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Recently, I watched the last season of Punisher. With that, I had seen all the Netflix Marvel shows.
Their ending was a bit bittersweet for me. I enjoyed the shared, lived in world where characters from one would interact or cross-over into episodes or even storylines of the other. I liked how the shows built a sort of "shared" universe that impacted each other.
I enjoyed that the stakes were much lower, and often very personal to the heroes and the villains. There was very little saving the world, with a few minor exceptions. Often, it was more of a character arc or personal belief system at stake. That is more interesting than world-saving stakes to me.
I also really liked some of the characters such as Foggy, Castle, Clare, Jessica, Mable, etc. They seemed pretty well written and presented and I enjoyed their ongoing adventures and evolutions.
Sure, some of the series were a bit bloated or fat. I didn't mind too much.
Now, it is all over and there is nothing else to see. Too bad.
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The Daredevil cast were my favorites. First season was probably my favorite of all the Marvelflix series, with Daredevil probably being the best overall product out of all the others.
For my tastes, there wasn't enough Punisher in the Punisher series. When punishment did comence, it was usually awesome.
All the rest, Jones/Fist/Cage, I was never really a fan of them or even heard of them when I was into the comics and never really got into them. Just couldn't get into their series and really wasn't too sad to see them go.
All of them could have been 3-4 episodes shorter.
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
Basically this. JJ1 is the only season I think is truly spectacular. DD1 is also excellent but a little to formula with super hero season 1.
The others I just found bloated and boring. LC1 starts incredibly strong, but ends weak and LC2 starts weak but ends well. JJ2 is what completely killed my interest to the point where I didn't have the patience for Punisher1 or even DD3, but its really the entire Hand arc that failed things for me. DD2 > IF1 > Defenders somehow makes death cult ninjas INCREDIBLY boring and made sitting through each new season of 3-4 too many episodes feel too much like a chore despite having some really exceptional high points.
I loved every show except Iron Fist, and even that I didn't hate by any means I just felt it wasn't as good as the others. I think Daredevil was the best of the bunch but JJ, Luke Cage are very, VERY close seconds for me.
Defenders was ok to start with and was rubbish by middle when they ran out of Ninjas
Iron Fist - oh dear
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
I have yet to watch JJ3 or DD3 but i found all the seasons to be enjoyable, even if bland at times.
Atleast Punisher didnt end with a S3 hook that made you want to see more like LC and IF did. Punisher just said "Yeah, he is still out there, doing the punishing"
I think the problems always, Barring Kingpin, none of the villains where interesting. There is a reason people always wonder "Who will be the villain in the next Marvel Movie" because villlains make it fun, but they really didnt in most of these shows TBH.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I have yet to watch JJ3 or DD3 but i found all the seasons to be enjoyable, even if bland at times.
Atleast Punisher didnt end with a S3 hook that made you want to see more like LC and IF did. Punisher just said "Yeah, he is still out there, doing the punishing"
I think the problems always, Barring Kingpin, none of the villains where interesting. There is a reason people always wonder "Who will be the villain in the next Marvel Movie" because villlains make it fun, but they really didnt in most of these shows TBH.
Yeah, that's definitely an issue I noticed as well. The Hand were too generic and one note, the usual "do bad things because raisins" approach. They also frankly never really came off as a tangible threat since they never really did much besides send in random ninja mooks after people and never displayed any overarching plans or control that proved difficult to overcome. A lot of the other ones were too one note and basically were defeated the moment the plot said it was time.
There's a reason why Batman and Spider Man are so popular, and it's partly due to their rogues gallery. There's few superheroes that can match them for the variety and potential depth/design of each villain.
Part of the reason why I like Dr. Doom and Lex Luthor is that they're more nuanced beyond the usual "take over the world" schtick.
Iron Fist is one of those rare cases where I think the character should actually be "race" changed from the comics. Something about a rich, white American becoming a master of Kung-Fu stinks to me. It comes way too close to being a white savior type of character.
I thought Luke Cage was decent enough for a TV series.
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
trexmeyer wrote: Iron Fist is one of those rare cases where I think the character should actually be "race" changed from the comics. Something about a rich, white American becoming a master of Kung-Fu stinks to me. It comes way too close to being a white savior type of character.
I thought Luke Cage was decent enough for a TV series.
I don't get the "white savior" arguement for iron fist. he's a white guy who grew up in a monestary and learned kung fu. lots of white guys learn martial arts.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
trexmeyer wrote: Iron Fist is one of those rare cases where I think the character should actually be "race" changed from the comics. Something about a rich, white American becoming a master of Kung-Fu stinks to me. It comes way too close to being a white savior type of character.
I thought Luke Cage was decent enough for a TV series.
The problem is then it stereotypes the other direction. I mean, of Course the Asian character is a master of martial arts. Aren’t they all? Plus he’s hardly a savior. We’re frequently told he’s the worst Iron Fist they've had, though obviously still above what a normal person is capable of.
Iron Fist is one of those rare cases where I think the character should actually be "race" changed from the comics. Something about a rich, white American becoming a master of Kung-Fu stinks to me. It comes way too close to being a white savior type of character.
I think this is a case of the character concept really showing its age more than anything honestly.
While watching the series, I mostly didn't like the constant run of predictable plot points (like, really predictable) but I also found myself constantly thinking "this character really is from the 70s." I looked it up and I was right XD 1974. Someone at Marvel must have watched some Bruce Lee films and thought "We can make a comic about this" and that's how we got Iron Fist XD Martial Arts mastery has just become so generic and uninspired over the decades that having it as a primary power (with lots of faux-Zen philosophy thrown in) is horribly bland. Throw in benevolent white and billionaire descriptors, and the character kind of devolves into just being a list of cliches with no spice that maybe weren't cliches when the character was fresh but are now. As someone with no prior attachment to the character, I found him to be a complete and utter bore to watch. His backstory is today the stuff of mediocre fanfiction and the play out reeks of anything written by someone who thinks Anime is an accurate depiction of 'Eastern culture'.
What the character really needs is a reinvention. Or not. Sometimes characters just die cause they're not that interesting anymore.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/10/28 08:02:13
trexmeyer wrote: Iron Fist is one of those rare cases where I think the character should actually be "race" changed from the comics. Something about a rich, white American becoming a master of Kung-Fu stinks to me. It comes way too close to being a white savior type of character.
I thought Luke Cage was decent enough for a TV series.
The problem is then it stereotypes the other direction. I mean, of Course the Asian character is a master of martial arts. Aren’t they all? Plus he’s hardly a savior. We’re frequently told he’s the worst Iron Fist they've had, though obviously still above what a normal person is capable of.
And if you want "Asian Master of Martial Arts", that's where Shang-Chi steps in.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
I liked all of the Netflix marvel serieses, even Iron Fist, was bummed they all got canceled just because of disney.
I just signed up for Hulu and Disney + and now I have a bunch of other marvel shows to watch like cloak & dagger and runaways and others, I haven't heard anything about them and don't know the comics at all, but I'll still check em out when I get the time. Mandalorian comes first.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I have yet to watch JJ3 or DD3 but i found all the seasons to be enjoyable, even if bland at times.
Atleast Punisher didnt end with a S3 hook that made you want to see more like LC and IF did. Punisher just said "Yeah, he is still out there, doing the punishing"
I think the problems always, Barring Kingpin, none of the villains where interesting. There is a reason people always wonder "Who will be the villain in the next Marvel Movie" because villlains make it fun, but they really didnt in most of these shows TBH.
Yeah, that's definitely an issue I noticed as well. The Hand were too generic and one note, the usual "do bad things because raisins" approach. They also frankly never really came off as a tangible threat since they never really did much besides send in random ninja mooks after people and never displayed any overarching plans or control that proved difficult to overcome. A lot of the other ones were too one note and basically were defeated the moment the plot said it was time.
There's a reason why Batman and Spider Man are so popular, and it's partly due to their rogues gallery. There's few superheroes that can match them for the variety and potential depth/design of each villain.
Part of the reason why I like Dr. Doom and Lex Luthor is that they're more nuanced beyond the usual "take over the world" schtick.
I think the second season of each show(Barring Daredevil, Because Kingpin) really suffered from lack of good villains. Jessica Jones had her mom, which was kinda lame. Wasnt much play with it. Luke Cage really suffered because the villains had nothing to really do with the main character. He was just forced to just interact with them. Iron Fist S2 was that worst because, IDK why but the villains fell flat.
Punisher had 2 real bad s2 villains. One was a bad rehash of the s1 villain.
Normally, I’m very happy to binge telly I enjoy. Yet, the majority of those now consist of an over arcing plot, and “one and done” refresher episodes. Something thrown into the mix to give us a breather.
The Netflix series? They’re absolutely well made, and I’m not going to pretend otherwise.
But......as others have said, they’re overly long. And none, to the best of my recollection, include any “one and done” palette refresher episodes. So we have to watch all of them to ensure we’ve got all the plot strands.
It’s not so bad on the first watch. But for repeat viewing, it’s a bit much.
But we’ll always have those glorious corridor fights! *TV suddenly bounces off my bonce, bringing this post to an end*
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
trexmeyer wrote: Iron Fist is one of those rare cases where I think the character should actually be "race" changed from the comics. Something about a rich, white American becoming a master of Kung-Fu stinks to me. It comes way too close to being a white savior type of character.
I thought Luke Cage was decent enough for a TV series.
The problem is then it stereotypes the other direction. I mean, of Course the Asian character is a master of martial arts. Aren’t they all? Plus he’s hardly a savior. We’re frequently told he’s the worst Iron Fist they've had, though obviously still above what a normal person is capable of.
How is he not a savior? There are what, 3x as many Chinese as there are Americans, but it's a damned orphaned American millionaire that inherits the title of Iron Fist? Oh sure, he's bad at it, somehow he beat out everyone else on the continent to get it. Are you having a go?
It makes dramatically more sense for an Asian to be a master of oriental martial arts. Just as it makes the most sense for the best cricket player to be born in the Commonwealth (I don't know which of the countries is the best at cricket), the best basketball player to be from the USA, and so on. That doesn't mean everyone in the Commonwealth is a stud at cricket, or every American a baller, or every Asian a martial arts master. I'm only recognizing that these examples are skillsets more developed in specific cultures and it follows that the master of one would be from that culture. In Rand's case he technically was raised there, but in shoehorned situation where he had a cliched tragic backstory and was adopted by generic moustache twirling ancient master of Kung Fu #6789.
It's a dated concept born from the 1970's love of Kung Fu cinema. The comics have been accused of Orientalism and I have a hard time seeing how that isn't true of the initial run.
A few article quotes about this. Spoilered for readability.
Spoiler:
ENTERTAINMENT
'IRON FIST' WAS ALWAYS RACIST — AND THE NETFLIX SHOW ISN'T HELPING
Nothing says "Asian" like a mystical white dude standing in Chinatown.
Marvel, Netflix
JONATHAN LEE
7.25.2018 3:42 PM WHEN MARVEL EXECUTIVE JEPH LOEB GOT UP IN FRONT A COMIC-CON CROWD LAST WEEKEND DRESSED AS DANIEL FROM THE KARATE KID HE EARNED INSTANT CRITICISM FOR WHAT MANY ARGUED WAS CULTURALLY INSENSITIVE COSPLAY. HOWEVER, THIS WASN’T THE FIRST TIME MARVEL LET DOWN ITS ASIAN FANS. IT’S SIMPLY THE LATEST STUNT IN A LONG RUN OF QUESTIONABLE MOMENTS FROM A COMPANY THAT CLAIMS TO STAND FOR DIVERSITY BUT PEDDLES IN ERASURE INSTEAD.
Iron Fist lies at the center of this problem. Ever since the original comics, it’s represented a missed opportunity to explore race in a way that goes beyond the white perspective. And with the Netflix series, Marvel lost out on out on a rare chance to correct that racist narrative.
PEOPLE CLAIM A WHITE IRON FIST IS PROGRESSIVE — THEY’RE WRONG
Much has already been said about why the Netflix Iron First show is seriously problematic. If you need a quick primer, here’s why: The entire premise of the comic was racist to begin with.
“I think the source material is orientalist,” Nancy Wang Yuen tells Inverse. Yuen is a sociologist and the author of Reel Inequality: Hollywood Actors and Racism, a book about the vast racial disparity in pop culture. “Anything that’s set in Asia or with Asian cultures is treated as an object rather than a subject. Martial arts and yoga — it’s a consumption item rather than an actual culture to be respected.”
Iron Fist certainly fits that narrative. It’s the story of Danny Rand (played by Finn Jones in the Netflix series), the heir of a billion-dollar corporation. As a child, Danny is the sole survivor of a plane crash that kills his parents. He’s taken in by an ancient order of warrior monks based in the mystical city of K’un Lun. Despite being an outsider, Danny inherits the title of Iron Fist, becoming the champion of his adopted city K’un Lun.
This is a pretty common script in Hollywood. The Iron Fist show follows the “Mighty Whitey” narrative demonstrated in films such as Kickboxer, The Last Samurai, The Karate Kid Part II, and The Outsider to a tee, right down to the hamfisted trope of white men wooing Asian women away from the grasp of savage, domineering Asian men.
Because in orientalist stories, it’s not only Asian culture that is up for consumption but Asian people themselves. These tales cast Asian men as either villains or teachers who propel the white hero into greatness, whereas Asian women exist purely to be romantic conquests. Like Eric Sloane, Nathan Algren, Daniel LaRusso, and the other white protagonists who have entered Asia before him, Danny Rand is also given an Asian companion in the form of Colleen Wing.
“Not only has he mastered kung fu, he seduced the Asian woman,” says Yuen.
Whilst I thought the Punisher was top notch I am finding Black Lightning a much better superhero AND drama than any of the Marvel versions
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
I would have had no problem with Danny Rand being the 2nd generation son of a powerful Chinese-American family, and the story being the battle of discovering his heritage versus being born a rich American, which is why he begins as the worst Iron Fist ever, but grows more powerful as he finds balance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 19:13:13
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
AegisGrimm wrote: I would have had no problem with Danny Rand being the 2nd generation son of a powerful Chinese-American family, and the story being the battle of discovering his heritage versus being born a rich American, which is why he begins as the worst Iron Fist ever, but grows more powerful as he finds balance.
But the thing is Kun Lun isn't his heritage. Or basically anyone on earths. Kun Lun is a extra dimensional city. Yes. That city is totally based on Asian stereotypes and the origins of the character are absolutely a kung fu-sploitation. But Danny Rands nationality is entirely unimportant to the character. He COULD be asian, or white, or black, or hispanic... it's irrelevant. Because he's not interacting with HIS culture he is interacting with this other worldly culture.
Saying it's a problem that Danny Rand is white means you are changing his story to make his race a part of the character. Which I don't agree with. Kun Lun should be changed to be multi racial in the way that Kamartage was for Dr. Strange.
It's fine when Johnny Storm is played by Michael B Jordan because his race is not relevant to the character. Saying he has to be white is a problem.
It's fine when Danny Rand is played by a white dude because his race is not relevant to the character. Saying he has to be Asian is a problem.
Luke Cage HAS to be played by a black character. His race IS important to his character.
Shang Chi HAS to be played by a Asian character. His race IS important to his character.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
His race is important to his character within a greater context. He's a white male adopted by 'magical' Asians and gifted the greatest power that one could acquire in K'un'lun. I don't see how it would be any different than if a white male was adopted into Wakanda and somehow proved himself to be the best candidate for the title of Black Panther with the sole exception of Black Panther being something of a hereditary position.
The more I think about it, the more I think that the specific Danny Rand character should have just been dropped as it is a dated concept. There are multiple Iron Fists. Make a new one.
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
Except that again, Wakanda is a nation in Africa on this plane of existence. And K'un Lun is a extra-dimensional city that doesn't exist in Asia and doesn't have to be Asian. The thing that needs to change isn't Danny Rand's race (again, cast him as whoever would play the part best) it's K'un Lun's presentation. Like the Ancient One being a horrible stereotype and recasting him as a celtic her was a good choice the presentation of Kun Lun doesn't need to be an Chinese thing when it doesn't exist on Earth.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Normally, I’m very happy to binge telly I enjoy. Yet, the majority of those now consist of an over arcing plot, and “one and done” refresher episodes. Something thrown into the mix to give us a breather.
The Netflix series? They’re absolutely well made, and I’m not going to pretend otherwise.
But......as others have said, they’re overly long. And none, to the best of my recollection, include any “one and done” palette refresher episodes. So we have to watch all of them to ensure we’ve got all the plot strands.
It’s not so bad on the first watch. But for repeat viewing, it’s a bit much.
But we’ll always have those glorious corridor fights! *TV suddenly bounces off my bonce, bringing this post to an end*
I've been binging a lot of anime recently and its pretty remarkable what a difference 30 min episodes make compared to a full hour. The longer hour long shows go, the more they breed up these secondary characters who spend 20 min+ off on tangent side stories that really drag down the pacing. I'm sure some of this comes down to logistics (actors and sets create extra film compared to animation which is expensive to produce) but I vastly prefer the pacing of the latter.
Lance845 wrote: Except that again, Wakanda is a nation in Africa on this plane of existence. And K'un Lun is a extra-dimensional city that doesn't exist in Asia and doesn't have to be Asian. The thing that needs to change isn't Danny Rand's race (again, cast him as whoever would play the part best) it's K'un Lun's presentation. Like the Ancient One being a horrible stereotype and recasting him as a celtic her was a good choice the presentation of Kun Lun doesn't need to be an Chinese thing when it doesn't exist on Earth.
Wakanda, despite being embraced by the mainstream population, is a racist caricature of Africa derived from the idea of a mystical city in a jungle that fueled many colonial adventures. It is as detached from our reality is K'un-Lun. K'un-Lun, while being extradimensional in the Marvel Universe, is derived wholeheartedly from Chinese mythology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunlun_(mythology)#Modern_popular_culture Denying it's relationship to Asia, specifically China, is akin in my eyes to denying Mt. Olympus' mythological connection to Greece.
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
Normally, I’m very happy to binge telly I enjoy. Yet, the majority of those now consist of an over arcing plot, and “one and done” refresher episodes. Something thrown into the mix to give us a breather.
The Netflix series? They’re absolutely well made, and I’m not going to pretend otherwise.
But......as others have said, they’re overly long. And none, to the best of my recollection, include any “one and done” palette refresher episodes. So we have to watch all of them to ensure we’ve got all the plot strands.
It’s not so bad on the first watch. But for repeat viewing, it’s a bit much.
But we’ll always have those glorious corridor fights! *TV suddenly bounces off my bonce, bringing this post to an end*
I've been binging a lot of anime recently and its pretty remarkable what a difference 30 min episodes make compared to a full hour. The longer hour long shows go, the more they breed up these secondary characters who spend 20 min+ off on tangent side stories that really drag down the pacing. I'm sure some of this comes down to logistics (actors and sets create extra film compared to animation which is expensive to produce) but I vastly prefer the pacing of the latter.
I think its has more to do with what shows you're specifically watching.
A huge amount of anime has tons filler secondary characters, tangent side-stories and entire filler arcs for their 30 (or 22) minute episodes. Some have feth all for a main plot (as much as I enjoyed Ranma, for example, it doesn't have a real plot. Its all side-tangents from beginning to end, and ends up just shrugging off anything resembling resolution).
Now it can really depend, as there are some shows that are tightly written 6 or 13 episodes that just get on with it, but there's still the Big Shows (older or modern) that are a couple hundred episodes of largely garbage characters and nonsense. The episode length isn't relevant here, and some of the shows that have shorter seasons also have longer episode lengths, with less tangents and better pacing. [A lot of OVAs were set up like this, with longer running time, but much tighter script/plot]
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 23:51:10
Can I muster the enthusiasm to rewatch? Sadly not.
Pretty much this, in hindsight I'll even give Iron Fist a bit of slack as DD doing well meant some things might not have got the final tuning needed
Yep likewise.
With the exception of Luke Cage. I guess it was probably the soundtrack for me, as it spawned a whole new spotify list of epic tunes I forgot existed. Man, how could I foget how good is wu-tang clan and generaly old skool hip hop was!! Modern day trash music has stained my soul lol.
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