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 Formosa wrote:
Yep finally looks like Terminators are in a good place for the first time in decades.

As for the not being able to wound deathwing on a 1-3, I am calling mistake right now, that seems to be a mistake OR they are throwing it in there as a playtest rule, I am doubtful it will make it to the codex.

I hope it stays and other faction termintors get it too.

Karol wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yep finally looks like Terminators are in a good place for the first time in decades.

As for the not being able to wound deathwing on a 1-3, I am calling mistake right now, that seems to be a mistake OR they are throwing it in there as a playtest rule, I am doubtful it will make it to the codex.

I hope it stays and other faction termintors get it too.

Be careful what you wish for. *laughs in death guard*

The change to DA Terminator surprised me: I've got a Deathwing army that is gathering dust from 4th edition, so, it's really interesting but I'm also inclined to think this will be a brief moment of glory (even if, in my guts, I know DA will be as usual between the last codex to be updated).
Just as a side note: there is a nerf in the Inner Circle (a small but thematic one) that disallow you to Fall Back. Unfortunately, I feel that it's redundant in 9th. Also, all the Ravenwing bikes and characters have the same cap on wound roll (but I suppose with R5 it's slightly less relevant).

Seems like Dark Angel can finally create a decent Ravenwing and Deathwing force. I was particularly surprised by the fact that a lots of options really use very few choices from the FOC.
You can have two Talonmaster for an HQ choice, the Command Squad allows you to include at least two different FNP (Banner and Apothecary) without taking a slot in the Force Organization Chart... a single Vanguard detachment will probably be more than enough for a lot of goodies up to 2000 points.
Also with the limits on minus to hit the era of the Darkshroud came to an end, and as already said the plasma version are now 120 points extremely well used.

Generally speaking, you can build an army to negate secondaries that is extremely mobile and very sturdy: Land Speeder with invulnerable save (5+ or even 4+), very resilient unit (Terminator of Bikes, wounded only on 4+, with a 5+/4+ invulnerable, and a 6++ or 5++ FNP).
You can contest objectives provided some Tactical with Objective Secured is nearby, and thanks to Combined Assault you need a 6" charge (a Drop Pod to inhibit enemy around objective and bring some ObjSec bodies fast will be handly).

I'm not playing during this months due to Covid, but I suspect this is an overcorrection caused by both the further increase in lethality/number of shot and the abysmal results of Dark Angel in tournament.

I also suspect it's a little too much when you consider any possibly interaction mixing this stuff with the Space Marine Codex.
I mean, when was the last time a SM aircraft had an Invulnerable save? (also, here is some kind of loop I don't understand: the Nephilim have listed Jink as abilities, but Jink require the Chapter Tactics, and the model souldn't have it anymore since it's a vehicle... it's some kind of twisted loop in traditional GW style).

I suspect (and to be honest, fear a little) that Dark Angel will be the new Iron Hands (even if for a short time). Maybe they won't be as easy to use (if your opponent manage to cripple the Ravenwing or swarm the table to keep your Deathwing away you will be in serious trouble), but I feel like all this is a little too much.

P.S: I suppone if the Inner Circle rules goes to all Terminator, Death Guard will be nasty, but not so bonkers. You can already give the equivalent to DR to Deathwing. It's more of a meta shift because you can have a unit that is both resistant to anti tanks (wound rule and Invulnerable) and to mass small fire (armor save, FNP and +1 wound).

I didnt see anyone else mention that vehicals no longer get chapter tactics? Fairly sure they still do.

Also the 4+ to wound is keyed to infantry only hence why no-one is talking about bikes with it.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
YES!

Vindicator siege shields exist again after having an edition off, and if you take one now they get +1 to saves against ranged weapons.

Heh, yeah, somewhere deep within the Eye of Terror the Iron Warriors just found something to finally be happy about. Dig it.

So one change that interests me is the one to weapons that used to have the Armourbane rule, e.g. chainfists and dreadnought chainfists. Both got a damage buff: a swingy one against everything that isn't a vehicle and a solid one against vehicles, with chainfists going for D2 to Dd3 against non vehicles and D3 against vehicles, and dreadnought chainfists going from D4 to D2d3 against non vehicles and D6 against vehicles. So a possible 50% increase against non vehicles and a solid 50% increase against vehicles. Think that will be applied to everything that used to have the Armourbane rule? Like maybe a VERY BIG GUN on a VERY BIG TANK available to marines of both the boring and the spiky varieties?

I'm happy about it too, I was planning on getting a vindicator for my warband, so this is good

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
We don't need Transhuman back as a Strat, period. Those kinds of Strats are garbage design.

Agreed. Anything that makes the already bad wounding table worse needs to go. That goes for Transhuman, VOTLW, the Salamanders super doctrine, etc., etc..

Are Blood Ravens still valid? I recall they had this and the community went "meh". Am I misremembering some restrictions or something else?

I wasn't specifically targeting the new DA rules, I was talking about anything that affects the wounding table. The new DA rules are actually less problematic than strategems like VOTLW or Transhuman Physiology, because you already know its there and can plan accordingly. Those strategems, however, can cause "gotcha" moments. When suddenly all those S5 chaincannon shots are wounding your knight on 4s instead of 5s, or your S16 volcano cannon is wounding T4 or T5 primaris infantry on 4s instead of 2s it's not always something you saw coming. It also screws with balance, because how do you balance those S5 guns when for 1CP they can become effectively S8?

stratigo wrote:
Plenty have people have mentioned agressors.

The issue is that minor nerfs have the community going "Well except for eradicators, all this is totes balanced now! yay!" And, it's not. Marines remain codex number 1 if you deleted the eradicator entry from the game.

Community is saying that because it is true.
Except for eradicators, there is no more reason to complain about marines now. They are really well designed and surely solid, but not OP.
They are also not doing particularly well in the unnerfed version at the moment, so what makes you think that they will be number 1 in the post nerf?

If I were to toss my bet on a faction being number one now, it would be sisters.

Voss wrote:

But in general, I also like the rule. I was pondering what would happen if some eldar units got a similar rule, but for 'to hit' rolls. Not advocating it, necessarily, but tossing it out as an idea.

Not a bad idea for things like Harlequinns. One issue is To Hit is more potent than To Wound is more potent than save mods. Another is that To Hit is generally army based not weapon type based. Keeping it To Wound seems better, and you can fluff it as the acrobats twisting to deflect the shot off an armor plate.

Spoletta wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Plenty have people have mentioned agressors.

The issue is that minor nerfs have the community going "Well except for eradicators, all this is totes balanced now! yay!" And, it's not. Marines remain codex number 1 if you deleted the eradicator entry from the game.

Community is saying that because it is true.
Except for eradicators, there is no more reason to complain about marines now. They are really well designed and surely solid, but not OP.
They are also not doing particularly well in the unnerfed version at the moment, so what makes you think that they will be number 1 in the post nerf?

If I were to toss my bet on a faction being number one now, it would be sisters.

Ehh, there are still some power level issues with the Marine dex, even without eradicators. A lot of stuff got fixed, but there are still quite a few things that are outliers that need to be fixed.

 Cybtroll wrote:
The change to DA Terminator surprised me: I've got a Deathwing army that is gathering dust from 4th edition, so, it's really interesting but I'm also inclined to think this will be a brief moment of glory (even if, in my guts, I know DA will be as usual between the last codex to be updated).
Just as a side note: there is a nerf in the Inner Circle (a small but thematic one) that disallow you to Fall Back. Unfortunately, I feel that it's redundant in 9th. Also, all the Ravenwing bikes and characters have the same cap on wound roll (but I suppose with R5 it's slightly less relevant).

Seems like Dark Angel can finally create a decent Ravenwing and Deathwing force. I was particularly surprised by the fact that a lots of options really use very few choices from the FOC.

The DA supplement will be the last Marine supplement, but it’ll also be one of the first four-ish releases.

I’m waiting for the supplement but I’m already playing with Heavy Intercessors for troops (painted bone white). If they get/can get Inner circle/Deathwing fine, if not fine. Fill out with some Termies bikes, speeders, aggressors and Eradicators in a Batallion.

 Sasori wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Plenty have people have mentioned agressors.

The issue is that minor nerfs have the community going "Well except for eradicators, all this is totes balanced now! yay!" And, it's not. Marines remain codex number 1 if you deleted the eradicator entry from the game.

Community is saying that because it is true.
Except for eradicators, there is no more reason to complain about marines now. They are really well designed and surely solid, but not OP.
They are also not doing particularly well in the unnerfed version at the moment, so what makes you think that they will be number 1 in the post nerf?

If I were to toss my bet on a faction being number one now, it would be sisters.

Ehh, there are still some power level issues with the Marine dex, even without eradicators. A lot of stuff got fixed, but there are still quite a few things that are outliers that need to be fixed.

All codici have some power spikes here and there and don't enjoy a perfect internal balance. Even with those though, the codex has a decent internal balance, especially considering the massive amount of choices it has to balance.
For external balance time will tell, but at the moment there are no immediately visible issues (except eradicators).

Breton wrote:

 Cybtroll wrote:
The change to DA Terminator surprised me: I've got a Deathwing army that is gathering dust from 4th edition, so, it's really interesting but I'm also inclined to think this will be a brief moment of glory (even if, in my guts, I know DA will be as usual between the last codex to be updated).
Just as a side note: there is a nerf in the Inner Circle (a small but thematic one) that disallow you to Fall Back. Unfortunately, I feel that it's redundant in 9th. Also, all the Ravenwing bikes and characters have the same cap on wound roll (but I suppose with R5 it's slightly less relevant).

Seems like Dark Angel can finally create a decent Ravenwing and Deathwing force. I was particularly surprised by the fact that a lots of options really use very few choices from the FOC.

The DA supplement will be the last Marine supplement, but it’ll also be one of the first four-ish releases.

Actually, it won't, not even in the first 6. The known releases we know for 2020 are:


Marines, necrons, space wolves, blood angels, death watch, Death Guard, so thats 6 codices and/or supplements. Da's are still going to be early so not a huuuge deal but, in the day of Marine hyperbole I figured it's best to note this

3 redemptors, 3x aradicators, cm/iron father + (hq of choice) and 3 x heavy intercessors or somethig similiar is how I imagine everyone and their mother going to be putting down on the table on the casual...

Thats not even a full list and already i cant see this going very well for a lot of armies..

Seabass wrote:
I think the core unit changes make a much bigger difference than people are giving it credit for. Not only did the CM ability change as to what it affects, and how it affects them, but core not including tanks seems like a very deliberate design to prevent something like gladiators or executioners being babysat by a CM to keep playing that Iron Hands castle.

The core units changes seem fine to me. They do seem to reduce some of the silliness of having a spare captain do nothing but babysit some tanks, or to having a chaplain hang back and inspire a tank to shoot better. Or a lieutenant to help the wound better.

I think this book is pretty well designed. hope you all enjoy it as much as we have been looking forward to it locally here!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, I'm surprised no one mentioned that Aggressors lost their double shoot ability.

A lot of people were hoping CORE was going to reign in Eradicators. No one really worried a ton about the tanks. I'm nonplussed about Dreads as CORE since codex dreads were never a huge problem to begin with.

When Eradicators could have just the melta rifle and one multimelta in a unit of 3 - it seemed manageable. Now that they have a heavy melta rifle for all models and can combat squad a unit of 6 with no other real restrictions it's a bit silly.

Now Eradicators did get weaker by proxy. They can't take on a horde to save their life - especially not things like daemons. Their backup via Aggressors and TFCs got nerfed considerably. The new HI has a much smaller density of shots for troops and the dakka tank has no rerolls. Marine players should in effect be forced to take fewer Eradicators - likely not fewer than before and with better guns - but time will tell.

 Argive wrote:
3 redemptors, 3x aradicators, cm/iron father + (hq of choice) and 3 x heavy intercessors or somethig similiar is how I imagine everyone and their mother going to be putting down on the table on the casual...

Thats not even a full list and already i cant see this going very well for a lot of armies..

Am I missing something that'll make redemptor dreads awesome in this new codex?

 Argive wrote:
3 redemptors, 3x aradicators, cm/iron father + (hq of choice) and 3 x heavy intercessors or somethig similiar is how I imagine everyone and their mother going to be putting down on the table on the casual...

Thats not even a full list and already i cant see this going very well for a lot of armies..

That leaves only about 300 points. How do you play the 5/6 mission objectives? What are the secondaries?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Argive wrote:
3 redemptors, 3x aradicators, cm/iron father + (hq of choice) and 3 x heavy intercessors or somethig similiar is how I imagine everyone and their mother going to be putting down on the table on the casual...

Thats not even a full list and already i cant see this going very well for a lot of armies..

Am I missing something that'll make redemptor dreads awesome in this new codex?

-1 damage and improved weapons

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Seabass wrote:
I think the core unit changes make a much bigger difference than people are giving it credit for. Not only did the CM ability change as to what it affects, and how it affects them, but core not including tanks seems like a very deliberate design to prevent something like gladiators or executioners being babysat by a CM to keep playing that Iron Hands castle.

The core units changes seem fine to me. They do seem to reduce some of the silliness of having a spare captain do nothing but babysit some tanks, or to having a chaplain hang back and inspire a tank to shoot better. Or a lieutenant to help the wound better.

I think this book is pretty well designed. hope you all enjoy it as much as we have been looking forward to it locally here!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, I'm surprised no one mentioned that Aggressors lost their double shoot ability.

A lot of people were hoping CORE was going to reign in Eradicators. No one really worried a ton about the tanks. I'm nonplussed about Dreads as CORE since codex dreads were never a huge problem to begin with.

When Eradicators could have just the melta rifle and one multimelta in a unit of 3 - it seemed manageable. Now that they have a heavy melta rifle for all models and can combat squad a unit of 6 with no other real restrictions it's a bit silly.

Now Eradicators did get weaker by proxy. They can't take on a horde to save their life - especially not things like daemons. Their backup via Aggressors and TFCs got nerfed considerably. The new HI has a much smaller density of shots for troops and the dakka tank has no rerolls. Marine players should in effect be forced to take fewer Eradicators - likely not fewer than before and with better guns - but time will tell.

Wouldn't 3 redempts, and storm bolters be the horde answer ?

3 Redemptors seem like auto take to me now.

 Argive wrote:


Wouldint 3 redempts, and storm bolters be the hord answer ?

3 redemptors seem like auto take to me now.

For sure, but you're talking 540 points. You might be better off with fragstorm since bolter drill is gone. But then we're talking 18".

If you wanted to shoot Orks you'd have 20 AP2/1 shots wounding on 3s and 4 to 7 AP0/1 wounding on 4s for 180. 4 Aggressors would be 38 to 48 AP0/1 shots wounding on 4s. Redemptors are probably better at being aggressors, but then probably suffer more against other Eradicators.

I meant other sources like termies with storm bolters or other platforms lik the flying potato hurricane bolter, dang assult bolter intercessors or whatever...

It amazes me some are people loosing their mind that agressors are trash now and marines without eradicators are just ok now (because aggressors trash allegedly) and that some how space marines don't have answer to hordes all of a sudden.

That you have to make a conscious choice to bring the right unit for a job is baffling to some people..

If most armies got half of those 98 data sheets and rules they be laughing all the way to their paint desks dudes..

 Argive wrote:
I meant other sources like termies with storm bolters or other platforms lik the flying potato hurricane bolter, dang assult bolter intercessors or whatever...

It amazes me some are people loosing their mind that agressors are trash now and marines without eradicators are just ok now (because aggressors trash allegedly) and that some how space marines don't have answer to hordes all of a sudden.

That you have to make a conscious choice to bring the right unit for a job is baffling to some people..

If most armies got half of those 98 data sheets and rules they be laughing all the way to their paint desks dudes..

Meh. I wouldn't say they're trash. I think GW, as usual, overcorrected. They should have removed Fire Twice and kept Advance and shoot without penalty. I think this ended up making Dakka Inceptors better as they are also high volume shooters with a slightly better weapon statline for slightly cheaper - and may or may not get FLY shenanigans. Not that I mind, I usually took one of each. I'd say between the speed and gun statline, plus a marginal points shaving you're still not making a choice. Dakka Inceptors win a straight up point for point mathhammer. Had Aggressors kept Scoot and Shoot then it would have been closer and come down to personal tastes re: Fists vs Fly/speed/deepstrike. For those who need Inceptors, look for Wake The Dead on Ebay. If I remember right those were full kit not ETB - much better looking models( ETB Inceptor feet are UGLY due to single piece grav boot things), plus the Plasma option.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Marines maine nerf came in the form of nerfing their auras. You have to pay points for the chapter master and he only gives 1 unit full rerolls. Core was not necessary. All it does is force list choies. Strangely it's hurting marines a lot less than crons atm.

I know this is off topic, but the Necron CORE restrictions are really annoying, and a bit too restricted if you ask me. They already had restrictions in the past in regards to canoptek and triarch units, but now MOST of their codex is not core. Pretty annoying lack of synergy for so many abilities and stratagems, but the models seem to be points costed effectively for the most part (lulz poor Canoptek Reanimator).

I think some folks are downplaying just how big a nerf losing CORE is for space marine vehicles. The new Gladiator Lancer and the Executioner are poster children for this: they cannot shoot twice, so only 2 shots on the main gun. For the price you pay for these tanks, losing the consistency of rerolls (and in the Executioner ALSO losing half its shots) is too much for them. The only thing they've gained is the smokescreen stratagem, but they've also lost FLY and the repulsor field -2 to charge (moved to strats). They've pretty much gutted them and left their points the same (or higher). You will never, ever take these over Dreadnoughts, unless you just like the models (understandable IMO).

Personally, I LOVE dreadnoughts and it's why I have Iron Hands, so I'm overall net bonus here as I have a bunch of dreads, but it's still a bum deal for non-dread vehicles/tanks. Heck, the only faction for which these tanks are now even remotely viable is Iron Hands, due to their chapter tactic and super doctrine, and even then why would you take these over dreadnoughts who have duty eternal and can smash face in combat?

I like the concept of the CORE keyword mechanic, but some of the units left out need some sort of compensation. In the meantime, I'll be enjoying my march of the ancients up the field

Quasistellar wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Marines maine nerf came in the form of nerfing their auras. You have to pay points for the chapter master and he only gives 1 unit full rerolls. Core was not necessary. All it does is force list choies. Strangely it's hurting marines a lot less than crons atm.

I know this is off topic, but the Necron CORE restrictions are really annoying, and a bit too restricted if you ask me. They already had restrictions in the past in regards to canoptek and triarch units, but now MOST of their codex is not core. Pretty annoying lack of synergy for so many abilities and stratagems, but the models seem to be points costed effectively for the most part (lulz poor Canoptek Reanimator).

I think some folks are downplaying just how big a nerf losing CORE is for space marine vehicles. The new Gladiator Lancer and the Executioner are poster children for this: they cannot shoot twice, so only 2 shots on the main gun. For the price you pay for these tanks, losing the consistency of rerolls (and in the Executioner ALSO losing half its shots) is too much for them. The only thing they've gained is the smokescreen stratagem, but they've also lost FLY and the repulsor field -2 to charge (moved to strats). They've pretty much gutted them and left their points the same (or higher). You will never, ever take these over Dreadnoughts, unless you just like the models (understandable IMO).

Personally, I LOVE dreadnoughts and it's why I have Iron Hands, so I'm overall net bonus here as I have a bunch of dreads, but it's still a bum deal for non-dread vehicles/tanks. Heck, the only faction for which these tanks are now even remotely viable is Iron Hands, due to their chapter tactic and super doctrine, and even then why would you take these over dreadnoughts who have duty eternal and can smash face in combat?

I like the concept of the CORE keyword mechanic, but some of the units left out need some sort of compensation. In the meantime, I'll be enjoying my march of the ancients up the field

Has the signum from iron father remained being able to be used for any unit or just core?
Then that galdiator lancer is hitting on 2+... I mean... Just coz you cant have ALL of them reroll everything does not invalidate them and the fact redempts got such a buff just goes back to the whole "well this unit is clearly OP so its better than everything else so everything else is trash" which we have seen time and time again until the OP SM Unit A gets a slight nerf then the other thing that was trash a few minutes earlier actualy is ok (because its still damn good compared to everybody else..)

 Argive wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Marines maine nerf came in the form of nerfing their auras. You have to pay points for the chapter master and he only gives 1 unit full rerolls. Core was not necessary. All it does is force list choies. Strangely it's hurting marines a lot less than crons atm.

I know this is off topic, but the Necron CORE restrictions are really annoying, and a bit too restricted if you ask me. They already had restrictions in the past in regards to canoptek and triarch units, but now MOST of their codex is not core. Pretty annoying lack of synergy for so many abilities and stratagems, but the models seem to be points costed effectively for the most part (lulz poor Canoptek Reanimator).

I think some folks are downplaying just how big a nerf losing CORE is for space marine vehicles. The new Gladiator Lancer and the Executioner are poster children for this: they cannot shoot twice, so only 2 shots on the main gun. For the price you pay for these tanks, losing the consistency of rerolls (and in the Executioner ALSO losing half its shots) is too much for them. The only thing they've gained is the smokescreen stratagem, but they've also lost FLY and the repulsor field -2 to charge (moved to strats). They've pretty much gutted them and left their points the same (or higher). You will never, ever take these over Dreadnoughts, unless you just like the models (understandable IMO).

Personally, I LOVE dreadnoughts and it's why I have Iron Hands, so I'm overall net bonus here as I have a bunch of dreads, but it's still a bum deal for non-dread vehicles/tanks. Heck, the only faction for which these tanks are now even remotely viable is Iron Hands, due to their chapter tactic and super doctrine, and even then why would you take these over dreadnoughts who have duty eternal and can smash face in combat?

I like the concept of the CORE keyword mechanic, but some of the units left out need some sort of compensation. In the meantime, I'll be enjoying my march of the ancients up the field

Has the signum from iron father remained being able to be used for any unit or just core?
Then that galdiator lancer is hitting on 2+... I mean... Just coz you cant have ALL of them reroll everything does not invalidate them and the fact redempts got such a buff just goes back to the whole "well this unit is clearly OP so its better than everything else so everything else is trash" which we have seen time and time again until the OP SM Unit A gets a slight nerf then the other thing that was trash a few minutes earlier actualy is ok (because its still damn good compared to everybody else..)

Its any Iron Hands keyword unit, but it did change to be +1 to hit instead of a flat 2+

 Formosa wrote:
Yep finally looks like Terminators are in a good place for the first time in decades.

Excellent, because I was planning on taking a 10-man CSM Termie block with a Chaos Lord.

 Conservative Heretic wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yep finally looks like Terminators are in a good place for the first time in decades.

Excellent, because I was planning on taking a 10-man CSM Termie block with a Chaos Lord.

You MIGHT want to wait for your codex to roll around for that.

Breton wrote:


Meh. I wouldn't say they're trash. I think GW, as usual, overcorrected. They should have removed Fire Twice and kept Advance and shoot without penalty.

I disagree, they're still very powerful. 70 shots and power fists on a quite durable but still cheap platform are a bargain. For the same price there aren't many units that can fire that many shots, are that durable and also have punch in combat.

People complain about them because they mostly have marines vs marines in mind, but aggressors are amazing against pretty much every other faction. Not trash against other marines either.

 Blackie wrote:

Breton wrote:


Meh. I wouldn't say they're trash. I think GW, as usual, overcorrected. They should have removed Fire Twice and kept Advance and shoot without penalty.

I disagree, they're still very powerful. 70 shots and power fists on a quite durable but still cheap platform are a bargain. For the same price there aren't many units that can fire that many shots, are that durable and also have punch in combat.

People complain about them because they mostly have marines vs marines in mind, but aggressors are amazing against pretty much every other faction. Not trash against other marines either.

You realize you quote tweeted me saying exactly that? They're not trash? Then tried to imply I said they were trash? Oh wait, of course you did. Because you snipped the entire rest of my argument that explained exactly why they should have kept Scoot And Shoot.

Whole Quote, Emphasis and commentary new, and obviously mine:

Meh. I wouldn't say they're trash. I think GW, as usual, overcorrected. They should have removed Fire Twice and kept Advance and shoot without penalty. I think this ended up making Dakka Inceptors better as they are also high volume shooters with a slightly better weapon statline for slightly cheaper -

Notice no mention of who they'd be shooting at AP1 vs AP0 doesn't really favor an opponent and has the same effect on ALMOST everyone. Notice the emphasis here, lest Blackie try and imply I wasn't aware of 6+/4++ Harlequins or some such.

and may or may not get FLY shenanigans. Not that I mind, I usually took one of each. I'd say between the speed and gun statline, plus a marginal points shaving you're still not making a choice.

Still no mention of Tailoring for opposition army comp.

Dakka Inceptors win a straight up point for point mathhammer. Had Aggressors kept Scoot and Shoot then it would have been closer and come down to personal tastes re: Fists vs Fly/speed/deepstrike. For those who need Inceptors, look for Wake The Dead on Ebay. If I remember right those were full kit not ETB - much better looking models( ETB Inceptor feet are UGLY due to single piece grav boot things), plus the Plasma option.

Still no mention of army comp, though I do admit there was an anti-marine thought in there when it comes to ugly ETB units having less detail in the sculpt.

I think it was a (sadly typical) GW overcorrection as well.

Keeping Advance'n'Fire would've been a fine compromise.

Breton wrote:


You realize you quote tweeted me saying exactly that? They're not trash? Then tried to imply I said they were trash? Oh wait, of course you did. Because you snipped the entire rest of my argument that explained exactly why they should have kept Scoot And Shoot.

I wanted to say that they're are still very very good, close to be an auto take, which isn't what you said or at least it isn't what I though you said. I don't think they have been overcorrected at all, in fact I'd definitely nerf them even more as their stats and damage output are still extremely high for that price.

5 TWC are 250-275 points for a full CC unit. 5 Meganobz are 200 points for a full CC unit, etc... Aggressors IMHO should be less powerful or be +10-15ppm each.

 Blackie wrote:

Breton wrote:


You realize you quote tweeted me saying exactly that? They're not trash? Then tried to imply I said they were trash? Oh wait, of course you did. Because you snipped the entire rest of my argument that explained exactly why they should have kept Scoot And Shoot.

I wanted to say that they're are still very very good, close to be an auto take, which isn't what you said or at least it isn't what I though you said. I don't think they have been overcorrected at all, in fact I'd definitely nerf them even more as their stats and damage output are still extremely high for that price.

5 TWC are 250-275 points for a full CC unit. 5 Meganobz are 200 points for a full CC unit, etc... Aggressors IMHO should be less powerful or be +10-15ppm each.

Brought to you by the same guy who wants to make a Gravis-capable Impulsor with worse guns for twice the price.


Now your 5TWC cav are 225 Base. What upgrades are we giving them to get to 25-275? Plasma Pistols, Frost Swords, Power Axes, or Fists?


Hey wait, at 275 are they TH/SS TWC?


Are we going to count the Mount attacks, or are we hoping to only compare the rider to the Aggressor? Are we planning to just dismiss them as irrelevant when someone brings them up because they don't fit our narrative?

5 Aggressors are 225 and move 5 instead of the TWC 10. Nor do they get an extra 3 mount attacks.