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So before I ask, I am only asking because I just read "Iron Snakes" and it left me....confused. Like in the first part a Single Space Marine initiate just takes down an entire cabal of Drukari "Primuls" and I thought Eldar are supposed to be the fastest race in the galaxy? Did I forget to mention he did it in melee with just a combat knife and a shield? Because he kills 5 faster than the base human he's with can understand what is happening. I know fluff is fluff, and who gives a crap what Abnett does to fluff in books, and "Marines are as fast as the designers want them to be" but literally, is there a metric as to how actually fast they are?

Cue gif of "We've clocked the T-Rex at 85!"

But seriously, are Base Space Marines, Old boys here not NuMarines, comparably to other races? Does that mean the Primaris are even faster? And jesus the Custodes must move faster than it's even capable to see.

Also, are Drukari somewhat like Chaos Marines? Because it all seems very hush hush in the books, like, We don't talk about them....A lot like how no one talks about Chaos....

My understanding has always been that Firstborn Marines' speed and reflexes "rivalled" the Eldar's. It stands to reason that Primaris would be a little faster, but for an initiate to take down 5 Eldar that fast? Serious Mary-Sue'ing going on there.
I could see an argument for the Marine to be able to take them down thanks to hardiness and weaponry, and so on - but not that quickly that the Eldar wouldn't have time to defend themselves.

As far as knowledge of Drukhari goes... they'd be treated by most of the Imperium as "just more Eldar", and only the Inquisition and Marines familiar from having fought them would be able to tell any real difference. In fact, it's addressed in some of the Eldar Codexes that the Drukhari's actions go a long way towards mankind's mistrust of the race as a whole.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So before I ask, I am only asking because I just read "Iron Snakes" and it left me....confused. Like in the first part a Single Space Marine initiate just takes down an entire cabal of Drukari "Primuls" and I thought Eldar are supposed to be the fastest race in the galaxy? Did I forget to mention he did it in melee with just a combat knife and a shield? Because he kills 5 faster than the base human he's with can understand what is happening. I know fluff is fluff, and who gives a crap what Abnett does to fluff in books, and "Marines are as fast as the designers want them to be" but literally, is there a metric as to how actually fast they are?

Cue gif of "We've clocked the T-Rex at 85!"

But seriously, are Base Space Marines, Old boys here not NuMarines, comparably to other races? Does that mean the Primaris are even faster? And jesus the Custodes must move faster than it's even capable to see.

Also, are Drukari somewhat like Chaos Marines? Because it all seems very hush hush in the books, like, We don't talk about them....A lot like how no one talks about Chaos....

Marines are very fast, but on average are not supposed to be as fast as Eldar warriors.

In Angel Exterminatus you have no less than Lucius, arguably the fastest Marine of all the eighteen legions if not the fastest of all time, saying that as fast as they (Astartes) are, they'll never be as fast as the warriors of the Eldar.

Some Marines are faster than others obviously (like Lucius), but on average I'd say it would go like this:

Guardsmen < Spess Mehreen < Primaris =< Aspect Warrior =< Custodes (maybe)

Idk how Kabalites or guardians would compare.

Now this is just talking about raw speed, Space Marines are bluntly much better-trained and skilled than any of the mentioned except Aspect Warriors and Custodes, and have other advantages (except against Custodes) like much strength, durability, armour, and stamina.

That example does sound kind of stupid though, but I haven't read it.

Back when Initiative existed in the game, your standard Space Marine and an Eldar Guardian had the same Initiative score of 4. Dark Eldar Kabalites were Initiative 5, and Wyches Initiative 6. Aspect Warriors ranged from 4-6 depending on the specific aspect and the edition. Ordinary humans (i.e. Guardsmen) were Initiative 3.

Marines are supposed to be faster then normal humans, to the point where it's kinda scary. eldar however are something else. that said, if a Marine gets the drop on a group of eldar he could certainly take down a small group. suprise can be a powerful force multipler.

Space Marines were Initiative 4 which is already faster than normal humans, but the level of normal Eldar Guardians. Aspect Warriors hit Initiative 5. Exarchs, Autarchs, and Wyches 6. Phoenix Lords and Succubi 8. Lelith 9. Avatar 10.

To translate those numbers into narrative terms, I would view 4 as scarily fast, 5 as eye blurringly fast for normal humans (as in their can at best register just a blur). Anything 6 and above I would say as so fast they literally they didn't see what hit them. Think anime style fastness or anime style teleportation like dodging

As a Black Library example, in the final ADB Night Lords trilogy novel, Void Stalker, a Chaos Marine veteran secondary character is facing Jain Zar. The main character watches him try to dodge the expected incoming Silent Death melee strike, and moves faster than any other time in his life, yet it makes no difference and the next thing the main character sees is the dead Chaos Marine.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
In Angel Exterminatus you have no less than Lucius, arguably the fastest Marine of all the eighteen legions if not the fastest of all time, saying that as fast as they (Astartes) are, they'll never be as fast as the warriors of the Eldar.

The problem with this is that it's another Black Library source. So it has exactly as much validity as the example in the original post.
This is why I don't give anything from Black Library any real weight in my headcanon.

 Super Ready wrote:

The problem with this is that it's another Black Library source. So it has exactly as much validity as the example in the original post.
This is why I don't give anything from Black Library any real weight in my headcanon.

Then this thread is bluntly nearly impossible to answer short of using the initiative stat of old, because almost all of the fluff in the actual codices is detached and told in a broad sense. You hear about Calgar defended some wall breach against Tyranids, but you don't actually hear how he did it.

There are exceptions of course but you have to ultimately go with what seems right to you based on the greater context of the setting.

How can all the authors have all the same understanding of the 40K universe.

There must have been some who just take a check to write a book about mega marines that are constantly untouchable.

I really don’t enjoy the books in which the protagonist is so good an powerful that you never get any sense of peril. Is the John Cena effect

I know in Watchers of the throne Valarian (SP?) takes out like 4 Minotaurs in single combat before they even raise their rifles, and then "tests" himself against a Primaris and remarks something disdainful like "Same old same old" or something. I think whoever is writing the book makes them as fast as they need to for poetic effect. In this instance it was from the view of a base human, so it needed to be "Shockingly" fast and violent.

I recall reading about a 30k book where a Marine was able to dodge a bullet at just a few meters distance. So we would be way past super sonic speed here.

Of course, just another BL example and it does not give us anything.

AFAIK there never was any official (read Codex or Rulebook) mention about the speed.

I think the RPG rulebooks from FFG are the closest we can get at the moment, if the have "Speed" as a stat.

It’s also not just about sheer reflexes, but their physical strength and quality of equipment.

Combat blades are monomolecular. Space Marines are near incomprehensibly strong. So, he need only be fast enough to intercept the blow - because chances are, if he blocks you, you’re getting broken bones into the bargain - or his knife is slicing through whatever weapon you used.

Combat Shields? In close quarters, a shield is also used for deflecting enemy blows, and even shield bashing (see Tyrion taking out the Wildling in S1 of GoT, the scene where he first meets Bronn).

Eldar are lithe and fast, sure. But also not terribly strong nor resilient.

Consider. There’s at least some chance I could dive out of the way of say, a charging Rhinoceros. Certainly when it’s going at full speed, I’ll be the more manoeuvrable. But if I even slightly miss time it, I’m taking a nasty hit. No, this is not internet hardman talk. I full well in that scenario only two things would occur - trouser besmirchment, then splutchy deff. But hopefully you’ll see where I’m coming from.

And don’t forget - Astartes are often described as being shockingly fast. As in, looking at their physique, especially in their Power Armour, you’d expect them to lumbering tanks, then suddenly you find yourself getting buttered up the road by someone who was DPS all along!

I recall that back in the dark heresy rpg the Eldar all had unnatural agility as a racial trait. This gave them about twice the reaction speed of trained fighters of similar caliber.

In Path of the Warrior the main character, a Striking Scorpion sees humans moving as if they're in slow motion. When Sapce marines comes along, iirc, the Eldar noticed that they're different because their speed is nearly the same as theirs. They weren't moving as if in slow motion, but were still noticibley slower. Just not so slow that they didnt even have to try dodging or fighting them like with the guardsmen

I think the Youtube series "Astartes" is probably a decent example of space marine speed. Go watch it. It's great.

You need to keep in mind that Plot Armour is a very real thing in BL books. Whoever is the protagonist is going to be superior to the antagonist of the book.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You need to keep in mind that Plot Armour is a very real thing in books.

fixed that for you. I mean let's face it, just about every adventure story tends to involve a degree of plot armor

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So before I ask, I am only asking because I just read "Iron Snakes" and it left me....confused. Like in the first part a Single Space Marine initiate just takes down an entire cabal of Drukari "Primuls" and I thought Eldar are supposed to be the fastest race in the galaxy? Did I forget to mention he did it in melee with just a combat knife and a shield? Because he kills 5 faster than the base human he's with can understand what is happening. I know fluff is fluff, and who gives a crap what Abnett does to fluff in books, and "Marines are as fast as the designers want them to be" but literally, is there a metric as to how actually fast they are?

Cue gif of "We've clocked the T-Rex at 85!"

But seriously, are Base Space Marines, Old boys here not NuMarines, comparably to other races? Does that mean the Primaris are even faster? And jesus the Custodes must move faster than it's even capable to see.

Also, are Drukari somewhat like Chaos Marines? Because it all seems very hush hush in the books, like, We don't talk about them....A lot like how no one talks about Chaos....

This book in particular was so bad I actually stopped reading it. The level of marine absurdity got to be simply far too much for me to deal with, I couldn't stop rolling my eyes and just had to stop.

I would chalk this up to Abnett's overactive imagination and just not think about it too much.

 Mr. Grey wrote:
I think the Youtube series "Astartes" is probably a decent example of space marine speed. Go watch it. It's great.

Agreed. Really great example of what Astartes are capable of.

I'm sorry, Astartes, while amazingly cool, was so fluff it was scary. Not even Astartes are able to tank Autocannon fire. I agree with the above post that states Abnett writes like a total fan boy. But isn't that all Black Library?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm sorry, Astartes, while amazingly cool, was so fluff it was scary. Not even Astartes are able to tank Autocannon fire. I agree with the above post that states Abnett writes like a total fan boy. But isn't that all Black Library?

Yeah, but so is CS Goto who everyone routinely ignores for his crimes against the setting...

You have to take individual BL stories in the context of everything else - there’s always outliers in every direction.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm sorry, Astartes, while amazingly cool, was so fluff it was scary. Not even Astartes are able to tank Autocannon fire. I agree with the above post that states Abnett writes like a total fan boy. But isn't that all Black Library?

Yeah, but so is CS Goto who everyone routinely ignores for his crimes against the setting...

You have to take individual BL stories in the context of everything else - there’s always outliers in every direction.

Speaking of outliers, BR's get a book? Or is that Blood Angels?

It's Blood Angels. It's also an ooooold comic run, being reprinted, not a new one. ...I think it might actually be from before Blood Ravens existed!

Is it just me of is Leonidus (SP?) one of the more over-used names in the 40k SM lore? It seems like there are several in the Blood angels, and their successor chapters. Not saying any of the games are cannon, but I think one of the Marines in DoW is and one of the Ultras in Space Marine is?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not saying any of the games are canon

Fixed it

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Is it just me of is Leonidus (SP?) one of the more over-used names in the 40k SM lore? It seems like there are several in the Blood angels, and their successor chapters. Not saying any of the games are cannon, but I think one of the Marines in DoW is and one of the Ultras in Space Marine is?

Leandros is the Ultramarine one from Space Marine, can see the similarity there. Not sure who you're thinking of from DoW, but nothing rings a bell for being close.

I could have sworn that the jump pack guy had a similar name. Never mind!

In the Space Marine book, Lexandro as a scout on a mission encounters eldar in a jungle or forest and catches up to one mimicing the way it moved as if skating

What makes Primaris faster than firstborn? The muscle coils? Or is it the newer armor?

The *average* Astartes is as fast as an *exceptional* baseline human. An *exceptional* Astartes is as fast as an *average* Eldar. An *exceptional* Eldar is unparalleled. Maybe even faster than a genestealer.