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"When this unit is selected" the Hammerfall bunker can "target and resolve" against all eligible targets. One would assume a character protected by Look Out Sir is not an eligible target. One would assume a character not so protected is a viable target. Everyone with me so far? Anyone disagree? I think that's the way it's supposed to work, but I don't think it's QUITE the way they worded it and there's a case to be made on "eligible"

What happens when a character protected by Look Out Sir loses the Look Out Sir to the Hammerfall bunker? i.e. say Sicarius is getting tired of waiting for around for the old man to move on, and sends a bunker after Marneus Calgar while he's standing next to a Victrix Guard. The Bunker shoots the Victrix Guard, The Victrix Guard was caught staring at his shoelace and eats a Heavy Bolter Round to the face (rolls a 1 for armor save), and dies. Marneus Calgar is now DEFINITELY an eligible target. Can he be shot?

I think not. Targets are determined before any shots are fired, thats how the shooting phase works.

You declare all targets first, before rolling for shooting. At that point a character is still protected by look out sir, and is not an eligible target. The bunker works like every other unit with multiple guns.

 p5freak wrote:
You declare all targets first, before rolling for shooting. At that point a character is still protected by look out sir, and is not an eligible target. The bunker works like every other unit with multiple guns.

Except you don't declare targets with the bunker. Or theoretically you declare everything everywhere, and then resolve. Is it like a vehicle that can declare against stuff outside of engagement range and then only shoot if they kill off everything in engagement range first?

Breton wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
You declare all targets first, before rolling for shooting. At that point a character is still protected by look out sir, and is not an eligible target. The bunker works like every other unit with multiple guns.

Except you don't declare targets with the bunker. Or theoretically you declare everything everywhere, and then resolve. Is it like a vehicle that can declare against stuff outside of engagement range and then only shoot if they kill off everything in engagement range first?

I suggest you read the defensive array rule from the bunker. It clearly says in your shooting phase, each time this model is selected to shoot, with its flamer, or heavy bolter, it can target and resolve attacks against every eligible enemy unit. It follows shooting phase rules, like every other unit.

Even if you disagree with all targets being selected first normally (which as p5freak outlined is wrong anyway), you're restricted here by the Hammerfall's own wording of "when this unit is selected".
Was the character eligible to be targeted when the Hammerfall was first selected?

Breton wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
You declare all targets first, before rolling for shooting. At that point a character is still protected by look out sir, and is not an eligible target. The bunker works like every other unit with multiple guns.

Except you don't declare targets with the bunker. Or theoretically you declare everything everywhere, and then resolve. Is it like a vehicle that can declare against stuff outside of engagement range and then only shoot if they kill off everything in engagement range first?

That isn’t normally an option, so no. Look Out Sir and Engagement Range function differently.

And for my next trick, anyone thought of putting the bunkers into Strategic Reserve and then dropping them on a side table edge?


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 Super Ready wrote:
Even if you disagree with all targets being selected first normally (which as p5freak outlined is wrong anyway), you're restricted here by the Hammerfall's own wording of "when this unit is selected".
Was the character eligible to be targeted when the Hammerfall was first selected?

Depends on your definition of eligible. I looked in the target selection, and it only really defines "eligible" for units that can shoot, not units they can shoot at. Its not like this sort of thing is going to come up very often, if at all, but I'm having fun with it. They added something new, and as usual didn't really think it through. We used to play MtG this way too. We didn't play to win per se, we played to make the people watching ask what the hell we were doing and how that worked.

Breton wrote:
Depends on your definition of eligible. I looked in the target selection, and it only really defines "eligible" for units that can shoot, not units they can shoot at.

That's not true though I'm afraid. There is a reference to the term under 'Select Targets':
"Only enemy units can be chosen as the target for an attack. In order to target an enemy unit... (blah blah blah)... If there are no eligible targets for a weapon then that weapon cannot shoot."
This makes it pretty clear that that section of the rules (from "Only enemy units" onwards) determines what an eligible target is.

Also, I'm agreed with the other interpretation that you need to resolve all targeting before making any attacks. Nothing in the Hammerfall's rules breaks this restriction, also under 'Select Targets':
"When a unit shoots, you must select the target unit(s) for all of the ranged weapons its models are making attacks with before any attacks are resolved."
Couple this with the first line from Look Out Sir:
"Models cannot target a unit that... (blah blah blah)."

Its not like this sort of thing is going to come up very often, if at all, but I'm having fun with it. They added something new, and as usual didn't really think it through. We used to play MtG this way too. We didn't play to win per se, we played to make the people watching ask what the hell we were doing and how that worked.

By all means, house rule this if you want? But that's nowhere near the same as having an actual RAW argument for this, so it's a stretch to claim it's broken.

And for my next trick, anyone thought of putting the bunkers into Strategic Reserve and then dropping them on a side table edge?

Now, this... this works. Everything I'm seeing under Strategic Reserves only restricts what you can do in the turn you arrive, mostly things the Hammerfall can't do anyway. Meanwhile there's no requirement to be able to move, in order to be set up in the way that Strategic Reserves describes.

Yeah I've seen the Strategic Reserves thing discussed. It is currently legal, but I would put good money on it being FAQd pretty soon.

Rule book FAQ forbids placing Fortifications in Strategic Reserves.

 alextroy wrote:
Rule book FAQ forbids placing Fortifications in Strategic Reserves.

Indeed, this was one of the first things "discovered" on the launch of 9th and evidently even GW agrees it's silly. No deep striking Imperial Bastions for you, no sir!

I keep coming back to the idea they just don’t want to sell bunkers. Not any of this but the 3” thing. I get it was easier and lazier to just repeat the units in a transport that doesn’t have room to get out thing, but you’ve had time to make decisions on that. The fortifications can be dead before deployment. Imagine seeing a bunch of missions that say you can’t deploy more than 50 models for this mission. They would have done better with a rule that lets you fudge fort deployment... like you may shift one terrain piece up to 3” per fort or something.

Or just let you remove terrain in your own deployment zone.

 Stux wrote:
Or just let you remove terrain in your own deployment zone.

I wouldn't go that far. 3 Bunkers Dead Center (relative to the objectives) all in a line would be a little OTT. Shift one piece 3" per bunker should get you room to deploy. Or move piece(s) up to 3" to get a spot. Some way of letting them deploy without letting you rearrange everything to create a murderer's row.

I'm not sure its OTT. You could do the same with 3 Gladiators for similar points and durability. The Bunker is still removed when its destroyed, just like a vehicle.

 Stux wrote:
I'm not sure its OTT. You could do the same with 3 Gladiators for similar points and durability. The Bunker is still removed when its destroyed, just like a vehicle.

3 Gladiators aren't shooting at every unit that needs to get in the same 24 inch radius. You get able to stick a wall of bunkers front and center, you're covering almost the entire deployment zone. You're going to get 9 shots at just about every unit he has for a long long time.

Breton wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I'm not sure its OTT. You could do the same with 3 Gladiators for similar points and durability. The Bunker is still removed when its destroyed, just like a vehicle.

3 Gladiators aren't shooting at every unit that needs to get in the same 24 inch radius. You get able to stick a wall of bunkers front and center, you're covering almost the entire deployment zone. You're going to get 9 shots at just about every unit he has for a long long time.

Again though, if there is so little terrain this is possible then you really dont have enough terrain.

 Stux wrote:
Or just let you remove terrain in your own deployment zone.

There's even less if you remove it.


No, the best solution is some sort of middle ground. Being able to fudge just enough for a/each bunker one at a time, and something to (usually) keep all the bunkers seperated. A Narrative game with Imperial Fists using three of these bad boys all in a line vs Iron Warriors with their three (once they come out) or some sort of Attackers/Defenders Scenario properly set up and known ahead of time would be fun, but I think a generic pickup game with three of them all tripling down on the same 1000 out of 2500ish square inches of table space is a little extreme.

GW should be aiming for easy to place, but hard to place together, and no way does part of your army die before the first turn.

For my campaign we created a rule that you determine defender and attacker and pick deployment zones right after placing objective markers, and then we deploy fortifications, more than 3" away from them. Afterwards we start creating the table as normal.

For house rules, always keep in mind that anything that works for the bunker must also work for a daemon player walling you in with 9 nurgle trees - the original reason for this ruling.