective categories. So now you're looking at approximately 15 VPs available from Thin Their Ranks, and 15 VPs available from Bring It Down. In order to avoid this downfall, you really need to look at going either almost entirely all big Vehicles (giving up Bring it Down easily, but not TTR), or going almost all Infantry (giving up TTR, but not BID). Of course all vehicles is not effective right now in 9th, unless you get a lucky match-up with someone not running a ton of anti-tank or "anti-tank" firepower. This is why I'm seeing folks recommending max infantry, with only a couple vehicles - probably just 2 Full Payload Manticores and some supporting Sentinels, since they don't give as many points for Bring It Down, and only count as one model for Thin Their Ranks.

 PaddyMick wrote:

Cheesy thought of the day:
If you go with a hoard, make your most expensive 3 models sentinels and bring them on from reserves on T5 for guaranteed 15 victory points from the 'While we stand, we fight' secondary.

Lol, that sounds awesome. I have enough Infantry and Death Riders in my collection that this might actually be possible. But wasn't there a rule that reserves had to come till T3?

Nontheless in a slight modification of that cheesiness: one might fill a Valkyrie with 3 Astropaths and 2 Primaris Psykers, baiting he enemy to take Abhor the witch and then just fly out of the battlefield every turn, so that they can never be killed (also denying points for 5 squishy characters). If one has a real horde (just Infantry squads, Conscripts and Commanders) the Valkyrie + both Primaris might well be the three most expensive models, so you can take "while we stand"

Have to bring in reserves by turn 3 or they're dead.

Flyers however, do not have this issue to my knowledge

 Smotejob wrote:
An all around fun fighting force. .

Looks good. I've not really looked at Flyers yet, but there seems to be a lot of potential, more so than with many other armies, could they be one of the Guard's main assets? probably.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pyroalchi wrote:


Nontheless in a slight modification of that cheesiness: one might fill a Valkyrie with 3 Astropaths and 2 Primaris Psykers, baiting he enemy to take Abhor the witch and then just fly out of the battlefield every turn, so that they can never be killed (also denying points for 5 squishy characters). If one has a real horde (just Infantry squads, Conscripts and Commanders) the Valkyrie + both Primaris might well be the three most expensive models, so you can take "while we stand"

That is some tasty cheese right there! So no T5 reserves, nevermind :(

EDITED 'cos i am still getting used to using this forum and using quotes

 CommunistNapkin wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:


I'd say to try and cap the model count in the 120 range to limit the opponent's "thin their ranks" score. I'd also recommend limiting vehicles to limit the opponents "bring it down" score.

Thinking ~100 infantry, 4-6 vehicles (depending on # of wounds on the vehicles) limits you opponents ability to max out secondary objectives and forces a tough decision.

Remember that each model with 10 or more wounds that is removed counts as 10 tallies for Thin Their Ranks (effectively one VP). So ~100 infantry and 4-6 vehicles will potentially give up more points to Thin Their Ranks than 120 Infantry would. Also, with a mixed army, your opponent can take both Thin Their Ranks and Bring It Down, because for some stupid reason they are in different Secondary Objective categories. So now you're looking at approximately 15 VPs available from Thin Their Ranks, and 15 VPs available from Bring It Down. In order to avoid this downfall, you really need to look at going either almost entirely all big Vehicles (giving up Bring it Down easily, but not TTR), or going almost all Infantry (giving up TTR, but not BID). Of course all vehicles is not effective right now in 9th, unless you get a lucky match-up with someone not running a ton of anti-tank or "anti-tank" firepower. This is why I'm seeing folks recommending max infantry, with only a couple vehicles - probably just 2 Full Payload Manticores and some supporting Sentinels, since they don't give as many points for Bring It Down, and only count as one model for Thin Their Ranks.

Ah yes. You are right.

Still a fun list

Vehicles really are hit hard this edition for that rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My question... if we wanted to maximize damage turn 1, what units are we using? Manticores ofc. But what else?

So, I built a list that's a stealthy keepaway list, its made to look like it will be an easy win for the enemy while providing them with a single "escape valkyrie".
The 3 most expensive models are an inquisitor, yarrik, and the valkyrie that carries him, as well as the psyker wyrdvanes and aradia madellan. Leaving only 1 astropath on the board, vulnerable, for most of the game, as well as the engenseer, ministerium priest, and a single company commander. This list, you trash talk, you say stuff like "I don't think the marines you have are that hard to kill" or "yeah, we will see, I want to show that gaurd servitors are just as good as your eradicators" or "Yarrik is going to give me rerolls, so I don't need other officers" You basically want to appear a little insane to your opponent, in the hopes he thinks "wow, this guy must have had a real easy matchup to get to round 2 against me, I will just clean house with this gaurd moron who brought all the officers and all the psykers!" Cause its a game of valkyrie keep-away.

Result is, I hope, an enemy who takes abhor the witch, assassinate, suddenly only gets 5+12 or 17/30 (*and its not certain he pulls that off.) (so if he pulls off a perfect third, he gets at most 32 points. while its probably possible for your gaurd list to score 15 points just by not losing yarrik, inquisitor, and valkyrie (which keeps the two others offboard, a lot, and to finagle 10 points each from the other 2 secondaries. So you should be in the running?). If you keep your astropath offboard, he loses another 8 points and your list should function, more or less. Leaving him with at most 8 + 15 secondary to your 15+20.

I invite anyone here to look the list over and tell me what secondaries they predict a typical opponent will take? Am I wrong with this idea?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/794395.page#10999202

 CommunistNapkin wrote:

My question... if we wanted to maximize damage turn 1, what units are we using? Manticores ofc. But what else?

Squad of scout sentinels with lascannon and HK and Strike First, Strike Hard strategem maybe.

Can Scions deepstrike on turn 1? or do you need a Valkyrie to get up to that kind oif mischeif?. Data sheet looks like you can but there may be another rule I am missing.

Style choice: squad of 3 sentinel powerlifters. They have 'scout vehicle' so you can set up a T1 charge using 'Crush Em!' and get in 9 WS2+ S10 -2 D3 attacks on those eradicators. Don't forget to pop smoke in case you get shot next round.

Convince your opponent that the deathstrike time is neigh rule is rolled on a D20


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Dukeofstuff

That is seriously strong ripe stilton cheese my friend, love it. A good spoort would offer his opponent port and crackers with that one.

I got to say, if you are playign against marines in local tournament? Your cheese better stink.

Also .. note that scions can not deepstrike in on turn 1. Only valkyries and vendettas to my knowledge can forward deploy, let them out with gravchut rule, and they then fire. Its gaurd's answer to drop pod shenanigans, I guess.

To me, this points at the biggest challenge for me in 9th, the almost double taxation of thin their ranks and bring it down. It felt like there was a lot more flexibility about how you wanted to structure your army in 8th vs now, where you spend a lot of the thought of building your army not so much in fighting, but in denying secondary objectives.

Yah. They shoukld so.ehow link bring it down and thin ranks to power level.. Not model count.