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Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly, i think the kellermorph, shouldn't have been a gunslinger but a saboteur.
High explosives, and a Stub carbine. Heck even a special one if need be.

Why? Because a mighty Astartes should be impervious to mere bullets?

Hecaton wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly, i think the kellermorph, shouldn't have been a gunslinger but a saboteur.
High explosives, and a Stub carbine. Heck even a special one if need be.

Why? Because a mighty Astartes should be impervious to mere bullets?

No because for a guerilla faction that infiltrates all echelons of society, a dude with Stubgun, is a bloody shame. Especially because there exists a stubgun profile for 40k allready.
It's Range 6 S 3 Ap0 D 1.

Give the dude high explosives and a variety of high quality weaponry like the aftermentioned stubcarabine, a specially modified Autogun, etc. Instead of making him John wayne in space.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly, i think the kellermorph, shouldn't have been a gunslinger but a saboteur.
High explosives, and a Stub carbine. Heck even a special one if need be.

Why? Because a mighty Astartes should be impervious to mere bullets?

No because for a guerilla faction that infiltrates all echelons of society, a dude with Stubgun, is a bloody shame. Especially because there exists a stubgun profile for 40k allready.
It's Range 6 S 3 Ap0 D 1.

Give the dude high explosives and a variety of high quality weaponry like the aftermentioned stubcarabine, a specially modified Autogun, etc. Instead of making him John wayne in space.

He has "specially modified" (rare and high quality) pistols. I don't understand what you're asking for? Are you just complaining because GSC got something that was too cool and you hate that fact? The model is super popular.

The complaints about the Kellermorph could have something to do with the "ooh super gunslinger hero unit with inexplicably awesome pistols" fitting more with the cartoon-video-game aesthetic GW seems determined to push towards rather than the wargame aesthetic they're moving away from.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The complaints about the Kellermorph could have something to do with the "ooh super gunslinger hero unit with inexplicably awesome pistols" fitting more with the cartoon-video-game aesthetic GW seems determined to push towards rather than the wargame aesthetic they're moving away from.

They aren't that inexplicably awesome. Give him 3 plasma pistols and holy gak it'd be crazy. So he's got a bit of a gunslinger vibe - Catachans have Predator/Vietnam era vibes, Krieg has WWI era vibes, etc. Nothing out of the ordinary there. Honestly it legitimately sounds like Astartes players upset that another faction got something cool.

Hecaton wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The complaints about the Kellermorph could have something to do with the "ooh super gunslinger hero unit with inexplicably awesome pistols" fitting more with the cartoon-video-game aesthetic GW seems determined to push towards rather than the wargame aesthetic they're moving away from.

They aren't that inexplicably awesome. Give him 3 plasma pistols and holy gak it'd be crazy. So he's got a bit of a gunslinger vibe - Catachans have Predator/Vietnam era vibes, Krieg has WWI era vibes, etc. Nothing out of the ordinary there. Honestly it legitimately sounds like Astartes players upset that another faction got something cool.

Am not even an astartes player, but besides that.
He doesn't even fit well with the aesthetique and the rest of the style of the faction. He just comparatively doesn't really fit in. Neither doctrine wise, nor style wise
And he doesn't even "not fit in" in a good way.
When i think of GSC and their infiltration and focus on mining, hiding and especially on infiltration of: military, PDF, Elites, I think of stuff like the nexos, magus, sanctus, the rider thingy with a sniperrifle on more rural worlds.
I also think sabotage and ambush, yet there is not one HQ for Sabotage?

Basically 99% of the faction is Ambush, sabotage, cold calculated alien planning, bio horror/ terrorism.... and then western style heroism?

Edit: specified the type of heroism

Slayer-Fan123 792175 10936989 wrote:
If it isn't consistent toppings you don't prove a point.

Well that kind of a depends, when someone in your weight class floors all opponents his age to a point where some entries start faking injuries and droping out of an event, to not fight the "crazy" Azer looks more like 20 then 16, then he really doesn't have to win 10 events over a whole seson to be considered good.

So yeah, there were like 3 big wins for GK armies in large tournaments. I think it is and was awesome on the players side. But at the same time it is rather hard to imagine GK being good prior PA, specialy outside of tournament. GK ain't eldar, their casual builds are not beating other armies tournament lists on a 50/50 basis.

Again seems like I used the wrong example with GK. The 8th csm split in to multiple books was bad too. Worse even with the extra books. GW does it all the time. In 9th the split the rule book from the missions you need to actualy play the game.

An Imperial Inquisitor has the best Shuriken Catapult in the game, better than the one used by Asurman, the first Phoenix Lord...

If that makes sense....

 harlokin wrote:
An Imperial Inquisitor has the best Shuriken Catapult in the game, better than the one used by Asurman, the first Phoenix Lord...

If that makes sense....

Wouldn't be the first time GW missed the vision for a faction and it's design representation in the rules by a mile, now wouldn't it.

Everyone arguing fluff comparison is completely missing the point. It's a damn game and the unit serves a purpose to the army in the form of a character assassin. It's stats need to represent it's role and be effective at doing it's job.

It doesn't mater if you can't figure out what the gun is shooting. It doesn't mater if you think it would be more thematic to double or triple down on the saboteur aspect. The faction got a character assassin unit (which ALSO fits with that theme btw) and it's stat line and weapons did the job the army needed it to.

How they explain it all is completely trivial.

i guess served is a better description of the state of affairs.

And frankly, wasn't that role for the faction allready filled, with the sanctus?

Not Online!!! wrote:
i guess served is a better description of the state of affairs.

And frankly, wasn't that role for the faction allready filled, with the sanctus?

Who gives a gak? Many armies have multiple units that do the same job. Why do SM have bikes, speeders, and jump pack infantry? If Necron infantry want to go fast they have their bikes. Thats it. If Tau infantry want to go fast they have vespids. Thats it. Multiple units in an army filling a similar or same role is not uncommon.

You get 2 flavors of character assassin in the GSC army list. Complaining because one of them has guns that do it's job is dumb as hell.

Nids get Lictors and Deathleaper. 2 units supposedly both supposed to be character assassins. Neither is effective at it's job.

 Lance845 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
i guess served is a better description of the state of affairs.

And frankly, wasn't that role for the faction allready filled, with the sanctus?

Who gives a gak? Many armies have multiple units that do the same job. Why do SM have bikes, speeders, and jump pack infantry? If Necron infantry want to go fast they have their bikes. Thats it. If Tau infantry want to go fast they have vespids. Thats it. Multiple units in an army filling a similar or same role is not uncommon.

You get 2 flavors of character assassin in the GSC army list. Complaining because one of them has guns that do it's job is dumb as hell.

Why have 2 charachters that do the same thing, when one solves the issues allready and you still have a vast hole in the army doctrine and fighting style`?
it would've been better to fill that hole first, but GW do GW.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:


Nids get Lictors and Deathleaper. 2 units supposedly both supposed to be character assassins. Neither is effective at it's job.

Don't get me started on that ... Get rid of one, or fold it together as an upgrade, give out a nice model , and finally fix the rules to make it work...

Hellebore wrote:That's a crappy comparison between auto weapons.

Have you seen how many BOLT weapons there are the ridiculously absurd number of different profiles they have?

Heavy bolt rifles
auto bolt rifles
heavy bolt pistols
that executor one or whatever it's called
occulus
sniper
blah blah bolter


etc etc


If marines can have 50+ bolt variants then it's beyond trivial for ONE bloody model to get a gun that's SLIGHTLY better than other variants of the gun.

No one's been screaming the world down because there are now more bolter variants than units types in xenos armies, but one xenos army gets a single weapon that's slightly better than a normal one and oh no we can't have that.

The entitlement is gross.

Not an Astartes player. I actually don't care about the Kellermorph's gun. I'm just pointing out that any criticism of that gun is valid. It's stats are bonkers for what it is supposed to be. GW tosses out Mastercrafted weapons like popcorn and they are are exactly +1 Damage. But the Kellermorph's Liberator Autostub is +1 Attack, +1 S, -1 AP, +1 S compared to a Autopistol.

As for nobody complaining about the proliferation of Astartes Bolt weapons, you must not be paying attention to the many threads about Marines on this forum. People are constantly pointing out how ludicrous the Space Marine weapon proliferation is.

 alextroy wrote:

Spoiler:

Hellebore wrote:That's a crappy comparison between auto weapons.

Have you seen how many BOLT weapons there are the ridiculously absurd number of different profiles they have?

Heavy bolt rifles
auto bolt rifles
heavy bolt pistols
that executor one or whatever it's called
occulus
sniper
blah blah bolter


etc etc


If marines can have 50+ bolt variants then it's beyond trivial for ONE bloody model to get a gun that's SLIGHTLY better than other variants of the gun.

No one's been screaming the world down because there are now more bolter variants than units types in xenos armies, but one xenos army gets a single weapon that's slightly better than a normal one and oh no we can't have that.

The entitlement is gross.

Not an Astartes player. I actually don't care about the Kellermorph's gun. I'm just pointing out that any criticism of that gun is valid. It's stats are bonkers for what it is supposed to be. GW tosses out Mastercrafted weapons like popcorn and they are are exactly +1 Damage. But the Kellermorph's Liberator Autostub is +1 Attack, +1 S, -1 AP, +1 S compared to a Autopistol.

^How many different types of handguns and bullets exist in reality?

 harlokin wrote:
An Imperial Inquisitor has the best Shuriken Catapult in the game, better than the one used by Asurman, the first Phoenix Lord...

If that makes sense....

When I first saw the model I thought it was a dire avangers autarch, worse I thought it was a dude eldar.

Wouldn't be the first time GW missed the vision for a faction and it's design representation in the rules by a mile, now wouldn't it

And because of the no model, no rules it become comical sometimes. The range phobo Lt, can deploy close tot he enemy with a pack, while the character melee killer phobos Lt has to hoof it from his own deployment zone.

But maybe they will get a rewrite, along side reavers in the up coming codex. Because the way they work now, with both intercessors and assault intercessors as troops, is just sad for people who may like the models.

For the record the "Purgatorus" Relic replaces a

Pistol 1 S4 AP0 D1 Bolt pistol
with a
Pistol 2 S5 AP-3 D2 "Bolt pistol"

for a +1shot +1S -3AP +1D difference.

Fancy special gun is fancy special gun. (There are three more Bolt weapon Relics in the main SM book.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
i guess served is a better description of the state of affairs.

And frankly, wasn't that role for the faction allready filled, with the sanctus?

Who gives a gak? Many armies have multiple units that do the same job. Why do SM have bikes, speeders, and jump pack infantry? If Necron infantry want to go fast they have their bikes. Thats it. If Tau infantry want to go fast they have vespids. Thats it. Multiple units in an army filling a similar or same role is not uncommon.

You get 2 flavors of character assassin in the GSC army list. Complaining because one of them has guns that do it's job is dumb as hell.

Why have 2 charachters that do the same thing, when one solves the issues allready and you still have a vast hole in the army doctrine and fighting style`?
it would've been better to fill that hole first, but GW do GW.

Why have 21 Space Marine HQ choices?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Nids get Lictors and Deathleaper. 2 units supposedly both supposed to be character assassins. Neither is effective at it's job.

Don't get me started on that ... Get rid of one, or fold it together as an upgrade, give out a nice model , and finally fix the rules to make it work...

Regarding the Liberator Autostub, do you think that this is an issue more with the name/fluff than anything else?

Given the connection to Tyranids, you'd think that the Kelermorph could have guns that fire psychically-charged rounds, or something to that effect. Hell, you could have them be bio-mechanical, or utilise knowledge that should be well outside of the planet's level (so that they're dramatically better, in spite of technological limits).

Then again, I might be a bit biased as I really don't care for the Kelermorph's fluff or design in general.

Why have 21 Space Marine HQ choices?

Lore, old options, but the most important thing of all. If GW makes 21 characters for marines, they seem to sell. I have a feeling, that if they made 21 GSC HQ options,t hey would not sell as well.

Karol wrote:

Why have 21 Space Marine HQ choices?

Lore, old options, but the most important thing of all. If GW makes 21 characters for marines, they seem to sell. I have a feeling, that if they made 21 GSC HQ options,t hey would not sell as well.

Obviously. But that's not exactly a "Game design" argument to make.

 Insectum7 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
i guess served is a better description of the state of affairs.

And frankly, wasn't that role for the faction allready filled, with the sanctus?

Who gives a gak? Many armies have multiple units that do the same job. Why do SM have bikes, speeders, and jump pack infantry? If Necron infantry want to go fast they have their bikes. Thats it. If Tau infantry want to go fast they have vespids. Thats it. Multiple units in an army filling a similar or same role is not uncommon.

You get 2 flavors of character assassin in the GSC army list. Complaining because one of them has guns that do it's job is dumb as hell.

Why have 2 charachters that do the same thing, when one solves the issues allready and you still have a vast hole in the army doctrine and fighting style`?
it would've been better to fill that hole first, but GW do GW.

Why have 21 Space Marine HQ choices?

Not the same situation, one army still lacks a key component, (well a component one would expect) whilest the other is saturated, overly so in some cases.

"Lets make Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions into one unit and make it work."
"Let's fold Zoanthropes and Neurothropes into one unit and make it work"
"Let's fold Chaplains with Jump Packs and Vanguard into one unit and make it work."
"Let's . . . ."

Folding together OR getting rid of one. If folded togehter make a nice kit out of it with the leaper beeing an Upgraded version. You know, like the bloody upgrades that were once common to units, it'd even have models to have rules thanks to GW's nonsense.

also not the same, but a consolidation for say Chaos lords with terminator armor, jumppacks foot etc, would certainly improve overall the situation instead of having 5 seperate bloody entries.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Karol wrote:

Why have 21 Space Marine HQ choices?

Lore, old options, but the most important thing of all. If GW makes 21 characters for marines, they seem to sell. I have a feeling, that if they made 21 GSC HQ options,t hey would not sell as well.

Obviously. But that's not exactly a "Game design" argument to make.

If you think about it though, 21 choices is mostly a grand illusion done to create unit entries. You have Captains, Librarians, Leuitenants, Chaplains, and Techmarines, and then whatever Primaris versions exist of each. That's 10 without consolidation of profiles (which should really happen with the HQs). Saying there is 21 is openly saying GW created a separate entry for a Captain on a bike for no real reason.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Karol wrote:

Why have 21 Space Marine HQ choices?

Lore, old options, but the most important thing of all. If GW makes 21 characters for marines, they seem to sell. I have a feeling, that if they made 21 GSC HQ options,t hey would not sell as well.

Obviously. But that's not exactly a "Game design" argument to make.

I think it is very much a game design argument. Something sells more, so we give more similar things for people to buy, and because GW has a paradigma of no rules without a model. We end up with 21 marine HQs, on top of it they give all marine factions at least 1 new model when the codex comes out. And it is easier to make another hero, then a new unit.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
i guess served is a better description of the state of affairs.

And frankly, wasn't that role for the faction allready filled, with the sanctus?

Who gives a gak? Many armies have multiple units that do the same job. Why do SM have bikes, speeders, and jump pack infantry? If Necron infantry want to go fast they have their bikes. Thats it. If Tau infantry want to go fast they have vespids. Thats it. Multiple units in an army filling a similar or same role is not uncommon.

You get 2 flavors of character assassin in the GSC army list. Complaining because one of them has guns that do it's job is dumb as hell.

Why have 2 charachters that do the same thing, when one solves the issues allready and you still have a vast hole in the army doctrine and fighting style`?
it would've been better to fill that hole first, but GW do GW.

Why have 21 Space Marine HQ choices?

Not the same situation, one army still lacks a key component, (well a component one would expect) whilest the other is saturated, overly so in some cases.

"Saturated"

Have you looked at the marine book recently? Or the number of Imperial factions? And you're going to complain about a little overlap between two characters? You're serious aren't you?

It's a laughable position!

Not Online!!! wrote:

"Lets make Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions into one unit and make it work."
"Let's fold Zoanthropes and Neurothropes into one unit and make it work"
"Let's fold Chaplains with Jump Packs and Vanguard into one unit and make it work."
"Let's . . . ."

Folding together OR getting rid of one. If folded togehter make a nice kit out of it with the leaper beeing an Upgraded version. You know, like the bloody upgrades that were once common to units, it'd even have models to have rules thanks to GW's nonsense.

also not the same, but a consolidation for say Chaos lords with terminator armor, jumppacks foot etc, would certainly improve overall the situation instead of having 5 seperate bloody entries.

So what's the bigger offender. . . Kelermorph or 30 Bolt wepons?

Karol wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Karol wrote:

Why have 21 Space Marine HQ choices?

Lore, old options, but the most important thing of all. If GW makes 21 characters for marines, they seem to sell. I have a feeling, that if they made 21 GSC HQ options,t hey would not sell as well.

Obviously. But that's not exactly a "Game design" argument to make.

I think it is very much a game design argument. Something sells more, so we give more similar things for people to buy, and because GW has a paradigma of no rules without a model. We end up with 21 marine HQs, on top of it they give all marine factions at least 1 new model when the codex comes out. And it is easier to make another hero, then a new unit.

That's a business decision, not a decision motivated by game design.

Dude Like i said i am no astartes player.
And yes i am going to complain, not about the kellermorph as a unit but as a role that was filled whilest there still is a hole in the faction that should be filled instead.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Dude Like i said i am no astartes player.
And yes i am going to complain, not about the kellermorph as a unit but as a role that was filled whilest there still is a hole in the faction that should be filled instead.

Which is a fine opinion to have but completely irrelevant to THIS discusion about the kellermorphs stat line and subsequent nerf.

The opinion that GSC could use a different character filling a different role has nothing to do with anything being discussed here.

I don't really understand why the Kelermorph upsets people for fluff reasons. The cries of "noooo, he should have 3 S3 AP- shots" just came across as so weird. Such would be... quite useless.

Going "Liberator autostubs=bad, volkite gyro-devourer uzi? Oh that's fine then." just doesn't make much sense to me.

I think there was an argument he had too good offensive firepower for just 60 points - but once it became clear he was impossible to screen and so was almost always a fire and forget missile (admittedly with potential double shooting at the cost of CP and sacrificing that stratagem on something else) those complaints receded. Also if he wasn't 1 per detachment.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Dude Like i said i am no astartes player.
And yes i am going to complain, not about the kellermorph as a unit but as a role that was filled whilest there still is a hole in the faction that should be filled instead.

You know the Imperium has four different types of assassins, right? Not even counting the Death Cult Assassins.

What role should have been filled instead?

Not Online!!! wrote:


Am not even an astartes player, but besides that.
He doesn't even fit well with the aesthetique and the rest of the style of the faction. He just comparatively doesn't really fit in. Neither doctrine wise, nor style wise
And he doesn't even "not fit in" in a good way.
When i think of GSC and their infiltration and focus on mining, hiding and especially on infiltration of: military, PDF, Elites, I think of stuff like the nexos, magus, sanctus, the rider thingy with a sniperrifle on more rural worlds.
I also think sabotage and ambush, yet there is not one HQ for Sabotage?

To be honest, you're wrong.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Why have 2 charachters that do the same thing, when one solves the issues allready and you still have a vast hole in the army doctrine and fighting style`?
it would've been better to fill that hole first, but GW do GW.

That isn't an argument against the Kelermorph. What is your actual argument against it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
I don't really understand why the Kelermorph upsets people for fluff reasons. The cries of "noooo, he should have 3 S3 AP- shots" just came across as so weird. Such would be... quite useless.

It's literally people who think that GSC shouldn't have nice things, rules wise *or* fluff wise *or* model wise. They have to have others' play experience be worse to be satisfied.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Dude Like i said i am no astartes player.
And yes i am going to complain, not about the kellermorph as a unit but as a role that was filled whilest there still is a hole in the faction that should be filled instead.

You know the Imperium has four different types of assassins, right? Not even counting the Death Cult Assassins.

What role should have been filled instead?

It's not worth the discussion, Not Online is arguing the army is lacking in a few other key points so adding another unit entry that performs a similar/same role as another didn't add value to the army. That's not wrong but likewise replacing the kellermorph with a different 1 model character unit isn't going to fix the army either.

Imperium is spoiled with a glut of options by definition, despite that the 5 assassins do all have different functions at least.