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Ah - none of them showed up in the 2006 catalogue I was looking at on SOL, just the bolt pistol guys and a couple of special weapon dudes.

I did think I'd remembered them, but when they weren't listed...

Point stands, though - if this restriction is meant to mirror released models, someone done goofed.

 Dysartes wrote:
Ah - none of them showed up in the 2006 catalogue I was looking at on SOL, just the bolt pistol guys and a couple of special weapon dudes.

I did think I'd remembered them, but when they weren't listed...

Point stands, though - if this restriction is meant to mirror released models, someone done goofed.

Indeed. The CCM Wiki is where I got those images from, if you want a second source for catalogues of minis.

That scout sergeants can have two thunderhammers or two plasma pistols or more sensibly a combi weapon and a thunderhammer,
They can also combat squad and do sniper shenanigans and pistol at the same time

Ooh, here's something. Psychic powers appear to have types now... didn't spot it reading the powers themselves, only thanks to its mention in the glossary on page 207.
Three types - at least for Marines, thus far - Blessing, Malediction or Witchfire. I don't think these terms actually do anything just yet - I see no mention of them in the Core book's psychic rules, nor does Smite itself have a type as yet.

 Super Ready wrote:
Ooh, here's something. Psychic powers appear to have types now... didn't spot it reading the powers themselves, only thanks to its mention in the glossary on page 207.
Three types - at least for Marines, thus far - Blessing, Malediction or Witchfire. I don't think these terms actually do anything just yet - I see no mention of them in the Core book's psychic rules, nor does Smite itself have a type as yet.

that seems to be the new way GW is formatting for clarity, not a bad touch, basicly it clarifies "this spell buffs you, this spell debuffs them, this spell pew pews with mind bullets"

 Super Ready wrote:
Ooh, here's something. Psychic powers appear to have types now... didn't spot it reading the powers themselves, only thanks to its mention in the glossary on page 207.
Three types - at least for Marines, thus far - Blessing, Malediction or Witchfire. I don't think these terms actually do anything just yet - I see no mention of them in the Core book's psychic rules, nor does Smite itself have a type as yet.

They've had them before. GW does love recycling, and yeah so far it does nothing. I don't remember it doing anything last time either other ranges for Deny or something that ended up being a more convoluted wording.

might just be future proofing

The Hammerfall Bunker is terrifying.

Does the rule of three apply to fortifications? Can you bring 9 of those things and just walk away with the easiest win ever?

I am wondering if double chainsword VV could be a thing. 2 attacks base +2 for the chainsword +1 shock assault makes a hefty 26 attacks AP1 for a unit of 5, even better if you run 6 and add a krak grenade and a meltabomb strat into it. They can blend units and put hurt unto light vehicles.

 Kithail wrote:
I am wondering if double chainsword VV could be a thing. 2 attacks base +2 for the chainsword +1 shock assault makes a hefty 26 attacks AP1 for a unit of 5, even better if you run 6 and add a krak grenade and a meltabomb strat into it. They can blend units and put hurt unto light vehicles.

could be, or run a 4 double chainswords and 1 double lighting claws to give you a guy with a bit more oomph when needed.

 Kithail wrote:
I am wondering if double chainsword VV could be a thing. 2 attacks base +2 for the chainsword +1 shock assault makes a hefty 26 attacks AP1 for a unit of 5, even better if you run 6 and add a krak grenade and a meltabomb strat into it. They can blend units and put hurt unto light vehicles.

I think they've done that sort of permissions before, and they tend to forget and do it again, then decide you only get the one. In other words, I think you can do it, and I think they'll nerf it.

Maybe you can't do it. As near as I can tell there technically isn't a Pistols List. There isn't a Melee Weapons List. Chainsword isn't on the unit points list because it's free. There's no location to find and add a chainsword. Of course, layout for GW books lately hasn't worked the same way my brain does so maybe I just can't find it.

Breton wrote:
Maybe you can't do it. As near as I can tell there technically isn't a Pistols List. There isn't a Melee Weapons List. Chainsword isn't on the unit points list because it's free. There's no location to find and add a chainsword. Of course, layout for GW books lately hasn't worked the same way my brain does so maybe I just can't find it.

Page 195, opposite the bunker.

 Dysartes wrote:

Breton wrote:
Maybe you can't do it. As near as I can tell there technically isn't a Pistols List. There isn't a Melee Weapons List. Chainsword isn't on the unit points list because it's free. There's no location to find and add a chainsword. Of course, layout for GW books lately hasn't worked the same way my brain does so maybe I just can't find it.

Page 195, opposite the bunker.

Sigh. I miss ebook ibook searchable books.

Wakshaani wrote:
The Hammerfall Bunker is terrifying.

Does the rule of three apply to fortifications? Can you bring 9 of those things and just walk away with the easiest win ever?

Why do you think the bunker is bonkers? Isn't it that you only get one fortification detachment with three slots? I have to say I never looked into it that much and detachment rules are not part of my CA rulebook

a_typical_hero wrote:

Why do you think the bunker is bonkers? Isn't it that you only get one fortification detachment with three slots? I have to say I never looked into it that much and detachment rules are not part of my CA rulebook

I think you can only take the detachment once. You can take up to three fortifications per det. Between the footprint and and terrain rules for deploying the bunkers, its going to be very terrain dependent. In my area you can probably land all three, but not in an optimal location. On Planet Bowling Ball you could land all three front and center and absolutely murder anything on the mission objectives. For "Fun games", you probably want to work with your opponent on terrain/scenery placement to provide several landing areas that don't allow too much doubling up etc or predestined here and only here placements, while not making them game breaking.

Yep, the terrain is the big culprit here. On one of our usual table setups, I could probably cover a quarter of the table. Depending on the mission that is 1-3 objectives.

But then obscuring or blocking terrain comes into play.

I like the model, I think it is okay for the points, but it feels very unreliable in its performance.

Breton wrote:
I think you can only take the detachment once. You can take up to three fortifications per det.

Correct - and there's a 1CP cost involved, though that can be refunded via FACTION terrain.

The problem isn't the coverage of the table it's the open spaces. I can only guestimate from the pictures, but the bunker looks to be 4x4 or 5x5 square. About two marines turned on their sides. Add a 3x3 border around that and you're looking at 7x7 or 8x8, possibly even 9x9.

Now supposedly you should average something every 12x12 block. That doesn't mean every 12x12 block should have something but that if you DID split everything up each 12x12 block should have something.

So that big house everyone loves for the Devastators/HeavyWeaponsTeams/etc might actually be 2 or more "pieces" of terrain based on size, and that would give you a landing spot or two for a bunker/etc. somewhere else.

You may want to count the bunkers and other Forts as part of your expected terrain per 12x12 when setting up your terrain too. Especially as more factions get their unique piece.

I also noticed the turret is BS 2+ and ignores movement penalty. Not bad for an autocannon platform. I am wondering if playing 3 is worth it

 Kithail wrote:
I also noticed the turret is BS 2+ and ignores movement penalty. Not bad for an autocannon platform. I am wondering if playing 3 is worth it

It took me a while to figure out you're talking about the Firestrike Turret, not the turret on top of the bunker. Or the Predator? I think? The ignores movement penalty thing is throwing me off. Yeah the Autocannon Firestrike is very interesting. The Lastalon Firestrike is also interesting as a challenge to use at all instead of a how many ways can you use it.

Roughly 150 points for nearly 20 S7 -1 2D shots... I know I'm just begging The Usual Suspects to come in here and complain - but that's pretty tasty. 270 points for 12 24" lascannon shots would be too, except the durability is a little Meh. I just looked again, and it's better than I thought at first glace. But still for a 24 inch range weapon vs both all the 24+ inch flashlights, bolters, pulse rifles etc I think I'd rather have the range.

Eh, it's just the Sicaran's main gun, but without rending, 2 less shots, the high movement, and, most importantly, being mounted to that gorgeous piece of armour. Big Meh.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Eh, it's just the Sicaran's main gun, but without rending, 2 less shots, the high movement, and, most importantly, being mounted to that gorgeous piece of armour. Big Meh.

Its two of the Suppresor's Main Gun. Which should cause people to go back and look at the Suppressor and decide maybe they can have a stand alone kit now.

5 Devs, with 4 HB's will run about 1/2 of XYZ points. Theyll get 12 s5 -1 2D shots, at 4T 5x2W Same cost gets you 16 S5 -3 and either 1D or 2D, 3 of these Turrets are.... not as cheap as I Thought, I just caught myself, I was doing the dumb math with the new pricing structute. You don't get a refund. You don't get AB points back because they didn't take the more expensive talon. You just pay the base price. Sorry still getting used to the sometimes this, sometimes that pricing structure. 3 of these guys are minimum XYZ not XYZ -AB for not having Lastalons. I did it right the first time, but forgot when I did it this time I saw the unit, then did it wrong this time. That's not bad, but its also not good. 3 of them with Lastalons though is more than a Repulsor Executioner. Ouch. Anyway to continue the comparison 3 of these guys get 18 S7 -1 2D for T5 15W and a 2+ - Again not bad, but I'm not sure it's attractive enough to replace other options. Perhaps when/if Primaris get a Pod, and you can fit three of them in a pod. But probably not, I think the old marine pod lost the ability to drop TFC's too.

Breton wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Eh, it's just the Sicaran's main gun, but without rending, 2 less shots, the high movement, and, most importantly, being mounted to that gorgeous piece of armour. Big Meh.

Its two of the Suppresor's Main Gun. Which should cause people to go back and look at the Suppressor and decide maybe they can have a stand alone kit now.

5 Devs, with 4 HB's will run about 1/2 of XYZ points. Theyll get 12 s5 -1 2D shots, at 4T 5x2W Same cost gets you 16 S5 -3 and either 1D or 2D, 3 of these Turrets are.... not as cheap as I Thought, I just caught myself, I was doing the dumb math with the new pricing structute. You don't get a refund. You don't get AB points back because they didn't take the more expensive talon. You just pay the base price. Sorry still getting used to the sometimes this, sometimes that pricing structure. 3 of these guys are minimum XYZ not XYZ -AB for not having Lastalons. I did it right the first time, but forgot when I did it this time I saw the unit, then did it wrong this time. That's not bad, but its also not good. 3 of them with Lastalons though is more than a Repulsor Executioner. Ouch. Anyway to continue the comparison 3 of these guys get 18 S7 -1 2D for T5 15W and a 2+ - Again not bad, but I'm not sure it's attractive enough to replace other options. Perhaps when/if Primaris get a Pod, and you can fit three of them in a pod. But probably not, I think the old marine pod lost the ability to drop TFC's too.

Ok, so suppressors each have half the Sicaran's main gun minus rend, etc., etc.. I'd still prefer the assault version mounted on the wicked fast and sweet looking tank. But you do you. And I thought you preferred mobility in your units.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Ok, so suppressors each have half the Sicaran's main gun minus rend, etc., etc.. I'd still prefer the assault version mounted on the wicked fast and sweet looking tank. But you do you. And I thought you preferred mobility in your units.

I prefer Mobility on my melta units.

And I said people, not just me.

Which should cause people to go back and look at the Suppressor and decide maybe they can have a stand alone kit now

Plus Suppressors are those Vanguard Jump troops. They have mobility.

I think people are still stuck in the 8th way of winning missions and once covid ends and peop,e actually get to get some games in their perceptions of units will change.

What really stood out to me was that I will definitely be taking at least two infiltrator units every game. The amount of board control they provide can’t be denied.

Same with Servitors. For 30 points they give us objectives/area denial/scramblers and the like, something sorely missed from marine lists since we are much more expensive now with fewer bodies.

Breton wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Ok, so suppressors each have half the Sicaran's main gun minus rend, etc., etc.. I'd still prefer the assault version mounted on the wicked fast and sweet looking tank. But you do you. And I thought you preferred mobility in your units.

I prefer Mobility on my melta units.

And I said people, not just me.

Which should cause people to go back and look at the Suppressor and decide maybe they can have a stand alone kit now

Plus Suppressors are those Vanguard Jump troops. They have mobility.

Yeah, I know. I thought the passing reference to them was just in reference to where the turret got its guns from. I was comparing the Sicaran to the turret, which your stream of consciousness paragraph was about. Sorry for the confusion.

And those "jump troops" are almost as goofy looking as the "ATV" (those boots!).

 Gadzilla666 wrote:


Yeah, I know. I thought the passing reference to them was just in reference to where the turret got its guns from. I was comparing the Sicaran to the turret, which your stream of consciousness paragraph was about. Sorry for the confusion.

And those "jump troops" are almost as goofy looking as the "ATV" (those boots!).

Yeah the Sicarran is going to be interesting now that there's "main" book Accelerator Autocannons (and Twins). Do they conform, stay a seperate same name different stat line, or do they become "Sicarran Twin Acce..." well you get the idea - STAC's.

You should see the ETB Inceptors. I absolutely hate those boots.

The Sergeant having a freaking SCOPE on his Hip Fired Autocannon is funnier than the bellbottom cowboy booster boots.

But rules wise they did get a pretty decent fix even with a roughly 20% price bump. or 2% decrease or single point per 3 increase depending on where you get the points costs from and how (Their points costs are all over the board) - but they fell pretty flat pretty hard on release. Trading 1 AP for an extra shot, plus getting a boost to their somewhat situational special rule to on hit vs on casualty gives them a niche you can defend taking them from.

2 sets of 3 Suppresors are 75% of the cost of 3 Turrets with TAACs. With some durability issues going both directions.

If we assume for the sake of argument/hypothesizing the Sicarran conforms instead of staying the same/seperate: It's a Relic in the Elite slot, Suppressors are in the FA slot, and the Turrets are in the HS slot. There are probably worse ideas than overdosing on the Accelerator Autocannon. That'll net you 21 Accelerator Autocannons - 63 S7 -1 2D shots - for about 1100-1200 points plus a bunch of Heavy bolter shots, another 27 or so S5 -1 2D shots, (Assuming 1 FOC of 3 Turrets - they are kind of expensive) Pack the Troops slot with Assault Intercessors to get your close combat and obsec. You need a few non Relic Elites to unlock the Sics. Potentially some anti-tank (Combi grav + 2 Heavy Grav Sternguard?) or more close combat. It's not a bad list and Grav + Rail Guns called Autocannon fit the "theme" you could be going for. It doesn't sound bad at all.

 Leth wrote:
I think people are still stuck in the 8th way of winning missions and once covid ends and peop,e actually get to get some games in their perceptions of units will change.

What really stood out to me was that I will definitely be taking at least two infiltrator units every game. The amount of board control they provide can’t be denied.

Same with Servitors. For 30 points they give us objectives/area denial/scramblers and the like, something sorely missed from marine lists since we are much more expensive now with fewer bodies.

\
you figure on 5 or ten man infiltrator squads BTW?

Breton wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:


Yeah, I know. I thought the passing reference to them was just in reference to where the turret got its guns from. I was comparing the Sicaran to the turret, which your stream of consciousness paragraph was about. Sorry for the confusion.

And those "jump troops" are almost as goofy looking as the "ATV" (those boots!).

Yeah the Sicarran is going to be interesting now that there's "main" book Accelerator Autocannons (and Twins). Do they conform, stay a seperate same name different stat line, or do they become "Sicarran Twin Acce..." well you get the idea - STAC's.

You should see the ETB Inceptors. I absolutely hate those boots.

The Sergeant having a freaking SCOPE on his Hip Fired Autocannon is funnier than the bellbottom cowboy booster boots.

But rules wise they did get a pretty decent fix even with a roughly 20% price bump. or 2% decrease or single point per 3 increase depending on where you get the points costs from and how (Their points costs are all over the board) - but they fell pretty flat pretty hard on release. Trading 1 AP for an extra shot, plus getting a boost to their somewhat situational special rule to on hit vs on casualty gives them a niche you can defend taking them from.

2 sets of 3 Suppresors are 75% of the cost of 3 Turrets with TAACs. With some durability issues going both directions.

If we assume for the sake of argument/hypothesizing the Sicarran conforms instead of staying the same/seperate: It's a Relic in the Elite slot, Suppressors are in the FA slot, and the Turrets are in the HS slot. There are probably worse ideas than overdosing on the Accelerator Autocannon. That'll net you 21 Accelerator Autocannons - 63 S7 -1 2D shots - for about 1100-1200 points plus a bunch of Heavy bolter shots, another 27 or so S5 -1 2D shots, (Assuming 1 FOC of 3 Turrets - they are kind of expensive) Pack the Troops slot with Assault Intercessors to get your close combat and obsec. You need a few non Relic Elites to unlock the Sics. Potentially some anti-tank (Combi grav + 2 Heavy Grav Sternguard?) or more close combat. It's not a bad list and Grav + Rail Guns called Autocannon fit the "theme" you could be going for. It doesn't sound bad at all.

According to CA2020 Sicarans are once again HS, though we'll have to wait for the Compendium to see if that's right. As for the Relic rule: that's not currently a problem for csm, we can have all the Hellforged we want. So they at least got that one right, those things aren't relics for the Legions, they're just the stuff they took with them into The Eye. Of course our only other sources for accelerator cannons are Fellblades, and yeah well, damned CA2018....

And no marine should have a scope on their weapon. Their optics are built into their helmets. That's just gw trying to make things look "tacticool".

BrianDavion wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I think people are still stuck in the 8th way of winning missions and once covid ends and peop,e actually get to get some games in their perceptions of units will change.

What really stood out to me was that I will definitely be taking at least two infiltrator units every game. The amount of board control they provide can’t be denied.

Same with Servitors. For 30 points they give us objectives/area denial/scramblers and the like, something sorely missed from marine lists since we are much more expensive now with fewer bodies.

\
you figure on 5 or ten man infiltrator squads BTW?

They will always be in 5 man units so I don’t see why I would give up the extra sgt and potentially helix upgrade. They are there for area Denial. What is most important for that is more units rather than more bodies.