Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
It's not treated as a PSYKER when you select it.

Good. Since selecting a PSYKER is a mandatory part of denying a psychic actions, RAW non-psykers can never deny them.

including resolving a psychic action.

Wrong. Actual rule:
Sometimes a rule will allow a model that is not a PSYKER to attempt to manifest or deny a psychic power. When resolving such abilities, it does so exactly as if it were a PSYKER, and is affected by rules that modify Psychic tests or Deny the Witch tests, but it is not a PSYKER for any other rules purposes.

Absolutely no permission to count as a psyker during psychic actions.

Good lord. People. Leave a HIWPI alone if you disagree. You’re just wasting threadspace. I don’t know how that could be more clear but two rebuttals aiiieeee. Just move along!

JohnnyHell - the problem is SunnySideUp appears to be treating his interpretation as RAW, not HIWPI.

My take:

"Sometimes a rule will allow a model that is not a PSYKER to attempt to manifest or deny a psychic power. When resolving such abilities, it does so exactly as if it were a PSYKER, and is affected by rules that modify Psychic tests or Deny the Witch tests, but it is not a PSYKER for any other rules purposes."
Let's reduce this down - the rules in question here allow a non-psyker to be a psyker, but only for manifesting or denying a psychic power.
A psychic action is not a psychic power. Nor is denying a psychic action the same as denying a psychic power. They use the same process, but the rules state that they are different things.
Therefore, the model does not count as a psyker for anything relating to psychic actions.

Based on previous posts, SunnySideUp, I believe your grasp of English is good enough that you're not confused about the word "when".
Where is your basis that these rules allow the model to become a psyker specifically for the purposes of psychic actions, as opposed to powers?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Good lord. People. Leave a HIWPI alone if you disagree. You’re just wasting threadspace. I don’t know how that could be more clear but two rebuttals aiiieeee. Just move along!

Alternatively, you could stop posting the exact same "Everyone else stop posting about the rules" message in every thread you disagree with the RaW answer too?

In any case, Jidmah has it perfectly correct. Being able to deny psychic powers as if you were a PSYKER doesn't let you act as a PSYKER for any other reason.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Good lord. People. Leave a HIWPI alone if you disagree. You’re just wasting threadspace. I don’t know how that could be more clear but two rebuttals aiiieeee. Just move along!

Sunny is not arguing HIWPI, he is claiming RAW.

IMO there is no point in arguing HIWPI, and I fully accept your take on how you would play it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Good lord. People. Leave a HIWPI alone if you disagree. You’re just wasting threadspace. I don’t know how that could be more clear but two rebuttals aiiieeee. Just move along!

Alternatively, you could stop posting the exact same "Everyone else stop posting about the rules" message in every thread you disagree with the RaW answer too?

In any case, Jidmah has it perfectly correct. Being able to deny psychic powers as if you were a PSYKER doesn't let you act as a PSYKER for any other reason.

And you could stop misrepresenting what I posted and what I reply to. That would be novel. I don’t feel this issue is clear and I posted how we’d likely handle on our group. People tried to rebut a HIWPI despite the Tenets of YMDC. it’s not my fault people don’t read those, and that you can’t resist seeking out my posts to have a go. Move on, man.

If you don't want to keep participating in the thread, just stop. It's curious how you feel the need to tell other people to "move on" and instead of just, well, doing it yourself.

It probably is time for the thread to die, though - not because you got offended, but simply because it is so clear what the RAW is, aside from the one person who won't admit they misread the rule, who pretty clearly is so invested in their position they're not going to change their mind no matter how many other people confirm they are reading it wrong.

 Jidmah wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
It's not treated as a PSYKER when you select it.

Good. Since selecting a PSYKER is a mandatory part of denying a psychic actions, RAW non-psykers can never deny them.

including resolving a psychic action.

Wrong. Actual rule:
Sometimes a rule will allow a model that is not a PSYKER to attempt to manifest or deny a psychic power. When resolving such abilities, it does so exactly as if it were a PSYKER, and is affected by rules that modify Psychic tests or Deny the Witch tests, but it is not a PSYKER for any other rules purposes.

Absolutely no permission to count as a psyker during psychic actions.

Doesn't matter. They count as a PSYKER during deny the witch, which is all you need to be eligible for "Action X" that denies a psychic action as per the psychic action rules, which is something different to begin with, as has often been pointed out (thus also can be done on 2D6 by Sisters and Brimstones, doesn't count against your actual deny-limit, etc..?).

By Jidmah's logic, a Sisters unit couldn't attempt to deny a smite either, as they wouldn't be PSYKER upon selection by the Sisters player. But that's not how it works. The Sisters units (usually far more than one, giving the Sisters player a wealth of choice on which units he wants to select) are considered PSYKER by virtue of the, say, Thousand Sons player, attempting to resolve a rule that relates to Deny the Witch. And that is true for both casting a power and attempting a psychic action. Both equally trigger the "is considered PSYKER clause", and that is enough to do that die-roll-that-isn't-a-deny-anyhow-to-stop-the-psychic-action.

Everything you wrote is simply objectively wrong. Sorry, I know that sounds harsh, but there's no other way to say it. The statement that "they count as a PSYKER for deny the witch" is just objectively wrong. The rule actually says the exact opposite - they count as a psyker for denying a psychic power only.

Sisters can try to deny a smite because it specifically says they can in their rules. If their rule specifically said they can attempt to deny either a psychic power or a psychic action, they could do that, but that's not what their rule says.

The rule for denying psychic actions specifically says only PSYKERS can deny. The rare rule section for non-psykers who can attempt to manifest/deny explicitly only applies to psychic POWERS, not actions, and explicitly says this is not true for any other purpose...like, you know, denying a psychic action.

Every single piece of text you have quoted says the same thing: only PSYKERS can attempt to deny a psychic action.

But if you don't get it by now you aren't going to get it just because someone else repeats it an 11th time.

Well, you should take your own advice and stop repeating objectively wrong and even internally inconsistent arguments.

Sure they count as PSYKER for denying powers. Nothing else is needed to trigger the rules that allow you to deny a psychic action. That is the only condition they need to meet.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, you should take your own advice and stop repeating objectively wrong and even internally inconsistent arguments.

Sure they count as PSYKER for denying powers. Nothing else is needed to trigger the rules that allow you to deny a psychic action. That is the only condition they need to meet.

This statement refutes itself.

They count as a Psyker for denying powers.

Is a psychic action a power?

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, you should take your own advice and stop repeating objectively wrong and even internally inconsistent arguments.

Sure they count as PSYKER for denying powers. Nothing else is needed to trigger the rules that allow you to deny a psychic action. That is the only condition they need to meet.

The rules say they can deny psychic powers as a psyker. They do no say that they can deny psychic actions as a psyker. There's a difference between the two. The only thing stated is denying powers as if a psychic, it does not say that they are a psychic. Currently, according to the RAW you have to be a psychic to deny a psychic action, they have not stated that being able to deny a power as if a psyker qualifies you for also denying a pyschic action. If GW means for being able to deny powers also lets you deny psychic actions then they need to come out and FAQ it; as it stands there is no permission for them to deny psychic actions. That would mean a whole lot of units being able to deny psychic actions that currently aren't allowed to because of the rules (Sisters, etc)

That’s just all wrong, jumbled wishlisting and fluffy misinterpretations without reading the actual text.

The deny rules for deny the witch don’t allow anyone to deny a psychic action. Not Magnus, not Tigurius. Nobody.

Permission to roll some dice to stop a psychic action is given by the psychic action rules to PSYKER with explicit reference to resolve that interaction as described by the deny the witch rules (which don’t mention psychic actions).

Simply because the psychic action rules reference deny the witch, the rare rules clause is triggered and models that can deny powers (not actions) are treated as PSYKER, irrespective of whether they can or cannot deny psychic powers, shooting attacks, a Trump re-election, whatever.

That doesn’t matter. The psychic action rules themselves trigger the condition for them to count as PSYKER and thus potentially deny the action, simply because it references deny the witch and thus “activates” the PSYKER clause for those units as specified under rare rules.

I have to agree with everyone else. This supposition that because Psychic Actions allow Psychers to Deny the Witch somehow opens door for models that have a rule that allows them to deny Psychic Powers is simply not supported by the text. The text literally says they only count as a Psycher for the purposes of denying Psychic Powers and no other rules purpose. A Psychic Action is another rules purpose.

The count as Psykers for resolving rules affecting deny the which, which psychic action clearly is as deny the witch is prominently featured in its resolution, this it clearly is not “another” rule.

Thus units that could by some means deny a psychic power are treated as PSYKER for resolving the psychic action rule. Everything else follows letter by letter from the psychic action rules ( unless the player attempting the action chooses not to resolve that rule, thus forgoing the points).

Sunny Side Up wrote:
The count as Psykers for resolving rules affecting deny the which, which psychic action clearly is as deny the witch is prominently featured in its resolution, this it clearly is not “another” rule.

That is not the rule. The rule is:

Sometimes a rule will allow a model that is not a PSYKER to attempt to manifest or deny a psychic power. When resolving such abilities, it does so using the rules on pages 214-215 exactly as if it were a PSYKER, and is affected by rules that modify Psychic tests or Deny the Witch tests, but it is not a PSYKER for any other rules purposes.

The rules on page 214-215 do not mention Psychic Abilities, nor does the Rare Rules above. You are overreaching your interpretation of the rule.

Thus units that could by some means deny a psychic power are treated as PSYKER for resolving the psychic action rule. Everything else follows letter by letter from the psychic action rules ( unless the player attempting the action chooses not to resolve that rule, thus forgoing the points).

Sorry, but again that is a supposition based on an overly broad interpretation of the rule allowing non-Psychers to deny a psychic power.

We're done here. I think pretty much everyone has agreed on how this works RAW and sunny is simply refusing to concede the points despite their own argument contradicting itself.

You cannot pick non-psykers to deny psychic actions. Therefore the special rules section - which also is explicitly limited to work only for denying powers and nothing else - does not apply.

I'm sorry, I am trying hard to understand this, but what the hell is a Psychic action? Isn't that the action of manifesting a Psychic power? I have not read or purchases the 9th book, so if you could explain it to me, are there new things that Psykers do?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm sorry, I am trying hard to understand this, but what the hell is a Psychic action? Isn't that the action of manifesting a Psychic power? I have not read or purchases the 9th book, so if you could explain it to me, are there new things that Psykers do?

Psychic Actions are explained on page 258 of the Core Rulebook and briefly touched upon in the Faction Focus: Thousand Sons article on Warhammer Community.

The 8th one or the 9th? I don't have the 9th BRB.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The 8th one or the 9th? I don't have the 9th BRB.

Its for 9th.

Its a thing done as part of a secondary mission objective, a Psyker performs an action one or more times and you score a number of VPs if it is successful enough.

 Kcalehc wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The 8th one or the 9th? I don't have the 9th BRB.

Its for 9th.

Its a thing done as part of a secondary mission objective, a Psyker performs an action one or more times and you score a number of VPs if it is successful enough.

Thanks for helping me to understand! I thought casting a psychic power was somehow not a "action" and was starting to get a little woozy.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Thanks for helping me to understand! I thought casting a psychic power was somehow not a "action" and was starting to get a little woozy.

Psychic Powers are not Psychic Actions. They are functionally separate things.

Wait a second, i dont have my book on me right this second, but do psychic powers not count as actions? so can i use my psycher to "raise the banners" and then use a psychic power and not have it stop raising the banner?

Manifesting Psychic Powers is on the list of things you cannot do while performing an Action.

I'm sorry, I understand there are differences in words, but this is literally the dumbest split hair writing in all of GW's writings. Manifesting a power is not considered an "action"? This is getting ultra ridiculous now. GW could at least call "Actions" something else, to prevent this exact confusion. Call them Psychic Presentments and Manifestations. I don't know, but this is what leads to people not playing properly. Because the basic rules are needlessly complex. It's the Wounds vs damage thing all over again.

Might I suggest you actually read the rules in question before passing a judgement. It isn't that dumb in practice.

Agree. Actions are things you can do instead of acting normally to score VP, for example scan something or place a teleport homer.
Psychic actions are merely actions that require you to pass a psychic test.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm sorry, I understand there are differences in words, but this is literally the dumbest split hair writing in all of GW's writings. Manifesting a power is not considered an "action"? This is getting ultra ridiculous now. GW could at least call "Actions" something else, to prevent this exact confusion. Call them Psychic Presentments and Manifestations. I don't know, but this is what leads to people not playing properly. Because the basic rules are needlessly complex. It's the Wounds vs damage thing all over again.

It's not hair splitting than just the effects of an updated ruleset.

This discussion comes from item rules made before the coming of the Actions/Psychic Actions for Secondary VP. We don't know if those rules (Warlord traits/ Relics) would be upgraded or Faqued to deny Psychic Actions of will remain as they are now so it's just a matter of waiting until updated Codex show up.

Right now we can just made educated guess based on current RAW.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm sorry, I understand there are differences in words, but this is literally the dumbest split hair writing in all of GW's writings. Manifesting a power is not considered an "action"? This is getting ultra ridiculous now. GW could at least call "Actions" something else, to prevent this exact confusion. Call them Psychic Presentments and Manifestations. I don't know, but this is what leads to people not playing properly. Because the basic rules are needlessly complex. It's the Wounds vs damage thing all over again.

They've introduced the concept of actions that can occur during a turn (mainly related to an action that's performed to achieve a mission objective), and psychic actions are merely a subset of actions now that can happen during a turn, ones that only psykers can do. The psychic actions are completely separate from psychic powers. An example (paraphrasing without the book here) is a psychic action where you can psychically interrogate an enemy to get some information and gain some victory points. But given that they have actions of all sorts now it makes sense for the psychic actions to be called what they are.