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I was thinking of adding some mark 7 and other classic units for my Ultramarines Third Company. Tried looking for YouTube Battle Reports with Terminators being used but haven’t seen them yet. Are these decent or a little underwhelming?

Also I have the Ultramarines and a smaller force of Raptors (RG successor) which are more stealth based with Phobos and such. Would firstborn in general and Terminators be more useful. Hobbling wise I am a little torn as I always wanted a Raptors army back in the day and would like that to look as I imagined it then. But then, I ve got a lot more Ultramarines.

Just while I am here: is there a possibility GW would do a new kit of the Terminators? I know Chaos just got a new one. They’re still passable even if the legs are just a little bit off.

Terminators have so far failed to stop Judgement Day quite a lot of times. Nor kill Sarra Cinner. So their are not that good.

Terminators are really quite good. The stratagem that gives them +1 to hit is good. Shields and 2+ armour is pure gass. Thry are slow and compete with other sinular units. Like the prinaris dudes.

They are even better for SW who have a very good unit in them.

I've been running a squad of 5 with cyclone missile launcher, 2 with chainfist 2 with powerfists in my list for a few games alongside anywhere between 3 and 6 boltstorm aggressors.

In my experience, the terminators generally hang around longer than the aggressors (thanks to 2+ save and 5++ invul).

I think the aggressors might do a bit more damage than the terminators (especially in combat), but not heaps more. They are certainly more mobile once a target is dealt with (if they have survived).

I play RG successors, so often aggressors are doing master of ambush shenanigans, wipe something out then advance to somewhere else and bog down that spot.

In contrast the terminators are more teleport in, kick some ass, then dominate the area. I use them to secure mid-board objectives, or deepstrike near a big threat and bog it down.

So, for me, I think the terminators are probably marginally better than the aggressor, but *only* because more of them survive longer.

The new version of fury of the first only makes them better, as it can give +1 to hit in both shooting and combat phases. I find that strat makes up for the lower volume of shooting and melee attacks and can tilt damage output back towards the terminators.

That said, the last two games my opponents put more into wiping out the terminators than aggressors. In particular, in the last game my opponent (15 year veteran and winner of many local tournaments) put an entire 5-man eradicator squad into wiping out 5 full-strength terminators that had just teleported in and taken an objective off him (shooting + successful charge and melee) when he could have also targeted a venerable dreadnought sitting with 2 eliminators on an objective or 5 aggressors sitting within charge range of another objective he was holding (he had positioned them with good firing line visibility). Read into that what you will. I see it as they are either recognising the threat or the terminators have become a bit of a carnifax distraction with teeth.

Can't comment on assault terminators, as I don't have any and hence don't run them, but a buddy of mine does and he thinks they are the bees knees.

Almost everything with 3 wounds is pretty good. It's amazing how long it took GW to get terminators mostly right. 25 yrs. No, they weren't good in second because weapons went to -6.

But the save was 3+ on 2D6 which made them surprisingly resilient against those -6 mods. Saving on 9+ is slightly better than 5++, and much better against anything else. Of course they still couldn't make saves vs bolters which the -1 mod.

hangnailnz wrote:
But the save was 3+ on 2D6 which made them surprisingly resilient against those -6 mods. Saving on 9+ is slightly better than 5++, and much better against anything else. Of course they still couldn't make saves vs bolters which the -1 mod.

For what they charged, 9+ on 2d6 was pretty crap. The real problem was that shuriken cannons were -3 and spammed a gakload of S6 shots on a popup platform.

Just fought a list of 22 salamander terminators at a 1000 pts and got tabled with what would normally have been a very nasty IG army. 3 wounds and a 2+ save is very difficult to drop, and salamanders even have an additional ignoring ap1 on top, not that it made much difference in my game. I outnumbered him over 3 to one with infantry packing plasma and flamers, had Bullgryn, and even a manticore and a demolisher, barely killed half his army. Granted I made a couple bad moves and may have had slightly cold dice but I was still very pressed with how the terminators did.

I think they definitely have a place in modern lists, just wish my chaos ones had gotten the third wound too. They're tough, put out lots of stormbolter shots, and are decent in melee too. They're really good at locking down an area and kicking everything else out. Fighting 20 of them and two characters at a 1,000 felt like what marines sound like in the books. Even full Demolisher and manticore volleys would kill 2 or 3 and that's it. I don't think a pure terminators army would be the best idea at 2000pts but I definitely would be happy bringing a squad or two in a regular army.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Just fought a list of 22 salamander terminators at a 1000 pts and got tabled with what would normally have been a very nasty IG army. 3 wounds and a 2+ save is very difficult to drop, and salamanders even have an additional ignoring ap1 on top, not that it made much difference in my game. I outnun

I think they definitely have a place in modern lists, just wish my chaos ones had gotten the third wound too. They're tough, put out lots of stormbolter shots, and are decent in melee too. They're really good at locking down an area and kicking everything else out. Fighting 20 of them and two characters at a 1,000 felt like what marines sound like in the books. Even full Demolisher and manticore volleys would kill 2 or 3 and that's it. I don't think a pure terminators army would be the best idea at 2000pts but I definitely would be happy bringing a squad or two in a regular army.

You think Salamander Terminators are especially tough? The Deathwing Terminators are outright broken..... They have in-built Transhuman Physiology It would be almost outright GG if facing full Deathwing army with a warlord granting everyone nearby Obsec in 1000pts game.
Unless you play Harliquins I bet.

That's a different problem. If you a lot of -1, the salamanders are way worse.

3W models is why thunderhammer is still king.

SW melee termies were already good in 8th, they're amazing now.

When you say melee SW terminstors ir is a bit misleading. As you can combine their loadout freely. (I asule this is correct in the new codex as well.) So you can have say some with shields and powerweapon or bolter to soak up damage. And aome with real melee weapons. And then to topp things og every 5th member can have the flamer/assault/missile launcher. Quite strong.

Yeah the dark angel build in transhuman is quite good. Hopefullly that sticks around after the index.

I do not know about the other SM. Blood angel have so many other good option with good mobilaty. Sanguine guard comes to mind. Dark Templar re-rolling charges sounds nice.

I second the fact that Dark Angel Deathwing terminators can be pushed further than other chapters: in-build Transhuman messes up with the enemy target priority (making them a bad unit to aim antitank to... you waste your higher S, and you use AP up to -2/-3, over is wasted).
But what pushes them over is more the ability to mix assault and shooty equipment into a single squad and, even more important, the 5+ FnP banner (other chapters can use an Apothecary, not the same effectiveness, but works). Other freebies like the psychic protection are interesting but not so relevant.
On the other hand, the DA have the Deathwing Knights that, traditionally, have been amongst the few Terminator squads worth their point, so if you need a melee threat I don't think standard Terminator can compare favorably. But as a versatile tool to bring firepower and threat in mid-board, there is little better than an iconic Terminator squad.

I don't know how effectively the SW can leverage their equipment selection with the new rules. You either load up the squad too much up to the point where it's a point sink, or I find difficult to choose a better generic tactical equipment then Storm Bolter + Powerfirst. Considering SW don't need other melee option, maybe a squad with support ranged weapons or heavy flamer to leverage the interception stratagem in the middle of the board?

I think they are a good unit but the other/generic chapters of SM would have to leverage a little their Chapter tactics (or Stratagems) to have good results: BA for example would probably love dual Lighting Claws for the extra +2 attack and the full reroll to wound with +1, but I don't see for them much use of Thunder Hammer unless you're surgical and your enemy got some big scary T8 target.

In general I think they're better than the Gravis. Invulnerable is invaluable.

 Niiai wrote:
When you say melee SW terminstors ir is a bit misleading. As you can combine their loadout freely. (I asule this is correct in the new codex as well.)

I meant that a pure CC unit was (and still is) very good because it had nice damage potential for an interesting points cost. If you start adding combi and/or heavy weapons the unit becomes ultra-expensive, making it pretty mediocre overall.

Exspensive, I would not say so. While the cyclone missule launcher is 25, it is much cheaper then a long fang missile launcher at 33. And you have two missiles. That is 66 points for long fangs. (You loose a bit of blast vs hordes.) A heavy flamer is 5, an assault cannon is 10. It does not break the bank to toss one of those into your melee terminator squad. It ads a lot of threath at the cost of 'one arm.'

Biggest problem with Terminators is speed. Good luck getting their fat butts up the board in time to have an impact. Granted, they aren't the worthlessly slow Centurions, but they are still piss poor at moving without getting a good teleport, or a transport. Close combat Terminators are powerful, but slow. Load them up with ACs and SBs and let them tear things up at 12-24"

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Biggest problem with Terminators is speed. Good luck getting their fat butts up the board in time to have an impact. Granted, they aren't the worthlessly slow Centurions, but they are still piss poor at moving without getting a good teleport, or a transport. Close combat Terminators are powerful, but slow. Load them up with ACs and SBs and let them tear things up at 12-24"

Stormbolters aren't particularly fearsome against heavy infantry, however. AP0 is a bigger downside in 9th. Also, T5 seems a lot more common.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Biggest problem with Terminators is speed. Good luck getting their fat butts up the board in time to have an impact. Granted, they aren't the worthlessly slow Centurions, but they are still piss poor at moving without getting a good teleport, or a transport. Close combat Terminators are powerful, but slow. Load them up with ACs and SBs and let them tear things up at 12-24"

I think the big thing is area denial and bullying units off of objectives or the center of the board. Raven guard could scout them up for example, black Templar reroll charges making them easier to get a charge out of deepstrike, Blood Angels get the +1 to charge and strats, etc. There's ways to make them work.

I was planning on a fluffier Black Templar list but after seeing the Salamander terminators in action I actually don't feel too stupid for running a 10 man squad of tactical terminators with 2 missile racks and the relic BT sword on the sarge. They're not going to be the beefiest melee unit around but I feel a brick of 10 landing in the opponents backline or on an objective will work for me. Between the stormbolters and the missiles they're decently shooty, all those fists will do some work, and there's a few good strats to make them a pain to remove. All in I feel terminators finally do what they're supposed to for the first time I can think of in 40k.

Right, but don't Terminators get auto-Bolter Drill still? So they are doing 4 shots per model, times 8, 24 shots, then double shoot. Do DW storm bolters get SIA or did that get nerfed? Because thats still a lot of S4 Dakka to meet you on teleporting into your back lines.

Granted it's not Auto-bolter Gauntlets of Aggressors, but still, it's an ugly thing to do against chaff. And the AC's should be getting a damage buff. They fire bigger rounds than the HBs for fluffs sake.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Biggest problem with Terminators is speed. Good luck getting their fat butts up the board in time to have an impact. Granted, they aren't the worthlessly slow Centurions, but they are still piss poor at moving without getting a good teleport, or a transport. Close combat Terminators are powerful, but slow. Load them up with ACs and SBs and let them tear things up at 12-24"

I think the big thing is area denial and bullying units off of objectives or the center of the board. Raven guard could scout them up for example, black Templar reroll charges making them easier to get a charge out of deepstrike, Blood Angels get the +1 to charge and strats, etc. There's ways to make them work.

I was planning on a fluffier Black Templar list but after seeing the Salamander terminators in action I actually don't feel too stupid for running a 10 man squad of tactical terminators with 2 missile racks and the relic BT sword on the sarge. They're not going to be the beefiest melee unit around but I feel a brick of 10 landing in the opponents backline or on an objective will work for me. Between the stormbolters and the missiles they're decently shooty, all those fists will do some work, and there's a few good strats to make them a pain to remove. All in I feel terminators finally do what they're supposed to for the first time I can think of in 40k.

Yes, you need actual specialized weapons to remove 3W 2+ targets. Not just "roll some 1s for me mother$%^&er!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right, but don't Terminators get auto-Bolter Drill still? So they are doing 4 shots per model, times 8, 24 shots, then double shoot. Do DW storm bolters get SIA or did that get nerfed? Because thats still a lot of S4 Dakka to meet you on teleporting into your back lines.

Granted it's not Auto-bolter Gauntlets of Aggressors, but still, it's an ugly thing to do against chaff. And the AC's should be getting a damage buff. They fire bigger rounds than the HBs for fluffs sake.

Yes, but even that many shots does almost nothing to enemy power armor in cover. Example: By default, it kills around three immortals outside of cover with 48 shots, one of which reanimates. This gets worse vs gravis armor and other 2+ targets. You've got that one turn of -1 from tactical doctrine I suppose. They are significantly more dangerous in CQC, which is fine if you are parked on an objective.

I am reading Helsreach right now, and I've never wanted to play an all black Space Marine list so bad. Black Templars are super cool thematically, but are cruelly overlooked in the rules department.


(GW Staff Meeting)

CALL TO ORDER! What do our brother writers feel the humans desire in a Space Marine force?

Sire, we have many requests for Black Templars and Legion of the Damned...

ULTRA MARINES and IRON HANDS IT IS THEN!

My leige, I said Black te-

NEXT WE DO SPACE WOLVES AND DEATHWATCH!

SW and DW and 1 and 2 on my squat list. I hate everything about SW so much. I can keep my mouth shut in a match, but not the look of contempt off my face.

Well from one perspective it makes sence to do SW and Deathwatch first. Both are higly specualised and do poorly when thrusted into a new SM codex. In theory at least. I actually think the index pdf did a very good job. SW has been one of the least good SM armies during 8th. Nice to see some love. Death Watch arguably are more unique, so nice to give love to the weardo armies.

But back on topic terminators of all stripes seems good. I do not know about characters in terminatour armour?

SecondTime wrote:
SW and DW and 1 and 2 on my squat list. I hate everything about SW so much. I can keep my mouth shut in a match, but not the look of contempt off my face.

I agree, Shadow Warrior was a horribly racist and offensive game. But Space Furries are easily the dumbest idea GW has ever concocted. Space Vikings with Axes who love to party and fight? I'm right there. But now they are some weird form of Wolverine in power armor, and you've lost me. Greyfax was right, burn em all.

So what is it with cataphractii teminators? They don't excist anymore?
I bought 5 of them when i started a small BA army because i liked the look of them more then the assualt termies with the weird helmets.
I didn't use the cataphractii much because i learned there were better units but still. Now i can't find them in battlescribe anymore.
They are 30k only now?

I did proxied them for assualt termies with shield and hammers.
Would you still use the shield and hammer termies or would you switch to others now?

Krull wrote:
So what is it with cataphractii teminators? They don't excist anymore?

They're part of the "Relic Terminator Squad" datasheet, alongside Tartaros.

Krull wrote:
So what is it with cataphractii teminators? They don't excist anymore?
I bought 5 of them when i started a small BA army because i liked the look of them more then the assualt termies with the weird helmets.
I didn't use the cataphractii much because i learned there were better units but still. Now i can't find them in battlescribe anymore.
They are 30k only now?

I did proxied them for assualt termies with shield and hammers.
Would you still use the shield and hammer termies or would you switch to others now?

Forget battlescribe. Always go with the codex. They are now "relic terminators". Use that entry, whether battlescribe has it or not.

SecondTime wrote:

Krull wrote:
So what is it with cataphractii teminators? They don't excist anymore?
I bought 5 of them when i started a small BA army because i liked the look of them more then the assualt termies with the weird helmets.
I didn't use the cataphractii much because i learned there were better units but still. Now i can't find them in battlescribe anymore.
They are 30k only now?

I did proxied them for assualt termies with shield and hammers.
Would you still use the shield and hammer termies or would you switch to others now?

Forget battlescribe. Always go with the codex. They are now "relic terminators". Use that entry, whether battlescribe has it or not.

Forget Battlescribe? I will never understand peoples infatuation with hating on a free product that has done more to help people in the hobby than GW ever has. Books are expensive and hard to get for some people, also some people have difficulty with the complexity of the dexes. Battlescribe makes this a lot simpler and easier for people. Why do people hate it?

I don't hate it. It's just not an authority. I always ask my opponent for the codex, not battlescribe. Because battlescribe isn't the rules. And they make mistakes. I mean GW makes mistakes, too, but there is only one set of rules. I pissed off a lot of FW users that way. No codex, no FW usable against me because we don't have the rules.

So if a player doesn't have the dex do you just refuse to play them?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So if a player doesn't have the dex do you just refuse to play them?

They can't use the units they don't have the codex for. Most tournaments enforce this as well. Otherwise, there is no way to resolve disputes. Because Battlescribe isn't the rules. Unfortunate for sure, but its GW.