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BrianDavion wrote:

ok, shut up, and take a space marine mini and a custodes mini and go show it to your elderly mother, or your neighbor across the street. point at the boltgun and the guardian spear. ask them "is this the same weapon"? youonly know they're the same weapon since you play 40k and are told it's the same weapon.

that applies to well.. an aweful lot of things, you know these guys are supposed to be related so you look for the handful of similer things that yes is aligned. but I garentee you, your mother/neighbor or whatother person who doesn't know jack all about 40k you choose, won't know.

Dude, chill out. This is getting oddly personal even here, considering we're talking a subject that is strictly subjective, not objective.
People are allowed to have different opinions to you - and judging by most of the thread, I'd say you're in the minority here.

BrianDavion wrote:
ok, shut up, and take a space marine mini and a custodes mini and go show it to your elderly mother, or your neighbor across the street. point at the boltgun and the guardian spear. ask them "is this the same weapon"? youonly know they're the same weapon since you play 40k and are told it's the same weapon.

that applies to well.. an aweful lot of things, you know these guys are supposed to be related so you look for the handful of similer things that yes is aligned. but I garentee you, your mother/neighbor or whatother person who doesn't know jack all about 40k you choose, won't know.

Just to check, you do realise that you're arguing that people who don't know their background will recognise that Custodes and Marines are clearly different things in a thread started by someone who doesn't know their background and assumed they were Marines, right?

 insaniak wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
ok, shut up, and take a space marine mini and a custodes mini and go show it to your elderly mother, or your neighbor across the street. point at the boltgun and the guardian spear. ask them "is this the same weapon"? youonly know they're the same weapon since you play 40k and are told it's the same weapon.

that applies to well.. an aweful lot of things, you know these guys are supposed to be related so you look for the handful of similer things that yes is aligned. but I garentee you, your mother/neighbor or whatother person who doesn't know jack all about 40k you choose, won't know.

Just to check, you do realise that you're arguing that people who don't know their background will recognise that Custodes and Marines are clearly different things in a thread started by someone who looked doesn't know their background and assumed they were Marines, right?

the guy's been writing 40k fan fiction since at least 2016 (his first post here) he does know 40k

my point is that if you took someone who knew NOTHING, and had no preconceptions at all (hence my suggestion of a mother, a neighbor etc) they'd not think they where related

What are you...?
No. They're terminators, they look like more of the same.

Given that the SM weapons section is now a full _five and a half_ pages, I'd fully expect people already somewhat familiar with 40k to go and check and make sure that 'power spear' (or other more absurd variants of '<something> spear' or 'spear of <something>') isn't on the bloody list.

BrianDavion wrote:

 kingheff wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the point still stands that there really aren't that many aestetics shared among them. notably the helmets are very very differant

To you the difference is obvious but to the new player they don't have the point of reference to make that call. As has been stated, look at Sanguinary guard. They have a colour scheme that is very similar to Custodes, arguably make Custodes look restrained by comparison and different shaped helmets from normal marines, they share as many similarities/differences to an intercessor as a custodian guard but, fundamentally they all look like big guys in power armour. Power armour has a distinctive silhouette.

except that it's no more similer then

it's segmented armor plates, a back pack. THEY'RE THE SAME THING!

I could not tell you how much I disagree with this assessment. I could talk quite a lot about this, but suffice to say, the basic visual design of these three units is intended to suggest to anyone, regardless of game familiarity, that the SM and Custodes are connected but the Aeldari are not. The Custodes armor looks like the SM armor with a bunch of fancy stuff tacked on, which suggests that they're elite or otherwise important, but the two armors obviously came from the same basic design philosophy of "take armor that works well and stick extra stuff on it." Both armors are also clearly built for toughness rather than speed. In fact, GW plays off that last part whenever they go down the whole "SMs scare people because something that big shouldn't be able to go fast" route.

Meanwhile, the Guardian armor is clearly built for something else entirely. They're sleek and skinny and covered in thin curves (especially the guns) and generally look like the exact opposite of the chunky Mark VII armor. Maybe if the helmets and guns were different, you could convince someone new to 40k that guardians were SM scouts or infiltrator troops or something, but I think even then it would be a hard sell. Seriously, I don't know how you could even argue that the same society which developed the bolter developed the shuriken catapult, based on design philosophy alone. It's so skinny!

BrianDavion wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Honestly even long term fans are going to see space marines when they see custodes.

They have the same body proportions; the same armour general shape and construction; the same weapon types (bolter); the same overall unit divisions; the same transport vehicles.

ok, shut up, and take a space marine mini and a custodes mini and go show it to your elderly mother, or your neighbor across the street. point at the boltgun and the guardian spear. ask them "is this the same weapon"? youonly know they're the same weapon since you play 40k and are told it's the same weapon.

You seem desperate to win. Yes there are differences, but if you put them side by side they are so very similar.
Heck the Contemptor is the old dreadnought design for regular marines from Titan Legions - the GW studio plastic one even has the rather flat and somewhat dull pose and leg/hip design. The FW one looks far more dynamic even though its technically a different class.

I know the fluff well, but I have to agree that the distinction is mostly academic. Both are enhanced super-human warriors in power armour. That the method of enhancement is somewhat different is pretty insignificant distinction, and I can easily see why people who are not huge fans of these factions would mentally lump them together.

Oh, come on. The clear visual difference is that no space marine in the modern range has a helmet plume.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Angron ripping apart a Custodian has to be the dumbest thing ever. Angron was a walking talking lore break. Want proof? "IM SO ANGRY I CAN LIFE A TITAN" If Angron was maximally angry, what are three things he coulnd't do?

Yes.

Also, literally any main focus of a book is indistinguishable from a god in certain situations. A single Iron Snake moving faster than a pack of Dark Eldar can see? Angron Lifting a Titan? Ciaphas Cain defeating a Word Bearer Captain in a sword fight? Same guy defeating an Ork Warboss in a sword fight? Eisenhorn taking down a WARLORD TITAN with a Daemon? It's called Plot Armor. And the GK are the kings of it. Angron "ripping" apart a Custodian fits right in with that.

No, Custodians are weaker than Primarchs, period. The gap between a Space Marine and a Custodian is smaller than the gap between a Custodian and a Primarch. Even Alpharius, the smallest and physically weakest Primarch, is much more powerful than any Custodian.

Don't like Black Library? I'm pretty sure that on average Valdor loses to every Primarch in the entire game in a challenge, even Lorgar. Against Horus, Fulgrim, Angron, Leman Russ, or one of the better duelists on the tabletop? He's crushed pretty much effortlessly.

And that's literally the best Custodian in the Heresy era, maybe ever.

Why not go check out how well a Custodians' statline matches up to Guilliman's, lol?

To be fair, a lot of people aren’t very thrilled about the Horus heresy taking what we were told were 10,000 year old myths then playing them as serious.

I can’t argue that a modern lore primarch is anything other than “to a custodes what a custodes is to a marine, plus all 19 of them are named characters to boot”, but before Horus Rising came out I would have assumed the only reasonable assumption was they were either standard marines or various generals the emperor found around the galaxy and gave Roman-style political adoptions and custom gene mods.

How is this thread still going? OP asked a question and got an answer from at least 5 people. And now people are arguing about semantics again for 2 pages?

Primarchs are way stronger than custodians.
Custodians are stronger than astartes and all of the aforementioned differ quite a bit in how they are made.
/thread

Tiberias wrote:
How is this thread still going? OP asked a question and got an answer from at least 5 people. And now people are arguing about semantics again for 2 pages?

Primarchs are way stronger than custodians.
Custodians are stronger than astartes and all of the aforementioned differ quite a bit in how they are made.
/thread

I would imagine that it would be because this is a discussion forum, some people are still interested in some manner of ongoing discussion, and we aren’t wasting your air or anything so you’re complaining about nothing?

Tiberias wrote:
How is this thread still going? OP asked a question and got an answer from at least 5 people. And now people are arguing about semantics again for 2 pages?

So, I take it you're new to Dakka? (Or the internet in general, really)

changemod wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
How is this thread still going? OP asked a question and got an answer from at least 5 people. And now people are arguing about semantics again for 2 pages?

Primarchs are way stronger than custodians.
Custodians are stronger than astartes and all of the aforementioned differ quite a bit in how they are made.
/thread

I would imagine that it would be because this is a discussion forum, some people are still interested in some manner of ongoing discussion, and we aren’t wasting your air or anything so you’re complaining about nothing?

Classic dakka....god, I hope no new player/member ever wanders into the general discussion forum.

The matter has been resolved two pages ago, and what happened after wasn't a fruitful discussion, but people trying to prove each other wrong. If you are seriously interested to discuss topics that weren't in OPs question like you claim, nothing is stopping you from creating your own thread to seriously discuss whatever you want.

changemod wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Angron ripping apart a Custodian has to be the dumbest thing ever. Angron was a walking talking lore break. Want proof? "IM SO ANGRY I CAN LIFE A TITAN" If Angron was maximally angry, what are three things he coulnd't do?

Yes.

Also, literally any main focus of a book is indistinguishable from a god in certain situations. A single Iron Snake moving faster than a pack of Dark Eldar can see? Angron Lifting a Titan? Ciaphas Cain defeating a Word Bearer Captain in a sword fight? Same guy defeating an Ork Warboss in a sword fight? Eisenhorn taking down a WARLORD TITAN with a Daemon? It's called Plot Armor. And the GK are the kings of it. Angron "ripping" apart a Custodian fits right in with that.

No, Custodians are weaker than Primarchs, period. The gap between a Space Marine and a Custodian is smaller than the gap between a Custodian and a Primarch. Even Alpharius, the smallest and physically weakest Primarch, is much more powerful than any Custodian.

Don't like Black Library? I'm pretty sure that on average Valdor loses to every Primarch in the entire game in a challenge, even Lorgar. Against Horus, Fulgrim, Angron, Leman Russ, or one of the better duelists on the tabletop? He's crushed pretty much effortlessly.

And that's literally the best Custodian in the Heresy era, maybe ever.

Why not go check out how well a Custodians' statline matches up to Guilliman's, lol?

To be fair, a lot of people aren’t very thrilled about the Horus heresy taking what we were told were 10,000 year old myths then playing them as serious.

I can’t argue that a modern lore primarch is anything other than “to a custodes what a custodes is to a marine, plus all 19 of them are named characters to boot”, but before Horus Rising came out I would have assumed the only reasonable assumption was they were either standard marines or various generals the emperor found around the galaxy and gave Roman-style political adoptions and custom gene mods.

The Primarchs were actually detailed quite a bit in the Index Astartes series circa 2000 where WD went through every legion in order and filled out much of the detail on the finding of the primarch, what they did in the heresy and how they developed afterwards. It’s pretty much the backbone on which the whole HH series was hung when they started writing it over half a decade later.

In any case, even in IA the primarchs were portrayed as significantly larger and more powerful than mere space marines.

Going even further back, Realms of Chaos (late 80s) also covered the HH, including the Siege of Terra and the original depiction of the Emperor vs Horus and again the primarchs are very much depicted as being significantly more powerful than marines (here there is the fight between Sanguinius and a bloodthirster for example).

Lord Zarkov wrote:


The Primarchs were actually detailed quite a bit in the Index Astartes series circa 2000 where WD went through every legion in order and filled out much of the detail on the finding of the primarch, what they did in the heresy and how they developed afterwards. It’s pretty much the backbone on which the whole HH series was hung when they started writing it over half a decade later.

In any case, even in IA the primarchs were portrayed as significantly larger and more powerful than mere space marines.

Going even further back, Realms of Chaos (late 80s) also covered the HH, including the Siege of Terra and the original depiction of the Emperor vs Horus and again the primarchs are very much depicted as being significantly more powerful than marines (here there is the fight between Sanguinius and a bloodthirster for example).

Yes, and many of us understood those to be a distorted legends told ten millennia after the actual events instead of accurate depictions of real historical events. It's like in the legend Gilgamesh is eighteen feet tall and fights god-monsters, but most of us probably do not believe that historical Gilgamesh was like that if he existed at all.

 Crimson wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:


The Primarchs were actually detailed quite a bit in the Index Astartes series circa 2000 where WD went through every legion in order and filled out much of the detail on the finding of the primarch, what they did in the heresy and how they developed afterwards. It’s pretty much the backbone on which the whole HH series was hung when they started writing it over half a decade later.

In any case, even in IA the primarchs were portrayed as significantly larger and more powerful than mere space marines.

Going even further back, Realms of Chaos (late 80s) also covered the HH, including the Siege of Terra and the original depiction of the Emperor vs Horus and again the primarchs are very much depicted as being significantly more powerful than marines (here there is the fight between Sanguinius and a bloodthirster for example).

Yes, and many of us understood those to be a distorted legends told ten millennia after the actual events instead of accurate depictions of real historical events. It's like in the legend Gilgamesh is eighteen feet tall and fights god-monsters, but most of us probably do not believe that historical Gilgamesh was like that if he existed at all.

While IA was written from a historian’s perspective with large parts of it deliberately fragmented or unclear, other bits were at quite high fidelity. tbh I think people would be kidding themselves if they thought the depictions of the primarchs were that off base. Especially after the Cursed Founding one which had depictions of Fabius Bile trying to clone primarchs where they they significantly larger than space marine size.

RoC however was written from an omniscient perspective rather than a historical one (other than Emperor v Horus which was from the Emperor’s personal perspective) so even that doesn’t apply.

In either case though, even assuming some exaggeration, ‘before Horus Rising came out... ...the only reasonable assumption is that they were either standard marines or various generals the Emperor found around the galaxy’ as stated in the post I quoted is clearly incorrect!

In the original Rogue Trader maybe, but that wasn’t even true by 1990, let along 2006!

changemod wrote:

To be fair, a lot of people aren’t very thrilled about the Horus heresy taking what we were told were 10,000 year old myths then playing them as serious.

I can’t argue that a modern lore primarch is anything other than “to a custodes what a custodes is to a marine, plus all 19 of them are named characters to boot”, but before Horus Rising came out I would have assumed the only reasonable assumption was they were either standard marines or various generals the emperor found around the galaxy and gave Roman-style political adoptions and custom gene mods.

How the only reasonable assumptions could have been ones that had literally no basis at all in fluff that was modern in like 1990 at latest is quite something, isn't it?

No, people are just butthurt that their headcanon concerning the Primarchs was not true and frankly has never been true.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

changemod wrote:

To be fair, a lot of people aren’t very thrilled about the Horus heresy taking what we were told were 10,000 year old myths then playing them as serious.

I can’t argue that a modern lore primarch is anything other than “to a custodes what a custodes is to a marine, plus all 19 of them are named characters to boot”, but before Horus Rising came out I would have assumed the only reasonable assumption was they were either standard marines or various generals the emperor found around the galaxy and gave Roman-style political adoptions and custom gene mods.

How the only reasonable assumptions could have been ones that had literally no basis at all in fluff that was modern in like 1990 at latest is quite something, isn't it?

No, people are just butthurt that their headcanon concerning the Primarchs was not true and frankly has never been true.

With the exception of Bobby G, we really don't have much to go off of for primarch abilities, and even he's a singularly exempt sample. His table stats have zero bearing on fluff arguments. Because then every named character in the game would be T8 with 20 wounds and a 1++. When it comes to literal Primarch fluff, all we have is retold tales from extremely suspect sources. The ones who are currently alive (known) are either Daemon princes, or Cawl tinkered lore that is a total retcon.

This thread is a troll right XD... Why are people so obsessed with making every army the "same thing"

If we wana play a game where we have 5 datasheets

1. light infantry,
2. heavy infantry,
3. light tank
4. heavy tank
5. transport

and just "painting and imagining the fluff"

Then maybe you dont understand that people enjoy playing unique and different armies on the table as much as they like painting them and building them different...

i do admit , if we turned the entire game into 5 datasheets it would be far more balanced.
but a little boring compared to armies,,, you know,,, playing different.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If the lore and fluff weren't so horribly bungled by the writers, there would still be a VERY GOOD DIFFERENCE. Custodians never leave Terra, they only do one thing and that is take care of the Emperor. Astartes leave and go off and crusade. Astartes build chapters and fortresses, and play hunt the xeno. Custodes dust the golden Mantlepiece, and clean up after the golden palace. Custodes are also to Astartes as Astartes are to basic Conscripts. As in Astartes are untrained violent babies in comparison.

Also it is cannon that Custodes write books, and poetry, and songs. Name the last great poem written by a Space Wolf.

This is FALSE mostly. They left Terra in secret all the time to do missions and to steal/kidnap Xenos and Daemons and CSM and bring them back to have new recruits and old Custodes to practice on/learn from. They also carried out missions in secret. When Pappa Smurf became Head-Honcho the CustardMen used this opportunity to sway him into allowing them as a FULL FIGHTING FORCE into the galaxy once more and being one of the main reasons why they stayed behind he once more allowed them and they went ZOOM and delivered Primari Geneseed to the chapters and went to go fight. As they are singular unit of 10k they out number any 1 chapter of Space Marines as a fighting force and they don't "Answer" to Guillerman. They only listen to the Emperor as they are his to command.

"Name the last great poem written by a Space Wolf ?"

I get what you are saying and I agree. However, bad example, because spacewolves are one of the few chapters/legions that actually DO write poetry, stories and songs... (they don't actually write it though, its all word of mouth).

 Type40 wrote:
This thread is a troll right XD... Why are people so obsessed with making every army the "same thing"

If we wana play a game where we have 5 datasheets

1. light infantry,
2. heavy infantry,
3. light tank
4. heavy tank
5. transport

and just "painting and imagining the fluff"

Then maybe you dont understand that people enjoy playing unique and different armies on the table as much as they like painting them and building them different...

i do admit , if we turned the entire game into 5 datasheets it would be far more balanced.
but a little boring compared to armies,,, you know,,, playing different.

.... I couldn't exalt this eneugh.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


With the exception of Bobby G, we really don't have much to go off of for primarch abilities, and even he's a singularly exempt sample. His table stats have zero bearing on fluff arguments. Because then every named character in the game would be T8 with 20 wounds and a 1++. When it comes to literal Primarch fluff, all we have is retold tales from extremely suspect sources. The ones who are currently alive (known) are either Daemon princes, or Cawl tinkered lore that is a total retcon.

Are you aware that there is an entire game line set when all the Primarchs were walking around where as of now I think all of them have stat lines?

And that all of them are more formidable than any Custode, even Constantin Valdor who also has a stat line, who is arguably the greatest Custode ever?

Ah yes, the old "I don't like the Primarch fluff so I'm going to pretend none of it is real" argument lol. I could easily use the same reasoning against Custodes, who are canonically recorded as never having lost a battle regardless of how the battle actually went.

No, we have plenty of Primarch fluff at this point, both from the old Index Astartes articles, to the Horus Heresy series proper, to the FW HH game line.

In all of them the fluff places the Primarchs as the mightiest superhumans the Emperor ever created, far more powerful than even the Custodes.

Provide a single source that claims Custodes are individually superior to Primarchs.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:


The Primarchs were actually detailed quite a bit in the Index Astartes series circa 2000 where WD went through every legion in order and filled out much of the detail on the finding of the primarch, what they did in the heresy and how they developed afterwards. It’s pretty much the backbone on which the whole HH series was hung when they started writing it over half a decade later.

In any case, even in IA the primarchs were portrayed as significantly larger and more powerful than mere space marines.

Going even further back, Realms of Chaos (late 80s) also covered the HH, including the Siege of Terra and the original depiction of the Emperor vs Horus and again the primarchs are very much depicted as being significantly more powerful than marines (here there is the fight between Sanguinius and a bloodthirster for example).

Yes, and many of us understood those to be a distorted legends told ten millennia after the actual events instead of accurate depictions of real historical events. It's like in the legend Gilgamesh is eighteen feet tall and fights god-monsters, but most of us probably do not believe that historical Gilgamesh was like that if he existed at all.

While IA was written from a historian’s perspective with large parts of it deliberately fragmented or unclear, other bits were at quite high fidelity. tbh I think people would be kidding themselves if they thought the depictions of the primarchs were that off base. Especially after the Cursed Founding one which had depictions of Fabius Bile trying to clone primarchs where they they significantly larger than space marine size.

RoC however was written from an omniscient perspective rather than a historical one (other than Emperor v Horus which was from the Emperor’s personal perspective) so even that doesn’t apply.

In either case though, even assuming some exaggeration, ‘before Horus Rising came out... ...the only reasonable assumption is that they were either standard marines or various generals the Emperor found around the galaxy’ as stated in the post I quoted is clearly incorrect!

In the original Rogue Trader maybe, but that wasn’t even true by 1990, let along 2006!

Don't try to arguee with people that believes their head-canon is the actual canon and then complains when the canon is not what they want.

 Type40 wrote:
This thread is a troll right XD... Why are people so obsessed with making every army the "same thing"

If we wana play a game where we have 5 datasheets

1. light infantry,
2. heavy infantry,
3. light tank
4. heavy tank
5. transport

and just "painting and imagining the fluff"

Then maybe you dont understand that people enjoy playing unique and different armies on the table as much as they like painting them and building them different...

i do admit , if we turned the entire game into 5 datasheets it would be far more balanced.
but a little boring compared to armies,,, you know,,, playing different.

Did you post this in the wrong thread? Because I'm missing the connection to anything that's being discussed here.

 insaniak wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
This thread is a troll right XD... Why are people so obsessed with making every army the "same thing"

If we wana play a game where we have 5 datasheets

1. light infantry,
2. heavy infantry,
3. light tank
4. heavy tank
5. transport

and just "painting and imagining the fluff"

Then maybe you dont understand that people enjoy playing unique and different armies on the table as much as they like painting them and building them different...

i do admit , if we turned the entire game into 5 datasheets it would be far more balanced.
but a little boring compared to armies,,, you know,,, playing different.

Did you post this in the wrong thread? Because I'm missing the connection to anything that's being discussed here.

Throughout the the thread people have mentioned amalgamating custodies into SM ... I propose an extreme example of this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes I also realize this is most likely fluff confusion and not that sentiment about the game,,, I hope.

 Type40 wrote:

Throughout the the thread people have mentioned amalgamating custodies into SM ...

Er... no, they haven't.

The discussion here was about people thinking that Custodes are a type of Space Marine, and how distinct the two actually are. Nobody in this thread suggested that their rules should be amalgamated.

Ah, I misinterpreted the thread... Sorry... But my point stands rules way as well as lore wise. Let's stop bundling each faction together, lore and rules. I think it's turning the games and stories vanilla.... If custodes are just another set of marines then why isn't everything just marines XD. The answer is because the lore and game would be boring if the factions weren't unique in so many different ways. Everyone is attracted to 40k for different asthetics, atmospheres and levels of superhumaness XD.

 Type40 wrote:
Ah, I misinterpreted the thread... Sorry... But my point stands rules way as well as lore wise. Let's stop bundling each faction together, lore and rules. I think it's turning the games and stories vanilla.... If custodes are just another set of marines then why isn't everything just marines XD. The answer is because the lore and game would be boring if the factions weren't unique in so many different ways. Everyone is attracted to 40k for different asthetics, atmospheres and levels of superhumaness XD.

Fear not. The Star Gods welcome all to their multi-armed embrace. From the lowest scum in the deepest pit of the darkest Hive World to the rising star of the Emperors Angels. All are welcome to join the cult and gain the many blessings of the Star Gods. To prepare the world and tame it; to call for the Star Gods from the darkness of space to light the way. Abandon your fallen dead Emperor; let his angels fall to the earth and become one with the Cult.


Coming next year - Adepticus Genestelericus - the new legion of the Cult of the Genestealers.

To me the mistake GW made was making the Custodes models more marine like, specifically in the lower leg/foot area. In the old art from the visions of heresy art book there is no question at all that Custodes are something different and special; but for whatever reason GW wanted that bell bottom jeans and combat boot silhouette that marines have to be extended to the Custodes.