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Spoletta wrote:
It's important to note that 9th edition is progressively getting more hostile toward the MSU style.

First we had LoS rules which punished small units.
Now we have a new RP rule which is countered by big units.
We also have a unit which shoots once for each enemy unit.
Grenades and bombardment effects are getting progressively more deathly toward small units.

I'm seeing a trend.

I'd rather get shot with a Heavy Bolter from the Drop Bunker of Can't Deep Strike than give a Battlecannon full shots.

I'd say we're seeing armies being pushed to one extreme or the other. Either they're being pushed to MSU, or they're being pushed to max blobs. 30 orks probably prefer giving the BC max shots than giving the bunker 3 HB shots. 10 Marines probably prefer to eat two HB's than max BC shots.

Breton wrote:


I'd say we're seeing armies being pushed to one extreme or the other. Either they're being pushed to MSU, or they're being pushed to max blobs. 30 orks probably prefer giving the BC max shots than giving the bunker 3 HB shots. 10 Marines probably prefer to eat two HB's than max BC shots.

This. Large blobs got lots of nerfs since day1 of 9th edition, I'm only seeing some fixes from GW to avoid pushing every army to field MSU style lists on a regular basis.

Indeed. With all my armies, I'll be doing all I can to keep all units under 6 models. It just isn't worth giving free shots away, or having to mess around with coherency.

 Oaka wrote:
You add 1 for killing the model, of course.

Dark Creed Drukhari may have a shot. 5 Incubi and 5 Wracks in a Raider. That would be -2 Ld from the two Coven units, needing equal or greater on the morale test with the Incubi rules. Grisly trophies on the Raider give another small chance for an additional casualty. Killing the enemy warlord yields another -1 Ld and turn 5 Power from Pain an additional -1 Ld.

It could get interesting allying in a Hemlock casting Horrify.

The opponent still only needs 2 CP to auto pass the test if you were to try this with any game-changing expectation.

Nitpick, but Incubi do not count as Coven or benefit from Obsessions.

From IG:
Psychic power terrifying visions for -2 Ld (but not that easy to cast)
Psyan Jackals: each model killed in the shooting phase counts double in the moral phase
=>If you successfully drop TV on 3 Eradicators they drop to LD6 (LD5 without sergant)
=>If your Psyan Jackals kill one: 33% chance that another one runs (50 w/o sergant)
=>If they kill two: 66% chance (83% without sergant)
Not too bad. Can surely be improved by other LD-debuffs.

 harlokin wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
You add 1 for killing the model, of course.

Dark Creed Drukhari may have a shot. 5 Incubi and 5 Wracks in a Raider. That would be -2 Ld from the two Coven units, needing equal or greater on the morale test with the Incubi rules. Grisly trophies on the Raider give another small chance for an additional casualty. Killing the enemy warlord yields another -1 Ld and turn 5 Power from Pain an additional -1 Ld.

It could get interesting allying in a Hemlock casting Horrify.

The opponent still only needs 2 CP to auto pass the test if you were to try this with any game-changing expectation.

Nitpick, but Incubi do not count as Coven or benefit from Obsessions.

Right, I wasn't giving the Incubi the Coven obsession, just their regular rules (which is similar to another -1 Ld). The Raider and the Wracks, being Dark Creed, would be -2 Ld, and the Incubi are there because you actually need something to kill a Primaris marine to cause the morale test! The original post asked for consistency so two 5-man units in a transport seem a lot more likely to reach their target together as a group rather than relying on a bunch of independent units arriving at the same spot unscathed.

I still don't think it's worth giving up any obsession that simply makes it easier to kill more marines for an obsession that makes it more likely to fail a morale test.

 Oaka wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
You add 1 for killing the model, of course.

Dark Creed Drukhari may have a shot. 5 Incubi and 5 Wracks in a Raider. That would be -2 Ld from the two Coven units, needing equal or greater on the morale test with the Incubi rules. Grisly trophies on the Raider give another small chance for an additional casualty. Killing the enemy warlord yields another -1 Ld and turn 5 Power from Pain an additional -1 Ld.

It could get interesting allying in a Hemlock casting Horrify.

The opponent still only needs 2 CP to auto pass the test if you were to try this with any game-changing expectation.

Nitpick, but Incubi do not count as Coven or benefit from Obsessions.

Right, I wasn't giving the Incubi the Coven obsession, just their regular rules (which is similar to another -1 Ld). The Raider and the Wracks, being Dark Creed, would be -2 Ld, and the Incubi are there because you actually need something to kill a Primaris marine to cause the morale test! The original post asked for consistency so two 5-man units in a transport seem a lot more likely to reach their target together as a group rather than relying on a bunch of independent units arriving at the same spot unscathed.

I still don't think it's worth giving up any obsession that simply makes it easier to kill more marines for an obsession that makes it more likely to fail a morale test.

My mistake

In every case I've seen presented here, you'd be better off just bringing more shots instead of LD modifiers and just killing the 1 or at max 2 models you might get from morale.

Space marines aren't immune to morale any more, but it still almost never makes sense to actually do the leadership bomb as a real tactic.