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Not Online!!! wrote:


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Sgt. Cortez wrote:
It would be a good way for CSM if they connected CORE to marks and/or legions. They could also disconnect it from Troops. I mean, GW tried since 6th edition to make Cult units Elites, in 6th and 7th they were only allowed as troops if they had the same marks as the warlord, in Traitor legions CSM got special rules to basically be pretty close to Plague Marines/ Berzerkers and so on, in 8th edition they tried to make Noise Marines and Berzerkers elites even for World Eaters/ EC but luckily that backfired and they had to adjust.
Maybe they'll try again, make them elites but allow for WE and EC to make their Cult units CORE at least. That way there's a place for CSM and Cult units in the legions.

Also iconic units: Raptors for Nightlords, Daemon engines and Havocs for Iron Warriors (Oblits, too? Could be too much), Cultists only for Alpha Legion (but they could benefit from Apostles in every legion), Possessed for Word Bearers, Chosen for Black Legion. If they're cool Daemon units can be CORE in Word Bearers armies, that would be pretty awesome.

It would allow for more thematic builds something most CSM players want since, well 3.5, or indeed the Legion supplement if they came into the hobby later on.

The downside is, in typical GW fashion they could give you fluffy CORE units but then say: for NL and Iron Warriors these only work when you don't take any marks on your units

IW is iffy with the no mark rule considering not all are as ardently anti mark.

That said it'd make sense for NL.

And if the rules compensate for such a lack of marks then it would not be an issue, but at that point that is wishlisting and we should wait to see if gw fails at yet another new keyword-mechanic they seem to implement or not.

There is no indication that "Core" will be used for any of the unique unit styled stuff you've mentioned and I feel like some people might be building the mechanism up too much already.

This is all we know:

The Core keyword is used to identify units that form the fighting… well, core, of an army. These are most commonly represented by units of line infantry, though this doesn’t mean it’s exclusive to Troops, nor just Infantry.

In the case of the first two books, Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Necrons many Elite units such as Terminator Squads and Lychguard, as well as Fast Attack units like Bike Squads and Tomb Blades, have the Core keyword. Even some Vehicles will be Core units too, where appropriate.

The indicator seems to be that Core units will be fairly wide in scope. Units like Berzerkers, etc will probably not get Core...but will get some kind of mechanism relating to Khorne units.
Assuming they aren't getting a World Eaters/Emperor's Children codex within the next few years that is.

For Marines I have a feeling it will be anything that can make up a battle company + vets (Termies, Stern/Van/Bladeguard, etc) but sans characters. Also probably not on Rhinos and Razorbacks.

Maybe Leman Russ Commanders will get a special rule saying they can treat Leman Russ vehicles as if they had core for the purposes of their orders and/or auras.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Spoiler:

Not Online!!! wrote:


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Sgt. Cortez wrote:
It would be a good way for CSM if they connected CORE to marks and/or legions. They could also disconnect it from Troops. I mean, GW tried since 6th edition to make Cult units Elites, in 6th and 7th they were only allowed as troops if they had the same marks as the warlord, in Traitor legions CSM got special rules to basically be pretty close to Plague Marines/ Berzerkers and so on, in 8th edition they tried to make Noise Marines and Berzerkers elites even for World Eaters/ EC but luckily that backfired and they had to adjust.
Maybe they'll try again, make them elites but allow for WE and EC to make their Cult units CORE at least. That way there's a place for CSM and Cult units in the legions.

Also iconic units: Raptors for Nightlords, Daemon engines and Havocs for Iron Warriors (Oblits, too? Could be too much), Cultists only for Alpha Legion (but they could benefit from Apostles in every legion), Possessed for Word Bearers, Chosen for Black Legion. If they're cool Daemon units can be CORE in Word Bearers armies, that would be pretty awesome.

It would allow for more thematic builds something most CSM players want since, well 3.5, or indeed the Legion supplement if they came into the hobby later on.

The downside is, in typical GW fashion they could give you fluffy CORE units but then say: for NL and Iron Warriors these only work when you don't take any marks on your units

That would make complete sense for Night Lords. They have been depicted as dismissive of the chaos gods and any who worship them or the Corpse God as weaklings and fools since the 2nd edition Chaos codex. In 3.5 they were prohibited from taking any marks except for undivided, and raptors were the same, meaning they were unusable by the cult legions because those legions required all units to carry the mark of their particular god. Allowing Night Lords to take marks and cult troops is a byproduct of the watering down of the legions identities that started with the 4th edition codex and I would personally love it if gw would return them to their previous portrayal as godless and nihilistic, as it is one of the reasons I was originally drawn to them.

Though that is all moot for this discussion anyway, as I'm sure raptors will be a CORE unit for the legions.

Without knowing more I would assume that non-vehicles non-character models can be considered core.

They called out characters and tansk not getting the benefits for core, so those perimiters would fit within that.

Further speculations would be that something could be included in: Very bad characters. Vehicles that are very flimsy (ridgerunners) or have human characteristics (dreadnoughts). Also you could exclude very elite infantery (Terminators.) But all of this is speculation.

A loooot of personal biases in here and probably a lot of disappointed people when this launches.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Spoiler:

Not Online!!! wrote:


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Sgt. Cortez wrote:
It would be a good way for CSM if they connected CORE to marks and/or legions. They could also disconnect it from Troops. I mean, GW tried since 6th edition to make Cult units Elites, in 6th and 7th they were only allowed as troops if they had the same marks as the warlord, in Traitor legions CSM got special rules to basically be pretty close to Plague Marines/ Berzerkers and so on, in 8th edition they tried to make Noise Marines and Berzerkers elites even for World Eaters/ EC but luckily that backfired and they had to adjust.
Maybe they'll try again, make them elites but allow for WE and EC to make their Cult units CORE at least. That way there's a place for CSM and Cult units in the legions.

Also iconic units: Raptors for Nightlords, Daemon engines and Havocs for Iron Warriors (Oblits, too? Could be too much), Cultists only for Alpha Legion (but they could benefit from Apostles in every legion), Possessed for Word Bearers, Chosen for Black Legion. If they're cool Daemon units can be CORE in Word Bearers armies, that would be pretty awesome.

It would allow for more thematic builds something most CSM players want since, well 3.5, or indeed the Legion supplement if they came into the hobby later on.

The downside is, in typical GW fashion they could give you fluffy CORE units but then say: for NL and Iron Warriors these only work when you don't take any marks on your units

That would make complete sense for Night Lords. They have been depicted as dismissive of the chaos gods and any who worship them or the Corpse God as weaklings and fools since the 2nd edition Chaos codex. In 3.5 they were prohibited from taking any marks except for undivided, and raptors were the same, meaning they were unusable by the cult legions because those legions required all units to carry the mark of their particular god. Allowing Night Lords to take marks and cult troops is a byproduct of the watering down of the legions identities that started with the 4th edition codex and I would personally love it if gw would return them to their previous portrayal as godless and nihilistic, as it is one of the reasons I was originally drawn to them.

Though that is all moot for this discussion anyway, as I'm sure raptors will be a CORE unit for the legions.

Of course it would be very fluffy but what I was trying to hint at is that GW usually made marks and corresponding rules pretty strong so that legions without them could hardly compensate.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
For CWE, it's going to be Guardians only.

100% guarantee.

That's obviously not going to be true...

For Eldar, I suspect Guardians, Dire Avengers and Wraithguard (Eldar version of Terminators). I'd be surprised if the various Aspects were CORE, but if some were I'd suspect Scorpions, Banshees and Swooping Hawks would be likely candidates. Possibly Wraithlord, if Marine Dreadnoughts get CORE.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Spoiler:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
It would be a good way for CSM if they connected CORE to marks and/or legions. They could also disconnect it from Troops. I mean, GW tried since 6th edition to make Cult units Elites, in 6th and 7th they were only allowed as troops if they had the same marks as the warlord, in Traitor legions CSM got special rules to basically be pretty close to Plague Marines/ Berzerkers and so on, in 8th edition they tried to make Noise Marines and Berzerkers elites even for World Eaters/ EC but luckily that backfired and they had to adjust.
Maybe they'll try again, make them elites but allow for WE and EC to make their Cult units CORE at least. That way there's a place for CSM and Cult units in the legions.

Also iconic units: Raptors for Nightlords, Daemon engines and Havocs for Iron Warriors (Oblits, too? Could be too much), Cultists only for Alpha Legion (but they could benefit from Apostles in every legion), Possessed for Word Bearers, Chosen for Black Legion. If they're cool Daemon units can be CORE in Word Bearers armies, that would be pretty awesome.

It would allow for more thematic builds something most CSM players want since, well 3.5, or indeed the Legion supplement if they came into the hobby later on.

The downside is, in typical GW fashion they could give you fluffy CORE units but then say: for NL and Iron Warriors these only work when you don't take any marks on your units

That would make complete sense for Night Lords. They have been depicted as dismissive of the chaos gods and any who worship them or the Corpse God as weaklings and fools since the 2nd edition Chaos codex. In 3.5 they were prohibited from taking any marks except for undivided, and raptors were the same, meaning they were unusable by the cult legions because those legions required all units to carry the mark of their particular god. Allowing Night Lords to take marks and cult troops is a byproduct of the watering down of the legions identities that started with the 4th edition codex and I would personally love it if gw would return them to their previous portrayal as godless and nihilistic, as it is one of the reasons I was originally drawn to them.

Though that is all moot for this discussion anyway, as I'm sure raptors will be a CORE unit for the legions.

Of course it would be very fluffy but what I was trying to hint at is that GW usually made marks and corresponding rules pretty strong so that legions without them could hardly compensate.

Well they could finally recognize that and give strong rules for Undivided. They have already possibly unwittingly done just that for Night Lords: staying Undivided so that you can take Icons of Vengeance on key units makes for a considerable boost in the number of targets those units can benefit from Prey On The Weak with.

I wouldn't be surprised if certain characters granted "core" status to units too.

Ex: IG Tank Commanders granting the "Core" keyword to LRBT (and variants) while within X"

Non marines will get "core" too.

It will effect non marine armies much less, especially xenos.

Most xenos aura buffs are very limited in what they effect already, and are unlikely to add the core tag, for example there is no point in say Kaptain Badrukks flash git re-roll 1s having the core keyword added to the rule, because it already only effects 1 unit type.

The core aura/trait/etc. thing is mostly going to effect SM and to an extent CSM players, xenos will see it hit them in things like stratagems to the same extent that SM and CSM players will get hit.

This is something that is mostly going to to effect "the most powerful auras" which are things that give bonuses to a large group of units, like SM buffs which just effect every unit with the same chapter keyword for example. People are getting carried away thinking that all auras will have the word CORE added to what it effects, which is not the case- and counter to what was posted on warhammer community.

So yeah non marines will get core, but it won't change much.

For Guard...

Leman Russ (Maybe just Battle Tank and Demolisher)
Basilisk

Infantry Squads
Scions
(NOT Conscripts)

(NOT Sentinels - lore wise they’re the he barely tolerated mavericks)
Maybe Evil Mutt tanks, but probably not.

Maybe Vets...

I can’t see anything else, being “auxiliaries” or weirdos.

@ greatbigtree: Of course it depends what exactly counts as aura etc. but I still think that conscripts should not be excluded (fluffwise) from profiting of the presence of a Commissar or a Priest. That's basically what keeps those guys functioning in the lore. And on the tabletop it seems to be pretty similar, take away the moral buffs and conscripts become even worse than they are.
But I'm open to be convinced otherwise. What is your argument against them being core? To represent their poor training?

Edit: on the other hand I still have a hard time seeing Scions as core... they are highly elites, even though they occupy a troop slot. And lore wise they are not really the guys that have to be kept together by a commissar. Maybe in a pure Scion detachment but otherwise... That's just my opinion of course

Why do people think a comissars aura is "one of the most powerful buffing aura's"? Like seriously who is actually playing comissars since they and conscripts got nerfed? Okay we don't know what they will do in the 9th edition codex but I doubt it'll be as oppressive as my 5 man aggressors will reroll all hits and 1's to wound because.

blaktoof wrote:
Non marines will get "core" too.

It will effect non marine armies much less, especially xenos..

Unless they give other armies more auras. By now I’m pretty used to beta testing things that go to marines as a whole, then other armies.


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 greatbigtree wrote:
For Guard...



(NOT Sentinels - lore wise they’re the he barely tolerated mavericks)
.

I think Sentinels have been scoring units like LR are now in the past not? If Dreads get it I’m almost positive Sentinels get it. I could even see Sentinels getting it before Dreads.

Ice_can wrote:
Why do people think a comissars aura is "one of the most powerful buffing aura's"? Like seriously who is actually playing comissars since they and conscripts got nerfed? Okay we don't know what they will do in the 9th edition codex but I doubt it'll be as oppressive as my 5 man aggressors will reroll all hits and 1's to wound because.

I might have been misunderstood. I don't think that the commissar aura is in any way strong (with the new moral rules it's even worth less). It's just a very iconic and fluffy one for guard. And I personally think from a fluff perspective it makes a lot of sense for Conscripts and Infantry Squads (less so for Scions).
Nontheless a Conscript unit with a comissar has a much better chance to pass their moral role and don't have to roll for attrition. That's what I meant with "conscripts would be even worse". It does not make them super strong, but at least it increases their survivability a little bit.

 Pyroalchi wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Why do people think a comissars aura is "one of the most powerful buffing aura's"? Like seriously who is actually playing comissars since they and conscripts got nerfed? Okay we don't know what they will do in the 9th edition codex but I doubt it'll be as oppressive as my 5 man aggressors will reroll all hits and 1's to wound because.

I might have been misunderstood. I don't think that the commissar aura is in any way strong (with the new moral rules it's even worth less). It's just a very iconic and fluffy one for guard. And I personally think from a fluff perspective it makes a lot of sense for Conscripts and Infantry Squads (less so for Scions).
Nontheless a Conscript unit with a comissar has a much better chance to pass their moral role and don't have to roll for attrition. That's what I meant with "conscripts would be even worse". It does not make them super strong, but at least it increases their survivability a little bit.

The point is GW specifically call it out as being a change affecting the most powerful buffing aura's not every aura.
Hence why I am 90% sure it wont effect either Tau or Knights as their aura's are either 1 time use, keyword locked Targeted. The only exception is the Etherials aura and you can't take them as enclaves anyway.

@ Pyroalchi:

Regarding Conscripts, I'm pretty sure GW figured out that they screwed up with the rules for Conscripts vs Infantry Squads. I think they're trying to push Conscripts out of the game, and denying them access to the Commissar's Aura (one of only 4 I can think of...) would make them all but unplayable. I agree that they basically *need* a Commissar to make them work, but I think GW's trying to squeeze them out of the game. More of a gut feeling than a reasoned argument.

I think Scions will be core because of the Scion codex of yesteryear. I think they (GW) do want them to be playable as a Stand-Alone force. They do have Regiments, they are certainly less common than Guardsmen, but probably outnumber Space Marines by 1000 to 1, at least. I think they're a "Core" in their own regard.

That said, I can think of Commissars, Priests, Master of Ordnance, and Sergeant Harker that can give Auras in the Guard. The closest to game breaking is Harker and he's only available to Catachans.

Sentinels might have had an "ObSec" like ability in the Emeperor's Talon formation... I'm not sure. I can't think of a single aura that would affect them, except Harker. Plus... I don't think GW sees the FA slot as being "Core" to the IG's identity. Nor elites, really. I think GW sees IG as poor ground-pounders slowly slugging their way forwards, with tanks for support. *SLOW* tanks. Not fast tanks, like Hellhounds.

Again, not that I agree with the ideas they appear to have, but that's my observation and expectation.

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if certain characters granted "core" status to units too.

Ex: IG Tank Commanders granting the "Core" keyword to LRBT (and variants) while within X"

I hope that won't be the case and instead they simply affect a unit or two (I don't want Tank Commanders giving rerolls to IG infantry, for example, because tanks were made "CORE" - I'd rather they only give rerolls to actual tanks).

Specific to IG, we tend to use orders rather than Auras, though that may change in time of course.

Right now Infantry can order other Infantry, and Russ can order other Russ, and that's baked in limitations.

Harker giving reroll 1's to nearby Catachan units is about as abusive as our Auras get... and I do abuse that.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Specific to IG, we tend to use orders rather than Auras, though that may change in time of course.

Right now Infantry can order other Infantry, and Russ can order other Russ, and that's baked in limitations.

For clarity's sake, because I'm absolutely positive someone will start thinking this is how it works and complain about Guard in a later thread:
Right now?
Officers(which are Infantry keyworded) can Order units of the same <Regiment> as themselves. They cannot Order vehicles nor can they Order anything with the Auxilia(Ogryn, Bullgryn, Ratlings) keyword nor can they use an Order on Militarum Tempestus or anything that is not the same <Regiment>.
Leman Russ Tank Commanders can use their Tank Orders on Leman Russ from the same <Regiment>.
Tempestor Primes(Scion Officers) can only Order Militarum Tempestus Infantry: meaning Scions and Scion Command Squads.

Then there's the whole bit about Vox-Casters, which are specific to a small number(Infantry Squad, Veteran Squad, Scion Squad, Scion and Command Squads) of units and have a two stage requirement(must be within 3" of a Vox-Caster on the Officer's side of things to issue the Order and the targeted unit must have a Vox-Caster) to be issued an Order via a Vox-Caster.


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 Stormonu wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if certain characters granted "core" status to units too.

Ex: IG Tank Commanders granting the "Core" keyword to LRBT (and variants) while within X"

I hope that won't be the case and instead they simply affect a unit or two (I don't want Tank Commanders giving rerolls to IG infantry, for example, because tanks were made "CORE" - I'd rather they only give rerolls to actual tanks).

I'd honestly be okay with Tank Commanders starting to be able to issue Orders to Infantry. Armoured/Mechanized Regiments do exist after all. It would actually be kind of interesting to have Tank Commanders and Infantry Commanders being able to Order Tanks or Infantry and each having a special Order intended for the other.

Something like Tank Commanders being able to issue a reworked "Move, Move, Move!" to Infantry Squads that are within a certain distance of friendly LRBTs while Infantry Commanders get to issue a reworked "Bring It Down!" to LRBTs?

I could imagine, that the core keyword can be distributed dynamicaly (in a way). Let's say, I take a Farseer on bike as a warlord - let windriders get the core keyword
I take a spiritseer - Wraith Units gain the core keyword

The force is led by a Fireblade - Fire Warrriors and non battle suit units gain the core keyword

(you get the idea, I think...) I have to admit, that will be even harder to balance, as the number of possible variations increases extremely. But it also would open a lot of new build possibilities and enable each player to play his favourite faction with his individual playstyle...

I think Tyranids will more or less be that units with a 60mm base or smaller are core (bar characters of course). Even caenifex make sense as core since it would help distinguish them as pseudo-biggies.

Nibbler wrote:
I could imagine, that the core keyword can be distributed dynamicaly (in a way). Let's say, I take a Farseer on bike as a warlord - let windriders get the core keyword
I take a spiritseer - Wraith Units gain the core keyword

The force is led by a Fireblade - Fire Warrriors and non battle suit units gain the core keyword

(you get the idea, I think...) I have to admit, that will be even harder to balance, as the number of possible variations increases extremely. But it also would open a lot of new build possibilities and enable each player to play his favourite faction with his individual playstyle...

They did something similar with Troops/ObSec a few editions back that got me to buy a Dark Angels RW/DW combi-wing army. Then they dumped it and haven't brought it back since. GW does love to recycle, but I wouldn't count on this. Plus why do it for CORE and not Troops/ObSec for these units/wonky armies?

Nibbler wrote:
I could imagine, that the core keyword can be distributed dynamicaly (in a way). Let's say, I take a Farseer on bike as a warlord - let windriders get the core keyword
I take a spiritseer - Wraith Units gain the core keyword

The force is led by a Fireblade - Fire Warrriors and non battle suit units gain the core keyword

(you get the idea, I think...) I have to admit, that will be even harder to balance, as the number of possible variations increases extremely. But it also would open a lot of new build possibilities and enable each player to play his favourite faction with his individual playstyle...

or simply gives the farseerer on bike a rule that allows it for the purpose of it's buffs etc to treat eldar bike units as if they where core,

I think that any sort of Core unlocking mechanic is just fanciful wish-listing. There is little point in adding a restriction and then making lots of ways around the restriction. Instead, I expect the rules will key off of existing keywords rather than expanding which units are Core.

For example, I don't think Spirtseers will make Wraith units Core. They will have abilities that target Wraith units. It doesn't make sense that a theoretical ability of a Farseer that only affects Core units will suddenly work on Wraith units because you dragged a Spiritseer with you.

What about army types unlocking Core then, like Iyanden making Wraithguard Core?

 alextroy wrote:
I think that any sort of Core unlocking mechanic is just fanciful wish-listing. There is little point in adding a restriction and then making lots of ways around the restriction. Instead, I expect the rules will key off of existing keywords rather than expanding which units are Core.

For example, I don't think Spirtseers will make Wraith units Core. They will have abilities that target Wraith units. It doesn't make sense that a theoretical ability of a Farseer that only affects Core units will suddenly work on Wraith units because you dragged a Spiritseer with you.

I agree. I think people are overthinking the scope of keywords, at least in the way GW uses them.
And in general, making keywords mutable makes them less useful, and vastly complicates abilities, as you then have to consider what if <character> that grants <ability> does something to a unit excluded form Core, but now that unit is suddenly within the set of Core units? Doing this basically negates the point of adding the Core keyword in the first place.

In particularly, its important for people to realize Core doesn't mean Troops or anything else. Its an entirely separate keyword that is completely independent. Like a lot of keywords it does nothing on its own, its just a hook for other rules.


@HBMC- that creates the same problems. The better solution is just to have any theoretical Iyanden abilities specifically affect Spirit Host* units. That way there isn't any unintentional effects. If you make Wraithguard Core, then any Iyanden specific buffs that affect them will also affect Guardians, and whatever aspect warriors, rangers, etc also get the Core keyword. That'd be weird.
If you just want Iyanden Wraithguard units affected, you'd use the Wraithguard keyword.


* I only have Xenos 1 and not the eldar codex, and Spirit Host was the keyword used for all Wraith units. If they changed it to Wraith, it makes little difference.

Tyranids likely will be:

Termagants
Hormagaunts
Rippers
Tyranid Warriors
Genestealers
Gargoyles
Raveners
Carnifexes

Also because Tyranid auras are already unit specific (with the obvious exception of Synapse), I expect that it will have no effect on our auras, an even on stratagems it is iffy as most are unit specific.