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Not Online!!! wrote:

Breton wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering the pricepoint of the kellermorph neither the ethereal nor the Colonel have any buissness surviving though...

Considering the price point of the Kellermorph it has no business putting out 9 or better Sniper (ignores Look Out Sir) shots, especially in an era where command/bodyguard squads were limited at best.

Wellp, i guess i misread were instead of Where, and assumed you wanted to point to release state... My bad, but the point still stands for the price the Kellermorph is a suicide unit that either makes its pts back or dies off unlike any of the named other Sniper units..
That is indeed my bad.

However i won't take back that you feel defensive, because one can go through your ammount of Posts and find that out rather fast. Heck you can through this very thread to find some of that.
And Rule 1 still applies , calling somone outright a liar, and dishonest argumentation is imo over that point.

Did you lie about what I said? We can scroll up and see it. Do you need me to quote it again-again? And again, you're not honest enough to make me defensive. Its neither my fault or my problem you can't argue honestly.

not to mention that as soon as someone does disagree with you, you attempt to argue that said poster " Misrepresents " or "Lies"..

Just you and people who argue like you. I've disagreed with a lot of honest people on here. Maybe the difference is... you? And Again, in reply to my point about Look Out Sir, you tried to obfuscate with a bunch of non-sniper units you think are OP. You lied about what my point was about. It was right there, I said it's not the pistol, its Gunslinger. You lied and tried to mock me for complaining about the pistol I wasn't even talking about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I repeat. Codex Space Marines 9.0 Nerfed Eliminators, they do not have a option to Ignore LOS anymore. they now simply have a round that ignores cover. at the cost of going from 2 dmg to 1 dmg and losing a point of AP

Look out Sir and Line of Sight have the same abbreviation...

ahh right, derp. Anyway, I did feel it's worth noting eliminators got nerfed. looking at what the keller morph could do, and what the nerf was (basicly it effedctively got the "core keyword" treatment applied to it's aura) it'd say the nerf was about right and right now the unit is potent, potentially a game changer but yeah I don't think it's broken.

Nope, you were right, I was giving him too much credit.

So this is what i meant I MEAN LINE OF SIGHT

He was trying to bring up something no longer accurate in addition to a bunch of irrelevant to Look Out Sir units.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You are delusional about history but that's just hate clouding your judgement. Happens to the best of us until we let go of the hate.

You sound like you are speaking from experience .
Do you mean that it happened to you before?

BrianDavion wrote:
neo-Volkite are 1: brand new and reserved only for the elite. 2: are cutting edge IoM technology)

I absolutely, totally hate to see "new stuff is better" stuff in 40k. Older should mean better in the Imperium, and primaris make a mockery of this. Sad sad sad.
Imperium is now the new Tau empire.

"I absolutely, totally hate to see "new stuff is better" stuff in 40k. Older should mean better in the Imperium, and primaris make a mockery of this. Sad sad sad.
Imperium is now the new Tau empire."

Given that the real "Dark Age" was more political than technological, it breaks the suspension of disbelief that technological regression would last 10K years. It works kind of as satire, but not played straight.

Breton wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Breton wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering the pricepoint of the kellermorph neither the ethereal nor the Colonel have any buissness surviving though...

Considering the price point of the Kellermorph it has no business putting out 9 or better Sniper (ignores Look Out Sir) shots, especially in an era where command/bodyguard squads were limited at best.

Wellp, i guess i misread were instead of Where, and assumed you wanted to point to release state... My bad, but the point still stands for the price the Kellermorph is a suicide unit that either makes its pts back or dies off unlike any of the named other Sniper units..
That is indeed my bad.

However i won't take back that you feel defensive, because one can go through your ammount of Posts and find that out rather fast. Heck you can through this very thread to find some of that.
And Rule 1 still applies , calling somone outright a liar, and dishonest argumentation is imo over that point.

Did you lie about what I said? We can scroll up and see it. Do you need me to quote it again-again? And again, you're not honest enough to make me defensive. Its neither my fault or my problem you can't argue honestly.

not to mention that as soon as someone does disagree with you, you attempt to argue that said poster " Misrepresents " or "Lies"..

Just you and people who argue like you. I've disagreed with a lot of honest people on here. Maybe the difference is... you? And Again, in reply to my point about Look Out Sir, you tried to obfuscate with a bunch of non-sniper units you think are OP. You lied about what my point was about. It was right there, I said it's not the pistol, its Gunslinger. You lied and tried to mock me for complaining about the pistol I wasn't even talking about.

Assuming an honest mistake for a lie, is just that which i addmited i will however not retract what i stated and instead post these here as an exemple for YOUR defensiveness and direct attacks on credibility:

here we have you, frankly misrepresenting JNA's point which is founded, whilest yours is not.


Here we have Hyprocrisy , an "my bad" Moment from you, as soon someone else does that it is unaceptable and a liar:

With a nice sidedish of moving goalposts to boot. Impressive.


Oh so YOU DO NOT like if you get called out but it is fine IF YOU do it... Also impressive:


Yah, that is more or less your participation in this thread alone.

SecondTime wrote:
"I absolutely, totally hate to see "new stuff is better" stuff in 40k. Older should mean better in the Imperium, and primaris make a mockery of this. Sad sad sad.
Imperium is now the new Tau empire."

Given that the real "Dark Age" was more political than technological, it breaks the suspension of disbelief that technological regression would last 10K years. It works kind of as satire, but not played straight.

Plus Volkite isn't new. NEO-Volkite might be, but Volkite was Heresy era stuff.

SecondTime wrote:
Given that the real "Dark Age" was more political than technological, it breaks the suspension of disbelief that technological regression would last 10K years. It works kind of as satire, but not played straight.

I am against it on the basis of realism? Well, no. No I'm not. Not in my 40k . Sure, technological regression that last 10k years demands a lot of suspension of disbelief. But what we got instead? Stagnation for 10K years and then suddenly new stuff? Doesn't make the suspension of disbelief any easier, really!
Do I want my 40k played straight? Not really.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Given that the real "Dark Age" was more political than technological, it breaks the suspension of disbelief that technological regression would last 10K years. It works kind of as satire, but not played straight.

I am against it on the basis of realism? Well, no. No I'm not. Not in my 40k . Sure, technological regression that last 10k years demands a lot of suspension of disbelief. But what we got instead? Stagnation for 10K years and then suddenly new stuff? Doesn't make the suspension of disbelief any easier, really!
Do I want my 40k played straight? Not really.

Brandon Sanderson had a great lecture on why changing the rules of a universe TOO MUCH from what we live in causes problems. Logic doesn't stop working. Science exists, and scientific outcomes are by definition, rediscoverable and reproduceable. Even if the warp also exists and is a thing, that doesn't undo all of logic and science. It it were to, then everything is arbitrary, there are no stakes and nothing to relate to. This is why a satirical setting can't be played straight, but they do it anyway.

This is also why chapter sizes are immersion breaking because we know from own wars that one thousand troopers of any quality are too few and that's only on a planetary scale. But these sizes were determined in the satire era, not the straight era.

Not Online!!! wrote:


Assuming an honest mistake for a lie, is just that which i addmited i will however not retract what i stated and instead post these here as an exemple for YOUR defensiveness and direct attacks on credibility:

To make an honest mistake, you'd have to be honest first.

So again, is it wierd that a stubgun is outperforming boltguns, yes, is it gamebreaking? Not more so then any of the named issues.

Not only were you not saying it AGAIN - you didn't have a post on the issue - it wasn't even what I said - instead I literally said the issue wasn't the pistol but the Gunslinger. In fact your first response on the issue was in reply to me pointing out SEVERAL pistols in the Marine arsenal that have similar statlines AND that the issue was Gunslinger not the pistol.

Inferno Pistol. Sunwrath is also a Pistol 2 Ancient Always safe Supercharged Plasma., maybe another few Relics. Kind of sort of the Primaris Apothecary within 3". But nobody is rocking 3 of them and Gunslinger. Truth be told the problem with the Kellermorph - such as it is - is Gunslinger not the pistol.

Why is Gunslinger an inappropriate concept for 40k? Is it any weirder than power-armored knights wielding chainswords, or fungoid humanoids with a psychic gestalt field that empowers them in groups, or anything else, really?

Because mechanically, the Kellermorph is good, but didn't exactly rock the tournament scene. And in casual games, given it's a single unit, it's easy to just ask "Can you not take a Kellermorph?" if your list is incapable of handling it.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Why is Gunslinger an inappropriate concept for 40k? Is it any weirder than power-armored knights wielding chainswords, or fungoid humanoids with a psychic gestalt field that empowers them in groups, or anything else, really?

Because mechanically, the Kellermorph is good, but didn't exactly rock the tournament scene. And in casual games, given it's a single unit, it's easy to just ask "Can you not take a Kellermorph?" if your list is incapable of handling it.

What do you mean inappropriate concept? Its the "problem" with the Kellermorph - again such as it is (it's not a BIG problem) - but there's nothing wrong with the concept. Cypher has had various Gunslinger concepts through the history of the game too. Exploding 2+'s are a little dicey while everyone else is on exploding 6's, but not so much so given the single model high price. Ignoring Look Out Sir by itself isn't a problem. That much Look Out Sir, on a character that I assume can get Look Out Sir itself is a little extreme especially for some armies, and especially while the bodyguard (intercept on a 2+, or cannot be targeted even with Ignoring Look Out Sir as it looks like it's going) rules are in flux and/or non-existent.

The Kellermorph is going to get about 9 S4 -1 D2 hits. In the same 70-90 points range Ratling Snipers put out 6.67 S4 -0 1D hits, and almost 2 mortal wounds for about the same price. Rangers will put out 5.36 S4 -0 D1 and most of 2 mortal wounds. Eliminators 2.52 S5 -2 D2 hits and half a mortal wound. Tau Sniper Drones are just boned and need a buff. They get 5-10 shots, most likely 5, only 1.65 or so will hit for S5 -0 1D, plus deal most of a mortal wound.

Marines already have the new bodyguard rule, characters can't be targeted even with ignores Look Out Sir. Necrons too. As near as I can tell Eldar don't even have one, nor CSM. DG do. In a twist I find absolutely hysterical Custodes - the bodyguards of the emperor - don't have a bodyguard rule. (that I can see). Mechanicus appear to not have one. Doesn't appear Orks have one.

The Warboss, Shield Captain, Tech Priest, and Chaos Lord/Daemon Prince are beefy enough it'll hurt but would need some very lucky and unlucky rolling both to get dead. The Farseer, and the Guard Colonel not so much. The Necron Lord without a bodyguard is on shaky ground too (unless he got a buff in the new codex) The Visarch is dead. Yvraine is dead. Assuming The Visarch is already dead and can't bodyguard. Without drones the Aun'shi Fireblade, Darkstrider, and Ethereal are dead - though I think because most drones can do the bodyguard thing they're the most likely army to have had some. Most of the suits live, and they're I think the common HQs.
4.4
The Company Command is probably the squishiest with the least likely bodyguard potential. 2.52 hits will be 1.68 wounds 1.13 after invulns, 2.26 damage about half, and half a mortal wound and it's closer to 75% dead. Ratling Snipers will get 6.667 hits, 4.4 wounds, 2.2 after saves and most of two mortal wounds so they'd still kill the officer too. Which probably says something about the officer

Vs the Farseer - 1.68 wounds. .84 after saves, 1.68 damage, plus half a mortal wound. Safe Farseer. Vs Ratlings, 4.4 wounds 2.2 damage, plus most of 2 mortal wounds, still a safe farseer. But less so than vs Eliminators.

SM have a sniper relic you can stick on a caracter. S5 -2 D3 +1MW on every successful wound (not sure if that's before or after armor save, I assume before) Don't even need to do the math to know just about everyone but the Guard Colonel and the Ethereal is safe.

Like I said it's not a big problem, and the places where it is it's not the ONLY problem. If I were writing the book, I'd split Gunslinger and you could pick either Ignore Lookout Sir, or Exploding 2+'s.

12” range too. Don’t forget that!
And on a squishy T3 5++ body.

I lost a couple smash captains to them because I'm bad a storm shield rolls, but I didn't find them to be that outrageous. I guess anything that takes out spess mahreen heroes gets the evil eye.

Make that Ignore Look Out Sir! and Mortal wounds on somethings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
12” range too. Don’t forget that!
And on a squishy T3 5++ body.

With Look Out Sir protection of it's own and exploding 2+'s on non-character models. Other snipers don't have near the utility shooting at "just dudes". All those armies can also counter battery the other snipers. Not so much the Character Kelermorph.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SecondTime wrote:
I lost a couple smash captains to them because I'm bad a storm shield rolls, but I didn't find them to be that outrageous. I guess anything that takes out spess mahreen heroes gets the evil eye.

As I and others mentioned, the Space Marines aren't the ones especially vulnerable. Any of T5+. T4+ and 3+ armor or a T4+ and 4++ with 5+ wounds is fairly safe with average rolls. The more of that they have, the safer they are. The guard commander is T3 4W and 5++ - none of the above, which is why he's a red mist. The Farseer is T3 5W with a 4++ which is why they're borderline.

Guard commanders don't much matter, though. They are very , very cheap. IG can afford redundancy.

As I and others mentioned, the Space Marines aren't the ones especially vulnerable. Any of T5+. T4+ and 3+ armor or a T4+ and 4++ with 5+ wounds is fairly safe with average rolls. The more of that they have, the safer they are.

You ain't going to have more marine characters then marines ones, with the way HQ slots work in 9th and by the sole fact that unlike lets say IG characters, the marine often cost more then 2 units of other factions.

SecondTime wrote:
Guard commanders don't much matter, though. They are very , very cheap. IG can afford redundancy.

not really, they're still limited by HQ slots after all. look, this whole conversation started because someone insisted Marines where up in arms over kellermorphs. I think one person has tried to argue that yeah Kellermorphs are cheeky, MOST people have said "eh their nerf was about right they're fine these days and most of the issues with them where people who played other armies with flimsier HQs"

ohh and some of us admitted the weapons stats where a bit silly considering...

BrianDavion wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Guard commanders don't much matter, though. They are very , very cheap. IG can afford redundancy.

not really, they're still limited by HQ slots after all.

Can't they just buy more force orgs? That's the whole point to them, really. You can't ever kill anything meaningful in an IG army because nothing's meaningful in the first place. Points-wise I mean.

SecondTime wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Guard commanders don't much matter, though. They are very , very cheap. IG can afford redundancy.

not really, they're still limited by HQ slots after all.

Can't they just buy more force orgs? That's the whole point to them, really. You can't ever kill anything meaningful in an IG army because nothing's meaningful in the first place. Points-wise I mean.

buying extra detachments means CPs spent on that rather then on other things.

look, someone commented that marine players where pup in arms over the kellermorph, someone else noted that "it's really guard and eldar who have the most trouble with it"

SecondTime wrote:
Guard commanders don't much matter, though. They are very , very cheap. IG can afford redundancy.

You only get one warlord.

And they're needed for the Voice of Command.

Yeah, I guess that's true. Warlord mechanic. Maybe IG should get inheritance on the warlord job.

SecondTime wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Guard commanders don't much matter, though. They are very , very cheap. IG can afford redundancy.

not really, they're still limited by HQ slots after all.

Can't they just buy more force orgs? That's the whole point to them, really. You can't ever kill anything meaningful in an IG army because nothing's meaningful in the first place. Points-wise I mean.

First and foremost they just plain need a boost. They and Ethereals both. Maybe some others. As mentioned the Kelermorph wasn't the only problem in that situation. The loss of the command squad around the Company Commander/Colonel hurt Guard quite a bit.


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Karol wrote:

As I and others mentioned, the Space Marines aren't the ones especially vulnerable. Any of T5+. T4+ and 3+ armor or a T4+ and 4++ with 5+ wounds is fairly safe with average rolls. The more of that they have, the safer they are.

You ain't going to have more marine characters then marines ones, with the way HQ slots work in 9th and by the sole fact that unlike lets say IG characters, the marine often cost more then 2 units of other factions.

Not sure what you mean, I think you have a typo. More marine characters than marine ones?

SecondTime wrote:
Brandon Sanderson had a great lecture on why changing the rules of a universe TOO MUCH from what we live in causes problems.

I don't think you get what I am saying.
Previously, 40k was unrealistic AND characterful, unique and interesting.
Now, 40k is unrealistic AND dumb.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Brandon Sanderson had a great lecture on why changing the rules of a universe TOO MUCH from what we live in causes problems.

I don't think you get what I am saying.
Previously, 40k was unrealistic AND characterful, unique and interesting.
Now, 40k is unrealistic AND dumb.

Pfft, next you are going to tell me that idiots writing codex's for GW are breaking the fluff by inventing "NEW" Marines, or having Grey Knights slaughter Sisters of Battle to soak their weapons in their blood...which somehow makes them better.

Or hell, you are going to tell me that the biggest baddest ork since the Orkz invaded Terra was defeated by some rando Space Wolf Captain.

Breton wrote:
Make that Ignore Look Out Sir! and Mortal wounds on somethings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
12” range too. Don’t forget that!
And on a squishy T3 5++ body.

With Look Out Sir protection of it's own and exploding 2+'s on non-character models. Other snipers don't have near the utility shooting at "just dudes". All those armies can also counter battery the other snipers. Not so much the Character Kelermorph.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SecondTime wrote:
I lost a couple smash captains to them because I'm bad a storm shield rolls, but I didn't find them to be that outrageous. I guess anything that takes out spess mahreen heroes gets the evil eye.

As I and others mentioned, the Space Marines aren't the ones especially vulnerable. Any of T5+. T4+ and 3+ armor or a T4+ and 4++ with 5+ wounds is fairly safe with average rolls. The more of that they have, the safer they are. The guard commander is T3 4W and 5++ - none of the above, which is why he's a red mist. The Farseer is T3 5W with a 4++ which is why they're borderline.

If you get LOS on the Keller, you’re deep striking 9” away. If you can’t screen important stuff 3”, you need to get better.

If you want to mitigate the 12” range, you DS at 3” with a stratagem. So you have no protection.

And this unit will not, on average, kill a SM Captain.

The Kelermorph is mediocre at best, and as far as I can tell it just upsets people that there's a decent chance you can pop an important character, although at the consequence of giving an incredibly easy to kill character and a bunch of CP.

Breton wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Guard commanders don't much matter, though. They are very , very cheap. IG can afford redundancy.

You only get one warlord.

And they're needed for the Voice of Command.

This is true, but surely it's also easier to focus on protecting a single HQ? The Kelermorph only has a 12" range, after all.

Though even if a guard HQ does die, the GSC player is still spending 80pts to kill a character that costs less than half that.

I don't know, maybe I'm in the minority, but when I build an IG army my philosophy is 'everything is expendable'. No unit is the cornerstone to my strategy. If a unit dies, another will take its place. If I lose an entire flank, I'll redeploy my centre squads. I a character - even my warlord - dies, then another will (at least figuratively) take command.

Don't get me wrong - I understand full well that it can suck to have a character - especially a favourite character - sniped out from under you. However, at the same time, I simply don't plan around a T3 5++ character surviving.

Especially when Astartes have snipers that don't need LoS. Even the Tau can't do that.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Brandon Sanderson had a great lecture on why changing the rules of a universe TOO MUCH from what we live in causes problems.

I don't think you get what I am saying.
Previously, 40k was unrealistic AND characterful, unique and interesting.
Now, 40k is unrealistic AND dumb.

Pfft, next you are going to tell me that idiots writing codex's for GW are breaking the fluff by inventing "NEW" Marines, or having Grey Knights slaughter Sisters of Battle to soak their weapons in their blood...which somehow makes them better.

Or hell, you are going to tell me that the biggest baddest ork since the Orkz invaded Terra was defeated by some rando Space Wolf Captain.

Ragnar wasn't just some random character man. for feth's sake this has been explained eneugh when SOTB came out that if you don't know that by now I can only assume you're willfully ignoring that

BrianDavion wrote:
Ragnar wasn't just some random character man. for feth's sake this has been explained eneugh when SOTB came out that if you don't know that by now I can only assume you're willfully ignoring that

Don't you understand Space Wolves are exactly the same as Codex: Space Marines, your unique units should be genericized so other factions can claim that design space, and your special characters aren't special because nobody read those books.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Ragnar wasn't just some random character man. for feth's sake this has been explained eneugh when SOTB came out that if you don't know that by now I can only assume you're willfully ignoring that

Don't you understand Space Wolves are exactly the same as Codex: Space Marines, your unique units should be genericized so other factions can claim that design space, and your special characters aren't special because nobody read those books.

yeah I mean Ragnar's only appered in 7 novels, was the first space wolf character and has been the posterboy for space wolves from day 1! he's totally a nobody!