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 Formosa wrote:
Yep finally looks like Terminators are in a good place for the first time in decades.

As for the not being able to wound deathwing on a 1-3, I am calling mistake right now, that seems to be a mistake OR they are throwing it in there as a playtest rule, I am doubtful it will make it to the codex.

That was hysterical. Yeah I doubt it'll last very long. It's going to be CHARACTER Inner Circle or something.

If they do take it away then they should at least give back transhuman strat as an option. Deathwing have been crap for years, it will be great to see them on the table again.

We don't need Transhuman back as a Strat, period. Those kinds of Strats are garbage design.

pothocboots wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
As for the not being able to wound deathwing on a 1-3, I am calling mistake right now, that seems to be a mistake OR they are throwing it in there as a playtest rule, I am doubtful it will make it to the codex.

I thought we were getting that straight from the codex leaks?

Gonna love some marines getting quantum shielding.

n

No, that's straight from the DA FAQ on the GW site.
No leaks, no rumor, just direct game rules.


I suspect it's going to be the 'trendy rule' of 9th edition books. It's part of quantum shielding too, and I suspect it will show up for other 'supposed to be tough, but aren't really' units in books to come.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I have nothing to add, but just wanted to say that these threads you keep creating are very interesting and add great value to the forum, so thanks for that daedalus

I presume this is sarcasm?

I understand why you might feel that way, but it is not. I personally believe that honestly speaking your mind is not just telling people when I believe that they are wrong, but also telling them when I believe they are doing good things. You are in the rare position of being on both sides of the coin

Question for you all - how would you feel about the Inner Circle rule being a 3+, instead of a 4+...? Gives a little more survivability to some of the higher Strength weapons, without being too nuts - albeit, it doesn't do anything against plasma and equivalents, which does seem to be the bane of Termie units at the moment.

 Super Ready wrote:
Question for you all - how would you feel about the Inner Circle rule being a 3+, instead of a 4+...? Gives a little more survivability to some of the higher Strength weapons, without being too nuts - albeit, it doesn't do anything against plasma and equivalents, which does seem to be the bane of Termie units at the moment.

Are all the other rules like it going to a 4+ too? I mean it's Transhuman Physiology that's always on. In theory it's 5 battle rounds, 2 turns per battle round, maybe two turns the first and the last you won't see combat, it's still 8 turns of a 2CP strat that's always on. Per unit. It's insane. Not that I don't love it for my Combi-wing, but it's nuts. It's also a somewhat a lie. The tie breaker goes to the weapon. (attacker's priority pg 362) Something that always wounds on 2+'s will still wound something that can't be wounded on less than 4.

 Super Ready wrote:
Question for you all - how would you feel about the Inner Circle rule being a 3+, instead of a 4+...? Gives a little more survivability to some of the higher Strength weapons, without being too nuts - albeit, it doesn't do anything against plasma and equivalents, which does seem to be the bane of Termie units at the moment.

The things it really screws over is anything with +1 to wound abilities/strays - BA Chapter Tactic and T'au Sept strat are prime examples - due to the inclusion of 'unmodified' - +1 to wound only has any effect if the strength is lower than the toughness of the target and you're generally going to be looking at T4/5 for almost any inner circle infantry, I believe?

sanguine40k wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Question for you all - how would you feel about the Inner Circle rule being a 3+, instead of a 4+...? Gives a little more survivability to some of the higher Strength weapons, without being too nuts - albeit, it doesn't do anything against plasma and equivalents, which does seem to be the bane of Termie units at the moment.

The things it really screws over is anything with +1 to wound abilities/strays - BA Chapter Tactic and T'au Sept strat are prime examples - due to the inclusion of 'unmodified' - +1 to wound only has any effect if the strength is lower than the toughness of the target and you're generally going to be looking at T4/5 for almost any inner circle infantry, I believe?

Meh. On the one hand I get it it's insane. On the other, it's not THAT much different from the Drukhari Poisoned Weapon rule. It's just flowing backwards a little, and results in a little more downside. S4 on T4 was already only wounding on 4+. S7 Plasma was only wounding on 3+. You only lost the one successful roll (not counting modifiers) but Plasma was for the Save Mod not the S anyway. Ironically I think Grav (If you've got it) is the way to go. It feels like they tried to hard to make Heavy Bolters a viable option to Grav, but Grav is still king more often than not, so will squeeze out the heavy bolter when there's an option.

Sidetracked myself but back on track - Grav, Plasma Shuriken Somethings, Power Swords, Lightning Claws, Hellblades, Gatling/Bolt Cannons, Just about every Grey Knight with a force weapon ever, Hot Shot Volley Guns, Vulcan Mega Bolters, Punisher Gatling Canons, oooooh CHEM CANONS! - TL Assault Cannons - Just about everything about Shining Spears, Twin Starcannon. There's no shortage of S4/5/6 -2/-3/-4 weapons on stuff you were probably already taking or might have been taking. It could definitely shift the meta (assuming it lasts, and it's widespread enough to go beyond just DA or DA gets super popular because of it but I think it'd be a mistake to chase DA as a Flavor of the Month.) More if not all of that was already wounding on 4's what little wasn't was either wounding on 5's because it was S3 or a few wounding on 3's.

Breton wrote:

sanguine40k wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Question for you all - how would you feel about the Inner Circle rule being a 3+, instead of a 4+...? Gives a little more survivability to some of the higher Strength weapons, without being too nuts - albeit, it doesn't do anything against plasma and equivalents, which does seem to be the bane of Termie units at the moment.

The things it really screws over is anything with +1 to wound abilities/strays - BA Chapter Tactic and T'au Sept strat are prime examples - due to the inclusion of 'unmodified' - +1 to wound only has any effect if the strength is lower than the toughness of the target and you're generally going to be looking at T4/5 for almost any inner circle infantry, I believe?

Meh. On the one hand I get it it's insane. On the other, it's not THAT much different from the Drukhari Poisoned Weapon rule. It's just flowing backwards a little, and results in a little more downside. S4 on T4 was already only wounding on 4+. S7 Plasma was only wounding on 3+. You only lost the one successful roll (not counting modifiers) but Plasma was for the Save Mod not the S anyway. Ironically I think Grav (If you've got it) is the way to go. It feels like they tried to hard to make Heavy Bolters a viable option to Grav, but Grav is still king more often than not, so will squeeze out the heavy bolter when there's an option.

Sidetracked myself but back on track - Grav, Plasma Shuriken Somethings, Power Swords, Lightning Claws, Hellblades, Gatling/Bolt Cannons, Just about every Grey Knight with a force weapon ever, Hot Shot Volley Guns, Vulcan Mega Bolters, Punisher Gatling Canons, oooooh CHEM CANONS! - TL Assault Cannons - Just about everything about Shining Spears, Twin Starcannon. There's no shortage of S4/5/6 -2/-3/-4 weapons on stuff you were probably already taking or might have been taking. It could definitely shift the meta (assuming it lasts, and it's widespread enough to go beyond just DA or DA gets super popular because of it but I think it'd be a mistake to chase DA as a Flavor of the Month.) More if not all of that was already wounding on 4's what little wasn't was either wounding on 5's because it was S3 or a few wounding on 3's.

Deathwing knights are also relatively cheap and killy. Terminators got a big boost in the marine codex, what with getting to be core and an extra wound and all, and this effect nerfs hard the weapons that benefit from the invul nerf to storm shields.

But really, mouth out how hard it is for any of those to kill a deathwing squad. Then math the reverse.

stratigo wrote:


Deathwing knights are also relatively cheap and killy. Terminators got a big boost in the marine codex, what with getting to be core and an extra wound and all, and this effect nerfs hard the weapons that benefit from the invul nerf to storm shields.

But really, mouth out how hard it is for any of those to kill a deathwing squad. Then math the reverse.

Its not often you see models with a price tag approaching Custodian Guard called relatively cheap.

Until you get to S8/S10 vs T4/T5 You're only losing 16.667% of wound rolls. A power sword is what? 5ish points give or take, army from army? even 2 attacks S3/4/5 vs T4/5 You were already wounding on 4's and forcing/washing the Invuln. What's a Multi-Melta? Overkill and 20+ points for 2 and only 2 attacks while that power sword is as many as you can find on the model? I'm not saying it's not good, I'm saying the meta can shift this into practically irrelevant pretty fast. Its not like DA would be the only army 20+ power sword attacks on a unit might be useful against. I wouldn't even mind if this went to all Terminators in any chapter, even the spikey Terminators in the Legions. All this does is slightly shrink the optimal window for weapon stats. I just looked at most of the codex I could find on the web. Just about everyone has something in this window. Some are better some are worse than others, but they all have something, having to take them in case DA will still find a use for them in case Aggressors, or Heavy Intercessors, or so on and so on. This feels meta shifting not game breaking.

Breton wrote:

stratigo wrote:


Deathwing knights are also relatively cheap and killy. Terminators got a big boost in the marine codex, what with getting to be core and an extra wound and all, and this effect nerfs hard the weapons that benefit from the invul nerf to storm shields.

But really, mouth out how hard it is for any of those to kill a deathwing squad. Then math the reverse.

Its not often you see models with a price tag approaching Custodian Guard called relatively cheap.

Until you get to S8/S10 vs T4/T5 You're only losing 16.667% of wound rolls. A power sword is what? 5ish points give or take, army from army? even 2 attacks S3/4/5 vs T4/5 You were already wounding on 4's and forcing/washing the Invuln. What's a Multi-Melta? Overkill and 20+ points for 2 and only 2 attacks while that power sword is as many as you can find on the model? I'm not saying it's not good, I'm saying the meta can shift this into practically irrelevant pretty fast. Its not like DA would be the only army 20+ power sword attacks on a unit might be useful against. I wouldn't even mind if this went to all Terminators in any chapter, even the spikey Terminators in the Legions. All this does is slightly shrink the optimal window for weapon stats. I just looked at most of the codex I could find on the web. Just about everyone has something in this window. Some are better some are worse than others, but they all have something, having to take them in case DA will still find a use for them in case Aggressors, or Heavy Intercessors, or so on and so on. This feels meta shifting not game breaking.

All terminators are fairly superior to custodian guard. Custodian guard are kinda bad. They sit around on a backfield and take a bit too much to die, but have limited effect on the battlefield anyways.

Terminators get some real choice in their weapon options, better shooting and better melee. Heck terminators hae always gotten better melee options than even custodes terminators, but their toughness buff and the shift in how auras work really benefit terminators here. The holdback was a loss of transhuman, which deathwing now always gets.

I'm not sure why you think the meta will suddenly shift to all power swords, I mean an extremely meta unit is already power swords. You know, bladeguard. But this effects those too now. 16 percent damage nerf is quite strong.

stratigo wrote:


I'm not sure why you think the meta will suddenly shift to all power swords,

I don't. I don't think this lasts that long. But if it did... nor would it necessarily only be power swords. Not all armies have those. But they all have something. I did make that big long list.

I mean an extremely meta unit is already power swords. You know, bladeguard. But this effects those too now. 16 percent damage nerf is quite strong.

I'm not sure it would be BGV, I mean if we're talking equal points (are we talking Deathwing Knights?) 5/10 you're looking at what (around so I'm not posting exactly points costs) 250/500 That's 2.5/5 BGV units. You might see 2, I doubt you'd see 5. 10 Knights vs 4x3 BGV + an ancient (the rounding goes in opposite directions so 5x3 would be way more, while the ancient is about the same less than a full BGV).4x3modelsx3A (36)per + 4x3x1 (12) (Shock Assault) + 3x1(3) (Sgts) 51A hitting on 2's (Ancient Ability) 42.84 hits, 21.42 wounds, 2+-3+1 4+ or 4++ 10.71 saves, 21 damage with some lost to 3W models. Without Transhuman, 42.84 hits, 28 wounds, 14 saves, 28 damage. if the DWK strike first, - 2 squads of 5 so they max Sgt Bonus too - 32 Attacks (24 Mace, 8 Flail) 24, 20, 16.8, 8.4, 24 Damage(with 1/3 lost for a D3 mace = 16 Damage, + 8, 6.72, 4.5, 2.25 4.5 (Flail: None Lost) 20.5 damage. I think Marines would do it with Grav. Figure 60-65% of the 5 DWK cost for Grav Devs. 16 shots, 10.72 hits, 5.36 wounds 2.68 saves, 5.36 damage with some lost. Ratio the points per damage and it's about 8.3 with some lost. You'll get about 3 TwinLC Terminators per 2 DWK - 5 twinLC Terminators will get 26 attacks 2+2 (for LCs, right?) + 1 Shock Assault = 5 per + 1 for Sgt - 26 17 hits 8.5 wounds + 4.25 wounds for rerolls, 12.75 wounds 2+ -2 +1 means armor save on a 3+ 2.8 damage, 3.8 after points ratio. So point for Point BGV will kill 70% of a DWK, 90% of a TH/SS Terminator, Gravs kill 50-60% without getting a strike back, LC Terminators kill 20% of a DWK then get obliterated? 15 Harlequin Troupes is roughly the same cost as 5DWK, 60 attacks 40 hits, 20 wounds, 10 saves, 10 damage, none lost. 3 dead, 1 wounded. Custodian guard will get more than 75% of that, but not much more at BS2 and D3D on the spear. Shining Spears are also a 3 per 2 price ratio and kill not quite 60% of a DWK point for point. You're looking for high rate of "fire" S4/5/6 -3save with multi-damage if you can. High Strength high ROF -3 is both harder to find and super expensive. I used the power sword as an example because it was the cheapest S4ish -3 D1 you can probably find.

As I said it's not like these units - Grav Devs, Shining Spears, Bonesword Warriors - which may be in trouble at only -2 - and so on and so on wouldn't carve Terminators, Heavy Intercessors, or even regular Intercessors to ribbons if there isn't a DA Terminator to be found.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
We don't need Transhuman back as a Strat, period. Those kinds of Strats are garbage design.

Agreed. Anything that makes the already bad wounding table worse needs to go. That goes for Transhuman, VOTLW, the Salamanders super doctrine, etc., etc..

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
We don't need Transhuman back as a Strat, period. Those kinds of Strats are garbage design.

Agreed. Anything that makes the already bad wounding table worse needs to go. That goes for Transhuman, VOTLW, the Salamanders super doctrine, etc., etc..

Agree.. Baking it into units is terrible..

 Argive wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
We don't need Transhuman back as a Strat, period. Those kinds of Strats are garbage design.

Agreed. Anything that makes the already bad wounding table worse needs to go. That goes for Transhuman, VOTLW, the Salamanders super doctrine, etc., etc..

Agree.. Baking it into units is terrible..

No, just it existing in general is pretty terrible. Especially for T4 or less.

pothocboots wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
We don't need Transhuman back as a Strat, period. Those kinds of Strats are garbage design.

Agreed. Anything that makes the already bad wounding table worse needs to go. That goes for Transhuman, VOTLW, the Salamanders super doctrine, etc., etc..

Agree.. Baking it into units is terrible..

No, just it existing in general is pretty terrible. Especially for T4 or less.

Yeah I meant that.. It shouldn't be baked in or be a strategem..

I don't really see an issue with it being a stratagem - you're limited to one use per phase, so only one unit benefits at a time, and it costs you CP to do so - so you're not going to be doing it all game.
Baking it into a unit is a really bad idea unless that unit is paying a points premium for the privilege - and even then, I'd want to limit it to maybe special one-offs like a named character or a LoW.

 Super Ready wrote:
I don't really see an issue with it being a stratagem - you're limited to one use per phase, so only one unit benefits at a time, and it costs you CP to do so - so you're not going to be doing it all game.
Baking it into a unit is a really bad idea unless that unit is paying a points premium for the privilege - and even then, I'd want to limit it to maybe special one-offs like a named character or a LoW.

Its bit like LFR start before modifier cap and re-roll everything...
Anything that makes a unit be able to soak up disproportionate amount of fire power seems a bit gotcha..

I actually would like it. We need more rules like this in the game for slow close combat elite units. My gripe isn't with a couple of terminator units having this, it's why it isn't default for all terminators.
It's not a balance problem, because the DA knights pay quite a bit for this stuff (47 points each, a standard termi is 38 I think), but a fluff problem. Why should the DA termies be this super elite unit and not the wolfguard ones or black templar ones? They are all first companies.

Transhuman probably should have been -1 to wound, not only wounding on a 4+; it makes little sense that being super-human has no effect on normal bullets but makes titan battle cannons bounce off you half the time. That would make it the inverse of vets, and would be a nice thematic duality - CSM more focused on killing, loyalists on enduring.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
We don't need Transhuman back as a Strat, period. Those kinds of Strats are garbage design.

Agreed. Anything that makes the already bad wounding table worse needs to go. That goes for Transhuman, VOTLW, the Salamanders super doctrine, etc., etc..

Are Blood Ravens still valid? I recall they had this and the community went "meh". Am I misremembering some restrictions or something else?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Transhuman probably should have been -1 to wound, not only wounding on a 4+; it makes little sense that being super-human has no effect on normal bullets but makes titan battle cannons bounce off you half the time. That would make it the inverse of vets, and would be a nice thematic duality - CSM more focused on killing, loyalists on enduring.

That makes them scary durable against small arms as well as anti-TEQ though. -1 to wound would be better in every way except when doubling out, right?

Spoletta wrote:
I actually would like it. We need more rules like this in the game for slow close combat elite units. My gripe isn't with a couple of terminator units having this, it's why it isn't default for all terminators.
It's not a balance problem, because the DA knights pay quite a bit for this stuff (47 points each, a standard termi is 38 I think), but a fluff problem. Why should the DA termies be this super elite unit and not the wolfguard ones or black templar ones? They are all first companies.

Knights are 47, but a lot of that is gear and stats (their maces are thunderhammers without the -1 to hit, and they get WS 2+. The WS upgrade (and lack of -1) is costing them 4 points, basically) . But standard DA terminators get it too, and they're priced the same as every other terminator. (Actually, they get a slight discount, as they're priced at 33 but have to pay for their power fists (4x5), which the sgt doesn't have, so he stays at 33), but normal marine terminators are all 38 pts per model, so the sergeant is paying for a power fist he doesn't have)


But in general, I also like the rule. I was pondering what would happen if some eldar units got a similar rule, but for 'to hit' rolls. Not advocating it, necessarily, but tossing it out as an idea.

Voss wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
I actually would like it. We need more rules like this in the game for slow close combat elite units. My gripe isn't with a couple of terminator units having this, it's why it isn't default for all terminators.
It's not a balance problem, because the DA knights pay quite a bit for this stuff (47 points each, a standard termi is 38 I think), but a fluff problem. Why should the DA termies be this super elite unit and not the wolfguard ones or black templar ones? They are all first companies.

Knights are 47, but a lot of that is gear and stats (their maces are thunderhammers without the -1 to hit, and they get WS 2+. The WS upgrade (and lack of -1) is costing them 4 points, basically) . But standard DA terminators get it too, and they're priced the same as every other terminator. (Actually, they get a slight discount, as they're priced at 33 but have to pay for their power fists (4x5), which the sgt doesn't have, so he stays at 33), but normal marine terminators are all 38 pts per model, so the sergeant is paying for a power fist he doesn't have)


But in general, I also like the rule. I was pondering what would happen if some eldar units got a similar rule, but for 'to hit' rolls. Not advocating it, necessarily, but tossing it out as an idea.

I shudder at the screeching we would hear.. My punt is that eldar wil just flat out ignore the -1 cap or something equally stupid.

Oh, yeah. There would definitely be complaints. But it would let bad BS armies function while providing a defensive buff to the army/units.

The big problem its really unintuitive to punish 'good' marksmen over bad ones, even though it could be better gameplay.

But I don't think they'll go to stacking penalties again. It makes a really horrific division between shooting armies that can soak the penalties and shooting armies that really can't, and can't function if they're globally penalized. They're just not fun.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
We don't need Transhuman back as a Strat, period. Those kinds of Strats are garbage design.

Agreed. Anything that makes the already bad wounding table worse needs to go. That goes for Transhuman, VOTLW, the Salamanders super doctrine, etc., etc..

Are Blood Ravens still valid? I recall they had this and the community went "meh". Am I misremembering some restrictions or something else?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Transhuman probably should have been -1 to wound, not only wounding on a 4+; it makes little sense that being super-human has no effect on normal bullets but makes titan battle cannons bounce off you half the time. That would make it the inverse of vets, and would be a nice thematic duality - CSM more focused on killing, loyalists on enduring.

That makes them scary durable against small arms as well as anti-TEQ though. -1 to wound would be better in every way except when doubling out, right?

The thing you're missing is Deathwing get the benefit for free on top of everything else, where the wounding part taking up a whole Chapter Tactic wasn't very good for those W1 models. Then the second half of the tactic was meh. SUPER opportunity cost choosing that route and none of that here.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The thing you're missing is Deathwing get the benefit for free on top of everything else, where the wounding part taking up a whole Chapter Tactic wasn't very good for those W1 models. Then the second half of the tactic was meh. SUPER opportunity cost choosing that route and none of that here.

Fair point

I think the core unit changes make a much bigger difference than people are giving it credit for. Not only did the CM ability change as to what it affects, and how it affects them, but core not including tanks seems like a very deliberate design to prevent something like gladiators or executioners being babysat by a CM to keep playing that Iron Hands castle.

The core units changes seem fine to me. They do seem to reduce some of the silliness of having a spare captain do nothing but babysit some tanks, or to having a chaplain hang back and inspire a tank to shoot better. Or a lieutenant to help the wound better.

I think this book is pretty well designed. hope you all enjoy it as much as we have been looking forward to it locally here!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, I'm surprised no one mentioned that Aggressors lost their double shoot ability.

Plenty have people have mentioned agressors.

The issue is that minor nerfs have the community going "Well except for eradicators, all this is totes balanced now! yay!" And, it's not. Marines remain codex number 1 if you deleted the eradicator entry from the game.

Was there any changes to inceptors? With the nerf to agressors brutalizing everything (good riddance), the assault bolter variant seems like it would be a viable alternative if you want the mobility over the aggressor's melee weapons.