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This is at band-aid fix at best, IG need a fundamental rewrite from the ground up to deal with how they give up secondaries so easily and their inability to effectively contest mid-board objectives.

 JNAProductions wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Who cares about armor saves? It's Auto-wounding. Taurox Primes now do more damage than LRs.

A Taurox Prime, before this dataslate, did the following damage at full wounds to a squad of 5 MEQ:

Autocannons: 1.78
Heavy Stubber: .33
Hot Shot Volleygun: 1.78
Storm Bolter: .22, .44 in Rapid Fire range
Battle Cannon: 1.30
Gatling Cannon: 2.22
Missile Launcher, Krak: 1.36

Not doing Frag because its the Gatling Cannon but worse. After the datalsate, this changes to:

Autocannons: 1.32
Heavy Stubber: .42
Hot Shot Volleygun: 1.67
Storm Bolter: .28, .56 in Rapid Fire range
Battle Cannon: .97
Gatling Cannon: 2.78
Missile Launcher, Krak: 1.07

What do these numbers mean?

Gatling improved by .56 damage per model.
Stubbers and Bolters improved by .03 per shot, for anywhere from .06 to .12 improvement overall.

However, the Volleyguns and Autocannons got worse by .11 and .46 respectively.

So, if you're going MEQ hunting, you'd want to take Volleyguns and the Gatling Cannon. If you close to 24", you used to do 4 damage, enough to kill two MEQ.
Now, you do 4.45 damage, enough to kill two MEQ, and maybe wound another. 11.25% improvement.

Funny enough, my math (can post if wanted on...Monday?) is indicating that two Gatling Cannon/Volley Gun Taurox Primes get 1.5 more Marine kills than a single Demolisher/Lascannon/Multi-Melta Tank Commander and about 1 more total wound than a Dakka Russ Commander (Punisher+3 Heavy Bolters).

If I recall my previous maths correctly, equivalent points in Infantry Squads (assuming FRFSRF order) with Plasma Gun and Lascannon do as much at 24" range, and significantly more within 12".

Two questions:
- do we have an option to deepstrike (non tempestus) infantry other then the dagger?

- are the special detachments still usable? The Emperors wrath artillery detachment sounds interesting with the extra AP.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
Two questions:
- do we have an option to deepstrike (non tempestus) infantry other then the dagger?

- are the special detachments still usable? The Emperors wrath artillery detachment sounds interesting with the extra AP.

I don't know about the first thing; my gut says no, but I could be remembering wrong, as it's been a hot minute since I even opened my AM codex. Valkyries can drop troops in the middle of their move (at a risk to said troops), but I don't think that's what you mean.

On the second thing, they axed those a while back. RIP relic Battle Cannon...

You can always use reserves

Don't know if anyone is interested, but I got bored tonight and, through helping some dude on a reddit post, created the following algorithm to calculate average damage with the new Hammer of the Emperor rule.

Guard Damage Calculation:

Variables (Modifyable based on abilities and Strategems):

Ballistic Skill “BS”: 2+ : 5/6, 3+ : 4/6 = 2/3, 4+ : ½, 5+ : 2/6 = 1/3, 6+ : 1/6

Wounds Chart “C”, consult the Wounds chart based on Strength of Weapon versus Toughness of target: 2+ : 5/6, 3+ : 4/6 = 2/3, 4+ : ½, 5+ : 2/6 = 1/3, 6+ : 1/6

Armor Piercing (AP): modifier of Weapon (Always negative)

Armor Save: (AS): Native to target

Saving Throw “S” = AS - AP: 6+ : 5/6, 5+ : 4/6 = 2/3, 4+ : ½, 3+ : 2/6 = 1/3, 2+ : 1/6

Where X is the number of shots:

Hits (H) = X*BS

Auto Wounds (A) = H/6

Wounds (W) = (H-A)*C + A

Failed Saves (F) = W*S

EDIT: Simplified equation with steps:

(EDIT2:Whoops, should be (AS-AP-1)/6. Ex: (3+ -(AP-2)-1)/6 = (3+2-1)/6 = (4/6)=2/3=5+ save

{[(X*BS)-(X*BS)/6]*C+(X*BS)/6}*[(AS-AP-1)/6]

[(X*BS)*(1-1/6)*C+(X*BS)/6]*([AS-AP-1)/6]

(X*BS)*[(5/6)*C+(1/6)]*[(AS-AP-1)/6]

[(X*BS)/6]*(5*C+1)*[(AS-AP-1)/6]

Final Equation: [(X*BS)*(5*C+1)*(AS-AP-1)]/36

 ZergSmasher wrote:
.

On the second thing, they axed those a while back. RIP relic Battle Cannon...

Wait...they nixed the special detachments? When did that happen (and where for that matter)? My friend and I just finished the first round of a match where I'm running an Emperor's Blade Assault Detachment...is that no longer allowed? What about tempestus drop detachment (which I took in my pre-dataslate list)?

DeadliestIdiot wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
.

On the second thing, they axed those a while back. RIP relic Battle Cannon...

Wait...they nixed the special detachments? When did that happen (and where for that matter)? My friend and I just finished the first round of a match where I'm running an Emperor's Blade Assault Detachment...is that no longer allowed? What about tempestus drop detachment (which I took in my pre-dataslate list)?

The GT mission pack that dropped around CA2020, if my Google-fu is harmonious.

DeadliestIdiot wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
.

On the second thing, they axed those a while back. RIP relic Battle Cannon...

Wait...they nixed the special detachments? When did that happen (and where for that matter)? My friend and I just finished the first round of a match where I'm running an Emperor's Blade Assault Detachment...is that no longer allowed? What about tempestus drop detachment (which I took in my pre-dataslate list)?

It's getting hard to keep up innit, lotsa stuff out there that crosses the last 2 editions. Reckon it don't matter unless you're playing in a tournament. you can use whatever rules you want. Specialist detachments were cool, hope they make a comeback sometime.

 PaddyMick wrote:

DeadliestIdiot wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
.

On the second thing, they axed those a while back. RIP relic Battle Cannon...

Wait...they nixed the special detachments? When did that happen (and where for that matter)? My friend and I just finished the first round of a match where I'm running an Emperor's Blade Assault Detachment...is that no longer allowed? What about tempestus drop detachment (which I took in my pre-dataslate list)?

It's getting hard to keep up innit, lotsa stuff out there that crosses the last 2 editions. Reckon it don't matter unless you're playing in a tournament. you can use whatever rules you want. Specialist detachments were cool, hope they make a comeback sometime.

Very true on all counts. It'd be nice to have those abilities all the time (which seems to have happened to some of the specialist detachments from what I've read when looking into this), but having the limitations of not being able to have everything makes it feel more special and flavorful.

Warzone Nachmund, Grand Tournament Pack, "muster armies":

The players cannot include Understrength units in their army, and their army cannot include any Specialist Detachments.

Narrative (Crusade): You cannot use this Requisition to give a CHARACTER a Relic or a Warlord Trait*, and you cannot use Stratagems that upgrade the unit to be part of a Specialist Detachment.

You can probably still use it in "Open Play" LOL.

Well boys, I have some good news and some bad news.

The bad news is that Scions do not benefit from Hammer of the Emperor.

The good news is that they do not prevent anything else from getting it.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/zNYDiBPKGflEhGZp.pdf

Arcanis161 wrote:
Well boys, I have some good news and some bad news.

The bad news is that Scions do not benefit from Hammer of the Emperor.

The good news is that they do not prevent anything else from getting it.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/zNYDiBPKGflEhGZp.pdf

This is indeed very mixed news...

"Let's make it so that one of the few units in the roster that can somewhat reliably make dents in armour doesn't benefit from Hammer of the Emperor - especially now when MEQ-armour stronger!"

*Shrug* Whatever.
IG are so far down the trashbin anyway that even a (on paper) massive buff such as HotE can be "hotpatched" onto the army over night without really changing anything.

"Lack of lethality" is just one of many reasons why they are F-tier, and Scions having access to HotE wouldn't change a thing.

This is what GW should have done with Hammer:

“If every unit in your army has the Astra Militarum keyword, then each time a <Regiment> or <Tempestus Regiment> model from your army makes a ranged attack, an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically wounds the target.”

It makes the army wide check go off the actual army wide keyword, like Adeptus Astartes. Then rewards the “core” choices of the army. Like the buff was intended to do. You also don’t need the additional wording for Advisors and Auxilia, cause they won’t break it anyway on the account of having the Astra Militarum keyword.

Now all 3 methods are viable to play:
- pure Guard
- pure Scion
- mixed

Would have been the best and easiest solution to the issue.

I agree but I would have extended the rule to aux units as well - ogryns need a buff and they just got comparatively worse.

Played with the new buffs for the first time yesterday so thought I'd report my experiences.

Game was 2K against a superfast aspect heavy eldar list with Karandras, the avatar, two fireprisms and loads of spiders/hawks/scorpions/bikes.

Terrain heavy table, hammer and anvil (mission 11 I think) with 4 midfield objectives.

My list was 4 artillery tanks, two Tanks commanders, a hellhound and a couple of scout walkers, 80 infantry, some supprt characters and a unit of 6 bulgryns.

Due to his speed and the midfield objectives I decided I needed to kill his stuff as quick as possible and then score later in the game. I setup with three layers of infantry protecting two hidden blocks of artillery and characters then the other tanks were dotted around in position to move out and attack but pretty well hidden.

He got first turn :-(

Fireprism moved out and managed to ace a russ before moving back out of LOS.
He picked up the two sentinels.
He massacred about 30 infantry in shooting (swooping hawks killed most of two squads on their own).
Karandras and the scorpions butchered another 20 and then tied up my last squad on one side.
The avatar sprinted forward 14"

My turn, most of his stuff was hidden other than Karandras and the scorpions in my lines and the avatar on the approach. If I didn't deal with them I was toast as they could tie up my tanks for victory.

I killed nearly all the scorpions with infantry fire and spare heavy bolters from the tanks.

I used the strat for extra hits on 6's on my demolisher and hit the avatar with that and a load of lascannons - to no appreciable effect - he used a couple of auto saves.

I killed most of the big hawk squad and ended up firing three artillary tanks into karandras just to get the 3 wounds onto him in the shooting phase so I could charge hm with my bulgryns.
I charged in, did the MW strat for 1 damage! He used lghtning fast to give me -1 to hit and I got 7 wounds through but he saved them all using a CP on the way. He hit back dealing 10MW and 7 normal wounds after my saves leaving a single gryn on one W.

We called the game there at the end of round 1. He had two massive melee threats in or near my lines, bikes and spiders nearby and held most of the objectives. On his turn he would kill or tie up most of my army. I had no way of scoring or surviving any of his attacks.

Thoughts: We were playing completely different games.
I was playing a traditional wargame where I had units that could do certain things well and other things badly, I had to negotiate terrain, he could save VS my weapons and I would have to slowly move up the board.

He was playing a game where he could move anywhere he wanted on the board, kill anything he wanted and then move behind cover so he couldn't be shot back.

We both agreed it as a bit pointless. If I had gone first it would certainly have been a better game as I could have shot his most dangerous infantry killers with my artillary and he would have been forced to redeploy his scorpions back a bit.
Even then his sheer killing power and movement abilities would have easily taken it.

Not really sure where they go with guard in the modern game.

Infantry squads used to be a bit of a pain to dig out (at least back in 5th). I think making them more resilient is probably the best way to go (purchasable carapace armor, go to ground order/ability, and adding back some sort of suppressing fire mechanic would go a long way towards that and be very fluffy, but this isn't the fixing guard thread, so I'll leave it there).

My own experience with guard since the dataslate is that they are definitely more capable of killing stuff, but still nowhere near enough to make up for the fragility of their infantry squads. I posted a summary of the first round of my battle in the thread on AoC vs HotE relative power level. But generally speaking, I rolled really well and my craftworld opponent rolled average. The infantry squad I pushed forward to complete two tempest of war secondaries (and promptly forgot to do one) got wiped (still got a chimera there, so hopefully I'll be able to correct my mistake when next we play... it's via TTS, so we saved our game). Either way, it's an improvement, but the bigger thing is it makes me feel like we're not being forgotten (unlike poor chaos demons)

Here is the list I am taking to a local tournament, what do you guys think?


++ Spearhead Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [54 PL, -3CP, 985pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

+ HQ +

Knight Commander Pask [14 PL, 280pts]: Lascannon, Track guards, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. 2 Multi-meltas

Tank Commander [12 PL, 240pts]: Lascannon, Track guards, Turret-mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon
. 2 Plasma Cannons

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [10 PL, 155pts]
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Flamer, Track guards, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

Manticore [9 PL, 155pts]: Full Payload, Heavy Bolter

Manticore [9 PL, 155pts]: Full Payload, Heavy Bolter

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [50 PL, 10CP, 1,015pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

+ Stratagems +

Tank Ace [-1CP]

Whiteshields [-1CP]

+ Agents of the Imperium +

Inquisitor [4 PL, 60pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Malleus - Warding Incantation, Ordo Malleus, Psyker

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 35pts]: Laspistol, Relic (Cadia): Tactica Pax Cadia, Warlord

Primaris Psyker [3 PL, 50pts]: Psychic Barrier

Tank Commander [12 PL, 245pts]: Heavy Bolter, Track guards, Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon
. 2 Heavy Bolters

+ Troops +

Conscripts [7 PL, 150pts]: Whiteshields
. 30x Conscript: 30x Lasgun

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Guardsman: 5x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Guardsman: 5x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Guardsman: 5x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 50pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Hot-shot Laspistol, Power sword

+ Elites +

Command Squad [2 PL, 65pts]
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

Command Squad [2 PL, 65pts]
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

Command Squad [2 PL, 65pts]
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Platoon Commander [2 PL, 25pts]: Laspistol

Platoon Commander [2 PL, 25pts]: Laspistol

++ Total: [104 PL, 7CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

 PaddyMick wrote:
I agree but I would have extended the rule to aux units as well - ogryns need a buff and they just got comparatively worse.

I don't disagree, but it doesn't help their melee. Only ranged. So sure, it'll make regular Ogryns shooting more reliable but no-one will still take them.

 CKO wrote:
Here is the list I am taking to a local tournament, what do you guys think?


++ Spearhead Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [54 PL, -3CP, 985pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

+ HQ +

Knight Commander Pask [14 PL, 280pts]: Lascannon, Track guards, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. 2 Multi-meltas

Tank Commander [12 PL, 240pts]: Lascannon, Track guards, Turret-mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon
. 2 Plasma Cannons

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [10 PL, 155pts]
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Flamer, Track guards, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

Manticore [9 PL, 155pts]: Full Payload, Heavy Bolter

Manticore [9 PL, 155pts]: Full Payload, Heavy Bolter

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [50 PL, 10CP, 1,015pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

+ Stratagems +

Tank Ace [-1CP]

Whiteshields [-1CP]

+ Agents of the Imperium +

Inquisitor [4 PL, 60pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Malleus - Warding Incantation, Ordo Malleus, Psyker

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 35pts]: Laspistol, Relic (Cadia): Tactica Pax Cadia, Warlord

Primaris Psyker [3 PL, 50pts]: Psychic Barrier

Tank Commander [12 PL, 245pts]: Heavy Bolter, Track guards, Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon
. 2 Heavy Bolters

+ Troops +

Conscripts [7 PL, 150pts]: Whiteshields
. 30x Conscript: 30x Lasgun

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Guardsman: 5x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Guardsman: 5x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Guardsman: 5x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 50pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Hot-shot Laspistol, Power sword

+ Elites +

Command Squad [2 PL, 65pts]
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

Command Squad [2 PL, 65pts]
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

Command Squad [2 PL, 65pts]
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Platoon Commander [2 PL, 25pts]: Laspistol

Platoon Commander [2 PL, 25pts]: Laspistol

++ Total: [104 PL, 7CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I took guard to a tournament twice in the last couple of months. Edit: and ended up somewhere in the lower middle bracket of the scores.
I'd say that you probably do better with sticking to just the spearhead and trying to max it out with demolishers and manticores.
One thing that served my well was giving my two tank comanders both the 'steel commander' tank ace trait in order to give 4 tank orders per turn.
Also, rerolling the number of shots on the tanks is a must, so either take catachan regiment or make a custom regiment with expert gunners and spotter details for 30" demolishers.

Infantry loses you battles IME.

Edit: I played a narrative game against some elite infantry units yesterday. I must say that I was impressed by the 6's autowound rule. Especially with the huge numbers of lasgun shots we can pour out this could be very good indeed. Three infantry squads without orders managed to wipe out 3 GK terminators in one round of shooting, that impressed me (and the GK player) to no end

What secondary missions do you guys take?

 CKO wrote:
What secondary missions do you guys take?

Shadow:
- RND: Most common.
- Raise the Banners: Depends on the mission and opponent.

Battlefield Supremacy:
- Engage on all Fronts: Most common.
- Stranglehold: Depends on the mission and opponent.

The 3rd mission is always the hardest, it's either:
- A mission secondary: Highly mission dependant.
- Psychic Interrogation: If I take psykers and depending on opponent.
- Warp Ritual: As above.
- Assassination/Bring it Down/Abhor the Witch: If I don't have any psykers and the mission secondary is too difficult. Not idea, but basically aim for anything that gives me at least 10VP.

Jarms48 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
What secondary missions do you guys take?

Shadow:
- RND: Most common.
- Raise the Banners: Depends on the mission and opponent.

Battlefield Supremacy:
- Engage on all Fronts: Most common.
- Stranglehold: Depends on the mission and opponent.

The 3rd mission is always the hardest, it's either:
- A mission secondary: Highly mission dependant.
- Psychic Interrogation: If I take psykers and depending on opponent.
- Warp Ritual: As above.
- Assassination/Bring it Down/Abhor the Witch: If I don't have any psykers and the mission secondary is too difficult. Not idea, but basically aim for anything that gives me at least 10VP.

Maybe I am misreading you, but the Mission Secondaries are gone with GT 2022. The Primary now has two parts: the objectives and the extra part (which looks like a Mission Secondary, but its part of the Primary).

You still have to take three Secondaries; two of which must be from the GT2022 Secondaries list. I'm with you on Engage and RND as we usually have plenty of squads (at least at the start). For the Emperor is OK if the enemy offers nothing juicy like Assassinate or Bring it Down to have a decent 3rd choice.

We tend to bleed VPs from any number of Secondaries (No Prisoners, Grind Them Down, Bring it Down, Assassinate), so its tough sledding out there.

With the changes from the dataslate, how are people feeling about our indirect options now (minus the obviously good Manticore)?

Someone in my new Gaming group pondered a list focusing on indirect fire, with Wyverns, 2 Full Payload Manticores, and Infantry Squads with Mortars behind a wall of Hellhounds. Thoughts?

Arcanis161 wrote:
With the changes from the dataslate, how are people feeling about our indirect options now (minus the obviously good Manticore)?

Someone in my new Gaming group pondered a list focusing on indirect fire, with Wyverns, 2 Full Payload Manticores, and Infantry Squads with Mortars behind a wall of Hellhounds. Thoughts?

Dunno. I think that kind of list will be good at killing things for one or two turns and then your opponent gets into your deployment zone and starts teraing through you in combat. Also it doesn't solve the problem of going out there and taking and holding objectives. Maybe you can fend them off and kill enough stuff so you can walk up and max out primary t3 onwards but I'm not so sure.

Our indirect fire didn't get a buff - it just didn't get nerfed. In fact it did get nerfed indirectly thanks to the buffs to power armour. I don't have the answers. I'm inclined towards lots of cheap armour like 150pt demolishers and armoured sentinels, but hesitate since won't people be taking high rend guns to deal with marines? Dunno. We are in a bad spot. I'm just gonna have some fun at my next tourney - I'm taking a goddam malcador infernus

 PaddyMick wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
With the changes from the dataslate, how are people feeling about our indirect options now (minus the obviously good Manticore)?

Someone in my new Gaming group pondered a list focusing on indirect fire, with Wyverns, 2 Full Payload Manticores, and Infantry Squads with Mortars behind a wall of Hellhounds. Thoughts?

Dunno. I think that kind of list will be good at killing things for one or two turns and then your opponent gets into your deployment zone and starts teraing through you in combat. Also it doesn't solve the problem of going out there and taking and holding objectives. Maybe you can fend them off and kill enough stuff so you can walk up and max out primary t3 onwards but I'm not so sure.

Our indirect fire didn't get a buff - it just didn't get nerfed. In fact it did get nerfed indirectly thanks to the buffs to power armour. I don't have the answers. I'm inclined towards lots of cheap armour like 150pt demolishers and armoured sentinels, but hesitate since won't people be taking high rend guns to deal with marines? Dunno. We are in a bad spot. I'm just gonna have some fun at my next tourney - I'm taking a goddam malcador infernus

Don't forget, HotE also applies to our indirect fire. Not sure if that overcomes the nerf against AoC opponents though.

Arcanis161 wrote:
With the changes from the dataslate, how are people feeling about our indirect options now (minus the obviously good Manticore)?

Someone in my new Gaming group pondered a list focusing on indirect fire, with Wyverns, 2 Full Payload Manticores, and Infantry Squads with Mortars behind a wall of Hellhounds. Thoughts?

Manticore is pretty bad now if you face a lot of armour of contempt factions.

The manticore doesn't have that low AP, what part makes it so bad against armour of contempt?

 ph34r wrote:
The manticore doesn't have that low AP, what part makes it so bad against armour of contempt?

I mean, against armour of contempt they'd be getting a 4+ and a 3+ in cover. A lot of the shots will be bouncing off in that case.