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This came up on the Orks Taktics Thread (which doesn't exist because we're not supposed to have massive army-specific threads -shh!)

The Bloodaxe trait allows units to fall back and then charge or Shoot, but not both.

My tactical plan was to fall back with my Battlewagons, shoot out thanks to open-topped, and then charge the battlewagons back in.

There was then some discrepancy as to whether this constituted shooting and charging.

As far as I can tell, if the unit inside the wagon is bloodaxe too (which they would be) then they would count as having fallen back this turn. They would shoot, and would not charge. The wagon would not shoot, but then would charge. Thus no single unit has shot and charged after falling back.

Warning - arguments stating that the unit inside the transport cannot be "affected" by their own rules will be taken to the drops and unceremoniously dropped to the squigs. There's been enough debate over this and I (and everyone I play against) is firmly in the "yes they can" camp, so let's assume that this is the stance which will be taken on that ruling.

I mean, if you're gonna ask "What's the answer if we ignore the rules", then why bother asking?

The unit inside, via the open topped rule, cannot shoot as the Battlewagon has fallen back. The permission for the Battlewagon to shoot via the Blood Axe trait is not passed on to the unit via the Open Topped rule, so the embarked unit cannot shot. The Blood Axe unit inside the Battlewagon cannot fall back and shoot as their trait doesn't affect them as they are embarked.

If you want to house rule it to allow them to shoot, fair enough, that's on you. But the rules as written do not allow them to shoot.

As a stated in the non existing thread. The battlewagon open topped rules states that the restrictions and modifiers of the battlewagon also apply to it's passengers.

Hence, they use the same restriction the bw does, so you piggyback on that rule/restriction. If the bw chooses to use the blood axe trait to charge, the restriction is set to charge. So the passengers are affected in the same way.

If the battlewagon advances, the unit advances, it's pretty much the same thing. If the bw acts in a certain way, the passengers do so as well.

But that's just my 2 cents, feel free to drop a penny.

Open Topped doesnt need to transfer anything for the units inside to benefit from Blood Axe trait, they already have the rule. Otherwise rokkit boyz in a trukk dont get deathskull rerolls either.

However i think the restriction would pass based on what the battlewagon chose. The embarked units are counted as falling back as well, transport opts to charge thus cannot fire, embarked units are given the same restriction.
Bloodaxe trait is designed to overrule the falling back part, not the opentopped part.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Open Topped doesnt need to transfer anything for the units inside to benefit from Blood Axe trait, they already have the rule. Otherwise rokkit boyz in a trukk dont get deathskull rerolls either.

Rokkit boyz in a trukk dont get deathskull rerolls .

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Open Topped doesnt need to transfer anything for the units inside to benefit from Blood Axe trait, they already have the rule. Otherwise rokkit boyz in a trukk dont get deathskull rerolls either.

Rokkit boyz in a trukk dont get deathskull rerolls .

And here we are with the issue I was trying to avoid with my opening statement.

Can anyone give rules citations - besides the hotly argued and impossible to conclusively win discussion about whether a unit embarked on an open-topped transport can make use of any of its own rules when shooting due to the word "affect" being thrown in with the word "normally", such that we ping-pong back and forth between "can't normally be Affected" and "Can't Normally be affected" with neither argument gaining headway because it is not sufficiently informative to give us an answer - which prevent the 2 units from performing separate actions (shoot or charge) as per the rules they have, when both are treated as falling back?

I don't want this to devolve into a different discussion - so please, can people assume for the sake of this thread that a unit which is permitted to shoot out of its transport does so with all the rules which it has as if it were the shooting phase. Just pretend that this is the rule, and then it doesn't come into this discussion. Assume it's a given. Just for this thread.

Consider this an official agreement that, in working on this assumption for the duration of this thread in isolation of all other threads, you are not admitting defeat and that your views on the RAW are correct and not being disputed here. But I would like something more to go on than "Affect!" "Normally!" "Affect!" Normally!

Working under the assumption that a unit utilizing the Open Topped rule to fire actually utilizes it's own abilities, there is no reason the Embarked unit cannot shoot during the Shooting phase, while the Transport doesn't shoot and instead Charges during the Charge phase. They are separate units and while things the Transport does may impact the Embarked unit, the reverse is not true.

 some bloke wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Open Topped doesnt need to transfer anything for the units inside to benefit from Blood Axe trait, they already have the rule. Otherwise rokkit boyz in a trukk dont get deathskull rerolls either.

Rokkit boyz in a trukk dont get deathskull rerolls .

And here we are with the issue I was trying to avoid with my opening statement.

Can anyone give rules citations - besides the hotly argued and impossible to conclusively win discussion about whether a unit embarked on an open-topped transport can make use of any of its own rules when shooting due to the word "affect" being thrown in with the word "normally", such that we ping-pong back and forth between "can't normally be Affected" and "Can't Normally be affected" with neither argument gaining headway because it is not sufficiently informative to give us an answer - which prevent the 2 units from performing separate actions (shoot or charge) as per the rules they have, when both are treated as falling back?

I don't want this to devolve into a different discussion - so please, can people assume for the sake of this thread that a unit which is permitted to shoot out of its transport does so with all the rules which it has as if it were the shooting phase. Just pretend that this is the rule, and then it doesn't come into this discussion. Assume it's a given. Just for this thread.

Consider this an official agreement that, in working on this assumption for the duration of this thread in isolation of all other threads, you are not admitting defeat and that your views on the RAW are correct and not being disputed here. But I would like something more to go on than "Affect!" "Normally!" "Affect!" Normally!

It's not for us to prove a negative, it's on you to prove they DO get the rerolls. The rules are permissive. Show me the rule that allows the embarked unit to benefit.

You asking "Can I do this if I ignore the rules" is a meaningless debate, because the rules don't allow you.

I've sent off a question to the GW rules team. Hopefully they will add clarifying language to the rules (perhaps a Rare Rules Interaction entry) detailing how to properly handle units attacking from Transports.

How about we treat this thread as a HWYPI instead of rehashing the poorly defined rules for Open-Topped and the like?

 alextroy wrote:
I've sent off a question to the GW rules team. Hopefully they will add clarifying language to the rules (perhaps a Rare Rules Interaction entry) detailing how to properly handle units attacking from Transports.

How about we treat this thread as a HWYPI instead of rehashing the poorly defined rules for Open-Topped and the like?

HIWPI: Follow the rules.

For those of us without the Ork Codex (eg: me), can someone please put the Blood Axe trait wording in here?

I'm looking at the Transport rules on page 210 in the Core book - "Unless specifically stated, abilities have no effect on units while they are embarked" - but it sounds very much like the trait overrides this, by way of specifically stating.
However, page 210 also states:
"For all rules purposes, units that are embarked within a TRANSPORT model that has made a Normal Move, Advanced, Fallen Back or Remained Stationary also count as having made the same kind of move that turn".
Shooting and charging are both noticeable by their absence here.

To me, this would hinge on whether there's anything in the trait to indicate how embarked units are treated, and it sounds like it doesn't. So going by the wording on page 210, I'd say that only those specific cases mentioned would count as the unit having performed them too, and other cases not mentioned in that list should be considered separate.
Or to sum up - the embarked unit counts as the unit shooting, not the vehicle itself.

A unit with this kultur gains the benefit of cover, even while they are not entirely on or in a terrain feature, if the enemy model making the attack is at least 18" away. In addition, units with this kultur can shoot or charge (but not both) even if they Fell Back in the same turn – if such a unit if embarked, it can only do so if the TRANSPORT that Fell Back also has this kulture.

It seems like it should work, but it doesn't because the Open Topped rule doesn't let them. It's typical GW poor rules writing.

Is Open Topped in the Ork Codex too, and/or on the Battlewagon datasheet? Because it's not in the core rules any more, unless I've missed it (and I did notice its absence on first read-through).
It's not mentioned on page 210 for Transports, or page 219 where the rest of the Vehicle rules are covered.

Going by the core rules, I think the permission to shoot is still there. Per page 210, an embarked unit shouldn't be able to shoot at all - "Units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked" - they have no permission to shoot even if the vehicle has the Open Topped keyword, because that keyword no longer does anything.
BUT, that kultur specifically gives the unit permission to shoot after falling back, with the caveat that the Transport must have the kultur too.

For this to break, there'd need to be an Open Topped rule for the Battlewagon that changes this position. Sorry to have to ask again, but we could use that wording in here, too.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

A unit with this kultur gains the benefit of cover, even while they are not entirely on or in a terrain feature, if the enemy model making the attack is at least 18" away. In addition, units with this kultur can shoot or charge (but not both) even if they Fell Back in the same turn – if such a unit if embarked, it can only do so if the TRANSPORT that Fell Back also has this kulture.

It seems like it should work, but it doesn't because the Open Topped rule doesn't let them. It's typical GW poor rules writing.

I disagree. Given the Kulture explicitly allows the embarked unit to fire, it overrides the general rule that abilities don't normally affect embarked units.

 Super Ready wrote:
Is Open Topped in the Ork Codex too, and/or on the Battlewagon datasheet? Because it's not in the core rules any more, unless I've missed it (and I did notice its absence on first read-through).
It's not mentioned on page 210 for Transports, or page 219 where the rest of the Vehicle rules are covered.

Going by the core rules, I think the permission to shoot is still there. Per page 210, an embarked unit shouldn't be able to shoot at all - "Units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked" - they have no permission to shoot even if the vehicle has the Open Topped keyword, because that keyword no longer does anything.
BUT, that kultur specifically gives the unit permission to shoot after falling back, with the caveat that the Transport must have the kultur too.

For this to break, there'd need to be an Open Topped rule for the Battlewagon that changes this position. Sorry to have to ask again, but we could use that wording in here, too.

When stratagems played on a transport (which can be modifiers) dont work on an embarked unit, clan kultur wont work either. So no, units embarked cannot be affected by anything, like the core rules say.

Open-Topped
Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers. for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn.
While this transport is within Engagement Range of any enemy units, embarked units cannot shoot, except with any Pistols they are equipped with.

Q: Do Stratagems used on a Transport affect units embarked
within that transport? For example, if I use More Dakka! on
a Battlewagon, do any units embarked inside benefit from it?
In addition, can you use Stratagems on units embarked within
a transport (e.g. can you use Showin’ Off on a Bad Moons
Infantry unit embarked within a Battlewagon)?
A: No to both

So following the rules that abilities can't affect models in the transports, we can put Kaptin Badrukk in a battle wagon and super charge his Da Rippa and avoid taking any mortal wounds from weapons ability. Nice!

Edit: Even better, just fill up the transport with loota's with Kustom mega-blasta's.

 p5freak wrote:
When stratagems played on a transport (which can be modifiers) dont work on an embarked unit, clan kultur wont work either. So no, units embarked cannot be affected by anything, like the core rules say.

The problem with that view is that the Blood Axe trait isn't a stratagem, it's a kultur. And kulturs/traits/doctrines, whatever they're called per army, aren't specifically mentioned under Transport rules at all.

On that basis, I'd say that as the kultur specifically calls out an effect for embarked units, it overrides the core rule that embarked units aren't affected by it.
Note that the FAQ you quoted also refers specifically to stratagems.

...I'll concur that it all points to this not being RAI, but doesn't do anything to change RAW.

Strategems and kulturs are completely different thing. The question is: is the kultur an ability, or an array of abilities? If the answer is yes, then the unit embarked in an open topped transport can't benefit from it. If the answer is no they absolutely benefit from it instead.

I expect this to be FAQed: to me the whole "abilties" thing means RAI that the unit embarked can't benefit from external auras (including possible different units that share the same transport), psychic buffs, or stratagems while it should be allowed to fire using all its own special rules and abilities. Like in 8th.

RAW own special abilities like re-rolling hits against vehicles for tankbustas are currently negated for units that fire from open topped transports. I expect this to be corrected.

 Blackie wrote:
The question is: is the kultur an ability, or an array of abilities? If the answer is yes, then the unit embarked in an open topped transport can't benefit from it. If the answer is no they absolutely benefit from it instead.

I'd have to disagree on this point because of the kultur specifically calling out embarked units - even if the kultur is considered an ability, they can still benefit from it because the kultur explicitly says they can. It's another case of Codex overriding the core rule.

I expect this to be FAQed: to me the whole "abilties" thing means RAI that the unit embarked can't benefit from external auras (including possible different units that share the same transport), psychic buffs, or stratagems while it should be allowed to fire using all its own special rules and abilities. Like in 8th.
RAW own special abilities like re-rolling hits against vehicles for tankbustas are currently negated for units that fire from open topped transports. I expect this to be corrected.

I do agree on this, but need to ask another question that I suspect may not have an answer.
The kultur starts with the wording "A unit with this kultur", and I've seen other such things as doctrines use similar wording like "A unit with this rule". Does this not mean that the unit actually has that rule, instead of just being affected by it from an external source? Meaning we should treat it as though the rule came from its own datasheet?

The ork codex states that kulturs are abilities, p124 first paragraph. They are added to the unit. So unfortunately the unit inside does not get a kultur.

The only kultur that might be be applied to embarked units, is the freeboota one, since it's a modifier.

The restriction is applied to the bw, and thus the unit inside follows the same restriction. The unit inside has no abilities or kultur.

Units in Transport do have a Kulture. It doesn’t disappear when they embark. They are not normally affected by the Kulture while embarked, but Blood Axe is a special case that states it does affect embarked units.

I say that the RAW allows the Blood Axe unit embarked in a Blood Axe Open Topped transport that Fell Back is allowed to shoot.

Sorry I read the codex entry, not the faq. In that case yes, you are correct. They do have a kultur.

And following that logic, since they both have the kultur, I think yes, they do can shoot and let the transport charge. Since the transport is the leader in this situation. The open topped rule states that restrictions are applied to the embarked unit, and not vice versa.

But that does raise a question about kulturs and unit abilities in transports in general. I hate gw and their wording. I think they mean that units can't be affected by hostile effects, not their own.

But I guess Space Marines don't have open topped rules...

Thankyou all for the replies - I would take this as conclusively being allowed, as the bloodaxe kulture specifically says so and the unit obviously can't charge whilst embarked - provided they are both bloodaxe.

I do hope that they FAQ that units are specifically not affected by rules from other units - and are affected by rules of their own. Infinite bomm squigs, entirely safe kustom mega blastas, inaccurate tankbustas - none of these should happen.

There's also whether goffs generate extra hits during a boarding action, or if deffskulls can reroll dice... it's all a bit nonsensical!

Is... is that a rules consensus?
With the exact rules quotes and reasoned arguments?
With no valid counterpoints?
Localised entirely within THIS forum?!