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2020/10/20 09:27:06
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Can drop pods stil arrive turn one?
Old wording: "Matched Play: This model and any units embarked aboard it are exempt from the Tactical Reserves matched play rule, except that if it and any units embarked aboard it have not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round, they count as having been destroyed." Now it uses the wording regardless of misison rules. I do not know if some matched play rules trumphs mission rules, or if they are backed into misison rules?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/20 09:27:53
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2020/10/20 09:47:58
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Finland
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Quote from Matched Play rules:
"In Eternal War missions, Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units can never arrive on the battlefield in the first battle round."
There were a number of FAQs in 8th edition that tried to address 1st turn deep strike and it was pretty quickly into the edition that all deepstriking/reserves whatever was forbidden in the first game round. I would assume the same sentiment applies in 9th as well.
Now you're going to say "but sir, Drop Pods say you can come down on turn 1, 2 or 3", and yes, in Open play and Narrative you are welcome to come down on first turn. You also have Teleport Strike special rule in Codex Space Marines that lets you place a unit on the battlefield in "one of the reinforcement phases". Would that not also include your first turn by simply following that rule? If you are going to bring down your Drop Pod on turn 1 I'm going to teleport my Terminators in on turn 1 as well. But alas, that is not how it works in matched. Turn 2 at the earliest, this is my interpretation of the rules.
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2020/10/20 09:55:31
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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As far as I'm aware, in 9E Matched play Drop Pods can come down on T1.
Unlike (I think all other) 'deepstrike' innate units (e.g. Terminators, Jump Pack etc...) Drop Pods give you permission to arrive on T1 (T2, or T3) 'Regardless of Mission Rules'. (C:SM pg 190)
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2020/10/20 10:03:42
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Well where Weazel is wrong is that it was not allowed in 8th edition I believe. The drop pods had:
"Matched Play: This model and any units embarked aboard it are exempt from the Tactical Reserves matched play rule, except that if it and any units embarked aboard it have not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round, they count as having been destroyed." It was the Tactical Reserves matched play rules that said you could not arrive turn one.
Since where the wording for when you can arive from reserves have changed, and the wording of the drop pod have changed I can as of yet not identify if they can arrive turn one. The wording of the drop pod would have to change in order to match the new rules. Or if it is a functional change.
It might not be 'misison rules' that prevents this. Some mission also do not allow tactical reserves at all I think. It might be refering to that. But I have not fince comed the rules.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/20 10:04:36
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2020/10/20 10:12:14
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Finland
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Cornishman wrote:As far as I'm aware, in 9E Matched play Drop Pods can come down on T1.
Unlike (I think all other) 'deepstrike' innate units (e.g. Terminators, Jump Pack etc...) Drop Pods give you permission to arrive on T1 (T2, or T3) 'Regardless of Mission Rules'. (C: SM pg 190)
Mission Rules is different than matched play rules. There are certain missions where reinforcements are forbidden altogether, Drop Pods are exempt of this.
Nothing in "Death From Above" or "Teleport Strike" rules deny them from coming down on turn 1. Except the matched play rule, that would also limit how Drop Pods can arrive.
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2020/10/20 10:14:37
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Updated: Found it.
MPGT2020: Page 80. Strategic Reserves.
Second Paragraf (Parafracing): Units that can deep strike on their datasheet do not follow these rules.
MPGT2020: Under misison rules.Page 6.
Under "10: Decleare Reserves and Transports" (Praraphrasing): Units can not arrive from reserves turn 1.
Drop pods says they ignore misison rules. So you can do it.
To summarice, nothing in the base rules prevents strategic reserves turn 1 if they already have a way to strategic reserves. What is preventing that are the misison rules spesificly. And drop pods say the ignore misison rules spesificly in that regard.
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2020/10/20 10:25:03
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest
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MPGT2020: Under misison rules.Page 6.
Under "10: Decleare Reserves and Transports" (Praraphrasing): Units can not arrive from reserves turn 1.
This is a separate and additional rule to the one already mentioned in Matched Play.
Drop pods have permission to ignore this from the GT mission, as it's a mission rule. However, as Weazel mentioned, the rule under Matched Play is not a mission rule - it's a rule that covers that entire method of play. So they can't ignore that.
To sum it up:
Any Matched Play match, whatsoever: you can't do it.
Any Open or Narrative Play match: you can use drop pods, as long as your opponent agrees.
Playing the GT mission under Open or Narrative Play: you can use drop pods on turn 1, but not Strategic Reserves, or other reserves.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/20 10:26:18
 "Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch |
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2020/10/20 10:37:41
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Actually I do not think that is true.
Where is the rule that prevents depstriking turn 1 in matched play?
"MPGT2020: Page 80. Strategic Reserves.
Second Paragraf (Parafracing): Units that can deep strike on their datasheet do not follow these rules."
And then it talks about paying CP to put things in tactical resrves.
What prevents this in matched play from the big rulebook in page 281 is "10: Decleare Reserves and Transports" (Praraphrasing): Units can not arrive from reserves turn 1."
Drop pods says they ignore misison rules. So you can do it.
Similarly page 333 for Crusade Mission pack.
To summarice, nothing in the core rules prevents arriwing from resrves turn 1, if you can sett up anywhere else then on the battlefield. This differents from the varius mission packs, matched play etc. But all of these the drop pod ignores.
At least how I read it.
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2020/10/20 10:59:47
Subject: Re:Drop pods turn one?
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Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest
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I see what you're thinking - because pg 281 refers to the "Eternal War" mission pack, you're treating that page as part of the mission rules that drop pods allow you to ignore.
This is not how I see it - I interpret this as each individual mission page (1 through 6) being those mission rules, but pg 281 is different as it refers to the entire pack of missions.
However, I think there is value in your argument - certainly some players have been treating the "Eternal War" rules as though they are rules for all "Matched Play" games (myself included!), but that isn't actually the case. I think it needs FAQ'ing.
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"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch |
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2020/10/20 11:45:54
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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I am fairly confident there is nothing in the base rules that prevents a unit from ariving from deepstrike if it has that already on it's datasheet. What prevents that is something outside of the base rules.
And FAQ would sertaly help. But I am fairly certain of this:
In open play nothing prevents deep striking turn one. The wording in matched play, narative play and mission packs all use the same wording. Under Matched Play you find the Eternal War Missions:
"In Eternal War Misisons, Strategic Reserve and Reinforcements units can never arrive on the battlefield in the first battleround."
Now that seems to be mission spesific, since it is refering to all the mission you will be playing in Eternal War (under matched play.) The wording on the drop pod is to ignore mission rules and you can arrive turn 1, 2, and 3. In matched play there is nothing else that prevents you from arriwing turn 1, 2 and 3. The same for Narative play and MPGT2020.
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2020/10/20 11:49:51
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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It is not a mission special rule though. It is a rule that applies to Matched Play.
You cannot ignore that rule.
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2020/10/20 11:51:37
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Norn Queen
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The concept of "Matched Play" and the Eternal War missions are synonymous in 9th edition. BRB, Page 194 wrote:MATCHED PLAY
For those Warhammer 40,000 collectors who want a balanced and dynamic gaming experience, matched play is perfect. The refined rules of this style of play ensures that no matter who you play or with what armies, your games will be nail-biting strategic contests. Points values are used to determine the strength of matched play armies, allowing the effectiveness of a given force to be fine-tuned down to the last bit of wargear.
On pages 280-303 you will find the Eternal War mission pack, which has all the rules you need to fight engaging matched play battles.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/20 11:51:47
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2020/10/20 11:56:23
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Although its cutting hairs, one should be careful to remember that drop pods are not strategic reserves per se, which are a very specific thing that you spent cp to access.
I know in my area the larger tournaments all interpreted the 8th edition drop pods as being alpha strike capable turn 1. I have not heard of anyone changing that in their commentary on such tactics and units as first turn vangaurd vets charges or first turn devastator multimelta lines. Its one of the big reasons vehicles are untenable in nine.
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Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd. |
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2020/10/20 11:56:40
Subject: Re:Drop pods turn one?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Drop pods certainly CAN come in matched play on the first round. This is a commonly used tactic in the tournament scene and one of the only reasons for not using primaris.
The Eternal War and GT rules ARE in fact mission rules. Hence, you use those specific secondaries for those specific missions.
pg 210 is also outlining a specific set of mission rules for those matched play scenarios,,, not universal matched play rules.
The core rulebook does not discuss reinforcement limitations in a global context.
first of all, from the FAQ
"*Page 160 – Drop Pod, Abilities, Drop Pod AssaultChange the Matched Play clause to read:‘Neither this model, nor any units embarked within it, are counted towards any limits that the mission you are playing places on the maximum number of Reinforcement units you can have in your army. This model can be set up in the Reinforcements step of your first, second or third Movement phase, regardless of any mission rules.’"
This was what Drop Pod Assault was errated too right at the beginning of 9th edition.
you are confusing what are and are not mission rules.
Notice how pg 281 belongs to a section called "Eternal War Mission Pack" not pg 279s section called "Matched Play."
notice how number 10 is "These missions use the Strategic Reserves
rules (pg 256). "
also remember that is strategic reserves ARE NOT reinforcements. Strategic reserves have nothing to do with a drop pod as a drop pod is reinforcements. Strategic reserves are ONLY models using the rules on pg 256.
So the rules in that section do not apply to drop pods in anyway.
the rules on page 282 that limit what reinforcements can do are mission rules, as the mission pack rules describe the rules for playing this pack of missions. much like the GT mission pack rules describe how to play the GT pack missions... notice that the two sets of mission pack rules are in fact slightly different at points. These are different mission rules.
Now I can see your confusion that the "mission pack" rules may not be the same as "mission rules," but in that case, the play testers on youtube, the designers talking about changes in 9th a few months ago and tournament organizers everywhere would have to disagree with you. The errata to drop pods at the beginning of this edition was intended to allow drop pods to drop in turn 1, just like they did in 8th edition. This has not changed and is very much intentional by the game designers (see the archived streams on twitch of the designers talking about errata and changes in 9th) .
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/20 11:59:04
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2020/10/20 12:01:45
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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nosferatu1001 wrote:It is not a mission special rule though. It is a rule that applies to Matched Play.
You cannot ignore that rule.
I do not understand what you are saying. Matched play begins page 279. I talks nothing about deep strike or reserves.
Turn the page to page 280. Headline is "Eternal War Mission Pack". Number 10, page 281/282 "In Eternal War Misisons, Strategic Reserve and Reinforcements units can never arrive on the battlefield in the first battleround." Is the only part of matched play that talks about this.
If you are refering to some other mentioning of stratigic reserves for matched play please point them out.
Also BaconCatBug just the sitatation without anything else makes it a bit confusing witch side of the argument you are on. :-p
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2020/10/20 12:07:36
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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@Niiai
Your interpretation is correct.
The ET mission Pack rules are infact mission rules.
BCB is saying that ET mission Pack rules are also "matched play rules.
so if ET mission pack rules are mission rules and
Matched play rules are ET mission pack rules then
matched play rules are mission rules ...
The point is, even if the RAW doesnt check out because of bad wording the designers have fully stated the intention when discussion the edition change.
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As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2020/10/20 13:03:05
Subject: Re:Drop pods turn one?
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Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest
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Nosferatu, BCB - you appear to be falling foul of the same mistake I did, thinking that the "Eternal War" pack is synonymous with Matched Play rules. However the GT pack shows us that there can be other sources.
Or to put it another way... all Eternal War missions are Matched Play games... but not all Matched Play games are Eternal War missions.
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"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch |
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2020/10/20 13:48:05
Subject: Re:Drop pods turn one?
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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DPs can arrive T1 in matched play.
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2020/10/20 16:34:03
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
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I don't have the rules for dreadclaws... do they behave the same as drop pods for DSing on turn ? (assuming we argue that its legal play).
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2020/10/20 16:35:35
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Norn Queen
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 Sazzlefrats wrote:I don't have the rules for dreadclaws... do they behave the same as drop pods for DSing on turn ? (assuming we argue that its legal play).
They do not.
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2020/10/20 16:42:31
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Sazzlefrats wrote:I don't have the rules for dreadclaws... do they behave the same as drop pods for DSing on turn ? (assuming we argue that its legal play).
As BCB says... they do not... its unfortunate in my opinion I would love it if they did. But alas CSM trades turn one strike in for the mobility, firepower, and a huge point increase.... dont even get me started on webway gates.... effectively a drop pod,,, but no turn one, major restrictions, high point cost and no firepower XD.
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As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2020/10/20 17:33:13
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
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 Type40 wrote: Sazzlefrats wrote:I don't have the rules for dreadclaws... do they behave the same as drop pods for DSing on turn ? (assuming we argue that its legal play).
As BCB says... they do not... its unfortunate in my opinion I would love it if they did. But alas CSM trades turn one strike in for the mobility, firepower, and a huge point increase.... dont even get me started on webway gates.... effectively a drop pod,,, but no turn one, major restrictions, high point cost and no firepower XD.
Probably for the best, its highly abuseable by some chaos space marine factions
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2020/10/20 19:45:08
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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As opposed to beeing abused by regular marine factions? :-p
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2020/10/20 22:30:26
Subject: Re:Drop pods turn one?
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Freaky Flayed One
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rule please with page #? It used to state specifically that they could. How did GW phrase that then?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/20 22:33:07
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2020/10/20 22:44:19
Subject: Re:Drop pods turn one?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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TomWilton wrote:
rule please with page #? It used to state specifically that they could. How did GW phrase that then?
pg 190 marine codex. drop pod datasheet. under "drop pod assault." "Thus transport can be set up in the Reinforcements step of your first, second or third Movement phase, regardless of any mission ruiles."
Confirmed by designer commentary during twitch streams during the edition change and when the previous datasheet was eratted to have the same wording and also confirmed because EW and GT restrictions on reinforcements are apart of there respective mission pack rules,,, i.e. the mission rules that drop pods can ignore.... this isnt rocket science.
Also see page 236 "Mission Instructions" where they declare that the mission instructions are applied to each individual mission,,, furthering the point that the restriction exists in the mission rules.
If you don't understand why read this entire thread and check the discussion.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/20 22:59:06
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2020/10/20 22:48:14
Subject: Re:Drop pods turn one?
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Lieutenant General
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From the 'Drop Pod Assault' ability on page 190 of Codex Space Marines:
This transport can be set up in the Reinforcements step of your first, second or third Movement phase, regardless of any mission rules.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2020/10/20 23:13:37
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers
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Please tell me you are asking this for tournament play only, because this is obviously WAAC levels of TFG.
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2020/10/20 23:18:55
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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this isn't new. drop pods have turn one deepstrike, they have since mid 8th edition. They had it back in 5th edition... I didnt paly inbetween so I dont know when they didnt have it. This is fully intentional, this is used all the time and this isnt even that weird. This is just what drop pods do.
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As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2020/10/20 23:41:01
Subject: Re:Drop pods turn one?
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Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest
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I was still on the fence about intent - because while drop pods could do this back in 5th and ever since, there were multiple other options for Deep Striking on turn 1 too - and all of them have been killed off by the rules, in what felt like a very clear statement of intent about turn 1 reserves, apart from drop pods. I never saw a reason for them to be special over, say, teleporting or jump packing in.
However, this:
Confirmed by designer commentary during twitch streams during the edition change
Would change my mind. Is this commentary available outside of Twitch anywhere, for those of us without Warhammer TV?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/20 23:41:10
"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch |
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2020/10/20 23:42:06
Subject: Drop pods turn one?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Please tell me you are asking this for tournament play only, because this is obviously WAAC levels of TFG.
You are stating something that is not true as obvius. I find your lack of phrasing disturbing.
Not only is it allowed in the current rules. It was spesificly allowed in 8.0 and 8.5 after the reserve rules got tightened up a lot. It is just a contonuation of how the rules worked in 8th edition. The phrasing has to change because the rules in 9th edition preventing this has changed how they are phrased.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/20 23:45:35
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3500
2000 