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Command Phase:
Players roll off, the winner going first, then alternate any Command Phase effects they have.

Action Phase:
1. Each player puts a token into a bag for each unit they control (whether they are on the battlefield or not).
2. A random token is drawn from the bag.
3. Whoever's token is drawn may choose to remove an additional token of theirs from the bag.
4. Whoever drew the token may then activate one unit, completing their entire turn structure minus the morale phase. (The unit moves/arrives as reinforcements, uses psychic powers, shoots, charges, and fights.)
5a. If you removed an additional token, and if you activated a non-CHARACTER unit with your first token, they activate a CHARACTER unit in the same manner.
5b. If you removed an additional token, and if you activated a CHARACTER unit with your first token, they activate a non-CHARACTER unit in the same manner.
6. The other player may then remove one or two tokens of theirs from the bag (if any are remaining), and activate their units in the same manner as previously detailed in steps 3 though 6.
7. Repeat this process from step 2 until all units have been activated.

Morale Phase:
Morale Tests are taken for units required to take Morale Tests.

If a unit is activated that, for some reason, cannot make any actions (e.g. you activate a Terminator Squad unit placed in a Teleportarium and it's the first battle round), then that activation still is used, the unit simply doesn't do anything useful.

Units that arrive from somewhere not on the battlefield (e.g. Strategic Reserves or via a rule such as Teleport Strike) can be activated as normal, it's just that they will do nothing during their movement phase and arrive during the Reinforcements step).

Casualties are removed as normal (i.e. as soon as the attacks are resolved.)

Not a bad way to go. having a unit do its full turn avoids a lot of the pitfalls of many AA systems. Using the bag (rather than just alternating turns) has its own pros and cons.

PROS
* Armies with only a handful of very powerful units are unlikely to get back-to-back activations. If we were taking turns activating, my MSU army would only get a fraction of its attacks in before my opponent's 3 imperial knight army had hit me with everything it had. The bag makes it much more likely that a big chunk of my army will get to go before any of his does.

* Activating a character alongside a non-character fixes a lot of the issues AA systems tend to have with character activation.

CONS
* There is a non-zero chance that one player will get to make multiple back-to-back activations. If you and I are both fielding 10-15 units, then it's not that unlikely one of us will get lucky and get to activate a bunch of units every once in a while. In fact, it's likely that this will happen at some point over X games (haven't done the math to determine how many game turns on average.) While normal 40k rules basically take this to an extreme anyway, the expectation that your opponent will get to activate his entire army combined with the ability to activate all of your own units back to back means that players can generally try to position themselves to deal with their opponent's upcoming turn.

* I worry that it might be tricky to track which units have and haven't activated. If we each have about 12 units in our army, that's 24 units we have to remember as having "activated" on turn 1. And without a big "landmark" like your own player turn to mentally separate out all those activations, it seems easy to lose track without counters. Which you could use, but then you're dealing with 24 counters on turn 1.

But it's one of the better AA pitches I've seen. I'd play it.

EDIT: Small thing: it's important to have rules determining what order morale tests are taken in. If I lose a unit of night lords to morale, for instance, your unit might no longer suffer the -1 Ld penalty they were imposing and pass morale when you otherwise would have failed.

I get that you might be able to get back to back activations but since it's random it should even out.

My suggestion would just to put a token next to a unit that has been activated.

I guess a rule is needed to remove tokens when units are destroyed too.

I would elaborate on how transports work, particularly for those that carry multiple units.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

4. Whoever drew the token may then activate one unit, completing their entire turn structure minus the morale phase. (The unit moves/arrives as reinforcements, uses psychic powers, shoots, charges, and fights.)

So if I choose not to activate a unit, does the token go back in the bag, or do I lose an activation this battle round?

 Kcalehc wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

4. Whoever drew the token may then activate one unit, completing their entire turn structure minus the morale phase. (The unit moves/arrives as reinforcements, uses psychic powers, shoots, charges, and fights.)

So if I choose not to activate a unit, does the token go back in the bag, or do I lose an activation this battle round?

Good catch. In this case you'd lose the activation because you chose to pass the turn. Not sure why you'd want to do this but it's an option.

What about just having it work such that you activate 25% of your units, then your opponent does 25% and so on.

Players with more units overall would activate more units in a given step, but they probably have greater need to coordinate movements in such cases. It keeps it more balanced because it evens out disparities in the number of units. Players are moving a more equivalent % of force strength each time.

You could also do something where casualties are not removed until the end of a set of activations (one group of units per player). This would simulate more simultaneous action.

 Mezmorki wrote:
What about just having it work such that you activate 25% of your units, then your opponent does 25% and so on.

Players with more units overall would activate more units in a given step, but they probably have greater need to coordinate movements in such cases. It keeps it more balanced because it evens out disparities in the number of units. Players are moving a more equivalent % of force strength each time.

You could also do something where casualties are not removed until the end of a set of activations (one group of units per player). This would simulate more simultaneous action.

Still a significiant issue for Alpha strikes in this.
Assume that 25 % of 2000 is 500 that is more then enough to deepstrike in a obliterator bomb cacophony without reaction and the psyker needed to do so.

Maybe 8th + 9th is different, but you can't deep strike on your first turn?

 Mezmorki wrote:
Maybe 8th + 9th is different, but you can't deep strike on your first turn?

You can bring Strategic Reserves on the first turn IIRC, but not things like Terminators Teleport strike.

I would a transported Unit and the transporting Unit as an option of 2 Token activation to have the possibility to enter a transport and than move with it

 Mezmorki wrote:
What about just having it work such that you activate 25% of your units, then your opponent does 25% and so on.

Players with more units overall would activate more units in a given step, but they probably have greater need to coordinate movements in such cases. It keeps it more balanced because it evens out disparities in the number of units. Players are moving a more equivalent % of force strength each time.

I pitched something like this a while back. The idea was that you broke your army up into "fire teams" at list creation, and each fire team could only be X% of your total points or power level. There were minimums on the points/PL of a fire team, but you could potentially end up with some units in very small onesie twosie fire teams. Those were required to activate after all the "real" fire teams so that you couldn't, for instance, activate a bunch of 1PL lhameans to force your opponent to commit before striking with a beefy trio of ravagers.

The most fiddly part was keeping track of which units were in a given fireteam. At the time, I think I pitched an apoc-like rule for having units stay near a designed team leader, but it wasn't ideal.

It would be important to base the number of units activated off of their points or PL. Otherwise, you could just activate all of your strongest units at a key moment. 3 ravagers and 3 lhameans are both 3 units, but the ravagers are much more lethal.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
I would a transported Unit and the transporting Unit as an option of 2 Token activation to have the possibility to enter a transport and than move with it

Here's a tricky one: how do you handle open-topped transports? If I've got two squads of kabalite warriors in a raider, I really want to shoot the warriors as part of the raider's activation. Moving up the raider (getting within 18" of something to use blasters) and then having to wait before shooting makes them really vulnerable to getting shot before they shoot, being charged so that they can't shoot, or the target they wanted to shoot at might simply scoot out of range.

Would it be unreasonable to remove extra activation tokens from the bag to shoot with embarked units? So I spend 1 token to activate the raider, then remove an extra 2 from the bag to immediately activate the squads inside the raider?

I would keep it to 2 activations
because otherwise the same argument comes up with 1 unit, 1 character and 1 transport or 1 units and 2 characters and so on

yet having the option to activate both units inside the transport, or the transport and 1 unit gives enough options for tactical decisions without making everything at once possible

otherwise you could use a different system like:
activate first unit, roll a D6, on a 4+ you can activate another unit, roll again and on 6 you activate a 3rd unit
now pass to your opponent, repeat until all units were activated once

or roll a D3 to determine how many units you can activate

I had suggested in the other thread that players just be able to activate 1, 2 , or 3 units at a time, with the stipulation that you if you start your turn with 3 units or less, you only activate one unit at a time.

Alternatively I like the approach where in your activation phase you can activate 1/3 of your army at time. This applies to models inside transports or off the table, where you can activate them in order to "do nothing" if so inclined.

Couple this with "simultaneous" damage resolution where casualties aren't removed from you units (or vehicle damage applied) until the end of your next activation. Meaning that you basically get a chance to react "simultaneously" - if you want - on your next activation.

You could still have an over watch type state of readiness that lets you do certain things (return fire first or shoot at a charging unit first) - but this would require you to first activate the unit and give them that order.

The above seems pretty clean to me.

 kodos wrote:
I would keep it to 2 activations
because otherwise the same argument comes up with 1 unit, 1 character and 1 transport or 1 units and 2 characters and so on

yet having the option to activate both units inside the transport, or the transport and 1 unit gives enough options for tactical decisions without making everything at once possible

Well, that would still be a nerf for the 2 kabalite warrior squads in a raider example. If you activate the raider to move it forward and then immediately activate one of the squads inside, that's well and good for that squad. But by the time the second squad activates, your opponent may have charged the raider or moved your only good blaster target out of blaster range, etc.

There's maybe an argument that such a nerf is just an acceptable thing and you eventually lower kabalite points or create special rules to compensate, but it is a significant nerf.

otherwise you could use a different system like:
activate first unit, roll a D6, on a 4+ you can activate another unit, roll again and on 6 you activate a 3rd unit
now pass to your opponent, repeat until all units were activated once

or roll a D3 to determine how many units you can activate

I feel those would have significant disadvantages compared to the bag method without a lot of advantages over it. You'd still end up with the potential for one player to activate all three of their most killy units back-to-back. Small unit count armies (think imperial knights) would have a good chance of activating their entire force before an MSU army could use half its toys. You'd lose the nifty bit where the army with more units is statistically likely to get multiple activations between each of the other army's activations (until the number of each players' tokens in the bag became relatively even).

And not to make the whole conversation revolve around this very specific example, but it still wouldn't help the 2 squads in an open-topped transport situation much. You'd only have what? A 1 in 12 of activating the 2nd squad in the raider before your opponent had a chance to react and neutralize the squad's effectiveness? Interesting ideas though. I like where your head's at.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 kodos wrote:
I would keep it to 2 activations
because otherwise the same argument comes up with 1 unit, 1 character and 1 transport or 1 units and 2 characters and so on

yet having the option to activate both units inside the transport, or the transport and 1 unit gives enough options for tactical decisions without making everything at once possible

Well, that would still be a nerf for the 2 kabalite warrior squads in a raider example. If you activate the raider to move it forward and then immediately activate one of the squads inside, that's well and good for that squad. But by the time the second squad activates, your opponent may have charged the raider or moved your only good blaster target out of blaster range, etc.

There's maybe an argument that such a nerf is just an acceptable thing and you eventually lower kabalite points or create special rules to compensate, but it is a significant nerf.

the main argument is a more general thing as with Alt-Actions having more units is always a big advantage
adding another advantage for multiple activations of MSU is a big problem here

adding 2 activations for transported units is already a big buff over the default system for factions that can to it, but it also brings a little bit balance back as here taking 1 big unit, over 2 small ones is the better option and so you have to balance it out for your own list

I feel those would have significant disadvantages compared to the bag method without a lot of advantages over it. You'd still end up with the potential for one player to activate all three of their most killy units back-to-back. Small unit count armies (think imperial knights) would have a good chance of activating their entire force before an MSU army could use half its toys.

which is something that the Knight army does not want to do
having a lot activations early in the game is a disadvantage while multiple activations is an advantage
so its more like of taking the risk to activate everything early on instead waiting to have the last activations while someone with more units is more likely to spend those as he has enough to keep some of them behind

the result on the table is most of the time the same except when players start to take risks, that can be rewarding or lose them the game

for a system were up to 3 activations are possible I would go alternating dice rolling intead as it makes it easier with a similar result

You could make it so that each activation token could activate x points worth of models. You could skip an activation to draw another token allowing a bigger but 'slower' burst of activity.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
You could make it so that each activation token could activate x points worth of models. You could skip an activation to draw another token allowing a bigger but 'slower' burst of activity.

Crazy Idea that I hate by definition because it involves power levels... but what if you alternated generating an "activation point" each turn and then could spend those points to activate a unit of the spent points power level on your turn after you generate a point? That way you could save up tokens to activate a transport+unit or character+unit?

The concept of "take their entire turn" is ambiguous when you get to the fight phase, because units currently get to do stuff in fight phase outside of their player's turn.

So what does a unit do during "their" fight phase, and what do they do outside of it?

the original idea in 40k was a reaction based system
units react to what happend to them, hence striking back in melee was the reaction to the charge

if you go full alt-action, striking back in melee should not be there as this come on its own with the activation of the other unit

same games come around the disadvantages that only not-activated units can strike back (and are marked as activated after that) and already activated units just make less effective melee attack

 solkan wrote:
The concept of "take their entire turn" is ambiguous when you get to the fight phase, because units currently get to do stuff in fight phase outside of their player's turn.

So what does a unit do during "their" fight phase, and what do they do outside of it?

They pile in, fight, consolidate like normal? The enemy unit only gets to "swing back" when they activate. Yeah, I get that Heroic Interventions don't work in this system, something I'd need to consider.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 solkan wrote:
The concept of "take their entire turn" is ambiguous when you get to the fight phase, because units currently get to do stuff in fight phase outside of their player's turn.

So what does a unit do during "their" fight phase, and what do they do outside of it?

They pile in, fight, consolidate like normal? The enemy unit only gets to "swing back" when they activate. Yeah, I get that Heroic Interventions don't work in this system, something I'd need to consider.

I'm probably missing something obvious. How do heroic interventions not work? If you're trying to buff a unit with a character's aura, he's probably standing next to them at the time they get charged. And when that unit activates, you'd theoretically just also activate the character (by removing an extra token) so that he can charge in and fight alongside the unit itself.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 solkan wrote:
The concept of "take their entire turn" is ambiguous when you get to the fight phase, because units currently get to do stuff in fight phase outside of their player's turn.

So what does a unit do during "their" fight phase, and what do they do outside of it?

They pile in, fight, consolidate like normal? The enemy unit only gets to "swing back" when they activate. Yeah, I get that Heroic Interventions don't work in this system, something I'd need to consider.

I'm probably missing something obvious. How do heroic interventions not work? If you're trying to buff a unit with a character's aura, he's probably standing next to them at the time they get charged. And when that unit activates, you'd theoretically just also activate the character (by removing an extra token) so that he can charge in and fight alongside the unit itself.

I guess if the Character is in HI distance when they end their charge phase, they can saunter on into combat without needing to roll or triggering on charge effects.

For Transports, what would the issue be?

Either you activate the transport with your first token, meaning the unit inside can't disembark, or you activate the unit inside with your first token, disembark and then do whatever, then activate the transport later.

The only issue I can see is open topped, and that is easily solved:

1: When a transport activates, units inside can shoot out as if it were their activation.
2: Units may not disembark from a transport which has already activated this round.

So you can't sit still, shoot out, then activate to disembark and shoot again. You can however move a vehicle, shoot out, then charge the vehicle forward without preventing the unit inside from doing anything.

Regarding the Heroic Intervention, you could allow a character to activate again purely to heroically intervene. It would mean that you are losing an activation token, so if you have lost no units this turn then you might have to weigh it up. But then again, if you lose nothing in your turn, then you probably need the handicap of having to choose.

So if you start your turn and are in HI distance with a character, then the character can be activated with a token to just heroically intervene and then fight. Though this raises further issues in that the character might end up fighting multiple times...

That said, being AA would make HI less needed anyway. Either the hero was busy doing other things this turn (already activated) or they can move, psych, shoot and then charge instead of just heroically intervening. HI is only needed to stop people cherry-picking their way between characters, which isn't so much of an issue in AA. If you want your chargey character to intervene heroically, save them for the end of the turn and they can.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 solkan wrote:
The concept of "take their entire turn" is ambiguous when you get to the fight phase, because units currently get to do stuff in fight phase outside of their player's turn.

So what does a unit do during "their" fight phase, and what do they do outside of it?

They pile in, fight, consolidate like normal? The enemy unit only gets to "swing back" when they activate. Yeah, I get that Heroic Interventions don't work in this system, something I'd need to consider.

The issue with this is currently a unit can fight twice per battle round, in their Fight phase, and their opponents Fight phase, if they are engaged through both. In your system they get to only fight once, which will severely reduce the damage output of units dedicated to melee. Also making a unit that charged, even if its a dedicated melee unit, a prime target for counter charges, as I know they cannot fight back immediately.

Something like: When a unit is the target of combat attacks in an opposing units Fight Phase, it may retaliate with attacks of its own, once per round.

What @Kcalehc said.

If you look at a round of 40k, a unit gets to act twice, once in each of the fight phases. The unit gets to go through the whole fight sequence in each player's turn.

If you bring heroic intervention into the discussion, that's more like some units getting to act twice in the Charge phase. In their normal turn, they can charge. In the other player's turn, they can use heroic intervention. (Heroic Intervention ending up being something more like a counter-charge than a charge, since there are more restrictions to do it, but still less restrictions once you've done it and many abilities that give bonus after a charge also give the same bonus for 'heroically intervening'.)

Going from 40k's "Everybody fights" IGOUGO to a plain vanilla alternating activation system, you do end up provoking the response "What do you mean I just stand there and don't get to fight back?" If you've gotten used to Heroic Intervention, then you add in "What do you mean, my heroes just stand back and watch?"

For melee forces, that ends up being sort of important.

Edit (revised twice): It occurs to me that you could get some of the effect by changing the sequence to:
- Fight. For this first fight sequence, you only get to move into contact with a new opponent if you'd get to perform Heroic Intervention in the IGOUGO rules.
- Move
- Shoot
- Charge
- Fight.

That seems to be more in line with 40k's extra fighting phases.