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Hi people. I was wondering if units in a creations of bile detachment could use the Veterans of the long war stratagem. I can't find an answer anywhere. Thank you.

 Khornate25 wrote:
Hi people. I was wondering if units in a creations of bile detachment could use the Veterans of the long war stratagem. I can't find an answer anywhere. Thank you.

The Veterans of the long war stratagem is used on HERETIC ASTARTES, are the units in a creations of bile detachment HERETIC ASTARTES?

If yes, then yes.

If no, then no.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Khornate25 wrote:
Hi people. I was wondering if units in a creations of bile detachment could use the Veterans of the long war stratagem. I can't find an answer anywhere. Thank you.

The Veterans of the long war stratagem is used on HERETIC ASTARTES, are the units in a creations of bile detachment HERETIC ASTARTES?

If yes, then yes.

If no, then no.

While this is true, I think he isn't asking if he can use the stratagem on the unit, rather if a CREATIONS OF BILE detachment will unlock the stratagems from Codex: Space Marines.

Sadly, No, you do not. In order to unlock the Stratagems, you need a "Chaos Space Marine Detachment". A "Chaos Space Marine Detachment" is, by definition, a detachment where all units have "one of the
following Faction keywords: <LEGION>, BLACK LEGION, WORD BEARERS, IRON WARRIORS , ALPHA LEGION, NIGHT LORDS, WORLD EATERS, EMPEROR’S CHILDREN, FALLEN or RED CORSAIRS".

Fabius Bile does not have "one of the following Faction keywords: <LEGION>, BLACK LEGION, WORD BEARERS, IRON WARRIORS , ALPHA LEGION, NIGHT LORDS, WORLD EATERS, EMPEROR’S CHILDREN, FALLEN or RED CORSAIRS", therefore the detachment is not a Chaos Space Marines Detachment, thus does not unlock the stratagems from the Chaos Space Marines codex.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Khornate25 wrote:
Hi people. I was wondering if units in a creations of bile detachment could use the Veterans of the long war stratagem. I can't find an answer anywhere. Thank you.

The Veterans of the long war stratagem is used on HERETIC ASTARTES, are the units in a creations of bile detachment HERETIC ASTARTES?

If yes, then yes.

If no, then no.

While this is true, I think he isn't asking if he can use the stratagem on the unit, rather if a CREATIONS OF BILE detachment will unlock the stratagems from Codex: Space Marines.

Sadly, No, you do not. In order to unlock the Stratagems, you need a "Chaos Space Marine Detachment". A "Chaos Space Marine Detachment" is, by definition, a detachment where all units have "one of the
following Faction keywords: <LEGION>, BLACK LEGION, WORD BEARERS, IRON WARRIORS , ALPHA LEGION, NIGHT LORDS, WORLD EATERS, EMPEROR’S CHILDREN, FALLEN or RED CORSAIRS".

Fabius Bile does not have "one of the following Faction keywords: <LEGION>, BLACK LEGION, WORD BEARERS, IRON WARRIORS , ALPHA LEGION, NIGHT LORDS, WORLD EATERS, EMPEROR’S CHILDREN, FALLEN or RED CORSAIRS", therefore the detachment is not a Chaos Space Marines Detachment, thus does not unlock the stratagems from the Chaos Space Marines codex.

Doesn't Bile have an exception to that rule, similar to Ghaz for Orks or Shadowsun for Tau?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Khornate25 wrote:
Hi people. I was wondering if units in a creations of bile detachment could use the Veterans of the long war stratagem. I can't find an answer anywhere. Thank you.

The Veterans of the long war stratagem is used on HERETIC ASTARTES, are the units in a creations of bile detachment HERETIC ASTARTES?

If yes, then yes.

If no, then no.

While this is true, I think he isn't asking if he can use the stratagem on the unit, rather if a CREATIONS OF BILE detachment will unlock the stratagems from Codex: Space Marines.

Sadly, No, you do not. In order to unlock the Stratagems, you need a "Chaos Space Marine Detachment". A "Chaos Space Marine Detachment" is, by definition, a detachment where all units have "one of the
following Faction keywords: <LEGION>, BLACK LEGION, WORD BEARERS, IRON WARRIORS , ALPHA LEGION, NIGHT LORDS, WORLD EATERS, EMPEROR’S CHILDREN, FALLEN or RED CORSAIRS".

Fabius Bile does not have "one of the following Faction keywords: <LEGION>, BLACK LEGION, WORD BEARERS, IRON WARRIORS , ALPHA LEGION, NIGHT LORDS, WORLD EATERS, EMPEROR’S CHILDREN, FALLEN or RED CORSAIRS", therefore the detachment is not a Chaos Space Marines Detachment, thus does not unlock the stratagems from the Chaos Space Marines codex.

Doesn't Bile have an exception to that rule, similar to Ghaz for Orks or Shadowsun for Tau?

If you mean something analogous to Grand Warboss, no he does not.

And even if he did, it still wouldn't fix anything. Grand Warboss regards detachment traits, not stratagems. Ork stratagems only require an ORK detachment, regardless of the subfactions. Fabius doesn't prevent the detachment from getting a trait, it simply doesn't meet the requirements to unlock the Codex: Chaos Space Marines stratagems, in the same way a THOUSAND SONS detachment doesn't meet the requirements.

hello BaconCatBug, i have read this on the end of the definition of chaos space marines detachement
FABIUS BILE can be included in a Detachment without preventing it from being a Chaos Space Marine Detachment

i think you unlock the usage of stratagems

What are the rules for creating a Creations of Bile detachment? Are you told your <<Legion>> is Creations of Bile?

BCB is technically right. Fabius (and Cypher, for that matter) does not have the requisite keywords to be called a "Chaos Space Marine Unit", in much the same way that Bloodletters or Daemonettes don't even though they're all in the same codex.

 Cheex wrote:
BCB is technically right. Fabius (and Cypher, for that matter) does not have the requisite keywords to be called a "Chaos Space Marine Unit", in much the same way that Bloodletters or Daemonettes don't even though they're all in the same codex.

But in the Csm faq they add:

Page 162 – Chaos Space Marine UnitsAdd the following at the end of the first paragraph:‘Fabius Bile can be included in a Detachment without preventing it from being a Chaos Space Marine Detachment.

so bile don't break the detachement ?

Yeah Bacon is just wrong here, I don't think he actually read the updated rules. The rules page for Creations of Bile is 100% clear that they are a <LEGION> and therefore a CSM detachment:

In this section you’ll find rules for Battle-forged armies that include Chaos Space
Marine Detachments taken from the followers of Fabius Bile.

And then:

If Fabius Bile is your Warlord, units from
your army can replace their <LEGION>
keyword with CREATIONS OF BILE. Note
that you cannot replace the <LEGION>
keyword with CREATIONS OF BILE
unless Fabius Bile is your Warlord.

Ergo, <Creations of Bile> Detachments are CSM Detachments and therefore unlock the CSM 2.0 Codex stratagems.

You can also take Bile in another CSM Detachment and that works fine too because of the specific exclusion in CSM 2.0 that states that he doesn't stop a detachment from getting traits.

The old Fabius Bile character sheet in CSM 2.0 did technically lack the necessary <LEGION> Keyword, but the new datasheet has CREATIONS OF BILE, which is now a <LEGION>. Though even then the Shadowy Allies rule makes clear they didn't intended Bile to stop something from being a CSM detachment because if he did that rule literally wouldn't make any sense - it says that he doesn't stop a CSM detachment from getting a Legion Trait which only makes sense if he also doesn't stop a detachment from being a CSM detachment in the first place, since it's impossible for a non-CSM Detachment to get a Legion Trait. But again, they fixed that anyway in War of the Spider, so it's not an issue.

Well, there we go. Creations of Bile are a Chaos Space Marines detachment. You get CSM Stratagems. Unless CoB are considered to be Renegades, they can use Veterans of the Long War.

It doesn't say anything about them being renegades in the book, ergo they are not.

Also while we'e on the topic of weird things about this faction, Fabius Bile does not get the Legion Trait for Creations of Bile, even though he has the keyword.

Note that, as per the Shadowy Allies rule
in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Fabius
Bile himself – as well as FALLEN units
– cannot benefit from the Experimental
Enhancements Legion Trait.

Well he’s not gonna experiment on himself now, is he... and Fallen aren’t gonna want him meddling with them either. Seems fluffy to me.

Also seems that you’re fine to use CSM Strats with this detachment.

daborgn wrote:

 Cheex wrote:
BCB is technically right. Fabius (and Cypher, for that matter) does not have the requisite keywords to be called a "Chaos Space Marine Unit", in much the same way that Bloodletters or Daemonettes don't even though they're all in the same codex.

But in the Csm faq they add:

Page 162 – Chaos Space Marine UnitsAdd the following at the end of the first paragraph:‘Fabius Bile can be included in a Detachment without preventing it from being a Chaos Space Marine Detachment.

so bile don't break the detachement ?

A fair point. This was a mistake on my part.

CREATIONS OF BILE is a legal replacement for <<LEGION>>, and Fabius doesn't prevent the detachment from being a CSM Detachment, so they unlock the stratagems!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah Bacon is just wrong here, I don't think he actually read the updated rules. The rules page for Creations of Bile is 100% clear that they are a <LEGION> and therefore a CSM detachment:

In this section you’ll find rules for Battle-forged armies that include Chaos Space
Marine Detachments taken from the followers of Fabius Bile.

And then:

If Fabius Bile is your Warlord, units from
your army can replace their <LEGION>
keyword with CREATIONS OF BILE. Note
that you cannot replace the <LEGION>
keyword with CREATIONS OF BILE
unless Fabius Bile is your Warlord.

Ergo, <Creations of Bile> Detachments are CSM Detachments and therefore unlock the CSM 2.0 Codex stratagems.

You can also take Bile in another CSM Detachment and that works fine too because of the specific exclusion in CSM 2.0 that states that he doesn't stop a detachment from getting traits.

The old Fabius Bile character sheet in CSM 2.0 did technically lack the necessary <LEGION> Keyword, but the new datasheet has CREATIONS OF BILE, which is now a <LEGION>. Though even then the Shadowy Allies rule makes clear they didn't intended Bile to stop something from being a CSM detachment because if he did that rule literally wouldn't make any sense - it says that he doesn't stop a CSM detachment from getting a Legion Trait which only makes sense if he also doesn't stop a detachment from being a CSM detachment in the first place, since it's impossible for a non-CSM Detachment to get a Legion Trait. But again, they fixed that anyway in War of the Spider, so it's not an issue.

Actually, I was 100% correct, were it not for the errata that prevents FABIUS BILE from stopping it being a Chaos Space Marines detachment. The CREATIONS OF BILE keyword Fabius Bile has on his datasheet doesn't meet the requirements for being a CSM Detachment, which is why the rule is there to stop Fabius breaking that.

So, in summary: It should not be able to unlock the stratagems, but there is errata to allow it to unlock the stratagems.

Bile's CREATIONS OF BILE keyword is a <LEGION> per War of the Spider, and the exemption isn't an "errata," it's right there in the codex. But it certainly isn't worth arguing about, since everyone now agrees on the actual answer to the question.

daborgn wrote:

 Cheex wrote:
BCB is technically right. Fabius (and Cypher, for that matter) does not have the requisite keywords to be called a "Chaos Space Marine Unit", in much the same way that Bloodletters or Daemonettes don't even though they're all in the same codex.

But in the Csm faq they add:

Page 162 – Chaos Space Marine UnitsAdd the following at the end of the first paragraph:‘Fabius Bile can be included in a Detachment without preventing it from being a Chaos Space Marine Detachment.

so bile don't break the detachement ?

Ah, good point. Completely skipped that in the FAQ.