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 Super Ready wrote:
There seems to be an awful lot of focus on this Apothecary-resurrecting-ATV thing... I'll posit that if that's what you're doing, you're wasting the bike's potential, having it sat back where the Apothecary can actually reach it.

My main opponent plays Deathwatch, so I know he's pretty excited about just having the apothecary in teleport and bringing it down next to whatever unit loses a model, on whatever turn they lose it. This would allow a unit of 3 ATVs to be mobile.

Bladeguard were probably the best new unit of the bunch before they made eradicators even more ridiculous with the new codex.

I agree with the general point re: GW's balance philosophy being more "get drunk, put on a blindfold and lob darts in a random direction" than "evil masterminds," though.

One thing I am unhappy to be right about is that, just like I said, it turns out <CORE> is actually more of a nerf for everybody else than for space marines, who inexplicably get it on pretty much their entire army.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Ok, so if a 3 wound T4, 2+, 5++ body with deep strike is worth 33 PPM with two lightning claws what can we extrapolate the price of the same body with a combi-bolter and a chainaxe to be?

Storm Bolters on some other units are weirdly expensive 3 points on SG / 5 on vehicles. A chainaxe will probably be 2 or 3. I'd bet 28 points for that setup barring a spike tax.

That's my guess as well. No thoughts on gw basically giving Armourbane back to chainfists? Assuming Hellforged Contemptors are WS3 now then a double chainclaw unit will average 16 wounds against T8 3+ targets (remember, no invuls for knights in cc) give it Diabolic Strength and Prescience and that jumps to 29. Dead knight. If they follow this pattern for all formerly Armourbane weapons Fellblade accelerator cannon AE shells would be Heavy 2, S14, Ap-4, D3d3/9 against vehicles. Add some kind of durability buff to equal what Armoured Ceramite used to do against melta and that price tag starts to make a little sense.

The Newman wrote:Did anyone else catch that Lightning Claws are now an extra attack per claw instead of for the pair? That gets a lot closer to even with a Power Fist per point.

I did. It means once warp talons get 2 wounds 5 can beat bladeguard in cc if they charge first, 10 can beat 6. Lions drug down by a pack of wolves. Groovy.

yukishiro1 wrote:Honestly if people want to take the primariocart derp bikes and apothecaries I'd much rather they do that than take eradicators.

Overall the codex looks pretty good balance wise, with the conspicuous absence of sense when it comes to eradicators.

Agreed, my take as well.

I hope they didn't nerf too many things too much. That there are only two supposedly busted units in the codex, I think that's a huge improvement and I think this edition is on track to being significantly more balanced than before. I can't wait to get my codex =D

so all the Sm dreads get serpent shield or something ?

yukishiro1 wrote:
One thing I am unhappy to be right about is that, just like I said, it turns out <CORE> is actually more of a nerf for everybody else than for space marines, who inexplicably get it on pretty much their entire army.

What do you mean "inexplicably?" They're the protagonist faction.

 Argive wrote:
so all the Sm dreads get serpent shield or something ?

Duty Eternal went away as a Stratagem. Instead all Dreadnoughts always take 1 less damage from all attacks (minimum 1).

It's a bit too early to claim that the CORE rule nerfs other factions.

For now, we know for a fact that it was a big nerf to marines, while a BUFF to necrons.

Remember that most of the buffs that are now CORE restricted in the necron codex, were warriors only before that, including the iconic MWBD. The CORE keyword in the necron case wasn't used to restrict the applicability of buffs, but to expand it.

We can tentatively say that the CORE keyword was meant as a nerf to marines, but that too would be just a random guess until we see at least 2-3 more factions. For sure though, right now there is nothing at all to support a narrative where the CORE keyword was some kind of indirect buff to marines.

Voss wrote:

 Argive wrote:
so all the Sm dreads get serpent shield or something ?

Duty Eternal went away as a Stratagem. Instead all Dreadnoughts always take 1 less damage from all attacks (minimum 1).

Ohh.. SO its a better serpent shield coz it works in CC.. Cool cool..
But the dreads no longer get bolter discipline. Obviously its all such a nerf.

Spoletta wrote:
It's a bit too early to claim that the CORE rule nerfs other factions.

For now, we know for a fact that it was a big nerf to marines, while a BUFF to necrons.

Remember that most of the buffs that are now CORE restricted in the necron codex, were warriors only before that, including the iconic MWBD. The CORE keyword in the necron case wasn't used to restrict the applicability of buffs, but to expand it.

We can tentatively say that the CORE keyword was meant as a nerf to marines, but that too would be just a random guess until we see at least 2-3 more factions. For sure though, right now there is nothing at all to support a narrative where the CORE keyword was some kind of indirect buff to marines.

You marine defenders are such a treat. Core looked up to be a decent nerf to marines but nah basically all their infantry and dreads got it, I'm pretty sure this will not be rolled out to all the other factions. I'm all for fluffy armies but as it stand it seems GW thinks all kinds of marine infantry is core for no reason and the other armies can go and pound sand,

For your info, I'm a tyranid, sister and TS player, but sure feel free to call me a marine defender and ignoring my opinion if that makes you feel better.

 Weazel wrote:


Heavy intercessors are 190 points for 5. FWIW.

Where did you see that? Were they barebones or upgraded a bunch? That's way out of whack for PL to Point ratios. That's more than a shooty Terminator and they have a power fist, and invuln. A terminator without the fist is 26.. Even if the 2+ 5++ is a wash with ObSec around the 2ppm estimated difference, 38 is insane. Ten Regular Intercessors is barely more than that.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:


A quick note that Assault Termies are 33 +10 for TH.

TH/SS was just over 40 in CA2020 so they didn't skyrocket.

Breton wrote:

 Weazel wrote:


Heavy intercessors are 190 points for 5. FWIW.

Where did you see that? Were they barebones or upgraded a bunch? That's way out of whack for PL to Point ratios. That's more than a shooty Terminator and they have a power fist, and invuln. A terminator without the fist is 26.. Even if the 2+ 5++ is a wash with ObSec around the 2ppm estimated difference, 38 is insane. Ten Regular Intercessors is barely more than that.

Its wrong. Points are floating around, Heavy Intercessors are 28/model, and the heavy bolter variants are all +10. Maybe some confusion that those were the base weapons, perhaps?
Anyway, 5 man heavy intercessors are 140, 150 if you want a bigger gun on one.

 Argive wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Argive wrote:
so all the Sm dreads get serpent shield or something ?

Duty Eternal went away as a Stratagem. Instead all Dreadnoughts always take 1 less damage from all attacks (minimum 1).

Ohh.. SO its a better serpent shield coz it works in CC.. Cool cool..
But the dreads no longer get bolter discipline. Obviously its all such a nerf.

Yeah that was a weird one.

I was also going to add that quite a few dread weapons got improved. Not just multi-melta, but the Primaris Redemptor dreads are pretty disgusting. Either more shots or more damage on their main weapons and fist.

 Crimson wrote:

It says that you only need to pay for upgrades if they have a listed point cost in the entry. So the claws are included in the 33 points.

And we're another step closer to Power Level instead of points. They're starting to make more "upgrades" free in the points based system too.

 Castozor wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
It's a bit too early to claim that the CORE rule nerfs other factions.

For now, we know for a fact that it was a big nerf to marines, while a BUFF to necrons.

Remember that most of the buffs that are now CORE restricted in the necron codex, were warriors only before that, including the iconic MWBD. The CORE keyword in the necron case wasn't used to restrict the applicability of buffs, but to expand it.

We can tentatively say that the CORE keyword was meant as a nerf to marines, but that too would be just a random guess until we see at least 2-3 more factions. For sure though, right now there is nothing at all to support a narrative where the CORE keyword was some kind of indirect buff to marines.

You marine defenders are such a treat. Core looked up to be a decent nerf to marines but nah basically all their infantry and dreads got it, I'm pretty sure this will not be rolled out to all the other factions. I'm all for fluffy armies but as it stand it seems GW thinks all kinds of marine infantry is core for no reason and the other armies can go and pound sand,

except that many people noted it likely wasn't intended as a nerf to marines but rather to direct people to build fluffier armies. the rules going to "infantry, dreads and bikes" was predicted almost as soon as it was announced. if you had your hopes up this was some "super marine nerf hahaha" then wel, no one's fault but your own

yukishiro1 wrote:
Honestly if people want to take the primariocart derp bikes and apothecaries I'd much rather they do that than take eradicators.

Overall the codex looks pretty good balance wise, with the conspicuous absence of sense when it comes to eradicators.

Its not Either/Or. Outriders are FA, and a badly needed worthwhile FA choice. Erads are HS. I've been playing with resurrecting my Combi-wing army using Bone White Heavy Intercessors (with their actual rules whatever they may be) as the troops, DW Terminators and Bone White Aggressors in Elite, Ravenwing in Elite and FA, and some Bone White Erads in HS - The Primaris might not get Inner Circle/Death Wing rules/keywords but I'm tired of waiting for GW to fix it themselves and I'm just going to pretend rank and file Primaris have finally started metriculating into the First Company and this is how they'll be fielded.


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BrianDavion wrote:


except that many people noted it likely wasn't intended as a nerf to marines but rather to direct people to build fluffier armies. the rules going to "infantry, dreads and bikes" was predicted almost as soon as it was announced. if you had your hopes up this was some "super marine nerf hahaha" then wel, no one's fault but your own

Yeah it was pretty easy to predict Infantry, Walkers, Bikes, potentially TFC/Artillery.

How convenient then that fluffy for marines means basically all their power units and every other army gets nothing. I, unfortunately it seems, thought Core meant core units ala old WHFB style, and not every infantry unit and their mother too. Specialist units should not be core, because it seems Marines are still ahead of the pack by all measures. GW really missed the mark here imo.
Scouts moved to elite? Fair enough, but don't tell me all the special elite infantry is core then.

Spoletta wrote:
It's a bit too early to claim that the CORE rule nerfs other factions.

For now, we know for a fact that it was a big nerf to marines, while a BUFF to necrons.

Remember that most of the buffs that are now CORE restricted in the necron codex, were warriors only before that, including the iconic MWBD. The CORE keyword in the necron case wasn't used to restrict the applicability of buffs, but to expand it.

We can tentatively say that the CORE keyword was meant as a nerf to marines, but that too would be just a random guess until we see at least 2-3 more factions. For sure though, right now there is nothing at all to support a narrative where the CORE keyword was some kind of indirect buff to marines.

Wait, nope. MWBD was all necron <dynasty> infantry previously, not just warriors. So included Immortals, Deathmarks, Lychguard, Flayed Ones, and even Destroyers (who were and are still infantry). It got expanded to Tomb Guard, but Flayed Ones and Destroyers lost access to it.

Core is a GW fluff/'how armies should look' thing, and little more than that.

Necrons Core is models that are Necrons (not Canopteks) and sane (so not destroyers and flayed ones). What people are overlooking is there are very good buffs for Destroyer and Canoptek keywords that don't give two figs about Core.

Marines got slightly nerfed by Core. As non-dread vehicles lose out and so do most (all?) Characters (and frankly SM vehicles are looking pretty poor compared to their infantry, so a 'tuned' marine list will barely feel it in that regard). But smash captains aren't buffing themselves, or being buffed by Lieutenants That is gone.

The main difference between the two books is thematic. Unlike Destroyers and Flayed Ones which are functionally 'rogue units.' There are very few situations where any Space Marine infantry is going to 'forget' how to take orders. That's what Core is based on for Marines. It does give a wider gameplay bonus, but its one of those very GW decisions where the deciding factor is 'fluff' and 'feel.'

----
For future books, we can make a few guesses:
HQs (and characters in general) will pretty much universally not be Core. It knocks a lot of self buffs out, and gets rid of a lot of 'I order myself where to aim to be more accurate' sillyness

Wraith units won't be Core for Craftworlds, much like Destroyers or Canopteks, they'll have their own buffs tuned to their own keyword.
Guard auxiliary units won't be Core, obviously. Tanks... I'm honestly not sure. Based on marines they shouldn't be, but tanks are far more Core to Guard than they are to marines.

Death Guard- I doubt very much that Poxwalkers or Cultists will be Core. Non-core solves the original problem with cultists (getting all the buffs) and hopefully they'll reign in the stupid point premium on them. I also doubt daemon engines will be Core, and Chaos marines in general will probably follow the Marine pattern and have non-Core Tanks.

Some, I have no idea what they're going to do. Daemons for example, and the mess they've made of Dark Eldar. Maybe you'll have to choose a primary god or primary subfaction and those models get Core.

----
@Castozor- Troops already mean Core in the old WHFB sense. It wasn't ever going to be a 1:1 Troops = Core, or even close to that. That'd be completely pointless.

Yeah, the BIG nerf marines got with the new Core thing is that a couple of tanks can't now have access to re-rolls. What a tragedy!

Voss wrote:

Core is a GW fluff/'how armies should look' thing, and little more than that.

Really it's a way to ensure that armies that are supposed to be bad remain bad. They will use this to stop people from making low powered codices useful through creative list-building.

I have nothing to add, but just wanted to say that these threads you keep creating are very interesting and add great value to the forum, so thanks for that daedalus

Spoletta wrote:
It's a bit too early to claim that the CORE rule nerfs other factions.

For now, we know for a fact that it was a big nerf to marines, while a BUFF to necrons.

Remember that most of the buffs that are now CORE restricted in the necron codex, were warriors only before that, including the iconic MWBD. The CORE keyword in the necron case wasn't used to restrict the applicability of buffs, but to expand it.

We can tentatively say that the CORE keyword was meant as a nerf to marines, but that too would be just a random guess until we see at least 2-3 more factions. For sure though, right now there is nothing at all to support a narrative where the CORE keyword was some kind of indirect buff to marines.

But this is just totally, flat-out wrong. You obviously don't play necrons. The <CORE> change nerfs necrons way, way harder than marines. There is only one change in the whole book I can think of that actually benefits <CORE> - one of the special character rules now impacts more than just warriors. Everything else, buffs that used to work on other stuff got shut down. Your own example is simply wrong - MWBD used to work on any <dynasty> infantry (and briefly any <dynasty> unit in the indomitus box version, weirdly). There are a number of other abilities that are now restricted to <CORE> that used to go on a much wider variety of targets.

<CORE> is a significant nerf to Necrons while for marines it pretty much only impacts stuff you weren't taking anyway in a competitive list.

If GW was trying to nerf marines with <CORE> they ended up accomplishing the exact opposite, because Marines take a far smaller nerf from it than the other faction released at the same time, a faction that was literally the worst in the game from a competitive results perspective in 9th. Even GW isn't that incompetent.

 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, the BIG nerf marines got with the new Core thing is that a couple of tanks can't now have access to re-rolls. What a tragedy!

I know you're being sarcastic, but given that one of the most complained about things with Marines was their Guilliman Gunlines with Tanks?

Seems appropriate.

Marines maine nerf came in the form of nerfing their auras. You have to pay points for the chapter master and he only gives 1 unit full rerolls. Core was not necessary. All it does is force list choies. Strangely it's hurting marines a lot less than crons atm.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, the BIG nerf marines got with the new Core thing is that a couple of tanks can't now have access to re-rolls. What a tragedy!

I know you're being sarcastic, but given that one of the most complained about things with Marines was their Guilliman Gunlines with Tanks?

Seems appropriate.

Guilliman with tanks hasn't been a competitive list for literally years now, and it certainly wouldn't be competitive in 9th.

Deathwing infantry, like terminator squads and most DA characters, just got a new inner circle rule that gives an innate transhuman physiology (can't be wounded on 1-2-3). And terminators have a strata that up their toughness to T5 for 1 CP : great units.

So I'm very happy with the changes and I'll paint all my termi.

Yeah, DA got some nice stuff. Good to be last, I guess? (Though we'll see if the actual supplement is as nice as the index).
Not having access to Sternguard or Vanguard is OK

----
SW lost Wolf Scouts. No idea how this works fluffwise, since SW don't use their newbies for Scouts.

Bjorn is ridiculously durable with duty eternal and his feel no pain.

-----
BA have dreadnoughts for days. Just in general marines can go crazy with dreads.

Death Company Intercessors are... confusing. If I'm reading this right, if you switch to pistol and chainsword, no one can have a power weapon.

Voss wrote:
Death Company Intercessors are... confusing. If I'm reading this right, if you switch to pistol and chainsword, no one can have a power weapon.

Yeah, that doesn't look great to me either. Seems you get that initial option to choose between either a bolt rifle unit, or a chainsword unit, and that then limits you to:

- bolt rifle unit: one guy gets to take a fancy pistol/chainsword/power sword instead of the rifle, and can take a fancy melee weapon if they didn't swap their rifle for one.
- chainsword unit: two fancy pistols. That's your lot.

Something tells me this is either shortsighted dumbness lined up to what will be available in the Assault Intercessors... OR, short-lived dumbness that will be overridden by the Codex alongside having more options in the Assault Intercessors kit when it drops.

SW lost Wolf Scouts. No idea how this works fluffwise, since SW don't use their newbies for Scouts.

...I don't know why it didn't occur to me before, but - Scouts are Elite now anyway. Very little reason to keep them separate, though I doubt Wolf Scouts were the reason for moving them there.

 Super Ready wrote:

SW lost Wolf Scouts. No idea how this works fluffwise, since SW don't use their newbies for Scouts.

...I don't know why it didn't occur to me before, but - Scouts are Elite now anyway. Very little reason to keep them separate, though I doubt Wolf Scouts were the reason for moving them there.

Well, there are a couple things going on:

Fluffwise, it makes no sense.
Rules-wise, Wolf Scouts are 'fully fledged Space Marines'- they should have 2W now. Basic scouts don't.
Modelwise, Wolf scouts had access to a bunch of weapons scouts didn't, and people who bought wolf scouts have unusable models now.

that's a pile of 'feels bad.' And a weird one, since they didn't hesitate on dataslates for everything else (skyclaws made the trip!, and once upon a time SW were infamous for keeping their feet on the ground and disdaining jump packs). Nor did they hesitate on denying SW a list of units from the main book.

2d3 str9 ap-3 blast Land speeder vengeance.... sure it overheats on a 1 but who cares, that is 120pts for up to 6 las cannon shots with 3 damage, 4 with strat, big winner for me right there.

All Deathwing Terminators and dark angels characters having this too

"Each time an attack is made against this unit, if this unit has the Infantry keyword, an unmodified wound roll of 1-3 always fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or
the model making that attack may have."