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I was just wondering: How different would the lists be?

10 Vanguard Vets all with Jump Packs and TH/SS runs about 14PL or 380 points 10 Vanguard Vets with bp and chainsword are still 14PL.
15 assault marines with 4/6 plasma and 3 eviscerators in two/three squads are 14/15 PL
10 Intercessors runs about 10PL and 200.
6 Aggressors about 12 or 270.
6 Inceptors swing 60 points and zero PL between dakka and plasma. And I'm not even sure I'd automatically go plasma. Probably but its not guaranteed.
Devastator squad with 4 heavies and 10 guys is 8PL. 5 Hellblasters with 5 heavies and 10 wounds is 9.
The old marines with the expensive options suddenly get interesting. Its also interesting not all zero-to-few option Primaris have a similar ratio 20:1 ratio.
A Thunderfire Cannon with Techmarine Gunner is 4. A techmarine is 4.

Primaris don't have a whole lot of options, so their PL is a fairly close match to their points. I think 1 PL is supposed to be about 20 points?

For other armies, PL vs points may vary quite a bit depending on the equipment chosen, since the PL is calculated on the "average" of how the troops could be calculated.

Back in 8E, my son and I did a couple games just using 50 PL (Primaris vs. Chaos, Tau vs. Necron). Both games were pretty close.

I pretty much only use power level if Im SPECIFICALLY going in not giving a gak about what the squads are equipped with.

At this point, I've got a pretty long-spanning model collection. It's been through a whole hell of a lot of different metas, and at this point I have several lists that have a wild number of different weapons.

To take my GSC as an example:

I have:
-2 Acolytes with demo charges
-10 acolytes with hand flamers
-5 metamorphs with claws
-20-ish acolytes with knives and claws
-4 heavy rock saws
-1 heavy rock cutter
-2 heavy drills

Same thing with the Neophytes, i've got webbers I've got GL's I've got Flamers I've got shotguns ive got the cool banner that's never worth 10pts I've got seismics I've got lasers I've got melee equipment armed sergeants, you get the gist.

If I'm playing PL, I'm purposefully going to be bringing squads with a variety of stuff, and that aren't particularly optimized. If I bring a squad that spams saws (the optimal loadout) I'll bring a squad with demo charges (a very suboptimal loadout) and I'll purposefully try to get everything that isn't currently optimal some table time since it's been chilling in my cabinet since early 8th or 7th when it was last decent.

and usually, i'll be trying to construct my list for a game setup that's intended to create a cinematic game rather than an optimal strategy to win.

I played against a dude a little while ago who specifically wanted to bring EVERY named character from Cadia to the table, plus the new commissar lady, plus Nork Deddog. The optimal strategy for GSC would be to assassinate the characters with kelermorphs, Sanctuses, patriarchs etc and alpha strike out the tanks with mining lasers and ridgerunner HMLs, and deliver all my melee strength all at once to hopefully overwhelm the line of bullgryns and kill as many as possible before they got to attack.

That's no fun. Instead, we decided we'd do dawn of war deployment, units on my side that got destroyed would come back from my board edge, I took primuses, maguses, brood brother commanders, locuses, and other characters whod be fun for getting into character duels with IG special characters, and loaded up on ridiculous sergeant gear and crazy units, and it was a great time.

Plenty times. In practice it's been just as balanced/unbalanced. Units what you see change but　both are pure junk　if you are looking for balanced game

I have done power levels with my nephews when they were first getting into the game. It was easier for them to make a quick army of models they liked and go from there.

My only thing about power levels and toning down the amount of "cheese" that can come from it is this - if your playing power level you should also play wysiwyg. If the only time you would take combi plasma on 10 chaos terminators is when your playing power level that says a lot about what your doing. Just my feelings on it :p.

Breton wrote:
I was just wondering: How different would the lists be?

10 Vanguard Vets all with Jump Packs and TH/SS runs about 14PL or 380 points 10 Vanguard Vets with bp and chainsword are still 14PL.
15 assault marines with 4/6 plasma and 3 eviscerators in two/three squads are 14/15 PL
10 Intercessors runs about 10PL and 200.
6 Aggressors about 12 or 270.
6 Inceptors swing 60 points and zero PL between dakka and plasma. And I'm not even sure I'd automatically go plasma. Probably but its not guaranteed.
Devastator squad with 4 heavies and 10 guys is 8PL. 5 Hellblasters with 5 heavies and 10 wounds is 9.
The old marines with the expensive options suddenly get interesting. Its also interesting not all zero-to-few option Primaris have a similar ratio 20:1 ratio.
A Thunderfire Cannon with Techmarine Gunner is 4. A techmarine is 4.

We're doing it right now for Crusade, because that's how Crusade is written.

It's a little awkward that my Strike Squad is apparently more expensive than an Intercessor squad for being half as survivable and despite having a force weapon still somehow being worse in melee [and also worse at shooting despite having more bullets, but that's more of a specific anti-marine condition since GK Storm Bolters would outperform Bolt Rifles against like cultists or daemons]

I actually played in a whole event that used PL one time. It was fun because every tank got to have a H-K missile and pintle-mounted gun.

PL & WYSIWYG are best when used together

Well considering I always play WYSIWYG, and predominantly play with PL, my lists don't change.

The biggest thing that determines how my list changes is the actual size of the game (in either points or PL) and trying to fit in units around those caps. But, considering I don't magnetise, don't really have many spare models that are painted in squad appropriate colour schemes (I'm not moving the flamers from red company into a blue company squad!), my lists don't really change.

I hate to say the whole "you're playing it wrong" thing, but if there's anything I'd say it on (barring the obvious "you should play to enjoy yourself, never as a chore"), it's that PL *should* always be played with WYSIWYG, unless you're explicitly playing PL to break it.

I agree with the others who have said PL works well with WYSIWYG.

We're starting off on 9th with Crusade mode which is designed to play with PL rather than points.

Still struck by how some factions get really stitched up by it; I ran 25 PL of Necrons for our Combat Patrol game over the weekend which came to 475, and my friend's 25 PL of AdMech came to about 530, which is more than 10%.

Still, as a tool for quickly putting together a game with folks who don't want to spend hours tweaking (which is a good chunk of my pals) I think it's fine? Theoretically I think I prefer trying to build a 25 or 50 PL army over a 500 or 1000 one, if only they could tighten up the balance.

tneva82 wrote:
Units what you see change

That’s what I’m getting at... I’m wondering what flips from good to bad or vice versa. Do PL 7 tacs now surpass PL 10 Intercessors? Do PL 10 Infiltrators with all the bells and Helix Adepts?

i haven't a great deal of experience, but i would assume that units that are most affected are the ones that have more points taken up by their weapon options than those that dont.

take admech, for example (only because i have been listbuilding with admech recently.) A squad of Fulgerite electro-priests has no add on options, so its fairly easy to do the math on them and give them a POW rating in line with their points cost. However, a 5 man skitarii ranger squad (with POW 3) can have a cost between 45 (5 men, no frills) and 80 (with 2 Arquebus, power sword and arc pistol on the alpha, and a Omnispex), but still have the same POW rating. Now, i dont think either of those two set ups is very common in "real" play, but they are legal, and its notable that expanding the squad to 10 men only adds another 2 POW to the squad, so that base 3 POW must include most of the damage potential for the squads heavy weapons in it.

however, the base point remains that two squads, both with the same POW value, can be nearly half/double the value of the other. i would imagine squads that have expensive wargear options would be over-valued without them, buy quite possibly under-valued with them.

a completely different thing to consider is that, if the POW system is intended for quick, "throw it out thier" lists with only rough balance, then they might adjust the POW levels for "tricky" units. What i mean is that thier are some units who have special abilities and such that be very effective in the right hands and/or in specially crafted lists, but not so effective outside of that, and those might have a high points value to reflect their effectives in competitive play but a lower PL value due to how "hard" they are to use correctly. I cant offer any examples of this but it might well be a factor.


for what its worth, while building my list at several points values, i found that the POW levels stayed fairly close to the points and rose and fell by simmilar magnitudes ie the 1,000 point list had a POW about twice that of the 500 point list. it seems any efficiencies and inefficiencies mostly balance out over the full list. As a tool for quickly getting two roughly comparable lists together, it seems fit for purpose.

I played mostly with power level at the start of 8th, and will do so again with 9th.

People think that the player will just take the strongest stuff possible, but that only ever happened in our games once. (Dude lost because plasma everything by proxy doesn't work the way you think points make it seem)

See, if you spend points on say, a lascannon, but you end up on a cities of death board, you've wasted points on a gun that won't be able to hit as long distance as it would have on a more open table. Take melts and plasma, but end up getting thing a horde army of nids or guard? Wasted points. Flamers against a wraith construct list or mechanized space marines? Points wasted.

As long as your armies stick with WYSIWYG, most people end up taking a broad variety of units and loadouts to handle the local meta. Will some things end up not being useful? Sure. But if you aren't spending resources to add those things to the list, they don't hurt as bad.

Even if units are fully loaded, PL just changes which units are “OP” compared to other fully loaded units. The assumption that points are more accurate is false. They are more granular, making them more precise, but not necessarily more accurate.

Yes, units without bells and whistles are going to be less *efficient* in a PL match. That’s not a flaw in the system, but instead a strategic flaw in list building. I can make sub-optimal builds with points, too. That’s not a flaw with points, but a flaw in my strategy at the list building stage.

Just like a “competitive” game played with points tries to maximize effect per point investment, so too would a competitive game with PL try to maximize effect per PL investment.

All that changes is which units become the “best” in that environment.

Anecdotally, my Tau lists that I’ve been building between 500 and 1500 points have all been within 2 PL of a direct conversion rate of 20 points. As I’m trying to build efficiently with points, yes, having some more free upgrades would increase my efficiency, but the reason I’m *not* already taking those upgrades is because they aren’t valuable enough to spend points on. So how much value would I actually be adding with a handful of, albeit “free”, otherwise nearly worthless upgrades?

I think both methods of building lists are comparably accurate in terms of measuring a list’s potential.

the main thing is the entirely different approach to the game that Pts have vs PL.

PL isnt for people that actively want to break the game. If you are actively doing that, there is a perfectly acceptable calculation method for it.

 greatbigtree wrote:

Anecdotally, my Tau lists that I’ve been building between 500 and 1500 points have all been within 2 PL of a direct conversion rate of 20 points. As I’m trying to build efficiently with points, yes, having some more free upgrades would increase my efficiency, but the reason I’m *not* already taking those upgrades is because they aren’t valuable enough to spend points on. So how much value would I actually be adding with a handful of, albeit “free”, otherwise nearly worthless upgrades?

I think both methods of building lists are comparably accurate in terms of measuring a list’s potential.

yhea, that seem to gel with my actual list building as well. building a functional, balanced list tends to produce PL that are consistent with the equivalent points for that list. Im sure if you wrote a tailored list you could get some intresting diversion or exteme high/low points for a given PL (or conversely, extermely high/low PL for a given points), but that starts to feel more like a exercise in abstract list-building that practical min/maxing.

i aggree the the basic point that "high points cost" doesnt automatically equal "better". the example skitarii squad i gave was literally a rundown of the most expensive i could make it, to illustrate the point in extremis, and i said it wasn't a "normal" squad in terms of what people actually play. you can give the Alpha a power sword but is not really any good with it and if hes using it it your in deep trouble anyway, same with the pistol, your really better sticking with his default rifle which he can use with the other riflemen in his squad. the onmispex is one of those "situational" upgrades you mention, that really depends on the map terrain and enemy (as some subfactions have "counts as being in cover over range X" abilites that i the Omni can counter), but is otherwise not that great. since its free i might as well take it, but i dont feel like im "cheating" for having done so.

Power level is designed for newer players entering the hobby and just want some quick games. Points cost is and always will be the way the game was meant to be played for veteran players.

@ Racer:

There’s no wrong way to play PL. I’ve played points very casually, and I’d love to try competitive PL. All that would do is develop a different meta.

Crusaderobr wrote:Power level is designed for newer players entering the hobby and just want some quick games. Points cost is and always will be the way the game was meant to be played for veteran players.

I think I've been around long enough to call myself a veteran player. I resent any claims that points is the way it's "meant" to be played for people like me.

There is no "meant to" for anything. People will like what they like, and should be encouraged to enjoy what they are attracted to. I absolutely agree that PL is very good for someone newer to the hobby, but if they want to stay using PL for their entire duration, that's to be encouraged.

I honestly don't understand the dislike some people have simply of PL existing. If someone doesn't like it, just don't use it?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


I honestly don't understand the dislike some people have simply of PL existing. If someone doesn't like it, just don't use it?

Those kind of people get off on telling others NO and must berate and whine about it since it "threatens" them. somehow, I guess?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Crusaderobr wrote:Power level is designed for newer players entering the hobby and just want some quick games. Points cost is and always will be the way the game was meant to be played for veteran players.

I think I've been around long enough to call myself a veteran player. I resent any claims that points is the way it's "meant" to be played for people like me.

There is no "meant to" for anything. People will like what they like, and should be encouraged to enjoy what they are attracted to. I absolutely agree that PL is very good for someone newer to the hobby, but if they want to stay using PL for their entire duration, that's to be encouraged.

I honestly don't understand the dislike some people have simply of PL existing. If someone doesn't like it, just don't use it?

If you want to play the intro version of the game go for it, I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. Why Veteran players would choose to do so is beyond me, especially when the points system is so simple and only requires basic math.


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Racerguy180 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


I honestly don't understand the dislike some people have simply of PL existing. If someone doesn't like it, just don't use it?

Those kind of people get off on telling others NO and must berate and whine about it since it "threatens" them. somehow, I guess?

Not really a dislike, just more of a " what was the point GW? " I guess some people don't have basic math skills when they get into 40k? I guess they got some complaints from uneducated people and decided here you go, just throw your squads into an army and your good, no math required now! ??? /shrug

 Crusaderobr wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Crusaderobr wrote:Power level is designed for newer players entering the hobby and just want some quick games. Points cost is and always will be the way the game was meant to be played for veteran players.

I think I've been around long enough to call myself a veteran player. I resent any claims that points is the way it's "meant" to be played for people like me.

There is no "meant to" for anything. People will like what they like, and should be encouraged to enjoy what they are attracted to. I absolutely agree that PL is very good for someone newer to the hobby, but if they want to stay using PL for their entire duration, that's to be encouraged.

I honestly don't understand the dislike some people have simply of PL existing. If someone doesn't like it, just don't use it?

If you want to play the intro version of the game go for it, I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. Why Veteran players would choose to do so is beyond me, especially when the points system is so simple and only requires basic math.

for someone who's saying there is nothing wrong with it, you sure are using wording that belies your intentions.

You really have to be able to trust your fellow gamers to use PLs. Under the old PLs we had a Salamanders player bring what we calculated was 1300 points of stuff in a 50PL game.

We don't play with that guy anymore.

Hey all, I just went through and delete a whole bunch of posts, lets try and keep this thread on track and on the topic of Power Level list building, don't respond to bait please, thanks!

All that your posting has proven is that you really, really need to chill out. it's just a fething game.

You're the one to resort to name calling, so maybe the foundation of your argument is more tenuous than you would like to think.

It always amazes me that people that are afraid of PL fall back on schoolyard pejoratives. can you show me on where on this primaris funko pop where the bad PL man touched you?

If you like points, good
If you like PL, good
why the feth would you have such an issue with how others play the game.

The best part is how this started with "I have no problem with (X), but then here are all the problems with (X)"

 CEO Kasen wrote:
You really have to be able to trust your fellow gamers to use PLs. Under the old PLs we had a Salamanders player bring what we calculated was 1300 points of stuff in a 50PL game.

We don't play with that guy anymore.

Totally understandable! I don't think it's necessarily "trust", but rather just common decency and shared expectations. If you're going in and you're all trying to break it with the most powerful stuff, by all means, go for it! But as you've described, when you have someone coming into a more relaxed affair with a very... skewed... list, then the real thing at fault I'd say is the lack of shared goals and expectation, most often at the hands of the player taking WAY too much.


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Racerguy180 wrote:
If you like points, good
If you like PL, good
why the feth would you have such an issue with how others play the game.

QFT.

If *you* personally don't like something, that's okay! Just don't insult people who do. There's literally no need for it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
If you like points, good
If you like PL, good
why the feth would you have such an issue with how others play the game.

QFT.

If *you* personally don't like something, that's okay! Just don't insult people who do. There's literally no need for it.

Except that GW are turning pts into PL so it needs to be heard that it is not what everyone wants or likes PL, it is a gak system only eclipsed in level of gak by CA20, it heightens need for pre-game discussion of strong each army is based on how much you take advantage of the lack of a system for balancing wargear loadouts. I look forward to not paying full pts cost for Immortals in Crusade though, 18 pts/model is a bit steep. So really PL players just need to pipe down about how much they love having gak for balance and hopefully, GW will get back to the job of trying to balance the game and not think that everyone is happy with what we have. Remember, imbalancing the game is easy, just add D6*100 pts to each army before the game (rolled separately) and roll a D20 and pick the letter in the alphabet corresponding to what you rolled, models starting with that name are 1 pt cheaper, unless their cost is 50 or more pts in which case they become 20 pts cheaper. But who has the power to create a well-balanced game? GW certainly has it easier than any others, between employees, working on it and having lots of volunteer playtesters and all that.

why is having a discussion about the game before hand so disgusting to some people's view of the game?

o wait, I know why....

PL is fine as long as you enforce WYSIWYG a bit.
It's not like a unit of vanguard veterans with free TH/SS is suddenly gamebreaking.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I played mostly with power level at the start of 8th, and will do so again with 9th.

People think that the player will just take the strongest stuff possible, but that only ever happened in our games once. (Dude lost because plasma everything by proxy doesn't work the way you think points make it seem)

See, if you spend points on say, a lascannon, but you end up on a cities of death board, you've wasted points on a gun that won't be able to hit as long distance as it would have on a more open table. Take melts and plasma, but end up getting thing a horde army of nids or guard? Wasted points. Flamers against a wraith construct list or mechanized space marines? Points wasted.

As long as your armies stick with WYSIWYG, most people end up taking a broad variety of units and loadouts to handle the local meta. Will some things end up not being useful? Sure. But if you aren't spending resources to add those things to the list, they don't hurt as bad.

Yeah I agree 10 TH/SS Vanguard vets for the same cost as 10 BP-CCW ones is an obvious thing, but what about 7 PL Tacs vs 10 PL Intercessors? 7PL Tacs with special, heavy and a 3PL apothecary vs 10 PL intercessors?


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If you want to play the intro version of the game go for it, I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. Why Veteran players would choose to do so is beyond me, especially when the points system is so simple and only requires basic math.

There’s a theory that power level is the gateway to side boards among other things. But that wasn’t really the question I was asking. I was asking which units gain and which units lost when building lists using power level.