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Voss wrote:

Rules-wise, Wolf Scouts are 'fully fledged Space Marines'- they should have 2W now.

So are scout sergeants and they still have one wound...

Voss wrote:
...Rules-wise, Wolf Scouts are 'fully fledged Space Marines'- they should have 2W now. Basic scouts don't...

Unless 2W represents Astartes power armour instead of just more experience/training.

 Jidmah wrote:
I have nothing to add, but just wanted to say that these threads you keep creating are very interesting and add great value to the forum, so thanks for that daedalus

I presume this is sarcasm?

 Castozor wrote:
How convenient then that fluffy for marines means basically all their power units and every other army gets nothing. I, unfortunately it seems, thought Core meant core units ala old WHFB style, and not every infantry unit and their mother too. Specialist units should not be core, because it seems Marines are still ahead of the pack by all measures. GW really missed the mark here imo.
Scouts moved to elite? Fair enough, but don't tell me all the special elite infantry is core then.

Not to be totally pedantic but Centurions didn't get CORE, and Assault Cents were one of the grosser things in the codex.

 Formosa wrote:
2d3 str9 ap-3 blast Land speeder vengeance.... sure it overheats on a 1 but who cares, that is 120pts for up to 6 las cannon shots with 3 damage, 4 with strat, big winner for me right there.

All Deathwing Terminators and dark angels characters having this too

"Each time an attack is made against this unit, if this unit has the Infantry keyword, an unmodified wound roll of 1-3 always fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or
the model making that attack may have."

The strat that gives +1 dmg (weapon of the dark age) is gone, it doesn't exist anymore.

Deathwing terminators just got very good, and deathwing knight are WS/BS 2+.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
2d3 str9 ap-3 blast Land speeder vengeance.... sure it overheats on a 1 but who cares, that is 120pts for up to 6 las cannon shots with 3 damage, 4 with strat, big winner for me right there.

All Deathwing Terminators and dark angels characters having this too

"Each time an attack is made against this unit, if this unit has the Infantry keyword, an unmodified wound roll of 1-3 always fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or
the model making that attack may have."

The strat that gives +1 dmg (weapon of the dark age) is gone, it doesn't exist anymore.

Deathwing terminators just got very good, and deathwing knight are WS/BS 2+.

My pure deathwing army has sat on a shelf since 5th so I am finally gonna dig them out I think and get some pure deathwing games in

 Formosa wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
2d3 str9 ap-3 blast Land speeder vengeance.... sure it overheats on a 1 but who cares, that is 120pts for up to 6 las cannon shots with 3 damage, 4 with strat, big winner for me right there.

All Deathwing Terminators and dark angels characters having this too

"Each time an attack is made against this unit, if this unit has the Infantry keyword, an unmodified wound roll of 1-3 always fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or
the model making that attack may have."

The strat that gives +1 dmg (weapon of the dark age) is gone, it doesn't exist anymore.

Deathwing terminators just got very good, and deathwing knight are WS/BS 2+.

My pure deathwing army has sat on a shelf since 5th so I am finally gonna dig them out I think and get some pure deathwing games in

Same ! But don't go too hard until the supplement get out so we can still play them in a few month ...

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I have nothing to add, but just wanted to say that these threads you keep creating are very interesting and add great value to the forum, so thanks for that daedalus

I presume this is sarcasm?

Has Dakka corrupted you this much that you think it's sarcasm ? I think the same as Jidmah, you often make interesting threads, thanks for that !

So why do Deathwing inexplicably ignore those wound rolls?

Voss wrote:
Between the two books, I think Elite has lost its meaning somewhat.
Instead of actual elites, its becoming more the 'catch-all' category. Not troops, but not fast or big guns either.

Both scouts and Spyders ended up there, and praetorians scooted off to fast attack.

There's definitely quite a bit of 'the army should look/feel the way we say it should' to these changes.

I mean, I think "Elite" for "Specialist Infantry" works. Units in the Heavy Support are armor and artillery, units in Fast Attack are highly mobile light units for recon or hit-and-run type things, and units in Elite are specialist infantry. Auxiliary infantry units that aren't core to the formation the player is fielding [would be attached from either the parent or another unit], like Scouts, Conscripts etc. don't really belong in Troops and shouldn't get ObSec, and trash auxiliary infantry is neither common enough nor diverse enough to warrant a whole slot type.

Anyway, I don't think there's a calling for Elite slot units to be strictly representing veterancy so much as being a specialist infantry unit. After all, it's not like there aren't exceptions to the other slots [like Eliminators, which are medium sniper infantry and neither armor, heavy weapons, or artillery]

 Aaranis wrote:

Has Dakka corrupted you this much that you think it's sarcasm ? I think the same as Jidmah, you often make interesting threads, thanks for that !

Yea, I'm sure it has. I appreciate the kind words.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Voss wrote:
Between the two books, I think Elite has lost its meaning somewhat.
Instead of actual elites, its becoming more the 'catch-all' category. Not troops, but not fast or big guns either.

Both scouts and Spyders ended up there, and praetorians scooted off to fast attack.

There's definitely quite a bit of 'the army should look/feel the way we say it should' to these changes.

I mean, I think "Elite" for "Specialist Infantry" works. Units in the Heavy Support are armor and artillery, units in Fast Attack are highly mobile light units for recon or hit-and-run type things, and units in Elite are specialist infantry. Auxiliary infantry units that aren't core to the formation the player is fielding [would be attached from either the parent or another unit], like Scouts, Conscripts etc. don't really belong in Troops and shouldn't get ObSec, and trash auxiliary infantry is neither common enough nor diverse enough to warrant a whole slot type.

Anyway, I don't think there's a calling for Elite slot units to be strictly representing veterancy so much as being a specialist infantry unit. After all, it's not like there aren't exceptions to the other slots [like Eliminators, which are medium sniper infantry and neither armor, heavy weapons, or artillery]

Well, I don't think it strictly represents anything at this point. But it certainly isn't specialist infantry, what with all the monsters and walkers in the slot. And even jump troops, sometimes.
Similarly, heavy support is often a far cry from armor and artillery (most armies don't even have the latter).

Overall the system is loose and pretty arbitrary. HQs wander into elites because of lack of slots, FA and HS and Troops wander into elites to diversify or move troublesome units out of slots, but its left a lot without a definition or saddled with an inappropriate one.

The WHFB Core/Special/Rare may suit this muddled mess better than the existing Force Org.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So why do Deathwing inexplicably ignore those wound rolls?

Because they are grim and resolved not to suffer any injuries while on the job, of course!

 Xenomancers wrote:
Marines maine nerf came in the form of nerfing their auras. You have to pay points for the chapter master and he only gives 1 unit full rerolls. Core was not necessary. All it does is force list choies. Strangely it's hurting marines a lot less than crons atm.

Ok heres the thing..

CM does give FULL rerolls to 1x <core> unit.
However, it is my nderstanding he also gives rerolls 1's to everybody anyway? And with max -1 penalty.. that's sort of enough?

ALSO - The thing about your repulsor not getting CM full reroll ? Well.. you can now pay a CP to give it rerolls anyway.. (Something something machine spirit something startegem)
So yay?

So... It all really seems like a bunch of side grades, straight up buffs (dreads) and some minor nerfs.

But really the re-rolls are still there. Its just not simple as plotting down a CM and giving him a 9" aura relic and chad your way to victory while removing your opponents army from the game. From what ive seen it all seems to equate a side shuffle rather than some sort of Nerf.

Apologies if I have seem of these wrong. Just going on what ive glimpsed from bat reps.

Nothings really changed for the rest of the community until their codexes come out..

Rerolls matter. It's more than raw averages. When you're rolling two dice the chance for a really bad result can fall well outside average. Also, I don't see a reroll strat?

In any case an Executioner used to score 3.92 hits out of 4. Now it gets 1.66 with with its +1 to hit. Even if it still had four shots it'd be 3.33. The downstream impact of that is a 15% drop in damage with just hit rerolls with similar shots (the real drop is 58%).

My major concern is whether or not Leviathans get rerolls. If they do then all bets are off. Then again since they don't have half damage any more and Ironstone is off the table...

CM gives full re-rolls to one CORE or CHARACTER unit. And re-rolls of 1s to hit for CORE.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Rerolls matter. It's more than raw averages. When you're rolling two dice the chance for a really bad result can fall well outside average. Also, I don't see a reroll strat?

In any case an Executioner used to score 3.92 hits out of 4. Now it gets 1.66 with with its +1 to hit. Even if it still had four shots it'd be 3.33. The downstream impact of that is a 15% drop in damage with just hit rerolls with similar shots (the real drop is 58%).

My major concern is whether or not Leviathans get rerolls. If they do then all bets are off. Then again since they don't have half damage any more and Ironstone is off the table...

Some starts I've noticed mentioned on previews/bat reps that seem really strong

Wrath of the machine spirit (or something) Reroll hits for vehicle unit (?)
Being able to move back to dev doctrine for a unit
Having ALL doctrines active for a unit - why... Why... all

These could just have been played/read incorrectly so Im not putting too much stock. But it seems eerily like 2.0 all over again. Doesn't seem so bad until you then see all the trait+doctrine+strat combo wombo ..

Yeah.. We need those codex's for everyone else.
Its still pretty much looks like a wash. A Nerf doesn't mean much if you are still better then most of what everyone else has access to..

yukishiro1 wrote:


Guilliman with tanks hasn't been a competitive list for literally years now, and it certainly wouldn't be competitive in 9th.

I do think Guilliman is making a comeback though with the explosion of Gravis Infantry carrying Assault weapons, with his Chapter Master not being nerfed (so far) - he gives them a bonus inch to their Advance roll offsetting the -1MV from Gravis, they give him Look Out Sir! Plus he's a built in LT. A roving brick of Gravis anchored by Guilliman feels like it might be pretty decent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:

Being able to move back to dev doctrine for a unit
Having ALL doctrines active for a unit - why... Why... all

Tactical Squads. 7 Bolter Marines + Special Weapon gets Tactical, the Heavy dude gets Dev, the Fist Sgt gets Assault.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So why do Deathwing inexplicably ignore those wound rolls?

Because this is the the price you pay for going supplement instead of codex.....all the buffs, all the time. You should be happy now.

 bullyboy wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So why do Deathwing inexplicably ignore those wound rolls?

Because this is the the price you pay for going supplement instead of codex.....all the buffs, all the time. You should be happy now.

You do realize I'm one of the people that has a hatred for the supplements right?

 Argive wrote:


CM does give FULL rerolls to 1x <core> unit.
However, it is my nderstanding he also gives rerolls 1's to everybody anyway? And with max -1 penalty.. that's sort of enough?

One of the things I noticed - and it's a really minor thing that probably wouldnt come up that often but entertains me anyway - the CM picks a unit in the Command Phase, and gives them the ability. They don't have to STAY within 6". So Unit A gets the buff, and splits off to take over Objective A, while the Cappy and Unit B continue on to Objective 2.

 bullyboy wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So why do Deathwing inexplicably ignore those wound rolls?

Because this is the the price you pay for going supplement instead of codex.....all the buffs, all the time. You should be happy now.

They lost Dark Age and some other stuff. I'm not sure how to weigh 1+ 4++ 5+++ terminators who get +1 to hit when charged though. I'll smite the crap out of them, but 3 wounds each....they are 47 points though - not steep, but not cheap.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, the BIG nerf marines got with the new Core thing is that a couple of tanks can't now have access to re-rolls. What a tragedy!

I know you're being sarcastic, but given that one of the most complained about things with Marines was their Guilliman Gunlines with Tanks?

Seems appropriate.

Lol, that built died 3 years ago.

TBF, GW has an image of the meta that IS probably 3 years old sooo

 Daedalus81 wrote:

They lost Dark Age and some other stuff. I'm not sure how to weigh 1+ 4++ 5+++ terminators who get +1 to hit when charged though. I'll smite the crap out of them, but 3 wounds each....they are 47 points though - not steep, but not cheap.

A Natural 1 is still a failure isn't it? I roll a 1 for my armor save vs a AP0 weapon, I still lose, right? Sounds like the solution is what it's (almost) always been. Lots and lots of flashlights. Shoot em for the 1's.

Breton wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

They lost Dark Age and some other stuff. I'm not sure how to weigh 1+ 4++ 5+++ terminators who get +1 to hit when charged though. I'll smite the crap out of them, but 3 wounds each....they are 47 points though - not steep, but not cheap.

A Natural 1 is still a failure isn't it? I roll a 1 for my armor save vs a AP0 weapon, I still lose, right? Sounds like the solution is what it's (almost) always been. Lots and lots of flashlights. Shoot em for the 1's.

They're 3 wounds now. That's 100+ per guy.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

They lost Dark Age and some other stuff. I'm not sure how to weigh 1+ 4++ 5+++ terminators who get +1 to hit when charged though. I'll smite the crap out of them, but 3 wounds each....they are 47 points though - not steep, but not cheap.

A Natural 1 is still a failure isn't it? I roll a 1 for my armor save vs a AP0 weapon, I still lose, right? Sounds like the solution is what it's (almost) always been. Lots and lots of flashlights. Shoot em for the 1's.

They're 3 wounds now. That's 100+ per guy.

What else are your Guardsmen doing? Don't get me wrong, I like the change. Terminators needed something to get them back on the table. Their Achilles Heel has been massed rapid fire basic shooting or choppas etc for quite some time. The thing they were supposed to excel at "tanking". They used to be 3+ on 2D6 and weapons had save mods from nada to -6; so you saved a Lascannon on a 9+ on 2D6. Then they were changed to 3+ (I think?) on 1D6, then 2+(I think?), then 2+ 5++ but ever since their Armor save went to one dice per save they've been out of whack. GW has been trying to fix them for what 7 editions now? They're still even missing something. Bolter Drill helps the Shootinators, but not the Fightinators. The change to 2LC's was probably primarily aimed at the Fightinators.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


They're 3 wounds now. That's 100+ per guy.

It's 200+ per guy in just 3 years. It's kinda sad that Wulfen used to have twice the wounds of terminators and now they have less than them. At least they got their T buffed, although it's basically a compensation for the loss of 3++.

Too bad I've sold my WG termies, they were good before but they're beasts now.

Yep finally looks like Terminators are in a good place for the first time in decades.

As for the not being able to wound deathwing on a 1-3, I am calling mistake right now, that seems to be a mistake OR they are throwing it in there as a playtest rule, I am doubtful it will make it to the codex.

 Formosa wrote:
As for the not being able to wound deathwing on a 1-3, I am calling mistake right now, that seems to be a mistake OR they are throwing it in there as a playtest rule, I am doubtful it will make it to the codex.

I thought we were getting that straight from the codex leaks?

Gonna love some marines getting quantum shielding.